[Goldfinger]

Hi there,

As you all know it's will still be a while before we see Intel based PowerMacs. Right now I'm using a maxed out PowerBook G4 867mhz which is getting a bit long in the tooth for me and I also don't really need the portability anymore. So I was thinking of getting myself a temporary upgrade untill my top of the line Intel PowerMac arives. As a student I don't really have the funds to get me a full blown G5 at the moment so a small upgrade to a dual CPU G4 would be nice I guess and offer me serious speed boost compared to my 867mhz G4. Responsiveness is the most important thing as it gives the illusion of speed. I don't really care about faster rendering etc. It's good enough for me already on my 867mhz PBook (in things like Photoshop and Final Cut). But responsiveness on this machine isn't really good enough anymore.

The machine I'm looking at is the Dual 1Ghz Quicksilver. The 2002 machine. I want this one since it has 48bit ATA support (meaning +128GB hard drive support).
It'll be configured as follows:

Dual 1Ghz G4
1.5 GB RAM
2x160 internal HD
1x160GB and 1x60GB FireWire HDs
FireWire + USB2 PCI card
Radeon 9600 or other cheapish Core Video/Image compatible card.

Now what I wanted to know is if this machine will give me a serious boost in speed ? Also how noisy is a QuickSilver ? Can it be compared to an AGP PowerMac G4 (I used to have a G4/400 PowerMac). I want to stay away from MDD powermacs as they are notoriously loud. I'll probably replace the stock fans with low noise fans. Also, are there any known issues with Quicksilvers that I should know about ?

thanks

[jettyboy]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

Hi there,

As you all know it's will still be a while before we see Intel based PowerMacs. Right now I'm using a maxed out PowerBook G4 867mhz which is getting a bit long in the tooth for me and I also don't really need the portability anymore. So I was thinking of getting myself a temporary upgrade untill my top of the line Intel PowerMac arives. As a student I don't really have the funds to get me a full blown G5 at the moment so a small upgrade to a dual CPU G4 would be nice I guess and offer me serious speed boost compared to my 867mhz G4. Responsiveness is the most important thing as it gives the illusion of speed. I don't really care about faster rendering etc. It's good enough for me already on my 867mhz PBook (in things like Photoshop and Final Cut). But responsiveness on this machine isn't really good enough anymore.

The machine I'm looking at is the Dual 1Ghz Quicksilver. The 2002 machine. I want this one since it has 48bit ATA support (meaning +128GB hard drive support).
It'll be configured as follows:

Dual 1Ghz G4
1.5 GB RAM
2x160 internal HD
1x160GB and 1x60GB FireWire HDs
FireWire + USB2 PCI card
Radeon 9600 or other cheapish Core Video/Image compatible card.

Now what I wanted to know is if this machine will give me a serious boost in speed ? Also how noisy is a QuickSilver ? Can it be compared to an AGP PowerMac G4 (I used to have a G4/400 PowerMac). I want to stay away from MDD powermacs as they are notoriously loud. I'll probably replace the stock fans with low noise fans. Also, are there any known issues with Quicksilvers that I should know about ?

thanks

Aloha, I have the exact machine you are considering with a single HD, and it it very fast running Tiger. It has never given me a problem in the 4 years I've had it. It even seems faster then my fathers G5 except when using Final Cut, then the G5 wins. This is a great machine I don't think you will be sorry if you get it. I've seen them on Ebay and craigs list for between 600 and 1000 dollars (US). It's a good deal.

[P]

You will notice the dual CPUs, and of course all the other things help a little as well, but IMHO the boost is not large enough for the money you'd have to spend - especially if you add in a decent display. Of course, you might have some of these things lying around, like a monitor, and in that case you could get the price down, but... The iMacs are awesome machines. At $1299, you'd get most of what you're asking for, plus a great display and a better CPU. You lose the second CPU and there is less RAM and HD space, but in my book, it's worth it. That's what I'd do - that or stay with the Powerbook.

The machine is rather noisy. All the dual G4s are, more or less.

[Goldfinger]

jettyboy Thanks for the response. The reasonably low price is one of the reasons I'm considering it. You can easily get one for 1000 euros here. There aren't too much Macs on ebay over here unfortunately. And since my PowerBook can easily fetch 1000 euros over here I think it's a pretty good deal.

PI've been thinking about an iMac as well but I've been hesitant since I like the expandability of a PowerMac and I really want dual CPUs. But a 20" iMac is 1830 euro's in basic config while a 20" Cinema Display is 720 euros. And I can get a Dual QS for almost zero euro's when I sell my PowerBook. So I'd only be paying for the Cinema Display. Maybe less if I can find a second hand Cinema Display (I have a 15" studio display that I can easily sell for 200 euros as well as it is quite rare, the ones with the arm that goes up and down). I also would like to have a seperate display since I would just keep that display. If I buy an iMac I'd be throwing away a perfectly good display when I sell it... It's really a tough choice as the iMac is indeed a very nice machine (don't really like the look but that's less of an issue). I'm also not looking for sheer processing power, I have no doubt that the 2.0 ghz iMac is faster than that Dual QS, but is it more responsive ?

It's a difficult decision

Thanks for the input already.

[P]

Your thinking is to buy the Cinema Display and use that for your future computer as well, is that correct? Because if you trade your current machine for a basic dual G4 and get that Cinema Display as well, then I can understand where you're going. But with the list you have at the top - is that 4 HDs of different sizes? - and a rather large amount of RAM, you're going to have to expand any Mac you get quite a bit.

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by P

Your thinking is to buy the Cinema Display and use that for your future computer as well, is that correct? Because if you trade your current machine for a basic dual G4 and get that Cinema Display as well, then I can understand where you're going.

Yep, that's the plan.

But with the list you have at the top - is that 4 HDs of different sizes? - and a rather large amount of RAM, you're going to have to expand any Mac you get quite a bit.

I already have the Firewire Drives, the internals are quite cheap, 2x160gb would cost me 200 euros a gig of ram extra is around 150. I'm not using a Mac with less than 1GB of RAM. I Photoshop a lot. I have 1GB now (max in the PowerBook) and that's not enough sometimes. A USB2 card is 19 euros.

[Al G]

I think there is probably variation from machine to machine and also in people's perception, but it's safe to say the Quicksilver machines are quite a bit louder than the G4/400 you have experience with.

I have a dual 1GHz QS and it is really very loud. But the thing is, while loud, the noise is not the least bit annoying. It is just the whoosh of air with no fan whine. It's like a white noise generator.
Also, the noise is pretty deceiving at first because when you first power on the machine, it is impressively quiet--almost silent. Over the course of several minutes, the noise increases so gradually that you don't even notice it until you leave the room and come back. But after the initial ramp-up it is many times louder than any of the HP windows machines I have.

That's just how my machine behaves and as I said, I suspect there is varation from machine to machine.

Also, I don't know how common this is but my processor card failed about 10 days before Applecare was to expire. Applecare to the rescue and I now have a new factory processor card.

[Goldfinger]

Thanks.

Anyone with a dual 1Ghz care to post an Xbench result with all apps closed ? I know it's not that reliable but it's something.

[P]

Adding up your figures, you'd spend 1000 on the new Mac, 720 on the display, 200 on the HDs and 150 on the RAM - 2100 - on a machine that you essentially intend to throw out in 2 years time. You can't reuse the RAM, because it won't be the same standard. You might be able to use the HDs, but you'd have to buy an extra IDE board for the Mac-Intel which might not be all that easy. You can use the display, but the way display prices have been dropping - see Dell's entry into the market, for instance - a 20" Cinema isn't going to be worth 720 in 2 years time. It's your money, and I can understand wanting a dual, but personally I'd stick with the Powerbook or get the cheapest iMac G5 and bump the RAM a bit. In two years, that machine can either be a cool second computer - hang it on the wall! - or sold at a decent price.

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by P

Adding up your figures, you'd spend 1000 on the new Mac, 720 on the display, 200 on the HDs and 150 on the RAM - 2100 - on a machine that you essentially intend to throw out in 2 years time. You can't reuse the RAM, because it won't be the same standard. You might be able to use the HDs, but you'd have to buy an extra IDE board for the Mac-Intel which might not be all that easy. You can use the display, but the way display prices have been dropping - see Dell's entry into the market, for instance - a 20" Cinema isn't going to be worth 720 in 2 years time. It's your money, and I can understand wanting a dual, but personally I'd stick with the Powerbook or get the cheapest iMac G5 and bump the RAM a bit. In two years, that machine can either be a cool second computer - hang it on the wall! - or sold at a decent price.

I look at it a bit differently. Dual 1Ghz Quicksilvers go for around 1000 euro's here. My PowerBooks for the same so I'm essentially just trading in the PowerBook for a Quicksilver. The Cinema Display is the biggest cost but I'm keeping it anyway when I buy my next Intel based Mac so I'm not going to sell it in 2 years, so it doesn't really matter what it's worth in 2 years. The hard drive space, well I need it anyway, I'm short already. And even if there aren't IDE boards in a few years, which I doubt, then there will always be FireWire or USB enclosures. Hard drives aren't something you throw away either. Only the RAM yeah, that's a cost of 150 that you throw away in 2 years. And either way, I will be keeping the Quicksilver around as a home network server when I retire it.

[P]

I get that you don't look at it that way, but maybe you should. Compare the cost of the various options. I think you'll find that the cost of having a 20" display and a dual these 2 years is going to be mighty big. I'm not saying that an iMac is the way to go, but it is a relevant comparison. Another might be a Mac mini with the 20" display - that is also the perfect machine to make a headless server out of in a couple of years.

IME, picking up a used Mac and upgrading it is rarely a cost-effective proposition. It's FUN, don't get me wrong, but you should be aware of how expensive your experimentation is.

BTW, does anyone know if that Powerbook model can take more than the 1 gig RAM Apple specifies? It has 2 slots, and there are 1 GB SD-RAM sticks today, so it might work if the memory controller isn't too cheap in its design.

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by P

I get that you don't look at it that way, but maybe you should. Compare the cost of the various options. I think you'll find that the cost of having a 20" display and a dual these 2 years is going to be mighty big. I'm not saying that an iMac is the way to go, but it is a relevant comparison. Another might be a Mac mini with the 20" display - that is also the perfect machine to make a headless server out of in a couple of years.

IME, picking up a used Mac and upgrading it is rarely a cost-effective proposition. It's FUN, don't get me wrong, but you should be aware of how expensive your experimentation is.

BTW, does anyone know if that Powerbook model can take more than the 1 gig RAM Apple specifies? It has 2 slots, and there are 1 GB SD-RAM sticks today, so it might work if the memory controller isn't too cheap in its design.

I would buy a Mac mini if it weren't that limited in terms of expandability. The 2,5" Hard drives are really limiting, same problem with the PowerBook now.

I've never seen 1GB PC133 sticks, only 512MB. Got a link ?

[P]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

I would buy a Mac mini if it weren't that limited in terms of expandability. The 2,5" Hard drives are really limiting, same problem with the PowerBook now.

I've never seen 1GB PC133 sticks, only 512MB. Got a link ?

Since I'm in Sweden, I saw them at my regular online shop, but they were Kingston modules. Expensive, though.

[mousehouse]

I'd say that with the prices of used Mac gear still running this high in Europe it doesn't make sense to invest in it. The display is nice and will last you quite a while, but that dual is just too expensive.

There are dual 1.8's for sale that go for not very much more than what you're prepared to pay for your QS, but they are built with modern things as FW800, Bluetooth and SATA right out of the box. That G5 will keep you up & running for quite a while.

Here's one for €1400 that includes 1.2GB of RAM and a screen as well: http://www.tweedehandsmac.nl/classif...?mid=1384&s=nl

[OreoCookie]

What about a used iMac? They sell for around 1000 € (17"). Add some more RAM, maybe another harddrive and voilà, you have a quiet Mac which is about as fast if not faster than your dual Quicksilver.

Plus, iMacs are much quieter than QuickSilvers.

PS If you insist, you can use the screen spanning hack and buy a second display

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by mousehouse

I'd say that with the prices of used Mac gear still running this high in Europe it doesn't make sense to invest in it. The display is nice and will last you quite a while, but that dual is just too expensive.

There are dual 1.8's for sale that go for not very much more than what you're prepared to pay for your QS, but they are built with modern things as FW800, Bluetooth and SATA right out of the box. That G5 will keep you up & running for quite a while.

Here's one for €1400 that includes 1.2GB of RAM and a screen as well: http://www.tweedehandsmac.nl/classif...?mid=1384&s=nl

Tweedehandsmac.nl doesn't support direct linking. But I found it anyway, well that's indeed very very cheap. There aren't many oppertunities like that tho'. Most duals go +2000 euros. If had the funds at hand right now I would do it because that's a great deal that machine but it'll be another 1 or 2 months before I have funds available to upgrade.

Great site I always use it to find second hand stuff, best one I know of in the benelux.

[mousehouse]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

Tweedehandsmac.nl doesn't support direct linking. But I found it anyway, well that's indeed very very cheap. There aren't many oppertunities like that tho'. Most duals go +2000 euros. If had the funds at hand right now I would do it because that's a great deal that machine but it'll be another 1 or 2 months before I have funds available to upgrade.

Great site I always use it to find second hand stuff, best one I know of in the benelux.

Agreed. Only problem with it (and marktplaats.nl) is that people tend to base there prices on the other offered Mac's, thereby asking way too much for there old machine. Old G3 iMacs have asking prices of €200-€300! Duals for > €2000 is rediculous as you can get a new one (or refurbished) for about the same price.

Anyway, if Apple releases a dual-dual G5 that will have people swapping there DP's. I'd think you'll see more G5's online. The DP1.8 will be a very nice machine for your workload I think. If you can't wait you can always get an iMac G5 for little more than what you're prepared to pay for the QS and it includes the screen. You could sell that after a year or so and upgrade / swap to whatever fits your needs at that point.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by mousehouse

If you can't wait you can always get an iMac G5 for little more than what you're prepared to pay for the QS and it includes the screen. You could sell that after a year or so and upgrade / swap to whatever fits your needs at that point.

You can find iMac G5s for 1000 € in Germany, so budget-wise, they'd be the same. (I guess the same is true in the Netherlands and Belgium.)