[jonasmac]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Wasn't he dead at that point?

He wasn't dead. He was still around at the very end of the episode. Peter and Future Hiro mentioned that they needed to watch out for him.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Wasn't he dead at that point?

Yeah, he was. I guess Hiro was distracted.

Originally Posted by jonasmac 

He wasn't dead. He was still around at the very end of the episode. Peter and Future Hiro mentioned that they needed to watch out for him.

That was a reference to the Haitian, who would have blocked their powers had Mohinder not taken him out.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by jonasmac 

Hiro probably couldn't sense that Parkman and his cronies were there.

I'm not getting how Hiro would "sense" them, beyond the normal means I mean.

[BrunoBruin]

Originally Posted by mdc 

Has Sylar been Nathan the entire time?

Sylar told Peter that Nathan had already betrayed "his kind" when Sylar killed him, so Nathan had to have been in Congress or the presidency long enough to propose or advance the legislation that led to the rounding-up of mutants (sorry, but the whole storyline is so "X-Men" that I can't help but think of them that way). My take is that Sylar killed Nathan AFTER Nathan became president. It's just simpler storytelling than having Sylar kill him earlier and then plot and scheme his way into the presidency, deceiving the Haitian and Matt and Mohinder (not that THAT would be hard) and everyone else the entire time.

Great episode. I KNEW Nathan was going to turn out to be Sylar from the painting Sylar did after killing Isaac, but I still jumped off the couch when it was revealed.

[Mithras]

What was that painting? I think I was distracted and not looking at that point.

[jokell82]

The painting - Isaac painted Nathan as the president. Linderman had it in his "art" room and showed it to Nathan. After Sylar killed Isaac, he painted the exact same painting, only he was in it instead of Nathan.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by BrunoBruin 

Sylar told Peter that Nathan had already betrayed "his kind" when Sylar killed him, so Nathan had to have been in Congress or the presidency long enough to propose or advance the legislation that led to the rounding-up of mutants (sorry, but the whole storyline is so "X-Men" that I can't help but think of them that way).

Yeah, I was calling them mutants Monday night too. The Mutant Registration Act was essentially what we saw in that future. I don't fault the show for going that route, though, especially because it's not really going to turn out that way.

[BrunoBruin]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

After Sylar killed Isaac, he painted the exact same painting, only he was in it instead of Nathan.

The writers did something very clever here: while Sylar absorbed Isaac's precognitive power, he clearly did NOT have his artistic talent. To me this says he does not absorb a victim's skills, memories, personality, etc. - which means it would have been even more difficult to impersonate Nathan for any length of time without someone catching on.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by BrunoBruin 

The writers did something very clever here: while Sylar absorbed Isaac's precognitive power, he clearly did NOT have his artistic talent. To me this says he does not absorb a victim's skills, memories, personality, etc. - which means it would have been even more difficult to impersonate Nathan for any length of time without someone catching on.

It was his first time using that skill, so that's probably why he wasn't that good at it. He impersonated Nathan for years, so I'm not sure why you would think people were catching on.

Hell, not even Parkman knew and he's a mind reader!


Edit - BTW, the only thing Sylar takes is the ability. He opens up their heads and can "see" how the ability works, and is able to change himself to copy their ability. So he wouldn't "absorb" any of their other qualities.

[Randman]

No, when Peter used the drawing, his skill matched Isaac's perfectly, even able to complete the painting.

I think it's that Syler's insane so his perspective is different hence the twisted painting.

[jokell82]

But Peter doesn't have the same power as Sylar...

[Nodnarb]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

Hell, not even Parkman knew and he's a mind reader!

While I agree with everything else you said, I believe this part is incorrect. Sylar has some way of stopping Parkman from reading his thoughts. Otherwise, Parkman would undoubtedly know the situation. I am not sure exactly what he is doing, but perhaps some power he has gained interferes with Parkman's ability?

Originally Posted by jokell82 

But Peter doesn't have the same power as Sylar...

I was under the impression that they have the exact same power (ability to absorb other's powers) the only difference being that Sylar has to cut open their heads, while Peter only has to be near them (and then retain the power for later use).

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by Nodnarb 

While I agree with everything else you said, I believe this part is incorrect. Sylar has some way of stopping Parkman from reading his thoughts. Otherwise, Parkman would undoubtedly know the situation. I am not sure exactly what he is doing, but perhaps some power he has gained interferes with Parkman's ability?

Why would you think that? He hasn't used that ability before, and he didn't kill the Haitian to gain that ability...

Originally Posted by Nodnarb 

I was under the impression that they have the exact same power (ability to absorb other's powers) the only difference being that Sylar has to cut open their heads, while Peter only has to be near them (and then retain the power for later use).

The effect of their powers *seems* to be the same, but they do not have the same powers. They have explained how Sylar's ability works, but Peter's is still really a mystery. We don't know if he has to witness the abilities before he can use them, or if just being in another hero's presence is enough. We don't know if he can absorb more than their ability (i.e. Isaac's ability to paint, not just paint the future). We don't know if Peter's abilities are dependent on the original hero's life.

So we know a lot about Sylar, but we don't know much about Peter.

[Nodnarb]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

Why would you think that? He hasn't used that ability before, and he didn't kill the Haitian to gain that ability...

Then how do you explain Parkman not knowing a thing? Yeah, they depicted him as a kind of dim-witted cop before, but c'mon, Sylar would have to constantly be aware of his thoughts, and think just like Nathan. He wouldn't even be able to think "Oh man I hope that is what nathan would do" or any of his regular evil thoughts.

There has to be some sort of explanation for that.

Good point with the Peter/Sylar stuff, I guess I just assumed it was the same power...the last episode with the blue/red "orbs" (or whatever the heck that was, I'm sure it'll be explalined) seems to agree with the theory that they are 2 halves of the same power. Your way makes sense to though, since my theory takes a lot of assuming.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by Nodnarb 

Then how do you explain Parkman not knowing a thing? Yeah, they depicted him as a kind of dim-witted cop before, but c'mon, Sylar would have to constantly be aware of his thoughts, and think just like Nathan. He wouldn't even be able to think "Oh man I hope that is what nathan would do" or any of his regular evil thoughts.

There has to be some sort of explanation for that.

Honestly, I think it was just overlooked.

However, Parkman never actually was shown with Sylar in disguise until he revealed himself. So it's possible that Parkman was just never close enough to read his thoughts.

Also it appears that Parkman has honed in his power in the future, and is able to do more than just read current thoughts. He was able to read memories from Hiro without Hiro having to think about it. Which is another reason I think either it was overlooked or Parkman never actually got close to Sylar...

[Wiskedjak]

Could be that Sylar made sure the Haitian was around whenever he was near Parkman.

[Randman]

Could be that Parkman had no reason to read "Nathan's" mind.

[Railroader]

I wonder if Peter was able to absorb the Haitian's powers? And could Sylar "read" the mind of a dead person.

[jokell82]

I think most of his victims are dead when he "reads" their powers, but they haven't been dead for long.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Could be that Sylar made sure the Haitian was around whenever he was near Parkman.

That's what I would have guessed. He could have told him the Haitian had to be there for National Security reasons.

[RAILhead]

But wouldn't that mean that the Haitian was in on things with Sylar?

[BrunoBruin]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

He impersonated Nathan for years, so I'm not sure why you would think people were catching on.

But remember, even dim Mohinder figured out that Sylar was not who he was claiming to be, when they were traveling together. I think it would take a serious leap of imagination if the writers want us to believe he was impersonating Nathan for five years without slipping. The writers would be asking us to believe that Sylar got up every morning for five years as Nathan, went to work, campaigned, gave speeches and kissed babies, while nobody suspected a thing. And to what end? There's also the issue of keeping up the visual illusion of Nathan, since it's been established that Candice wasn't actually a shape-shifter, but just created the mental illusion that she is someone/thing else. And HRG saw through Candice immediately when she impersonated Claire, so the illusion is not perfect.

As I said, it's just cleaner storytelling if Sylar killed Nathan recently. For one thing, as president, Nathan is now a more immediate threat to mutants, which would spur Sylar to kill him, and for another, he's now an immediate path to power.

Further complication: if the Haitian was always in Nathan's presence...wouldn't he have supressed Sylar's ability to appear as Nathan? I have to go back and re-watch the episode to see when, exactly, they appeared together.

[smacintush]

The Haitian can choose who to suppress, it's not automatic. Remember he suppressed Hiro but not Parkman?

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

But wouldn't that mean that the Haitian was in on things with Sylar?

The Haitian is, literally speaking, a tool. When Benett used him he simply did what he was told. The only time he showed his own will was when he helped Claire, and even that's debatable because he was still acting in accordance with Benett's wishes. He was working for the government, answerable to the president, and it's definitely plausible that he would simply follow orders.

[RAILhead]

Not if "the President" was Sylar because he killed Nathan. That's too far a stretch.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

Not if "the President" was Sylar because he killed Nathan. That's too far a stretch.

Why not? He wouldn't know unless he consciously chose to deprive Sylar (as Nathan) of his powers.

[BrunoBruin]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Why not? He wouldn't know unless he consciously chose to deprive Sylar (as Nathan) of his powers.

Because that's bad storytelling. Nathan/Sylar: "Don't block my powers, okay?" Haitian: "No problem." Since Nathan's power is the ability to fly, wouldn't it seem odd to the Haitian that he had to have it on tap at all times?

I don't know that the Haitian is THAT loyal. Even Matt was letting HRG run a mutant underground railroad.

The maddening thing is, we may never know for sure. If Hiro can prevent that timeline from happening, we'll never see how things were changed. And I would have LOVED to have seen the repercussions of Nathan/Sylar outing himself as a mutant in front of the entire country.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Randman 

Could be that Parkman had no reason to read "Nathan's" mind.

If you were a mind reader, and had access to the President, wouldn't you be tempted to take a peak?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

But wouldn't that mean that the Haitian was in on things with Sylar?

Not necessarily. He can't read minds and he seems to just do what he's been told.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by BrunoBruin 

But remember, even dim Mohinder figured out that Sylar was not who he was claiming to be, when they were traveling together. I think it would take a serious leap of imagination if the writers want us to believe he was impersonating Nathan for five years without slipping. The writers would be asking us to believe that Sylar got up every morning for five years as Nathan, went to work, campaigned, gave speeches and kissed babies, while nobody suspected a thing. And to what end? There's also the issue of keeping up the visual illusion of Nathan, since it's been established that Candice wasn't actually a shape-shifter, but just created the mental illusion that she is someone/thing else. And HRG saw through Candice immediately when she impersonated Claire, so the illusion is not perfect.

As I said, it's just cleaner storytelling if Sylar killed Nathan recently. For one thing, as president, Nathan is now a more immediate threat to mutants, which would spur Sylar to kill him, and for another, he's now an immediate path to power.

Further complication: if the Haitian was always in Nathan's presence...wouldn't he have supressed Sylar's ability to appear as Nathan? I have to go back and re-watch the episode to see when, exactly, they appeared together.

That's all well and good, but the show directly contradicts what you've written. HRG only saw through Candice because of where he was. The illusion was perfect, but HRG knew that Claire would not have been able to be where he was.

It may be "cleaner" storytelling, but that's not the story they've told.

And they never showed the Haitian and Sylar/Nathan in close proximity until after the Haitian was killed.

Edit - I take it back, there is no direct evidence either way as to when Sylar killed Nathan, only that it was "after he had already turned against his own kind" (if we take Sylar at his word). Heroes wiki has it in their explanation: Sylar (future) - Heroes Wiki

[Mithras]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Not necessarily. He can't read minds and he seems to just do what he's been told.

Well, that's a curious thing about the Haitian, right? He can selectively erase memories, not just for time periods but for particular topics. That must mean he can get some sense of what a memory is about, right?

I think it's a TV show and it's perhaps best not to try to parse it too carefully.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Mithras 

Well, that's a curious thing about the Haitian, right? He can selectively erase memories, not just for time periods but for particular topics. That must mean he can get some sense of what a memory is about, right?

But he needs to touch them to do it, and it seems like he can only do it while he's scrubbing their memories.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

If you were a mind reader, and had access to the President, wouldn't you be tempted to take a peak?

Probably, yes. But Sylar is a psychopath. He's a really good liar, and I bet he could conceal from thought the fact that he killed Nathan. He probably thought of himself as the legitimate President, and he'd be able to play the part well enough if he is actually capable of stealing memories along with abilities.

[voodoo]

Man, Sylar's mom was nutty. No wonder Gabriel became a unstable. Him showing remorse and not wanting to kill innocent 'normal' people did strike out the possibility that he is a true psychopath.

He is manipulative and nasty, to logical to be psychopathic. He's more lika an immoral assassin. He knows the difference between right and wrong.

V

[Big Mac]

I don't think psychopathic individuals necessarily cannot tell right from wrong. He knows the difference between right and wrong, yet he draws the bomb in his mother's blood. He is schizophrenic for sure.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Man, Sylar's mom was nutty. No wonder Gabriel became a unstable. Him showing remorse and not wanting to kill innocent 'normal' people did strike out the possibility that he is a true psychopath.

He is manipulative and nasty, to logical to be psychopathic. He's more lika an immoral assassin. He knows the difference between right and wrong.

He has his own idea of right and wrong. He believes that it's right to embrace his destiny, which includes collecting powers, but he also couldn't stomach killing millions of people who had no good reason to die. Those people were completely unrelated to his his quest for greatness, and thus he couldn't justify killing them. Hence his moral dilemma.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

I don't think psychopathic individuals necessarily cannot tell right from wrong. He knows the difference between right and wrong, yet he draws the bomb in his mother's blood. He is schizophrenic for sure.

I don't think many schizophrenics have any problems telling right from wrong.

Psychopaths/sociopaths are amoral and do not see the difference between right and wrong. I think you got your definitions mixed up.

V

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

He has his own idea of right and wrong. He believes that it's right to embrace his destiny, which includes collecting powers, but he also couldn't stomach killing millions of people who had no good reason to die. Those people were completely unrelated to his his quest for greatness, and thus he couldn't justify killing them. Hence his moral dilemma.

True, that's how he sees it. True sociopaths of course, have no idea of right and wrong. They don't bother to make one up, as it serves no purpose for them.

Gabriel/Sylar has shown to be able to show true remorse and also the capacity to feel and know the difference between right and wrong. Normally he chooses to ignore these morals while seeking more power, because he feels very deeply that it has to be his destiny to become great. Nothing should come between him and greatness.

However killing or hurting people without any point, be it for pleasure or by accident, bothers him so much that he is prepared to abandon his amoral search for greatness and just become a humble clockmaker again.

He was genuinely concerned, which rules out sociopaths, which are completely self-absorbed and are incapable of empathy or regret.

After his nutty mother stabs herself (by accident or on purpose), Sylar breaks down. His last hold on reality is dead and his mother's desire was the Gabriel became a great, important, powerful person. The president even.

He has been doing this the whole time to impress his mother, who imprinted the idea in him that he had to become great and he was not good enough as just a lowly worker. She would never accept him as such.

That's my theory

V

[jonasmac]

The most dangerous comic book villains have mommy issues.

[DefaultName]

Yes really good show!


_______________
Amphy
Honda Catalogs and Brochures

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

He has been doing this the whole time to impress his mother, who imprinted the idea in him that he had to become great and he was not good enough as just a lowly worker. She would never accept him as such.

How Hitchcockian.

Anyway, I thought this was a really good episode. That whole soul-searching Sylar thing was pulled off well, both dramatically and from a character development standpoint. I liked the part at the beginning where he called Mohinder, trying to act all buddy-buddy after he'd tortured the poor guy and psychically nailed him to the ceiling. You have to feel for the poor psychopath.

[Cipher13]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

We don't know if he has to witness the abilities before he can use them, or if just being in another hero's presence is enough.

We do now. Peter took Ted's power simply by being in proximity. Ted's power seems to be "on" by default and requires effort to turn off (or directly linked with emotions), so it became evident immediately.

[JoshuaZ]

Poor Ted, he's so going to die this season. Anyone else think so?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by JoshuaZ 

Poor Ted, he's so going to die this season. Anyone else think so?

Probably. I'm more worried for Sylar, though.

[jonasmac]

Originally Posted by JoshuaZ 

Poor Ted, he's so going to die this season. Anyone else think so?

With a beard, Ted looks like a Geico caveman.

[SirCastor]

Originally Posted by JoshuaZ 

Poor Ted, he's so going to die this season. Anyone else think so?

probably at the hands of Sylar. He's served his purpose of giving his power to Peter, now Sylar, being aware of that power, will likely kill Ted to get it.

I wished we could have seen more of the Sylar/Peter showdown in the future. They're the perfect diametric nemises...

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by SirCastor 

I wished we could have seen more of the Sylar/Peter showdown in the future. They're the perfect diametric nemises...

I've wanted to see a Sylar-Peter fight ever since Doctor Who started teaching Peter. That's the closest they've gotten so far. I had high hopes when it went to hiatus with them about to fight, but then Peter just stood there and let Sylar kill him with a little piece of glass.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

I don't think many schizophrenics have any problems telling right from wrong.

Psychopaths/sociopaths are amoral and do not see the difference between right and wrong. I think you got your definitions mixed up.

V

No, I was saying Sylar is definitely schizophrenic. And schizophrenia is a psychotic disorder, if you agree that schizophrenia is defined as a disorder in which the subject periodically loses touch with reality. I think you're thinking of a sociopath.

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

I've wanted to see a Sylar-Peter fight ever since Doctor Who started teaching Peter. That's the closest they've gotten so far. I had high hopes when it went to hiatus with them about to fight, but then Peter just stood there and let Sylar kill him with a little piece of glass.

The battle in Five Years Past was the real deal. It would have been close, but I think Peter would have eventually won that one, if only because he has Hiro's power. The first encounter was a tease and a bit hard to swallow - Sylar can get knocked around by psychokinesis and keep ticking but gets taken out for an extended period by a weak effort from Mohinder? Oh well.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

No, I was saying Sylar is definitely schizophrenic.

No, he hasn't demonstrated any hallucinations or hearing voices. Or even paranoia. He has no particular schizophrenic symptoms.

You don't seem to be completely clear on psychological terms. Sylar/Gabriel is either a psychpath or a sociopath. Same end result, only question is whether he's sick because of his environment mostly (sociopath) or his genetics mostly (psychopath). Since all persons are a result of both genetics and environment, these two terms are for all intents and purposes interchangable..

both have the same clinical description of symptoms, such as poor impulse control, manipulative behavior and described as being "intraspecies predators who use charm, manipulation, intimidation, and violence to control others and to satisfy their own selfish needs. Lacking in conscience and in feelings for others, they take what they want and do as they please, violating social norms and expectations without guilt or remorse".

V

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

No, he hasn't demonstrated any hallucinations or hearing voices. Or even paranoia. He has no particular schizophrenic symptoms.

I beg to differ. He scrawled a message asking for forgiveness in his apartment, yet you don't see that in his dominant personality. When he went to his mother he was trying to be Gabriel, but when she said she wanted him to be someone special instead of a normal watchmaker he reverted to his Sylar state. You can even see the ominous change in his countenance when he puts his mother into the snow globe. I think it's pretty clear that he's schizophrenic, which is a psychotic disorder.

You don't seem to be completely clear on psychological terms. Sylar/Gabriel is either a psychpath or a sociopath. Same end result, only question is whether he's sick because of his environment mostly (sociopath) or his genetics mostly (psychopath). Since all persons are a result of both genetics and environment, these two terms are for all intents and purposes interchangable.

The term psychopath is similar to, but not interchangeable with, the term sociopath, although I will admit that some sources define the two terms in interchangeable ways. A psychopath is simply an individual out of touch with reality, while most sources concur that a sociopath is an individual who exhibits strongly anti-social behavior. I took a lot of psychology and sociology in college, but you don't need a formal academic background to use a dictionary. Instead of being argumentative and relying on the arrogant supposition of European intellectual superiority, please look up the terms.