[Cipher13]

Is there a way to go back to how Jaguar handled app switching?

I don't need a bloody huge marquee across my screen telling me what applications I have open - that's what the Dock is for.

Nor do I need it to change the order in which those applications are displayed every time applications are switched.

Bloody terrible, imo.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

It is really that stressful to you? You rather have to watch the dock carefully? What about if it is hidden?

If all you need is the dock then click on it and don't use command tab.

[mitchell_pgh]

I think the new way is a major step forward. It makes sense. I also have much more control over what application I'm switching to.

When I have 20+ applications going, I can vusually see which one I'm moving to.

It's also nice for people that are watching you... trying to learn how you did something.

[CharlesS]

I too prefer the old way.

With the Dock, you can see the order of the apps, so you can get an idea how many times you will have to hit Tab to get to the application you want. I was usually able to switch apps faster using the old method than I am able to now.

[crouchingtiger]

the apps reorder themselves based on how recently you used them. therefore, a single command-tab will let you switch between two applications continuously. This is GREAT.

I don't understand the near idiotic (IMHO) complaint that having the switcher be in the dock means you have a better idea of how many times you need to hit "tab" to get to an app. The new way has all the OPEN apps in big icons on the middle of the screen!!! So, you don't have to distinguish between dock icons that have a little arrow underneath them or not! Furthermore, if you are command-tabbing with your left hand and you still have your right hand on the mouse, you can just click on the icon you want directly while the app icons are on screen.

[MindFad]

Originally posted by crouchingtiger:
the apps reorder themselves based on how recently you used them. therefore, a single command-tab will let you switch between two applications continuously. This is GREAT.

I don't understand the near idiotic (IMHO) complaint that having the switcher be in the dock means you have a better idea of how many times you need to hit "tab" to get to an app. The new way has all the OPEN apps in big icons on the middle of the screen!!! So, you don't have to distinguish between dock icons that have a little arrow underneath them or not! Furthermore, if you are command-tabbing with your left hand and you still have your right hand on the mouse, you can just click on the icon you want directly while the app icons are on screen.

Gotta agree here. I really like the new way.

They should have an option for Cipher, though, fo' serious.

[k2director]

I love the new app switcher. Hated the old way of switching through Dock icons. Since I have a few dozen icons in my Dock, it was too hard to see which were active as I was switching. Couldn't easily predict how many more tabs were necessary. With the Panther switcher, it's much easier. PLus, I like being able to choose icons with the mouse.

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by crouchingtiger:
the apps reorder themselves based on how recently you used them. therefore, a single command-tab will let you switch between two applications continuously. This is GREAT.

It already did that in Jaguar.

I don't understand the near idiotic (IMHO) complaint that having the switcher be in the dock means you have a better idea of how many times you need to hit "tab" to get to an app. The new way has all the OPEN apps in big icons on the middle of the screen!!! So, you don't have to distinguish between dock icons that have a little arrow underneath them or not! Furthermore, if you are command-tabbing with your left hand and you still have your right hand on the mouse, you can just click on the icon you want directly while the app icons are on screen.

Idiotic, eh... nice personal attack. Way to make a point.

The old way let you see the apps before you hit Command-Tab in the first place, because your app switcher was also the Dock, which was already visible. The new way you have to command-Tab, look, then command-tab until you get where you want, whereas with the old way, you could analyze the number of cmd-Tabs needed while your hand was still heading for the keys. Multitasking!

Anyway, I agree with MindFad, there should be an option to choose which behavior you prefer. It's not a huge deal to me, but I did like the old behavior.

[fiddler]

I wouldnt' mind it too much if there was a way to make it NOT SO BLOODY HUGE. It seriously startles me every time I hit cmd tab with say, only 5 apps open... An option to set the maximum size of the icons would be nice...

[1zero]

How about Expose to switch between apps.

Hit one key, click on the app you want and you're done.

I may have a few issues with Panther, but I definitively find they have improved in the area discussed in this thread.

[michaelb]

Originally posted by fiddler:
I wouldnt' mind it too much if there was a way to make it NOT SO BLOODY HUGE. It seriously startles me every time I hit cmd tab with say, only 5 apps open...

LOL!

I think that's good though - I never knew before that the Safari icon was so detailed it actually had degree marks between the compass points.

I also like the intelligent ordering, so that a single command-tab can be used to switch back and forth between two actively used programs. It's great if you're cutting & pasting text from one app into another using the keyboard. Seems that some UI people at Apple actually get it.

AND, the center screen overlay is consistent with the way sound volume and screen brightness is altered. It's elegant.

Anyway, reactionary opinions aside, one thing is clear: with Panther and features like this and Expos�, Apple are really beginning to focus on the sheer usability of the interface that made the classic Mac OS so popular for 15 years.

With 10.4 Fatcat next year, the save dialogs may actually be usable again...

[booboo]

I'm sure someone will come up with an app-switch replacement, but I think for most people the new method is a real improvement. It makes sense that it's slap bang in the middle of the screen, than trying to figure out what's going on with the tiny icons in my over-stressed Dock . . . it's consistent with Volume level and Eject notification, for example, but I'd have though having the app's in a circle - rather than a straight line- would have been more Apple-like . . .

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:
It is really that stressful to you? You rather have to watch the dock carefully? What about if it is hidden?

If all you need is the dock then click on it and don't use command tab.

Watch the Dock carefully? Sorry, but switching applications doesn't require the entirety of my concentration. Sorry if it does yours.

I don't hide the Dock either, and I believe that if it is hidden and you switch apps, it shows itself (I could be wrong on that).

Heh. Great solution you have there. Useful as always, solo.

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
I think the new way is a major step forward. It makes sense. I also have much more control over what application I'm switching to.

When I have 20+ applications going, I can vusually see which one I'm moving to.

It's also nice for people that are watching you... trying to learn how you did something.

You have no more control... it's just far more in your face.

Yes, the apps reorder themselves... but for your advantage, or confusion, in the end?

Originally posted by crouchingtiger:
the apps reorder themselves based on how recently you used them. therefore, a single command-tab will let you switch between two applications continuously. This is GREAT.

I don't understand the near idiotic (IMHO) complaint that having the switcher be in the dock means you have a better idea of how many times you need to hit "tab" to get to an app. The new way has all the OPEN apps in big icons on the middle of the screen!!! So, you don't have to distinguish between dock icons that have a little arrow underneath them or not! Furthermore, if you are command-tabbing with your left hand and you still have your right hand on the mouse, you can just click on the icon you want directly while the app icons are on screen.

Jaguar did that also. A command-tab would take you to the last used application. That is nothing new.

Having the switcher in the Dock DOES give you a better idea, because you know in which order the applications will rotate. With this new method that changes the order, you have no idea until you've got that huge bloody banner in your face.

Your comment re. having the mouse in your right hand... heh... why not just click on the Dock, then, hm?

Originally posted by k2director:
I love the new app switcher. Hated the old way of switching through Dock icons. Since I have a few dozen icons in my Dock, it was too hard to see which were active as I was switching. Couldn't easily predict how many more tabs were necessary. With the Panther switcher, it's much easier. PLus, I like being able to choose icons with the mouse.

AGAIN... if you wanna use the mouse, just used the Dock...?

Originally posted by michaelb:
LOL!

I think that's good though - I never knew before that the Safari icon was so detailed it actually had degree marks between the compass points.

I also like the intelligent ordering, so that a single command-tab can be used to switch back and forth between two actively used programs. It's great if you're cutting & pasting text from one app into another using the keyboard. Seems that some UI people at Apple actually get it.

AND, the center screen overlay is consistent with the way sound volume and screen brightness is altered. It's elegant.

Anyway, reactionary opinions aside, one thing is clear: with Panther and features like this and Expos�, Apple are really beginning to focus on the sheer usability of the interface that made the classic Mac OS so popular for 15 years.

With 10.4 Fatcat next year, the save dialogs may actually be usable again...

AGAIN, Jaguar also allowed you to go back and forth between the "two actively used programs", as you say.

That is NOT new functionality.

You speak of consistency; well, the 'eject' and 'volume' marquees are notification symbols - not nearly as interactive, nor large, as this app switcher. Nor are they as redundant, with the Dock at the bottom of the screen.

[kent m]

the "new" app switching method is a dumbed down rip-off of LiteSwitchX from Proteron. LiteSwitchX did exactly the same thing as the Jag app switching with more & better options.

[Appleman]

Choices are the fruits of life.

What I just found out is that while burning a cd, you can see the progress in the command-tab screen, nice touch though.

[Fonzie]

I have this issue with the app switcher in Panther; Is the app not supposed to open when being selected in the app switcher ? My proggies does not

well, they do if for example the Safari and Proteus windows are open, then they switch alright-but not when the app is hidden or docked.

sorry for the offtopic post.

[Dale Sorel]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
Is there a way to go back to how Jaguar handled app switching?

Maybe you should go back to OS 7 so you can have the cool app switcher in the top-right of your screen

[cpac]

I like the new switcher.

My favorite new feature? The ability to quit apps by command tabbling... (just press Q when the app you want to quit is highlighted).

but then again, I also really like the new Finder, so maybe my opinion wont mean squat to some of you...

[OAW]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
Is there a way to go back to how Jaguar handled app switching?

Not to my knowledge.

Originally posted by Cipher13:

I don't need a bloody huge marquee across my screen telling me what applications I have open - that's what the Dock is for.

Nor do I need it to change the order in which those applications are displayed every time applications are switched.

Bloody terrible, imo.

Actually one of the oft-mentioned criticisms of the Dock was that it was "for" too many things. App Launcher, App Switcher, Minimized Window Holder, Misc. Shortcut Holder, etc. Personally, I'm glad the CMD + TAB functionality has been changed to its current incarnation. If for no other reason that it gives the Dock one less thing to do. Granted, the Dock can still be used for app switching with the mouse ... or even with the keyboard with "Full Keyboard Access" turned on. But let's face it ... CMD + TAB is the primary keyboard oriented method for switching apps ... and it works much better than the Dock because it is much easier to see and read. The old Dock method would just magnify a Dock icon and display the app name above it. The problem was the next magnified icon could be anywhere in the Dock depending upon how many non-running apps you had sitting there. The current method tabs to the next icon ... always! Additionally, the white text of the app name above the icon in the Dock is typically displayed right above some sort of white background ... a browser window, a Finder window, just about any window has some sort of white background. I found it very difficult to read. The current method and it's use of a gray background with an even darker gray icon and app name highlight color makes seeing and reading the highlighted app a no brainer.

User preferences are to a certain extent a matter of opinion. And I respect yours in this area. However, I daresay that my contention that the current method is much easier to read and thus, easier to use goes beyond a mere opinion.

On top of all of that, the current method just looks way more cool! Now that is an opinion.

OAW

[k2director]

By the way, I was very excited about Expose when I saw previews of Panther, but in practice, I don't use it much.

I have a 23" Cinema Display. When I have lots of windows scaled down in Expose, it takes me a moment to really figure out which window is which. For instance, the Mail window can look similar to a Word document, which looks similar to AddressBook. At a split-second glance, that is. So it takes me more time to find the app I want through Expose than it does via the Command-Tab switcher.

[Thor]

After installing drivers for my intellimouse Explorer, I was surprised that by default the scrollwheel button was mapped to display the app switcher.

Click once switches to next app.
Click and hold brings up the switcher.
Scroll wheel moves between apps.
Let go makes the switch.

Very slick.

[fiddler]

Originally posted by cpac:
I like the new switcher.

My favorite new feature? The ability to quit apps by command tabbling... (just press Q when the app you want to quit is highlighted).

Not a new feature.. You can do that in Jaguar too. It IS nifty though.

[crouchingtiger]

CharlesS -- sorry about the "near idiotic" comment, that was me speaking in hyperbole, no personal offense meant! (although obviously I can understand why it was taken badly.)

to sum up, I think that clearly the Panther way seems to work better for people who fall into one or more of these categories: have lots of stuff in their Dock, have their Dock set to be very small or hidden, have big screens or just hate mousing down to the Dock to switch apps, like not having to look away from the middle of the screen to switch apps, spend their day switching through a few major applications all the time.
The Jaguar way obviously is preferred by some and hopefully there will be a "LiteSwitch Jaguar" made available at some point for those!

[mrfrost]

I like the new app switcher as well. Just hit command + Tab and point your mouse to the app you need.

I do think there should be more options though.

[Jim_MDP]

Originally posted by mrfrost:
I like the new app switcher as well. Just hit command + Tab and point your mouse to the app you need.

I do think there should be more options though.

Arrow keys work as well.

They also are great in Expos�.

And Cipher� quit whining, ya big whiney whiner.

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by OAW:
Actually one of the oft-mentioned criticisms of the Dock was that it was "for" too many things. App Launcher, App Switcher, Minimized Window Holder, Misc. Shortcut Holder, etc. Personally, I'm glad the CMD + TAB functionality has been changed to its current incarnation. If for no other reason that it gives the Dock one less thing to do. Granted, the Dock can still be used for app switching with the mouse ... or even with the keyboard with "Full Keyboard Access" turned on. But let's face it ... CMD + TAB is the primary keyboard oriented method for switching apps ... and it works much better than the Dock because it is much easier to see and read. The old Dock method would just magnify a Dock icon and display the app name above it. The problem was the next magnified icon could be anywhere in the Dock depending upon how many non-running apps you had sitting there. The current method tabs to the next icon ... always! Additionally, the white text of the app name above the icon in the Dock is typically displayed right above some sort of white background ... a browser window, a Finder window, just about any window has some sort of white background. I found it very difficult to read. The current method and it's use of a gray background with an even darker gray icon and app name highlight color makes seeing and reading the highlighted app a no brainer.

User preferences are to a certain extent a matter of opinion. And I respect yours in this area. However, I daresay that my contention that the current method is much easier to read and thus, easier to use goes beyond a mere opinion.

On top of all of that, the current method just looks way more cool! Now that is an opinion.

OAW

So your argument is that it is easier to see and read, and isn't convoluted by unopened applications and miscellaneous icons?

*I* do not have a problem seeing them. I *know* the order of applications in my Dock. It is very small, and quite full, and I still have no problem with it.

The order also doesn't change - I like the next application I'll change to being predictable. Unlike the current method, which is like shooting fish in a barrel.

You make good points - to some people, the factors you mentioned are important.

To me, they are not. All I want is options. Goddamn Apple for imposing everything without alternatives.

Originally posted by cpac:
I like the new switcher.

My favorite new feature? The ability to quit apps by command tabbling... (just press Q when the app you want to quit is highlighted).

but then again, I also really like the new Finder, so maybe my opinion wont mean squat to some of you...

You could do that in Jaguar too.

Originally posted by mrfrost:
I like the new app switcher as well. Just hit command + Tab and point your mouse to the app you need.

I do think there should be more options though.

Why not just use the Dock, and click? Why do you need a huge banner to do what the Dock is primarily designed for?

[Devin Lane]

Originally posted by k2director:
By the way, I was very excited about Expose when I saw previews of Panther, but in practice, I don't use it much.

I have a 23" Cinema Display. When I have lots of windows scaled down in Expose, it takes me a moment to really figure out which window is which. For instance, the Mail window can look similar to a Word document, which looks similar to AddressBook. At a split-second glance, that is. So it takes me more time to find the app I want through Expose than it does via the Command-Tab switcher.

That is a valid and very annoying issue. Try coding in XCode with 20 windows open. Then use expos� to find the right window. (They all look the same...)

Anyway, a friend of mine posted a feature request to apple about having the window title box (that appears on mouse over) appear all the time, so you could instantly see which window is which. At least have an option to turn it on...

Also, that Quitting shortcut is awesome!!!

[crouchingtiger]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
The order also doesn't change - I like the next application I'll change to being predictable. Unlike the current method, which is like shooting fish in a barrel.

You make good points - to some people, the factors you mentioned are important.

Why not just use the Dock, and click? Why do you need a huge banner to do what the Dock is primarily designed for?

heh, do you know what the expression "shooting fish in a barrel means"?

regardless, the order of apps is not random: it is ordered based on when you last used the app. I spend my day working primarily in Excel, Prism, and Illustrator. I also normally have Mail, Safari, iCal, and Photoshop running in the background. Switching between the first three apps requires only a couple alt-tabs all the time. Having it in the dock got so tedious (constantly having to hit alt-tab 5-6 times) that I hardly used it (used DragThing instead).

Similarly, many people don't want to mouse down to the dock just to switch apps. Being able to mouse near the center of the screen to switch apps is a small but significant difference.

Sure, we all understand that you preferred it the other way and maybe Apple should code in some options. But I'd definitely have to agree with the above poster about the really grating whining...

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by crouchingtiger:
heh, do you know what the expression "shooting fish in a barrel means"?

regardless, the order of apps is not random: it is ordered based on when you last used the app. I spend my day working primarily in Excel, Prism, and Illustrator. I also normally have Mail, Safari, iCal, and Photoshop running in the background. Switching between the first three apps requires only a couple alt-tabs all the time. Having it in the dock got so tedious (constantly having to hit alt-tab 5-6 times) that I hardly used it (used DragThing instead).

Similarly, many people don't want to mouse down to the dock just to switch apps. Being able to mouse near the center of the screen to switch apps is a small but significant difference.

Sure, we all understand that you preferred it the other way and maybe Apple should code in some options. But I'd definitely have to agree with the above poster about the really grating whining...

Yes. Do you? I'll explain it slowly for you - you are unaware of the order that applications will appear in in the marquee, yes? So until you have time to check it out, it basically IS shooting fish in a barrel when you command-tab multiple times in the hopes of getting to another application.

Heh. You'll get an app, but it may not be the one you're after. Understand?

Don't like the whining? Then leave the thread. No skin off my back, none off yours. How 'bout it?

I use many applications at once - so the order IS rather random. I'm not gonna memories the order in which I used the last 10 or so apps (PhotoShop, Illustrator, ImageReady, Final Cut, After Effects, as well as Mail, iCal, ICQ, Adium, MSN, Terminal, Finder, Safari and iTunes).

Seems to me like this is great for somebody who lives in 3 applications. Any more than that and it's just a convolution.

Or can't you see that?

[Appleman]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
Or can't you see that?

[crouchingtiger]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
Yes. Do you? I'll explain it slowly for you - you are unaware of the order that applications will appear in in the marquee, yes? So until you have time to check it out, it basically IS shooting fish in a barrel when you command-tab multiple times in the hopes of getting to another application.

dude, this makes no sense!

look, you're right, it has become a rather pointless discussion. I apologize if I came off as critical (for the second time in this thread). I understand you don't like it, I was just trying to explain why I do. So, I hope you find a good solution for Panther app switching!

shooting fish in a barrel (the meaning I understand, and maybe I'm STILL missing something in which case I apologize yet again!)

[mrfrost]

Originally posted by Cipher13:

Why not just use the Dock, and click? Why do you need a huge banner to do what the Dock is primarily designed for?

Because I hardly ever use the dock. I'm still used to the command + tab method.

[JKT]

After a few days use of Panther I find I'm half with Cipher and half against - the new switcher is visually much better to use than the Dock and easier because of that. However, it is really annoying how it re-orders the app icons every single time you use it. A simple option to have apps appear in the Switcher in the order they are in the Dock and/or another option to have them appear alphabetically by app name would make a big difference!

FWIW, my Dock is rammed full of apps and folders and I use full magnification so my usage is close to that of Cipher's.

[CharlesS]

Bottom line: there should be an option to choose this.

Some people prefer the 10.3 switcher, and certainly it will make Windows switchers feel more at home. But for my own use (note emphasis) the 10.2 switcher worked more efficiently. I found myself just going cmd-tab, cmd-tab, cmd-tab to get where I want, whereas with 10.3, I cmd-tab, look, analyze, find my app, cmd-tab, cmd-tab, cmd-tab. It was faster for me in 10.2.

[6116]

I'm with you, Cipher. I realize everybody uses the Dock differently, but if you have it visible with all running apps, 10.2 made way more sense. Switching in 10.3, while I know that the order is predictable, isn't nearly as easy as just looking at the Dock. That said, in typing this message, I've just wasted more time than I ever could have saved using my preferred method of switching. I wonder if the 10.2 dock would work if I extracted it from the old install discs.

[sniffer]

I really like the way hidden apps stacks to the far right in the floating "app switcher window". Also the apps get sorted in the correct order by when they was last last in front, which wasn't possible with the old static "dock" method. Nifty IMO.

[kcmac]

Options are nice. Maybe this is something Apple could add or something like Tinker Tool could hack for the short term.

I have found that now I only use the dock to start an app. I use command tab or expos� to switch.

While I run many apps at one time, I don't usually have more than one window at a time open in that app. (Except for text edit or word.)

I prefer the large centered command tab option over full magnification of the dock because the growing and rolling icons are more difficult for me to follow and choose in the dock.

I like these revisions as they work well for me. Especially on the small PB screen.

[alphasubzero949]

Speaking of Expose, anyone try Option-tabbing while Expose is activated?

[d4nth3m4n]

Originally posted by alphasubzero949:
Speaking of Expose, anyone try Option-tabbing while Expose is activated?

stupid back button. sry, double post

[d4nth3m4n]

Originally posted by alphasubzero949:
Speaking of Expose, anyone try Option-tabbing while Expose is activated?

try cmd tabbing? i get the app switcher there, but when i select an app i just get the error tone... hmm. Bug?

[alphasubzero949]

Oops, my bad. You don't have to hold down option. Just activate Expose, and you can tab around...you get the same effect.


If you hold down Cmd-tab while Expose is activated, you can still switch apps, but if an app has open windows and you select it, it will do the same effect as just tabbing around.

To illustrate this, open two windows in one app, and have some open windows in another. Activate Expose. Now tab around. The app's windows are grouped together.

[SomeToast]

Originally posted by kent m:
the "new" app switching method is a dumbed down rip-off of LiteSwitchX from Proteron. LiteSwitchX did exactly the same thing as the Jag app switching with more & better options.

Not this again.

[Toyin]

Originally posted by Thor:
After installing drivers for my intellimouse Explorer, I was surprised that by default the scrollwheel button was mapped to display the app switcher.

Click once switches to next app.
Click and hold brings up the switcher.
Scroll wheel moves between apps.
Let go makes the switch.

Very slick.

Whoa that is slick. I just dumped USB overdrive and installed the intellimouse drivers. This is now my default method for switching apps.

As for the switcher, I like the new implementation but I have to agree with Cipher on the order. I like having the same order each time.

[Gul Banana]

It's interesting. I used to use the dock for application launching, switching, and managing windows, and thought it was fine.. but then within a couple of days I got Panther and discovered LaunchBar, and now I never use the Dock at all. I like the new app switcher, LaunchBar is GREAT for... well, launcing, and Expos� takes care of window management. Apple have implemented themselves into a corner.

[booboo]

Originally posted by alphasubzero949:
Speaking of Expose, anyone try Option-tabbing while Expose is activated?

That's actually quite a beautiful thing to behold . . .

I know, I know, I need a life . . .

[ryaxnb]

Originally posted by 6116:
I'm with you, Cipher. I realize everybody uses the Dock differently, but if you have it visible with all running apps, 10.2 made way more sense. Switching in 10.3, while I know that the order is predictable, isn't nearly as easy as just looking at the Dock. That said, in typing this message, I've just wasted more time than I ever could have saved using my preferred method of switching. I wonder if the 10.2 dock would work if I extracted it from the old install discs.

Ask Unsanity. Seriously.