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Catholics
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so here is a topic starter....
what does everyone think about the catholic denomination???
I think that it is a horrible denomintation. Its past actions make it into an institution that should not be considered holy by any stretch of the imagination. here are my reasons
1) Purgatory- this is never mentioned in the bible but the catholic church made it up to sell their famous 'indulgences'
2) Indulgences - nuff said
3) Their huge cathedrals - poor people have to give 10 percent of their income so that the pope can add on to his cathedral in rome?? is this really worth a child starving for
4) The inquisition - convert and give up everything you believe in or we will torture you and eventually kill you
5) Count Ugulo- Italian count in the 15th century ... he and his children were locked in a room so that they all starved to death... and the count had to deal with the fact that he could not save his children.... and who locked him up??? you got it... a catholic bishop
6) Catholic church's platform on non involvement during the Nazi Holocaust
more reasons or defences... lets go
phang
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As a Lutheran, I have been taught only to pity RCs- not slam them.
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Why does any thread involving Christianity sooner or later come round to the Inquisition or the Crusades?
Thanks for cutting to the chase good and early.
FS
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the key word is CATHOLIC... i am not bashing christianity... it just takes people to turn a good idea like christianity into something like catholicism
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Well, OK, I accept that. I just didn't want your inquisition reference to drag the thread down into a well-you-did-this-oh-yeah?-well-YOU-did-THAT! thread.
So what about Catholicism? It's more like a social philosophy implemented as a religion than a religion itself. It's somewhat self-perpetuating. It's very socially cohesive, much more so than protestantism.
My main problem with the Catholic community is that here in Scotland, they have somehow engineered it so that they have their catholic-oriented education paid for by the state.
This leads us to the absurd result that small towns with barely enough kids for one school have to have two - one for the catholics, one for everyone else.
The authorities won't fund separate schools for any other sect of Christianity.
That sucks.
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yea i just think the catholic church's holier than thou philosophy is what kills it
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No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!!!! Hehehehehe
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my family is roman catholic...of course I could care less if that or any other religion gets slammed...they all contradict themselves somehow.
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I'm PO'd that they try to influence government policy on birth control and abortion and the like. Hey, "Render unto Caesar..."
But Catholic girls who rebel against Catholic morality are some of the wildest chicks around!
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This is the most illogical, ridiculous post I've ever seen. All I have to ask is, what year is it?
Originally posted by Phanguye:
1) Purgatory- this is never mentioned in the bible but the catholic church made it up to sell their famous 'indulgences'
Purgatory was not made up to sell indulgences. Simplistically put, it's a place where the sole is purged of sins before entrance into heaven. Sort of a spiritual delousing if you will. Note that this doesn't involve some sort of Dantesque torture.
2) Indulgences - nuff said
Go read this.
Contrary to popular belief, indulgences have nothing to do with a monetary transaction. There was an extremely corrupt time in the church when they were sold, but Pope Pius V outlawed that practice in 1567. Reprimands of priests and bishops for this practice had been handed out much earlier. So basically no indulgence has been sold for almost 450 years. Yeah, you're current.
3) Their huge cathedrals - poor people have to give 10 percent of their income so that the pope can add on to his cathedral in rome?? is this really worth a child starving for
10% of their income? No Catholic has to give one red cent of income to the Church. So where in the hell do you even get this idea, much less 10%. If you were talking about Mormons, that's a different matter.
Oh and that Cathedral in Rome, I can't recall the Pope ever adding on to it. Ever been to Rome? I have. There isn't a whole lot of room to build around St. Peters.
4) The inquisition - convert and give up everything you believe in or we will torture you and eventually kill you
The inquisition was abolished in 1820 and it's height was in the 15th and 16th centuries. Yes, it was absolutely horrible. But Catholocism has come a long way since then. Ever go into a Catholic Church and see a priest blessing non-Catholics individually during Communion? While I'd say it's a good bet all Catholic Churches don't follow this practice, I haven't been in one in quite a while that doesn't do this.
5) Count Ugulo- Italian count in the 15th century ... he and his children were locked in a room so that they all starved to death... and the count had to deal with the fact that he could not save his children.... and who locked him up??? you got it... a catholic bishop
Once again, how long ago was this?
6) Catholic church's platform on non involvement during the Nazi Holocaust
You really need to do some homework. Officially, they didn't want to get involved because their city was essentially surrounded by the Third Reich. So they went on about their business and quitely helped people. Ever heard of Saint Maximillian Colby. Sure you haven't.
"He was born on January 7, 1894 in Zdunska Wola, Poland. He died in August 1941 by lethal carbonic acid injection after [two weeks of] starvation in Auschwitz. Suffered from tuberculosis in youth, and frail in health all his life. Franciscan. Doctor of Theology. Founded the Immaculate Movement, and published the magazine The Knight of the Immaculate. Priest. Imprisoned in Auschwitz for his anti-Nazi publications. Ministered to other prisoners, including conducting Mass and delivering communion using smuggled bread and wine. Traded places with a young married man [Francis Gajowniczek] who was to be slaughtered in retribution for an escaped prisoner."
more reasons or defences... lets go
I think that's enough for now.
Oh wait, there's always Bishop Desmond Tutu and Mother Theresa. They only won that little award...uh what's it called...the Nobel Peace Prize.
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Originally posted by Arty50:
<STRONG>This is the most illogical, ridiculous post I've ever seen. All I have to ask is, what year is it?
</STRONG>
Actually Pope Pius did in fact visit Berlin and he has been dubbed Hitler's Pope. Don't forget too that a Reich is 'Holy Roman Empire' which is also Catholic. People tend to confuse the Nazi racial theory with the Reich's official denomination.
Those Swiss guys who kept all that Jewish gold were also Catholics.
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And don't forget OPUS DEI!!!!!!!!!!
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I think catholics tend to good people. They are typically hard working, family oriented and community minded people (generalizing).
However, I do believe the Catholic church is probably the most insane popular denomination in the world.
Where else can you have a man (and only a man), become a priest and by the Church's teachings is therefore endowed with God's power of forgiving sins and converting wine and bread to the ACTUAL blood and body of Jesus Christ. To make this even more ridiculous, some of these Priests who possess this power commit sins such as child molestation, theft, etc. And to top this off, a priest has the the Catholic mandated power to hear confessions of terrible acts (murder, rape, incest, etc..) and keep this knowledge to himself and not tell any law enforcement officers, even at the expense of having the confessors continue their sinful acts.
I consider the continued existence of the Catholic church as genuine proof of a God, for it takes God to provide the miracle that there continue to be so many catholics.
There. Having said all that, I should admit that I took catholic conversion classes when I got married. Am I a practicing catholic? Nope, but I do understand how important it is to some people that catholocism be part of their lives, and I hope I didn't offend someone. I'm just glad my wife and family are no longer part of the catholic church.
damion
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I'm with Arty50 on this one. For every "evil catholic", I will find an equally good or positive catholic. Catholicism has gone through some very difficult times over it's 2000 year history, but keep in mind that every religion that believes in Jesus as the savior and isn't catholic is a break from Catholicism.
The Catholic church has made some serious changes over the past fifty years. Any organization that survives 2000 years is going to have rough spots, but that doesn't mean that the underlying philosophy is flawed.
6) Catholic church's platform on non involvement during the Nazi Holocaust.
Ummm, the US took the same stance in the beginning of WWII as did many countries. It's also not like Hitler was broadcasting ("Hey, we are rounding up all of the Jews to kill!") The US could have let more jews come from Poland as refugees prior to the start of the war, BUT WE DIDN'T! Ford Motor Company supported the Nazi party along with IBM and a few other companies. It was a very messed up time. Hitler was an amazing person in that he took a conquered country [Germany after WWI] and rebuilt them into a world power within ten years (Don't get me wrong, I hope that Nazi F@#$er is burning in HELL) The Nazi party didn't give Vatican City many options. Vatican city is a one square mile self contained country! You also need to consider that thousands of American Catholics died fighting the Germans in World War II. I think in the United States, the separation of Church and State makes many of the religions coexist much better.
I would appreciate that you not make such sweeping accusations. As a catholic, I have adopted a live and let live philosophy regarding all religions.
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Originally posted by KellyHogan:
<STRONG>And don't forget OPUS DEI!!!!!!!!!!</STRONG>
How could we? You bring it up every 10th post.
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I can't understand any religion that mourns their beliefs. I play for a Catholic Church during the holiday services and they have to be THE most sad and scared people on the planet. I had a romate that was a devout catholic in college and this boy would smoke pot, drink heavily then go to church and confess all his "sins" to wash them away... then he'd repeat. Kinda reminded me of Shampoo... Lather, rinse, repeat
All in all I find the catholic church to be very boring.
Mac Guru
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Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
<STRONG>
The Catholic church has made some serious changes over the past fifty years. </STRONG>
I agree. They formed a massively wealthy, corrupt, right-wing organisation called OPUS DEI (!!!!) whose originator was a Nazi sympathiser and which has been linked to the Mafia, supported Franco, involved in banking scandals and murders, to manipulating US Foreign Policy and the CIA via members like William Casey and had a hand in creating Islamic terrorism.
Please read Their Kingdom Come by Robert Hutchinson for a good look at what the Church of Rome has done for the last 50 years.
There is a difference between regular people who 'say' they are Catholic (some of my relatives say they are but don't practise, like much of the Catholic world) and the actual Church which is all about power and will always be. Jesus would not appreciate the sight of the Vatican.
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you guys are missing the point completely... i am not saying catholics are bad people... that is a ridiculous statement
what i am criticizing is the ethics of the catholic church through out the ages... i don't have to keep recent although ww2 was only 60 years ago.
Arty50... yes the catholic church made up purgatory... it is not mentioned any where in the bible or any other holy document written before the pope wanted to invent it. And as for the 10 percent... ever heard of a tithe. This was practiced up until the fall of the holy roman empire and even in church controled states after this. as for St. Peters just cause you don't remember unless you are about 2000 years old. In fact one of martin luther's arguement's against the catholic church reads as follows "Again; what does not the Pope, whose riches are at this day more ample than those of the wealthiest of the wealthy, build the single Basilica of St. Peter with his own money rather than with that of poor believers?
And about indulgences "They preach man who say that the soul flies out of Purgatory as soon as the money thrown into the chest rattles."
I used to be a catholic my friend, at my first holy communion the priest would not allow my father to take communion because he wasn't a member of the catholic church... how can a holy establishment be that petty of someone just because he is a protestant? does he not believe in the same god?
so you have 2 examples... how many corrupt popes could i name... i think more then you can name specific names of those who are good
phang
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Yeah, yeah. I don't see anyone cussing Catholics. I went to Catholic school twice as a kid, St. Andrews and St. Edwards. Horrible memories of kids being forced to kiss the cross even though it was supposed to be a secular Catholic school.
Most Catholics, 80% perhaps, say they are Catholic because they are born in Latin countries. But how many actually practise Catholicism? Thus, you can't criticise the people. They do what they want. The Church is a completely different matter though.
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Originally posted by Arty50:
<STRONG>
10% of their income? No Catholic has to give one red cent of income to the Church. So where in the hell do you even get this idea, much less 10%. If you were talking about Mormons, that's a different matter.
</STRONG>
Not correct. In some countries if you are a catholic you will pay a tax for the church. Check the name of the country under my name- that is one of those places.
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Dammit, I was going to do something cool on my 600th post and I forgot. Damn!
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Originally posted by Phanguye:
<STRONG>you guys are missing the point completely... i am not saying catholics are bad people... that is a ridiculous statement
what i am criticizing is the ethics of the catholic church through out the ages... i don't have to keep recent although ww2 was only 60 years ago.
Arty50... yes the catholic church made up purgatory... it is not mentioned any where in the bible or any other holy document written before the pope wanted to invent it. And as for the 10 percent... ever heard of a tithe. This was practiced up until the fall of the holy roman empire and even in church controled states after this. as for St. Peters just cause you don't remember unless you are about 2000 years old. In fact one of martin luther's arguement's against the catholic church reads as follows "Again; what does not the Pope, whose riches are at this day more ample than those of the wealthiest of the wealthy, build the single Basilica of St. Peter with his own money rather than with that of poor believers?
And about indulgences "They preach man who say that the soul flies out of Purgatory as soon as the money thrown into the chest rattles."
I used to be a catholic my friend, at my first holy communion the priest would not allow my father to take communion because he wasn't a member of the catholic church... how can a holy establishment be that petty of someone just because he is a protestant? does he not believe in the same god?
so you have 2 examples... how many corrupt popes could i name... i think more then you can name specific names of those who are good
phang</STRONG>
No, I haven't missed the point. You are talking about past history, and you continue to talk about past history. Tithing is over. The notion of an intermidiary state between life and the soul's 'final destination,' where the soul is cleansed of wrong doing, predates Christianity. Catholics gave it the fancy name Purgatory, that's all. But you keep going on and on about the Church during the middle/dark ages. Things have changed man. If you don't do some current research then please don't comment.
Listen, I don't go to Church every Sunday; mass doesn't do anything for me. But I still consider myself Catholic. I accept the dogma of the church, but disagree with some of it's doctrine. "What's that mean?" you ask. I'll give you some simple examples. Dogma are basic beliefs of the church like Jesus was the Son of God, died for our sins, openned up heaven, etc. If you disagree with any dogmatic belief, then you can't consider yourself Catholic. Doctrine is stuff like not wearing condoms, abstinence until marriage, purgatory etc. It's perfectly alright to disagree with doctrine. However, sometimes priests and nuns can get in trouble for this; but they've chosen to be representatives of the church.
Now this is a huge organization made up of human beings, and just like any such organization it has people with problems. Out of all the priests in the world, what percentage go around molesting little children? Less than 1/100,000 of a percent I'd guess. What percentage still teach old doctrine? Well that's a lot higher. Why? Because educating all of these people is a huge task. It takes years. Luckily I received a very liberal (in the true sense of the word) religious education. I've drawn my own conclusions about my faith and practice it in my own way. In fact, this has led me away from an active life in the church. But that's just me. It's different for everyone. A person in a third world country might be taught fire and brimstone, and be discouraged from seeking their own true faith. And admittedly that's sad. But some of the teaching methods that are starting to filter down in the Church would amaze you. It's no longer about fear. Instead it's one of personal thought and a search for one's own faith.
So that's part of the good in Catholicism. Another major event was the Pope's trip to Greece. It's a huge sign of the changes in the practices and beliefs of today's Catholic Church.
Pope Asks Forgiveness for Catholic-Orthodox Rift
Reuters
ATHENS (May 4) - Pope John Paul asked God on Friday to forgive Catholics for sins committed against Orthodox Christians during the 1,000 years the two Church branches have been split.
''For the occasions past and present, when the sons and daughters of the Catholic Church have sinned by actions and omission against their Orthodox brothers and sisters may the Lord grant us the forgiveness we beg of him,'' he said in an address to Greece's Orthodox leader Archbishop Christodoulos.
He specifically cited the Crusaders' 1204 sacking of Constantinople, the capital of the Byzantine empire, an act he said filled today's Catholics with ''deep regret.''
The Pope was on the controversial first leg of a pilgrimage to retrace St. Paul's journey through Greece, Syria and Malta. Conservative Greek Orthodox have protested at his visit, blaming the Catholic Church for the Great Schism of 1054 which divided Christianity into Eastern and Western branches.
The pontiff's call for forgiveness followed a lambasting by Christodoulos, who told the Pope that an apology was needed for a range of grievances from the schism to a lack of publicly expressed concern over the divided island of Cyprus.
''Traumatic experiences remain as open wounds on (the Greek people's) vigorous body,'' Christodoulos said. ''Yet until now, there has not been heard even a single request for pardon.''
Christodolos, who grudgingly accepted the Pope's visit to Greece after the government invited him, burst into applause at the pontiff's call for forgiveness. After the speeches the two church leaders embraced.
The Archbishop had earlier presented the Pope with an icon and a golden staff crowned with a wreath.
REUTERS Reut08:05 05-04-01
[ 01-25-2002: Message edited by: Arty50 ]
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Yeah. The Pope organised a multi-faith meeting this week and it resulted in anger from Catholics who didn't want to pray with 'heretics, pagans, etc'. Very nice.
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Sure, the church made some mistakes in the past. It's not the administration, it's the faith.
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Originally posted by KellyHogan:
<STRONG>Yeah. The Pope organised a multi-faith meeting this week and it resulted in anger from Catholics who didn't want to pray with 'heretics, pagans, etc'. Very nice.</STRONG>
Linkage please.
When the Pope went to Greece, huge demonstrations were planned by members of the Greek Orthodox Church. The state and church leaders pleaded for peace and many didn't show up to demonstrate in the end. And look what happened.
Of course some Catholics are going to be resistant. But the vast majority would never protest this.
Do you expect everyone to dance to the beat of the same drum?
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it is riduculous to have such double standards of an organization just because they are a holy one... the past just doesnt go away because we want it to arty50, it is still there. and it is not like there were just a few corrupt bishops either... how can you have faith in an organization that once accepted the torture and killing of people with a different faith? not to mention the wars that took place between protestent and catholic after people realized that all the pope wanted was the peasants money... it is nice to say... of they have changed, it is like saying hey yea the 3rd reiche did some bad things, but they had a corrupt leader, so lets give them another chance... would you go along with that arty50 and yes purgatory was made up by the catholic chuch... no other christian religion believes in it
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Originally posted by Phanguye:
<STRONG>how can you have faith in an organization that once accepted the torture and killing of people with a different faith? not to mention the wars that took place between protestent and catholic after people realized that all the pope wanted was the peasants money... it is nice to say... of they have changed, it is like saying hey yea the 3rd reiche did some bad things, but they had a corrupt leader, so lets give them another chance...
phang</STRONG>
And we approach ever closer to invoking Godwin's Law...
And by the way, I'm Catholic, but I guess I need to start going to daily mass, since I missed the call to take back the Holy Land from the Moors last Sunday. I'm American too; are you mad that I have a flag on my house after what we did to the Native-Americans?
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hey i didnt know the holy land was still in control by the moors
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Originally posted by Phanguye:
<STRONG>it is riduculous to have such double standards of an organization just because they are a holy one... the past just doesnt go away because we want it to arty50, it is still there. and it is not like there were just a few corrupt bishops either... how can you have faith in an organization that once accepted the torture and killing of people with a different faith? not to mention the wars that took place between protestent and catholic after people realized that all the pope wanted was the peasants money... it is nice to say... of they have changed, it is like saying hey yea the 3rd reiche did some bad things, but they had a corrupt leader, so lets give them another chance... would you go along with that arty50 and yes purgatory was made up by the catholic chuch... no other christian religion believes in it
phang</STRONG>
First let me get this simple thing out of the way:
I didn't say Catholics did not invent purgatory. I said the basic idea was nothing new. They just chose to name their version Purgatory. Please read my posts carefully. Besides, you implied that they invented it to collect money. That's not true either. Do some research. No religious scholar in the world would agree with you.
Now for the greater issue here:
Dude, will you stop and please some logic. Yeah, we shouldn't forget the past lest we doom ourselves to repeat it. But the leaders of the Church (not just popes and bishops, but more importantly the priests) have changed for the better. The Pope just asked for forgiveness over a 1,000 year old feud. A feud that is responsible for the loss of millions of lives. He's at a meeting right now that seeks to end thousands of years of killing in the name of religion. What more do you need? Do you want him to bring world peace by 12:00 noon tomorrow? Maybe he can invent fusion overnight. But hell, nothing ever changes. Let's damn them to hell for the rest of eternity. Great logic.
If we accepted your line of thinking, then everyone should hate the United States. Why? Because the United States Government has practically eradicated an entire race of people, Native Americans. Over what? Ideals. European ideals sought the ownership and exploitation of land under the guise of exploration. And damned if we were going to let them Injuns get in our way. Or how about the few million people we kidnapped from Africa and enslaved for a few decades? And then when we 'freed' them, they still couldn't go to the same schools, restaurants, hotels, or even sit in the front of the bus. And that supposedly ended in the 1960s. So do you condemn the US for the rest of eternity also?
Or how about Russia, and all the people Stalin killed. Or the tyranny exhibited under the British Empire. Or the Spanish for the Inquisition and their Conquest of the Americas. Or the Dutch for their colonial practices. Or Japan, China, former Yugoslavia...keep on going until you run out of countries.
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The ignorant anti-Catholic garbage in this thread turns my stomach.
Originally posted by KellyHogan:
<STRONG>Don't forget too that a Reich is 'Holy Roman Empire' which is also Catholic. People tend to confuse the Nazi racial theory with the Reich's official denomination.</STRONG>
Wrong. The Third Reich was not a "Holy Roman Empire." The Nazis called themselves the Third Reich because they considered the Holy Roman Empire of Charlemagne to be the "first Reich," and then the "second Reich" was the German Empire of 1871-1918. That is the only connection, if you can even call it that.
And your contention that Catholicism was the Nazis' "official denomination" is ludicrous. Catholics did not suffer to the degree that Jews did, but the Nazis did view the Catholic Church as a threat, particularly in heavily Catholic Bavaria. Catholic schools were closed (a move I'm sure you would cheer) and many priests, especially Jesuits, were thrown in the concentration camps and killed.
Originally posted by KellyHogan:
<STRONG>Those Swiss guys who kept all that Jewish gold were also Catholics.</STRONG>
I won't even dignify that with a response.
Yes, Catholics did some horrible things back in the Reformation/Counter-Reformation era, and horrible things were done to Catholics, as well. Let's all get past it and move on, shall we?
About the cathedrals: Personally, I find them quite inspiring, and I'm amazed when I think about the people, yes many of them poor, who willingly saved money to contribute, and later could look up at this tremendous building and say, "That's ours; I helped build it." It's called being part of a community.
Yes, I'm Catholic. And I don't agree with all the church's policies. I won't pretend to be an expert on doctrine or dogma or whatever; I'm not. But when I think of the Catholic Church I think about a benevolent organization that does a lot of good in this world. Right down to the local level. The priest in the parish where I grew up now works in a parish in inner-city Minneapolis, where he does a lot of work with the homeless. A great guy; I admire him a lot.
[ 01-26-2002: Message edited by: CaseCom ]
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CaseCom, the Germans are the only one who can call themselves 'Reich' and they did so. Who are you to contest the fact that they were, for a short time, the third Holy Roman Empire? If they said they were then they were. End of story.
Yes, they were officially Catholic. Don't think the Vatican had any connections?
http://www.emperors-clothes.com/anal...itlerspope.htm
http://www.theconnection.org/archive...10/1017b.shtml
Do you also think that Opus Dei is a squeeky clean organisation that has not indulged itself in brainwashing people, murder, laundering money, had a hand in Islamic terrorism, had a hand on controlling politicians...
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The Jesuit educational system is the best in the world.
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Originally posted by KellyHogan:
<STRONG>CaseCom, the Germans are the only one who can call themselves 'Reich' and they did so. Who are you to contest the fact that they were, for a short time, the third Holy Roman Empire? If they said they were then they were. End of story.</STRONG>
What are you talking about? "Reich" doesn't mean "Holy Roman Empire"; it just means "empire."
I won't defend how the Vatican behaved in the '30s. Clearly they should have showed more backbone. But there is nothing that says the Nazis were "officially Catholic." There is no historical basis for that.
Originally posted by KellyHogan:
<STRONG>Do you also think that Opus Dei is a squeeky clean organisation that has not indulged itself in brainwashing people, murder, laundering money, had a hand in Islamic terrorism, had a hand on controlling politicians...</STRONG>
I don't know anything about Opus Dei. If I choose to learn about them I'll consult a wider range of sources and form my own opinion, thank you.
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CaseCom,
Germans weren't/aren't predominantly Catholic?
Also, how can the Third Reich not be Holy Roman Empire? Who are you to say it wasn't when the guys who ran it said they were? You can't argue against that.
As for Opus Dei, yes, please study about it. It's not the nicest thing. Far from it.
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Originally posted by KellyHogan:
<STRONG>CaseCom,
Germans weren't/aren't predominantly Catholic?
Also, how can the Third Reich not be Holy Roman Empire? Who are you to say it wasn't when the guys who ran it said they were? You can't argue against that.
As for Opus Dei, yes, please study about it. It's not the nicest thing. Far from it.</STRONG>
No, All the Germans I know are lutheran. (But I don't know anywhere near "MOST" Germans.) Most everything I've read leads me to believe that the Nazi party was very anti-catholic.
Besides, If I called the combination of my estates the "4th reich," does that mean that the Catholic church endorses my empire? I think not. What if I flat out call it the new Holy Roman Empire? Doesn't mean a thing. People claim affiliation with different organizations all the time even though the organization wouldn't claim them. Why do they claim affiliation? credibility and authority. Don't confuse the claim of affiliation with true affiliation/participation.
I do have to say that I have some problems with the practice of Catholicism....
Why will they not allow priests to marry? I think the idea of celibacy is important for some, but not all that feel the call to walk with G-d feel the call the be celibate. I know a very wonderful man who went through seminary with the intent of becoming a priest. In the last year of seminary, he met his wife. So much for the priesthood. It's a shame because he is the embodyment of everything a priest should be.
I also have a problem with the unwillingness to ordain women. I think this is going to need to be addressed in the not too distant future as there is a dearth of "priests-in-training." There is an order of nuns (Mary Knowles?) who all have Master of Divinity degrees just in case the Church should reverse itself on this issue. I think, howver, you will see married priests before you see women ordained in the Catholic Church.
I have a problem understanding why I need an intermediary between myself and G-d (i.e. confession).
I have a problem with transubstantiation. (But this is really a minor point.)
Having said all this, however, I live with two Catholic women who are (most likely) going to be nuns. It is interesting to listen to them struggle with these issues and still believe that Catholicism is the best expression of their faith. That is, after all, what it comes down to. What do you feel is the best expression of what you believe? I usually can't use denomination as my guide. Congregations within the same denomination can be very different, and I have to sample a variety of congregations within a variety of denominations before I find my "home" in a new town.
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casecom... the people who gave money to build those churches did not willing to do... they were taxed first by the church then by the king... but the rich people, such as the aristocrats of the time did not have to pay the church tithe... just something to keep in mind when you look at huge cathedrals... they were built with the blood of the poor
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Originally posted by KellyHogan:
<STRONG>CaseCom,
Germans weren't/aren't predominantly Catholic?
Also, how can the Third Reich not be Holy Roman Empire? Who are you to say it wasn't when the guys who ran it said they were? You can't argue against that.
As for Opus Dei, yes, please study about it. It's not the nicest thing. Far from it.</STRONG>
Um ... you may have heard of Martin Luther? German. Translated the Bible into German, in fact. Historically, most of northern Germany was Protestant (predominantly Lutheran); much of southern Germany was Catholic. This has been true since the 1500s/1600s and is still largely true today. Today Germany is about 34% Catholic.
The Nazis weren't "for" any brand of organized religion other than the worship of the state. They thought religion was a crutch for the weak-minded, to borrow a phrase from Jesse Ventura. But they really didn't like Catholicism because its organized nature made it a rival to the state.
On this "Holy Roman Empire" thing you obviously will not be dissuaded from your belief in this evil Nazi-Vatican axis, no matter what facts I put out to the contrary. All I can say is read some books and get the facts.
You mentioned the Swiss earlier. Switzerland is also less than half Catholic. But even if Germany and Switzerland were 100% Catholic, your claims would still be nonsense. It just shows how disconnected from real facts you are.
Originally posted by Phanguye:
<STRONG>casecom... the people who gave money to build those churches did not willing to do... they were taxed first by the church then by the king... but the rich people, such as the aristocrats of the time did not have to pay the church tithe... just something to keep in mind when you look at huge cathedrals... they were built with the blood of the poor</STRONG>
Again, this is ancient history as far as I'm concerned. No "king" here. As Arty said, tithing is over. The cathedral here in St. Paul was built in 1913, and parishioners gave of their own free will. Yes, the church dominated life back on 1300s, 1400s or whenever Europe's Gothic cathedrals were built. Yes, this was a bad thing in some ways. But the church also did good back then: they were about the only place during Europe's Dark Ages where scholarship and learning survived.
And I know that in some countries today the church does have a hand in influencing politics. I'm not saying I agree with that either. I believe in the separation of church and state.
Boots: Thanks for posting. Finally someone around here who makes sense. For the record, I share your concerns about how the Catholic Church views women, including the ordination of women. I really wish the Vatican would come around on that point.
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In some countries if you are a catholic you will pay a tax for the church. Check the name of the country under my name- that is one of those places.
Thats not the Catholic Chruch, that's Liechtenstein. I'm sure there are other countrie like that too.
I'm a 20 year old college student, and a Catholic. I try to go to Church every weekend, if I miss mass, big deal. I haven't been to confession in years, and have no plans on going. I give maybe one percent of my income to the church, I know they ask 10%, but I just don't want to part with that much money. About purgatory, I don't have an opinion. If purgatory exists, fine. If it doesn't, fine. There are some other minor points that I don't agree on. What has happened in the past is just that. I know the Catholic Church was corrupt, and if I saw it becoming corrupted againg, I would end my association with the church, I'd still have the same beliefs, just no church to call myself a member of. I wont try to explain why I belive in the different parts of Catholicism, because everyone has the right to belive in whatever they want. What myself and other Catholics belive in may not make sense to many of you, but I'm sure that parts of each one of your beliefs wont make much sense to everyone else.
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I know a guy from nantucket, and well lets just say the stories about him are greatly exaggerated.
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Originally posted by petoria:
<STRONG>
Thats not the Catholic Chruch, that's Liechtenstein. I'm sure there are other countrie like that too.
</STRONG>
...and whose influence do you think was responsible for this? Hint: it wasn't the people's. You have to understand, in some places there is no separation of church and state, plain and simple. Saying it is the government that forces people to pay the tax is the same as saying it's the church. Want to get married in the church there? Well, you better have paid your taxes... it's a long drive to Vegas otherwise.
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I have an interesting story to share with all of you, and you can take from it what you wish.
My mom's side of my family goes a little bit like this. My grandparents: fairly devout Missoury Synod Lutherans. They had four children, Dale, Joan, Bill, and my mom Jane. Joan married a Catholic man and converted to catholicism, and they moved to a farm and had 10 kids. The other 3 remained Lutheran. My Grandpa died in the mid 70s a few years before I was born, so I don't know a whole lot about that. I do know that my Grandma never approved of Joan's conversion to Catholicism, but they just avoided the issue at family gatherings and everybody remained cordial.
But, one and a half years ago, my Grandma died. She had been sick for months so it was not unexpected. Her Lutheran pastor was with her when she died, and apparently she had made it clear that she wanted a Lutheran funeral. But, since Joan generally held the most power among the 4 siblings, she decided that it should be a Catholic funeral, at the cathedral she and her husband go to.
My mom, being several years younger than Joan, was successfully influenced into believing it was the right thing - I have also heard that Joan vowed to secede her family and not speak to any of the others if the funeral was not Catholic, so I think my mom agreed to avoid conflict.
My uncle Bill, however, who was the closest to my Grandmother, strongly disagreed. There were major arguments, and he could not convince them to have the Lutheran funeral like my Grandma wanted. He attended the funeral, but sat separate from my family and my aunt's family, and he hasn't spoken to any of them since. Bill is my godfather and he and I have always been quite close, so he and I stay in pretty good contact. He had a very hard time dealing with my Grandma's death, and he told me I was the only relative he had that was still talking to him.
This put a strain on my relationship with my Mom, and I dont think it would be worth it to bring this to a head again - I just don't tell her I talk to Bill and meet him for dinner every once in a while.
This situation really made me angry - not only because it violated a dying woman's wishes, but it devastated my Grandma's closest son, who felt all the more alone because in effect he lost his sisters too. And I all trace it back to my aunt Joan's insistence on forcing Catholicism on my grandmother.
[ 01-27-2002: Message edited by: awaspaas ]
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Ooh my first double-post!
[ 01-27-2002: Message edited by: awaspaas ]
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I am a Roman Catholic. Im not an active participator, but i do live by most of the rules. Every religion on earth has a bad track record. Islam, Hinduism, Communism, Christianity(non-RCs), etc....
to point a finger is absolutely unfair. Almost every war on earth involves religious conflict, and only one of those have a RC faction (Ireland).
To claim one follows the bible, would be to claim that one follows the church and writings that date back further than most. It's relitavely easy to claim that one interpretation is better than the next, and thats why you have 250 christian denominations who constantly alter the scriptures to meet their own needs and wants. examples include issues like divorce and abortion. one could SAY they agree with the teaching of one one denomination, when what they are actually looking for is a way to divorce from their partner and to justify it.
In the end what you have is one big mess.
True, the RC is a huge political force, and why shouldnt it be ? so is Islam, Hinduism,etc.The RCs are not the only people in history to make mistakes. take a look at what happened to the Native Americans and how it was justified. And then consider the natives in Canada who were "conquered" by the RC French. Take a look at Israel, Kashmir, N.Ireland, Chechnya, Cyprus, Indonesia, etc...
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The Catholic church? Just another Multinational, doing everything they can to make more money and have more power.
Like Bin Laden uses the Koran as an excuse, the Catholic church uses the Bible.
And the Catholic Church history is by far more drenched in blood then any other organisation/state/religion in the world.
The first European genocide (the albigensian crusade) is a good example.
Dominique - nique - nigue......
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but how can the holy roman church make mistakes if they are infalliable as they claim
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Originally posted by Phanguye:
<STRONG>but how can the holy roman church make mistakes if they are infalliable as they claim</STRONG>
The doctrine of papal infallibility -- which is a subject of legitimate debate even among faithful Catholics -- is much more limited than most people assume. It does not mean the pope, or the church, is always right about everything.
Again: do some reading.
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Originally posted by M�lum:
<STRONG>The Catholic church? Just another Multinational, doing everything they can to make more money and have more power.
Like Bin Laden uses the Koran as an excuse, the Catholic church uses the Bible.
And the Catholic Church history is by far more drenched in blood then any other organisation/state/religion in the world.
The first European genocide (the albigensian crusade) is a good example.
Dominique - nique - nigue......</STRONG>
More ancient history. Your "good example" is from the 13th century.
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Wow, I think you folks have managed to miss all of the biggest and simplest complaints one can possibly have with the catholic church! First, foremost, and of the utmost importance to the entire planet, catholicism's inane doctrines STILL forbid the use of contraception! How ridiculous is that? Apparently the use of a condom to is a sin - what an ignorant crock.
Second, divorce is not allowed under catholicism - oh wait, I'm sorry, that's no true. They made up annulments (sp?) to solve that. That's the catholic way! The current system can't deal with something? Well then let's just make up a solution! Don't worry, we swear it's completely religiously legit. Riiiiiiiiiiight...
One of my favorite treats, good old Lent. Ladies and gentlemen, be sure to get all your sinning in real good now, because during Lent everyone's gonna get their own "get out of jail free" card! Don't matter what sin you commit, it allllllllllll gets washed away! Wonderful. What a useful message. It's basically a free pass to do whatever you feel like.
The list goes on and on, but I'm too tired to add any more right now. I'll be back tho
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Originally posted by CaseCom:
<STRONG>
More ancient history. Your "good example" is from the 13th century.</STRONG>
Yes, did I say it wasn't?
History is a time line, it connects things.
If the church of Rome hadn't accused the Jews of the death of Christ (which was an excuse for gaining power) we might not have had the pogroms and the mass murder by the Nazi's.
The church of Rome played a very ambiguous role during WW2.
Ofcourse they haven't been as bloody in recent history as there is no more need to act that way. There are more progressed methodes of gaining power which are much less visible.
Kelly has given some examples, many more can be added.
But the best example I got from my parents and grand parents. If you hear the way catholic belief was lived only 50 years ago in civilised Europe, you don't believe you're ears! They controlled everything.
But I suppose Mother Theresa of Calcutta is a saint to you.
[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: M�lum ]
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