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You are here: MacNN Forums > Software - Troubleshooting and Discussion > macOS > Dramatic Speed Jump (no joke)

Dramatic Speed Jump (no joke)
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krove
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Apr 11, 2001, 11:15 PM
 
Ok, bare with my story...

After setting up my first user on OS X as "krove" and using it for about 2 weeks, I read that installing the dev. tools would possibly speed up things a bit, so I installed them. After that I saw a bit of an increase but nothing to boast about. After logging onto the "root" account, never used before now, I saw a HUGE and NOTICEABLE speed increase in launching apps, finder gui (animations of minimizing windows are smoother and clicking on a folder in column view (causing the window to scroll sideways, revealing the contents of folder) went a lot smoother/faster.

I decided to test further by running a set of apps (mail, omniweb, son of weather grok, and iTunes) under root. After staring @ the Process Viewer's %CPU and with all those apps idling, the highest I saw was a few percentage points (1-2%). Running the same set of apps under my original login, krove, resulted in an idling of 15-25%, despite just letting it sit there.

One last test: Selecting the contents of this Text Box in OmniWeb and selecting "Make Sticky..." from the Services menu took all of about 3 seconds to open Stickies under root. When logged in as krove, it took about 15 seconds! All in all, wow: major differences for various actions!

After uncovering this little anomaly, I wonder what exactly was causing the speed-up under a user I had never logged in before. Ideas:

1. A user's profile can become bloated and disorganized slowing down processes while logged in as that user (i.e. my krove user in the case above). I have no idea what would cause this "bloating" of a user's profile (perhaps unruly preferences).

2. The dev. tools optimization helps newer users as opposed to older ones that may have already used the objects/apps that it is linking and optimizing.

Any other ideas? Can anyone else confirm this (run the optimization/install developer tools and log into a new/unused account)?

I'd really rather not have to create another user to take advantage of these speed jumps I've noticed, so further explanation as to why my root account is so much faster might lead to a solution for fixing/helping my krove account. BTW, I've been running OS X full time, and I love it!

krove

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CharlesS
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Apr 11, 2001, 11:30 PM
 
I know you don't want to do this, but why don't you create a new user account and see if it experiences the same speed-up. Otherwise, we can't know if your krove account is bloated, or if there's something wrong with OS X that makes non-root accounts slow.

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havannas
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Apr 11, 2001, 11:39 PM
 
I'm not sure if this is the case but one word pops into mind: PERMISSIONS.

When logged in as a standard user the system must check to see if you as a user have permission to access this file, that app, or even certain hardware.

Perhaps once you log in as root it simply performs none of these permission tests because as root you can do whatever the f*ck you please. System folder move to trash.... SURE! go for it! The system doesn't care you're GOD now. I have no idea if this is so, but it could explain speed ups.
     
Ghoser777
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Apr 11, 2001, 11:46 PM
 
And if ur not conencted to a network, logging in as root isn't necessary a "bad" thing. U have the same rights u did while u were using OS9, and most of us could handle that okay. OF course, launching random installers/apps that u don't know much about while root would be bad, u could simply logout and in as another admin account to protect utr system folder.

Speaking of which... U know what I've come to the conclusion about - it really doesn't matter what ur logged in if a "bad" person wants to fark with ur system. They can delelte ur home directory, essentially, if they want to. All ur protecting is ur system folder, which isn't really hard to recreate (install process much shorter that linux) and not all that essential. The only thing on my computer I need protecting are documents, not system files. The best way to protect those? Back them up - another server, another drive, etc.

F-bacher
     
krove  (op)
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Apr 11, 2001, 11:54 PM
 
After creating another new user, there are still speed improvements in processor usage, aqua interface, launching apps, etc. I really can't see how permissions could use up so much of the processor while IDLING.

Just to note: I am on a network (dhcp), iMac DV 400MHz, 512 MB RAM.

krove

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gorgonzola
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Apr 12, 2001, 12:09 AM
 
krove:

Could you run some tests with a stopwatch or something concerning root vs a brand new user at app launch time, etc? I will do so tomorrow if I can find a stopwatch and post back.

By the way, if someone is reading this and thinking of using root, just don't. Something goes wrong when you're in as root ... I guarantee you'll get laughed off every support forum on the web. It's just really dangerous if you don't know what you're doing, since all your apps run as root as well, and it just gets very nasty. This doesn't really apply to *nixheads, as they know what they're doing, but if you don't know much about root -- ask before you use it. It can save you hours of annoyance.

gzl = someone who accidentally typed "sudo rm -rf ~" and kicked himself afterwards

(it was no biggie at all, but it definitely screws up X like crazy -- I had to wipe the drive, even a reinstall wouldn't do it. interesting to see it go nuts. Think unrecognizable app bundles, i.e. no apps at all!)

Anyway, I'll get back to you with some benchmarks if I can find that stopwatch.

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Scott_H
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Apr 12, 2001, 12:40 AM
 
I'm not sure if this is the case but one word pops into mind: PERMISSIONS.
I doubt that. Checking permissions take not time at all. There's just no way the system is taking a few seconds to check that stuff.
     
Chet Ript
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Apr 12, 2001, 01:41 AM
 
Hmm...I actually got results that were quite the opposite. Apps are actually launching faster in my user account than in root. Omniweb (1st launch) in root = 21 bounces, OW (1st launch) in user = 15 bounces. IE does the same thing 11bounces for root and 9 for user. Wierd. I wonder if it has to do with the prebinding thing I ran. Regardless these small speed ups are no substitute for Apple actually making OS X "really" faster. I don't want subtle speed increases....I want fast. I'm sure they will get there. I will be here playing with pretty icons. ohhhh! look at that one!
     
krove  (op)
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Apr 12, 2001, 02:10 AM
 
Well, not that I don't like Mac OS X and all, but I'm really growing tired of waiting and waiting and waiting...After watching my process viewer for a while, I noticed that the WindowServer--after switching apps, scrolling in OmniWeb, minimizing in the finder, or various other normal, everyday, common task--will jump up in % CPU and % Memory a great deal (huge if you have several applications open). Now if Mac OS X Server 2.0 is to have aqua...how will it fare dealing with database requests, filesharing with hundreds of users, and the like all while drawing windows, shadows, and transparensies? Consider this...

Perhaps if Apple just gave us a REAL platinum theme w/options for turning off anti-aliasing, windowshadows and the like. The WindowServer can still handle all the redraws of every Carbon/Cocoa window as it does - just minus all the frill. I have been running in OS X since March 24 rarely going back to OS 9 (DVD or a print job from Word every once in a while). I'm in OS 9 now and the scrolling in IE5 under OS 9 is a miracle after using OmniWeb or IE 5.1 Preview in OS X: scrolling and windowing in OS X is SLOW as hell compared to OS 9. Damn aqua and all its beauty: I want usability first (i.e. fast, quick redraws and scrolling) , then aetheics (i.e. auqa, shadows, anti-aliased text, transparencies). Anyone ever noticed what a DOG OmniWeb or IE5.1 are in OS X? Although I realize that much of it is in the interpretation of speed, but damn, OS 9 beats OS X in web scrolling (especially in these forums) any day.

Don't get me wrong, aqua is great and I can see ui benefits, but until it is sped up, Apple needs to fix this minor (sarcasm) oversight NOW!

krove

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dn15
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Apr 12, 2001, 03:02 AM
 
I'd been meaning to check some "bouncemarks" for my computer but just got around to it after reading this thread. It doesn't look like there's much difference.

Some background info: I've installed the developer tools and done that prebinding trick. I'm running Mac OS X "10.0" (aka 4K78) on an iMac DV (400 MHz, Lime/1999) with 192 MB of RAM. I figure this system is probably a good average since it's pretty well above the minimum requirement but it's not a 733 MHz G4 either.

The bounces are actually for a second launch, with no other applications running at the time. (I ran the program once, quit it, then counted the bounces on the second launch.)

Key:
- 'user' is my normal user account.
- 'root' is ... root.
- 'new' is an account that I created today and had previously only been used via telnet.

System Preferences
3 (all)

Internet Explorer
10 (all)

iCab
5 (all)

QT Player
6 for user and new, 5 for root

TextEdit
2 for user and new, 3 for root

Grab
2 (all)

iTunes
10 for user and root, 7 for new

Mail
3 (all)

Terminal
2 for user and new, 3 for root

Mozilla
7 for user and root, 6 for new

AppleWorks 6.1 Preview 2
6 (all)

Address Book
3 (all)

[This message has been edited by dn15 (edited 04-12-2001).]
     
jfischetti
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Apr 12, 2001, 01:00 PM
 
I too have noticed speed increases (genie, window launching) in Root.

It's noticibly profound because i noticed it very quickly once in a /root environment...

I will explore further ....




[This message has been edited by jfischetti (edited 04-12-2001).]
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plaidpjs
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Apr 12, 2001, 01:26 PM
 
Originally posted by krove:
Well, not that I don't like Mac OS X and all, but I'm really growing tired of waiting and waiting and waiting...After watching my process viewer for a while, I noticed that the WindowServer--after switching apps, scrolling in OmniWeb, minimizing in the finder, or various other normal, everyday, common task--will jump up in % CPU and % Memory a great deal (huge if you have several applications open). Now if Mac OS X Server 2.0 is to have aqua...how will it fare dealing with database requests, filesharing with hundreds of users, and the like all while drawing windows, shadows, and transparensies? Consider this...

Perhaps if Apple just gave us a REAL platinum theme w/options for turning off anti-aliasing, windowshadows and the like. The WindowServer can still handle all the redraws of every Carbon/Cocoa window as it does - just minus all the frill. I have been running in OS X since March 24 rarely going back to OS 9 (DVD or a print job from Word every once in a while). I'm in OS 9 now and the scrolling in IE5 under OS 9 is a miracle after using OmniWeb or IE 5.1 Preview in OS X: scrolling and windowing in OS X is SLOW as hell compared to OS 9. Damn aqua and all its beauty: I want usability first (i.e. fast, quick redraws and scrolling) , then aetheics (i.e. auqa, shadows, anti-aliased text, transparencies). Anyone ever noticed what a DOG OmniWeb or IE5.1 are in OS X? Although I realize that much of it is in the interpretation of speed, but damn, OS 9 beats OS X in web scrolling (especially in these forums) any day.

Don't get me wrong, aqua is great and I can see ui benefits, but until it is sped up, Apple needs to fix this minor (sarcasm) oversight NOW!

krove

Just one thing, Right and Honorable Mr. Krove, the interface will have no effect on user access to OS X Servers. Unless of course, it is being used as a desktop machine. otherwise, all of the calls and processes, for Web serving, file Sharing, Database activity, etc. happen below the interface level.



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Calli46
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Apr 12, 2001, 01:52 PM
 
Mr krove, like you I have been using OS X for a couple of weeks now. It has been super stable all that time on my machine, a 500 DP G4 with cable modem internet access. Like you, I find the UI pretty, but would rather have a faster OS than a nice OS.

There just should be an easy way to put off the elements of UI like transparencies, live resizing of windows, genie effects, etc. for those like me who wants a stable AND fast OS.

I hope Apple hear our laments and cries...


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iPond317
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Apr 12, 2001, 02:47 PM
 
I've had a similar experience with X myself. I created an account for myself and it seemed to be a bit faster than I expected. But then I decided to play around with the root account and root was MUCH faster than my main user account. Since then I've stopped using my account and have been using root for about 2 weeks now. I think now I'll try the Dev Tools and see if that gives me a speed boost!

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Millennium
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Apr 12, 2001, 03:02 PM
 
People, DO NOT DO THIS. the supposed speed gains you get by using root are far and away not worth the immensely increased possibility of system damage and security that's basically left in tatters.

I've said before that logging in as root is irresponsible, foolish, and dangerous. Let me reiterate this, because it cannot be stressed enough. The fact that these speed gains can't be verified is another reason to avoid this trick. And finally, if it can be done for root it can be done for other users. Wait for the updates. It does not matter how good you are with your machine; even sysadmins who've used Unices for over twenty years never log in as root, and these are people who know what they're doing better than any of us on these boards probably ever will. It's not an issue of the machine "not trusting you." It's an issue of common sense.
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bellers
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Apr 12, 2001, 03:25 PM
 
No, you seem to be missing a fundamental aspect of most UNIX-based systems:

Priority levels in process execution

What this means is that all processes run on a unix system have a priority (sometimes called a "niceness" number) associated with them. When you run something as a user, it gets run with a certain priority. Other more important processes (like system processes) can and will preempt your program from running.

However, root's processes can and will run with a higher priority level than a normal user's processes. This is to a large degree why logging in as root will inherently be a faster experience than logging in as a user.


For the acid test of this, try invoking a GUI program from the Terminal window as a regular user, then try prefacing the command 'sudo' to make it run as root. I think you will find running the program via sudo will yield the same performance increase as actually logging in as root.

     
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Apr 12, 2001, 03:31 PM
 
PRIORITIES ARE IGNORED BY THE MACH SCHEDULER AT THIS TIME.

(yes, this is a bug)
     
gorgonzola
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Apr 12, 2001, 03:40 PM
 
Angus_D is correct. Adjusting the nice level of apps really doesn't do anything, since all of this is routed through Mach, and Mach doesn't recognize nice's priority levels.

This will likely be fixed at some point, and then, using a utility such as IamBob's great Nicer will be able to boost important apps' performance. Sort of like allotting more memory to an app via classic Get Info; this just boosts the amount of allotted CPU power.

Nice is currently a placebo, and as Millenium said, root's perceived benefits are far outweighed by the damage you could do to the system. Go to a BSD support forum, and everyone will be helpful until you tell them you were in as root -- then they'll laugh in your face.

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sderaj
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Apr 13, 2001, 12:41 AM
 
...OR ANOTHER SPEED BOOST
Mac OS X is suppose to have protected memory am I right? So why not launch all your native applications (at least the ones you use the most). This way applications do not have to launch...

Right now I have seventeen naitibe Mac OS X applications open, and the ones that do not hide their windows, etc, I hid myself. So far no slow down but we will see...

Sure it is 'ghetto' speed boost but it works for not having to wait the time to launch an application lol
     
Apfhex
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Apr 13, 2001, 01:46 AM
 
Originally posted by krove:
Perhaps if Apple just gave us a REAL platinum theme w/options for turning off anti-aliasing, windowshadows and the like. The WindowServer can still handle all the redraws of every Carbon/Cocoa window as it does - just minus all the frill. I have been running in OS X since March 24 rarely going back to OS 9 (DVD or a print job from Word every once in a while). I'm in OS 9 now and the scrolling in IE5 under OS 9 is a miracle after using OmniWeb or IE 5.1 Preview in OS X: scrolling and windowing in OS X is SLOW as hell compared to OS 9. Damn aqua and all its beauty: I want usability first (i.e. fast, quick redraws and scrolling) , then aetheics (i.e. auqa, shadows, anti-aliased text, transparencies).
I agree completely! OS X looks nice and all, but I would MUCH rather have speed over looks. I do enjoy all of the other benefits it has to offer (especially the stability), but it's just too damn slow to get anything done. Once I trid to drag-and-drop about 300 MP3 files into an Audion playlist, and as a results the Finder was stuck in "spinning disc mode" (you know, the spinning CD that the cursor changes into) for about 5 minutes total. When it finally stopped, my files STILL hadn't been added to the playlist, and I actually had to force quite Audion. Now under OS 9, the same exact action would only take a matter of seconds!

So, although I really like X, I'm afraid I'll have to stick with 9.1 untill things speed up a little. Perhaps Apple will be smart and will add the ability to turn some of the eye candy off.

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JayJay1974
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Apr 13, 2001, 01:54 AM
 
I have noticed a speed up too. I thought it was just me, but it seems to be true. After messing around with some files, I lost my main user preferences. Now everytime I login as that user, all the preferences get recreated to defaults. Weird. But anyway, after creating a new user account, I noticed that the genie and all window drawing had become faster. Believe me, on my G3/425 7300, this difference was remarkable. Before the genie basically was click on minimise, wait, suddenly window in dock. No animation whatsoever. Now the genie is (relatively) smooth. Maybe if I create another 10 user accounts, the last one will be totally fluid??? Just kidding on the last line.

JJ
     
spectre
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Apr 13, 2001, 01:58 AM
 
"Once I trid to drag-and-drop about 300 MP3 files into an Audion playlist, and as a results the Finder was stuck in "spinning disc mode" (you know, the spinning CD that the cursor changes into) for about 5 minutes total."

Do you think this is slow because it looks good while doing it? I dont think this is slow because of Aqua, i'd say theres other reasons its slow.. The finder is quite lousy right now and it needs a ton of work, but I think when all is optimized (including quartz), we wont be bitching about wanting speed rather then looks, since we'll have both

argh.. its late at night and i'm tired. hopefully its not too obvious.. :0

Ben
     
gorgonzola
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Apr 13, 2001, 10:35 AM
 
The thing that makes me the most sad about the speed of OS X is that I read a review of Rhapsody Developer Release at Stepwise, and the entire article was about how this was the fastest software, bar none, that he had ever used. EVER.

He said apps just vanish when you quit them, nothing can lag the machine (even with heavy disk churning), and so on and so forth (some incredible stuff there). Makes you think what a huge lag Quartz is. I fear it will never be up to Rhapsody's level (that was on a Pentium 166 btw), but hopefully they can optimize it.

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Lord Kronos
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Apr 13, 2001, 10:53 AM
 
That's sad indeed.

There has got to be a way to make Quartz fast, if there isn't any Apple should get rid of it or design a lighter/better version.

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RichardS
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Apr 13, 2001, 12:14 PM
 
Any speed increase you find from installing the Dev Tools is because the dev tools installer pre-binds the drive.

The normal Mac OS X installer is supposed to do this, but it doesn't because of a bug (which will probably be fixed in 10.0.1). Check versiontracker for a program that will do this prebinding, giving you the speedup without having to install the dev tools.
     
sjendras
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Apr 13, 2001, 01:02 PM
 
For information about what (besides Quartz) makes OS X so slow, consider reading the thread "Why is classic so fast?"

sj
     
booboo
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Apr 13, 2001, 05:46 PM
 
Originally posted by gorgonzola:
The thing that makes me the most sad about the speed of OS X is that I read a review of Rhapsody Developer Release at Stepwise, and the entire article was about how this was the fastest software, bar none, that he had ever used. EVER.

He said apps just vanish when you quit them, nothing can lag the machine (even with heavy disk churning), and so on and so forth (some incredible stuff there). Makes you think what a huge lag Quartz is. I fear it will never be up to Rhapsody's level (that was on a Pentium 166 btw), but hopefully they can optimize it.

Anyone have any more info on Rhapsody? Any way of using its Finder in place of OS-X's?

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Millennium
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Apr 13, 2001, 05:56 PM
 
One thing that I think may have helped the Rhapsody DRs' speed was the older kernel. Rhapsody used Mach 2.5, which is different from Darwin, but could well have been more optimized since it was in development for much longer (by contrast, Darwin's Mach 3.0 kernel is more akin to what was used in MkLinux, which never saw anything near the optimization Apple's "official" operating systems got). In addition, they used the more mature (but much more expensive) Display PostScript imaging model.

The interesting thing about DPS is that Quartz should, at least in theory, be able to be faster, since it doesn't have the overhead of the entire PostScript language like DPS does. This offers a ray of hope: Quartz can be made faster, given time. So can Darwin. Unfortunately, time isn't something Apple has too much of.
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Big Mac
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Apr 13, 2001, 06:04 PM
 
Originally posted by JayJay1974:
[SNIP] Believe me, on my G3/425 7300, this difference was remarkable. Before the genie basically was click on minimise, wait, suddenly window in dock. No animation whatsoever. Now the genie is (relatively) smooth. Maybe if I create another 10 user accounts, the last one will be totally fluid??? Just kidding on the last line.

JJ
Please forgive me if I'm reading the above incorrectly, but the poster seems to indicate he is using a 7300 w/G3 upgrade card. Is this the case? Is anyone successfully using OS X on a G2 machine? Even though OS X runs on my iBook, OS X support for G2s was a passion of mine at one point; I would love to know what kind of success people have had with it.

[This message has been edited by Big Mac (edited 04-13-2001).]

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Lord Kronos
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Apr 13, 2001, 06:06 PM
 
Millennium, in your opinion, why is OS X 'slow' ? Is it because of Quartz or not ?

I don't know anything about Quartz, and I'd like to understand what's going wrong with OS X...

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