[Gee4orce]

Originally posted by Millennium:

The Bad:
User-Agent: The UA string lies about 50 different ways, no matter how you slice and dice it. The "like Gecko" crap is the worst, though claiming to also be Netscape is pretty bad too. They do add "Safari" to their UA string, which might be nice, but I'd prefer that they keep with a Konqueror-derived string (this makes it easier to sniff by engine). But I will not be forgiving Apple for polluting the Gecko UA-space anytime soon. I mean, seriously; that's adding injury to insult in a major way.

Read David Hyatt's weblog for a comprehensive retort to this complaint. Basically, it boils down to 'do you want it to work with DHTML web sites, or not ?'. Personally I hate any form of browser detection - we should code to the standards, or as close to it as the common denomenator allows, and be damned.

And I just wanted to say - 'Safari, so-goodie'

[[APi]TheMan]

Originally posted by poocat:
second, and MUCH more importantly: tabs. apple can figure something out, but as another poster said, they NEED to hear how much you like tabs. just posting here doesn't do it. send them a LETTER. that's right. not a rant, a serious explanation of why you like one-window browsing. if we tell them what we're thinking, they're more likely to listen.

I sure hope that implementing tabbed browsing doesn't interfere with Apple fixing/improving/maturing other neccessary Safari features.

I, for one, couldn't care less if tabbed browsing is implemented or not, and I hope that its implementation doesn't make me suffer. If people want tabs they can use CHIMERA until Safari has tabs. So many Mac fools whine and whine and whine, quiet up already and wait a few days, weeks, or months. It'll get there.

Ugh.

[TheIceMan]

Safari Enhancer 1.0 is available. It's described as:
"a small application for activating some hidden features in Safari. Currently, this programme can activate the Safari debugging menu, which allows you to do tasks such as opening pages in other browsers, changing what browser Safari identifies itself as, and tweaking how security certificates are handled. In addition, Safari Enhancer allows you to set a minimum font size for all pages..."

FINALLY, I can see and correct the small font problem!

[kovacs]

Originally posted by TheIceMan:
Safari Enhancer 1.0 is available. It's described as:
"a small application for activating some hidden features in Safari. Currently, this programme can activate the Safari debugging menu, which allows you to do tasks such as opening pages in other browsers, changing what browser Safari identifies itself as, and tweaking how security certificates are handled. In addition, Safari Enhancer allows you to set a minimum font size for all pages..."

FINALLY, I can see and correct the small font problem!

Thanks that's a great app, I can now set a minimum font size, Great !

[TC]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Google Search Field: I hate extra search fields. Give me Gecko's Keywords any day. If for only one reason: the Google search field only does Google, but I can make many search keywords for different sites. I use about four different keywords on a daily basis. OmniWeb has their own, similar technology which isn't quite as easy to set up, but just as easy to use once you've done that.

Well, you can turn it off using the View menu.
What exactly are Gecko's keywords? Is that the shortucts, so you can type g banana as the url and it will expand it to search for banana using google?

Toolbar: This isn't a proper OSX toolbar. It looks nice enough, but it doesn't feel right, and it can't be hidden. That's not a Good Thing. It feels as though the interface for this must have been in the works well before NSToolbar (Cocoa's name for their now-famous toolbars) arrived on the scene.

You can hide it under the View menu or using cmd - |.


I love the new bookmarks but the final version should have some kind of filtering. This works really well on Mozilla. This would work well for the history as well.

[poocat]

that's what i'm saying... you're just responding in kind.

Originally posted by [APi]TheMan:
I sure hope that implementing tabbed browsing doesn't interfere with Apple fixing/improving/maturing other neccessary Safari features.

i have faith in apple to fix the bugs, to make it render better, to adopt the keychain, all sorts of stuff. it's a browser, and they'll continue to make it a better one. but when we're talking about new features, then that's something we should write to them about.

i know you don't use tabs (because you said so) and that's FINE.

i don't use forward buttons. you don't see me clamoring for them to be removed so apple can stop wasting time and focus on more important stuff... there's a ton of features i don't care about that are included in every browser. that's not the point of my post...

also, what i'm saying is talk to them, not complain. it's beta, it's coming. chill... and we're already back in chimera if it's that important. if it's not, then we're just chilling and enjoying the new toy. and filling out bug reports.


it's a nice day.

poocat.

[kovacs]

I wonder if we will ever see another 0.9 beta version before safari goes final. There are some serious bugs, the fact that it can delete your home folder when you option click a link and the fact that some people can't open any https sites ( I can't log in to .mac, versiontracker or hotmail, ... ). The good news is that I haven't found that much rendering bugs, most bugs are in the app itself. Not bad for a beta but for now I will still use chimera, I will probably switch to safari with the next beta or the next 1.0 release.

[Simon]

Originally posted by kovacs:
There are some serious bugs, the fact that it can delete your home folder when you option click a link

Why should it do that? Would you care to back to that story up as I haven't seen it being mentioned anywhere yet?

[clebin]

Originally posted by KidRed:
Remember this is like iTunes and other iApps.

-So you can't rearrange any icons, should be no surprise there as you can't on any brushed metal app.

-Can you drag an mp3 into a playlist? Should be no surprise that fodlers act the same way here.

-Isn't dock aware? Try resizing the window.

-There's no hide/show button on any brushed metal apps.

-You cant customize any toolbars in any brushedmetal apps so the view menu is the only way around this for now I guess.

-Again, with fonts or images only, you can't do that on any BM app.

So basically, think of iTunes or addressbook when you use Safari and I think you'll stress a little less.

I'm not sure whether your argument centres on Safari being like iTunes or on the limitations of brushed metal apps. Brushed metal can use the standard toolbar with all of the features you mentioned. You can use metalifizer in fact (I think that's its name) to run apps like Mail or Chimera as brushed metal.

The other argument is that it's just like iTunes et al. It isn't, and anyway, if you took one iApp as a standard for other iApps the others are probably as non-standard as they are from Apple's main HI guidelines. I don't mind them breaking their guidelines, but it needs to be for a better reason.

You say the folders in iTunes work the folders in Safari - ok, but I'd atleast use different icons in the left and right panes to distinguish their behaviour. iTunes doesn't have folders in its right-hand pane, so that's a difference for a start..

These are issues you get into more and more if you don't follow guidelines. If Apple keeps reinventing the user-interface with each app, it'll become impossible for them to write an app that's predictable and intuitive from the outset. Anyway, that's just my opinion.

But I still like it alot - I was hardly stressing, was I?

Chris


EDIT: Oh, and on that Dock point... Try closing all the windows then clicking on the Dock icon (lefthand Dock placement). Believe it or not I actually know how to resize a window.

[kovacs]

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...hreadid=139409

It seems Apple is aware of the bug, I think this is a pretty serious bug and they probably want to fix it as soon as possible so maybe we will see a minor update in a few days...

[Simon]

Originally posted by kovacs:
It seems Apple is aware of the bug, I think this is a pretty serious bug and they probably want to fix it as soon as possible so maybe we will see a minor update in a few days...

Thanks for the quick info. Maybe we'll get an update download from SU for Safari pretty soon, at least I hope so.

[Kiddo311]

http://discussions.info.apple.com/[email protected]

doesn't look nice, i've backup'ed my home folder

[Griggsy]

Originally posted by gunnar:
Since this is only a beta I am confident 1.0 will be better than anything out there and we'll see the same kind of jumps as with the iApps in each successive milestone.

Way to go Apple. Mac users are that bit happier and if it's true that the source is going public, KHTML (linux) users will be happy too.

Agreed the only real problems I've noticed apart from the ones mentioned here is flash playback is chronic for an X browser and the speed issues seem to be with image rendering rather than site access (seems to want to bring in images and HTML all at the same time and won't render til its happy with everything its got)

[Griggsy]

Originally posted by Griggsy:
Agreed the only real problems I've noticed apart from the ones mentioned here is flash playback is chronic for an X browser and the speed issues seem to be with image rendering rather than site access (seems to want to bring in images and HTML all at the same time and won't render til its happy with everything its got)

Oh and I forgot to mention the colour rendering is excellent

[maxelson]

Here's a question. Please forgive if this has already been addressed. If it has, poke me and I'll hunt through this behemoth of a thread.
So, we've got this issue with being able to access secure sites from behind a firewall. For those of you who are unfamiliar with this issue: you can't. BIG problem for me. HUGE, in fact. A deal breaker.
Anyone got any ideas/ workarounds?
And really, this is getting absurd. No Backup support for folks behind a firewall. No iDisk Util support. Could Apple REALLY be skipping this?
Also, before you say it, no, tweaking the firewall is NOT an option as it would literally take an act of Congress.
Sigh. Anyone?

[shortcipher]

i just ran a frame rate test of Flash MX in Safari, and it seems to top out at around 11/12fps, I wonder, could this have anything to do with the fact that Macromedia's default frame rate in Flash is 12?

I sincerely hope they sort this out.

[TC]

Has anyone else noticed the shortcuts for accessing bookmarks in the Bookmarks bar?
Hit CMD-1 to CMD-9 to access them.

Just realised that there are 3 seprate places for storing bookmarks:
Bookmarks Bar
Bookmarks Menu
All Bookmarks

You can specify that the Bookmarks Menu should include your bookmarks bar but the only way to access all your other bookmarks is to view all bookmarks.

They should be accessible form at least the Bookmarks Menu. For me they should also show up as a menu if you hold the bookmark button on the bookmarks bar.

I really like the full page layout for organizing bookmarks but i wish they would give us a drawer for when we only want to access the bookmarks (or History). As I said before, put a filter box on it just like Mozilla and it will be great. On the main bookmarks page they could give us a filter which works just like the iCal filter, with some way to specify if it should search history or bookmarks or both.

Finally, I wouldn't be too annoyed if Apple didn't give us Tabs exactly like Chimera. I would be quite happy if they used another drawer for showing the pages. This way you could have a much bigger icon showing you the contents of each page instead of just using the small favicon.
I think the most important thing is being able to access multiple pages in one window rather than having to have tabs exactly like Chimera.

Does anyone have an address to send ideas specific to Safari. I don't really want to send these ideas as bugs and can't find a specific feedback page on Apple's site, do I just have to use the general OS X feedback page?

[sinebubble]

Safari works with Exchange Web Email! It has now officially replaced IE on my system. As soon as it can block ads (not holding my breath), it will replace OmniWeb as my main browser.

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by shortcipher:
i just ran a frame rate test of Flash MX in Safari, and it seems to top out at around 11/12fps, I wonder, could this have anything to do with the fact that Macromedia's default frame rate in Flash is 12?

I sincerely hope they sort this out.

It has...Hyatt (one of the developers) said so...along with a great number of other fixes. This, all in 2 days. Can you imagine what a month more of work could bring?

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by maxelson:
If it has, poke me and I'll hunt through this behemoth of a thread.

Perhaps it'll break the record held by the OmniWeb browser thread during the sneaky peek days.

[KidRed]

Originally posted by clebin:
I'm not sure whether your argument centres on Safari being like iTunes or on the limitations of brushed metal apps. Brushed metal can use the standard toolbar with all of the features you mentioned. You can use metalifizer in fact (I think that's its name) to run apps like Mail or Chimera as brushed metal.

The other argument is that it's just like iTunes et al. It isn't, and anyway, if you took one iApp as a standard for other iApps the others are probably as non-standard as they are from Apple's main HI guidelines. I don't mind them breaking their guidelines, but it needs to be for a better reason.

You say the folders in iTunes work the folders in Safari - ok, but I'd atleast use different icons in the left and right panes to distinguish their behaviour. iTunes doesn't have folders in its right-hand pane, so that's a difference for a start..

These are issues you get into more and more if you don't follow guidelines. If Apple keeps reinventing the user-interface with each app, it'll become impossible for them to write an app that's predictable and intuitive from the outset. Anyway, that's just my opinion.

But I still like it alot - I was hardly stressing, was I?

Chris


EDIT: Oh, and on that Dock point... Try closing all the windows then clicking on the Dock icon (lefthand Dock placement). Believe it or not I actually know how to resize a window.

Well, since you resized the window you'll see it stops at the dock, so to some extend it is dock aware. Not fully, but it is in that repsect. As for the like iTunes, I disagree, it is very much like iTunes. It's a BM iApp for one and second, open iTunes to the default 2 framed window and open Safari, same layout idea. Then in iTunes you have
your bookmarks which are editable actual files, then you have your folders/playlist in the left frame which can't be edited as much as well as your radio-library/Bookmark bar/menu. Same concept as iTunes. It's your choice to disagree.

I wonder if we will ever see another 0.9 beta version before safari goes final. There are some serious bugs, the fact that it can delete your home folder when you option click a link and the fact that some people can't open any https sites ( I can't log in to .mac, versiontracker or hotmail, ... ). The good news is that I haven't found that much rendering bugs, most bugs are in the app itself. Not bad for a beta but for now I will still use chimera, I will probably switch to safari with the next beta or the next 1.0 release.

The deleted home directory only happened to a few people, not to everyone who option-click downlaods. I have done this as well as many others at the Apple boards. So it's a rare occurance that needs to be fixed, not a major bug affecting everyone.

I have no issues with versiontracker.com, datek.com and paypal.com so again, it's a rare occurance for some people. This is a beta afterall. It's just a matter of someone discovering the common thread that everyone experiencing the above issues. I love Safari and look forward to it's progression.

off topic- does the "quote" button on the reply page work for anyone? It didn't in IE and doesn't in Safari.

[Art Vandelay]

Originally posted by TC:
Just realised that there are 3 seprate places for storing bookmarks:
Bookmarks Bar
Bookmarks Menu
All Bookmarks

You can specify that the Bookmarks Menu should include your bookmarks bar but the only way to access all your other bookmarks is to view all bookmarks.

They should be accessible form at least the Bookmarks Menu. For me they should also show up as a menu if you hold the bookmark button on the bookmarks bar.

If you want your bookmarks to be visible in the bookmarks menu, then add them to the Bookmarks Menu collection.

[Art Vandelay]

Originally posted by KidRed:
off topic- does the "quote" button on the reply page work for anyone? It didn't in IE and doesn't in Safari.

Several of those buttons don't work in any browser I've tried.

[OAW]

Originally posted by Art Vandelay:
If you want your bookmarks to be visible in the bookmarks menu, then add them to the Bookmarks Menu collection.

While I like the fact that there are 3 places to store bookmarks ....

1. Bookmarks Bar
2. Bookmarks Menu
3. Bookmarks Window

... I think Safari could be improved to easily accommodate users who are accustomed to having their "favorites" in the bar, and their favorites plus "everything else" AUTOMATICALLY included in the menu.

Don't get me wrong ... the Safari approach provides greater flexiblity and allows you to organize your bookmarks in any way you want ... but it could be a little easier IMHO.

What I suggest is to simply add an "Include Bookmarks Window" preference to the "Bookmarks Menu" preference group. This would allow the user to easily include the "regular" bookmark collections in the Bookmarks Menu ... without copying or moving them into the "special" Bookmarks Menu "folder" on the Bookmarks Window. Keeping them as "regular" bookmark collections would make better use of the vertical space in the Collection List for viewing and editing one's bookmarks.

If this were done, the Bookmark Menu would include the following ...

1. Items in the Bookmarks Menu "folder" itself in the Bookmarks Window. These would be at the "root" of the menu so to speak, as opposed to the following which would be in a "special" subfolder.

2. Bookmarks Bar websites if the "Include Bookmarks Bar" preference is set.

3. Address Book websites if the "Include Address Book" preference is set.

4. Rendezvous websites if the "Include Rendezvous" preference is set.

5. All other "regular" bookmarks collections in the Bookmarks Window if the "Include Bookmarks Window" preference is set.

OAW

[Ozmodiar]

Originally posted by TheIceMan:
Safari Enhancer 1.0

Safari just became my browser of choice.

[Edit: Never mind the rest]

[Guy Incognito]

With the release of Safari...I've noticed two Mac websites that frantically added a favicon to their site.

While I think all favicons are pretty ugly, MacNN forums added the magnifying glass favicon a few minutes ago...and Inside Mac Games added their nice looking IMG logo yesterday.

[DVD Plaza]

I noticed that as well - three Mac sites I visit suddenly added them

[milenko11]

Is anyone else noticing a memory leak with Safari? I have 1.5 gigs of ram and i just rebooted from installing Quicktime 6.1. I opened up a few apps and was using roughly 300 mb. Then i opened safari and in a few minutes i have 19mb free!!! Now not all of it's active but it's not free!

[Art Vandelay]

Originally posted by milenko11:
Is anyone else noticing a memory leak with Safari? I have 1.5 gigs of ram and i just rebooted from installing Quicktime 6.1. I opened up a few apps and was using roughly 300 mb. Then i opened safari and in a few minutes i have 19mb free!!! Now not all of it's active but it's not free!

Did you look to see what amount Safari was using? I've been using Safari almost non-stop since the keynote and have not noticed a problem. Every time I've checked it, it's been using around 40-50MB.

[Guy Incognito]

oke:

Phew...these have just been added a few seconds ago.

Post count ++

I'm the first to use these...yay! And poke doesn't work after the message is edited...first bug report!

[Guy Incognito]

oke:

Actually...it doesn't work at all. Heh.

[Xtraz]

I just realized a good feature IE had that Safari / Chimera needs.

When you download a jpg in IE, it auto-creates a preview icon whereas in Safari and Chimera they just show the generic preview icon. It seems like most browsers other than IE don't do this.

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by Xtraz:
I just realized a good feature IE had that Safari / Chimera needs.

When you download a jpg in IE, it auto-creates a preview icon whereas in Safari and Chimera they just show the generic preview icon. It seems like most browsers other than IE don't do this.

Why? Because it's an unecessary feature since the Finder can already show a preview.

View -> Show View Options -> Show Icon Preview

No need for generating a preview icon.

[Dale Sorel]

I just discovered you can do a search within the bookmarks with Safari. Pretty cool

[Xtraz]

Thanks Guy, I didn't know about that view option.

However, why does Image Capture still produces those icons if they're deemed unncessary then?

[CaseCom]

With IE running in the background, I clicked a link in an e-mail (in Entourage) and was surprised to see Safari start up. Sure enough, in my Internet preference panel my default browser had been changed to Safari. Sneaky. Very Microsoft-like.

Has this happened to everybody?

[Art Vandelay]

Originally posted by CaseCom:
With IE running in the background, I clicked a link in an e-mail (in Entourage) and was surprised to see Safari start up. Sure enough, in my Internet preference panel my default browser had been changed to Safari. Sneaky. Very Microsoft-like.

Has this happened to everybody?

It didn't change the default browser on any of my three Macs.

[[APi]TheMan]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
<snip smileys>

New smileys?



haha sweet

[Xtraz]

View -> Show View Options -> Show Icon Preview

No need for generating a preview icon.

Okay after playing around with it I conclude that Safari should still generate preview icons for downloaded pictures.

First, the previews generated by Show Icon Preview doesn't seem to stick when you reboot or copy the files/folder to somewhere else, which is annoying when you copy a folder of pictures and you have to re-generate all the previews.
Secondly, I don't see any advantage for having the generic icon.
Thirdly, it would make the behavour similar to that of Image Capture.

[TC]

Originally posted by Dale Sorel:
I just discovered you can do a search within the bookmarks with Safari. Pretty cool

Good find, it also works for history, but what we need is filtering, just like iTunes, Address Book and iCal.

My preferred method would be like iCal as this would break bookmarks out of their folders. there should also be a way to specify filtering of history (probably just by being on the history section). Just realised the easiest way to control what is filtered is to base it on whatever is selected on the left hand side. That way it is easy to specify specific bookmark folders or history. If nothing is selected it just filters everything.

Anyone know where I can send this stuff to Apple. (Sure they already have much better ideas but just in case)

[JLL]

Originally posted by Xtraz:
Okay after playing around with it I conclude that Safari should still generate preview icons for downloaded pictures.

Download the same image in IE and Safari. Take a look at the file sizes.

[Art Vandelay]

Originally posted by Xtraz:
Okay after playing around with it I conclude that Safari should still generate preview icons for downloaded pictures.

First, the previews generated by Show Icon Preview doesn't seem to stick when you reboot or copy the files/folder to somewhere else, which is annoying when you copy a folder of pictures and you have to re-generate all the previews.
Secondly, I don't see any advantage for having the generic icon.
Thirdly, it would make the behavour similar to that of Image Capture.

I don't have any problems with Finder's previews. They always stick between reboots or copies/moves.

[Xtraz]

Fine. Make it an option then.

That increase in space makes finding a certain image file easier so its worth it. And please don't say iPhoto because I like my image organization already, and scrolling through a windowful of preview icons is so much faster.

[Xtraz]

I don't have any problems with Finder's previews. They always stick between reboots or copies/moves.

Hmm thanks for that info. I'll look into what's causing that info.

Any since the preview sticks like you said, are the file sizes increased? Or is there a separate icon file?

[Art Vandelay]

Originally posted by Xtraz:
Hmm thanks for that info. I'll look into what's causing that info.

Any since the preview sticks like you said, are the file sizes increased? Or is there a separate icon file?

Nope on both. The Finder does not modify the file to show a preview. It is just looking at the contents of the image file and displaying it as the icon.

[Producer]

Now that Apple has it's own browser...how come it is not incorporated into the OS like IE supposedly is on XP?

Also notice as SJ always said at the keynote that this it is the fastest browser on the Mac..what is stopping this from beating out IE on Windows?

[Producer]

oh also...when you file a bug...how do you know it is being sent? After I click submit it the dialog dissapears right away even if I send a pic or source code..I like it if it is working but I just want to make sure it is working..

[Producer]

well acording to this zdnet article Apple is integrating into the OS:

""We are going to make the browser an integrated part of the OS," said Oren Ziv, creative markets director for Apple Europe. "Developers will be able to draw on browser functionality in other applications, without needing to build that functionality from scratch.""

more http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104-979938.html

[MickS]

Originally posted by Producer:
Now that Apple has it's own browser...how come it is not incorporated into the OS like IE supposedly is on XP?

At the moment the WebCore and JavaScriptCore frameworks are contained within the Safari application itself. It wouldn't take too much for Apple to make them system frameworks instead.

[dfiler]

Originally posted by Producer:
well acording to this zdnet article Apple is integrating into the OS:

""We are going to make the browser an integrated part of the OS," said Oren Ziv, creative markets director for Apple Europe. "Developers will be able to draw on browser functionality in other applications, without needing to build that functionality from scratch.""

more http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104-979938.html

I suppose it depends on how you define 'integrated'.

One of the reasons that IE runs so fast on windows is that it runs in kernel space. I highly doubt that apple will go this route. While it results in less mode switching, if the browser crashes, a reboot is neccessary.

Webcore is just another framework right?