[freudling]

Yes, I know, drudging up the past. I know the case was just recently reopened. This is an incredibly intriguing, bizarre crime. A 6 year old beauty pageant was killed and then found in the basement of her home in 1995. Her parents and brother have been suspects...

Lots of weird things around this case. Also of note, the Ramseys's other daughter was killed in 1992 I believe in a car accident.

One burning question: why would the Ramseys call 911 and report their daughter missing without searching the entire house?

By the way, Patsy Ramsey, the mother, died in 2006 of Ovarian Cancer.

Anyway, great documentary with Bill Kurtis.

YouTube - JonBenet Investigation Part 1

[ghporter]

Well according to The Enquirer, the mom, a neighbor, space aliens, Michael Jackson, and a few others did the deed. There hasn't been any real, solid journalism about the case since about 1999, with most of the "press" on the poor girl's fate actually belonging to the tabloids' particular kind of fiction. I hope someone finally does get to the bottom of the question, but I'm not holding my breath...

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

the mom, a neighbor, space aliens, Michael Jackson,

That could be one and the same person

-t

[phantomdragonz]

I have driven by the house, its in a very nice west boulder neighborhood. It was recently up for sale again.

Boulder is a weird place... it's commonly referred to as "The peoples republic of Boulder" around here...

this case is very similar to the O.J. case, everyone knows who did it but there is no definitive result.

any family that willingly puts their small children in a fashion show are absolutely off their rocker.

-Zach

[brassplayersrock²]

Zach, wouldn't that be every parent whose concerned with how their kid looks in public though? Public life is one big "fashion show" to most parents.

[phantomdragonz]

there is a difference of extremes when making your child presentable in public to making them look like a supermodel when they are 8.

Parents that obsess over the "beauty" of their young child are psychotic...

However, I have never knowingly met a pagent parent, so I have no first hand experience.

-Zach

[indigoimac]

My initial impression was always that it was the father -- the whole thing was investigated sooo incredibly poorly that I do not think we will ever know unfortunately.

Though, who the hell knows, there's always incidents like the Elizabeth Smart case, but that was weird as hell too.

[OldManMac]

According to a good friend of mine, who is friends with John Ramsey, the mother did it.

[Athens]

I had always suspected it was the Mother. Was a gut feeling so I can believe it.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Athens 

I had always suspected it was the Mother. Was a gut feeling so I can believe it.

This is one of those posts that captures someone's personality so well.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

This is one of those posts that captures someone's personality so well.

Why, there was a lot of suspicion of it being a family member. The evidence always pointed to that. Whats wrong with my personality for suspecting the mother?

[indigoimac]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Why, there was a lot of suspicion of it being a family member. The evidence always pointed to that. Whats wrong with my personality for suspecting the mother?

I think he's commenting on the credence you are willing to put on your gut feeling.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by indigoimac 

I think he's commenting on the credence you are willing to put on your gut feeling.

Don't we all make choices on our gut feelings? Have you ever meet some one that gave you a strange feeling, a gut feeling that they could be bad news? Last time I checked we where still a emotionally driven people not a logical Vulcan type race operating on only fact.

I watched a few shows on the case, and still remember the news interviews and something never seemed right about the mother and her story.

[Lateralus]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Don't we all make choices on our gut feelings? Have you ever meet some one that gave you a strange feeling, a gut feeling that they could be bad news?

That can get in the way of impartiality - I hope you're never a juror in one of my trials. People are always telling me that I give them a bad gut feeling, even though nobody's ever actually proven any of the things I've done.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Lateralus 

That can get in the way of impartiality - I hope you're never a juror in one of my trials. People are always telling me that I give them a bad gut feeling, even though nobody's ever actually proven any of the things I've done.

No I disagree, because you don't have to act on a gut feeling. You can still be impartial if you choose to be. Impartiality is a choice. Im sure many times people have had a gut feeling one way but made the decision based on the facts as presented.

[ghporter]

Following one's gut should never be the basis of any conclusion. Maybe it could help you examine the evidence you possess more carefully or in a particular way, but "my gut says it's true" is entirely emotional. It's an expression of faith rather than evidence-based logical conclusion.

On the other hand, to say "there were always some questions about how and when that made me suspect the mother" is both a valid response and bluntly honest.

[subego]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Following one's gut should never be the basis of any conclusion. Maybe it could help you examine the evidence you possess more carefully or in a particular way, but "my gut says it's true" is entirely emotional. It's an expression of faith rather than evidence-based logical conclusion.

I disagree.

If you have a "gut feeling" you would be safer on the other side of the street because of who's walking towards you. Follow it. Don't think about it. Don't try and rationalize it. In the words of Nike, "just do it".

This isn't faith, it's millions of years of evolution working to save your ass (also known as instinct).

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Lateralus 

That can get in the way of impartiality - I hope you're never a juror in one of my trials. People are always telling me that I give them a bad gut feeling, even though nobody's ever actually proven any of the things I've done.

I know exactly how you feel.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by subego 

I disagree.

If you have a "gut feeling" you would be safer on the other side of the street because of who's walking towards you. Follow it. Don't think about it. Don't try and rationalize it. In the words of Nike, "just do it".

This isn't faith, it's millions of years of evolution working to save your ass (also known as instinct).

We're talking about different things. I was talking about a situation where someone uses his "gut feeling" about a thought process. You are talking about following subconscious cues and impulses in a quickly evolving situation. I agree with you in your example, but it's not the same as pondering an issue and deciding based on emotion versus logic.

[subego]

Gotcha.

I thought that may have been your point, but that "never" kept staring me in the face.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by indigoimac 

I think he's commenting on the credence you are willing to put on your gut feeling.

That and that it's about something so utterly irrelevant.

Edit: Oh yeah, and his surety is in response to hearsay.

[freudling]

Have to admit. When I watch documentaries on this case, the parents strick me as incredibly odd. Like, I do get a bad feeling from them. Yes, we are flesh and blood, with built in sensors for stuff like this. It helps us navigate the world and avoid danger. Feelings, and gut feelings are very real and valid.

The parents seem just psychopathic, without much emotion. Never I have seen a video of them crying. The mother talking about how they lost so much they worked for in a very selfish way... the father seems incredibly anal and controlling... I read, not sure if it's true, how Jonbenet had over 30 yeast infections 2 years prior to her death. Looked like vaginal irritation and such as well.

To me this implies the father was molesting her, or the brother. Why would Jonbenet let a complete stranger do this without saying anything over all that time, if in fact she was being serial molested? And it would make more sense that if she was being serial molested often then it would be from someone close to her. Because she was only like 6 years old, the likely suspect is a family member, because she wouldn't be left alone really at all.

Remind you of someone maybe? See Twin Peaks: Laura Palmer. She was molested by a family member (her father) but let it happen, and tricked herself into thinking it was someone else.

And the whole circumstances of her death in the house... being killed in the house... the parents calling 911 without searching the entire house... the what seems to be a completely arbitrary ransom note that was for the exact amount as the father's bonus he just got... like they panicked or something and wrote the letter after they found out she was dead to provide some kind of motive for her death by Mr. Imaginary... the fact that they never spoke to the police really at all for months after the death... hid behind their lawyers and PR people... It all smells fishy. And as far as I know, the brother is basically MIA in terms of ever being interviewed or really seen much at all.

I think the brother did it. Of course, this is all speculation...

Go check out the TED talk on the scientific explanation of a gut feeling. There're are so many nerves and things going on in your stomach the speaker labelled the stomach a second brain.

Heribert Watzke: The brain in your gut | Video on TED.com

[ghporter]

Little girls get yeast infections without being molested. With the number of costumes she had to wear, and the fact that such young children are pretty spotty with personal hygiene, I wouldn't base any deep conclusion on nuke us yeast infections.

As for the parents being odd, well yes they were. They pimped their daughter in public in those stupid little girl beauty pageants. I peso ally see little diffence between these and dog shows, at least in terms of how the "contestant" is treated.

[andi*pandi]

Twin Peaks was fiction. This... I don't know what this is, besides sad.

[Chongo]

It was the one armed man.


It was most likely the brother and the parents tried to cover it up.

[Athens]

The searching the entire house isnt a big issue for me. I mean lots of places to hide, you expect when your screaming at your kid to come out a quick search in all the main rooms resulting in nothing creating panic. I don't actually see it as being very odd. I mean if I had a kid and im not getting a response to my screams and all the obvious normal places are empty I am going to be calling the cops too before spending a long time doing a detailed search. The mothers lack of emotions and attitude towards the lost of her investment is what irked me the most about her.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Little girls get yeast infections without being molested. With the number of costumes she had to wear, and the fact that such young children are pretty spotty with personal hygiene, I wouldn't base any deep conclusion on nuke us yeast infections.

As for the parents being odd, well yes they were. They pimped their daughter in public in those stupid little girl beauty pageants. I peso ally see little diffence between these and dog shows, at least in terms of how the "contestant" is treated.

No.

If you read the background on this, you'd know that the vagina may have been compromised coupled with yeast infections. She had to go to the paediatrician dozens of times over a 2 year period. But we don't know for sure if she was being molested or not, but the implication is that she was.

[subego]

Originally Posted by freudling 

the fact that they never spoke to the police really at all for months after the death... hid behind their lawyers and PR people... It all smells fishy.

This is SOP if you're a prime suspect. Prosecutors are fishy too.

Edit: and they're quite comfortable with the fact that exercising your rights make you look guilty.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by freudling 

No.

If you read the background on this, you'd know that the vagina may have been compromised coupled with yeast infections. She had to go to the paediatrician dozens of times over a 2 year period. But we don't know for sure if she was being molested or not, but the implication is that she was.

My point was that any given little girl who does tons of costume changes could get yeast infections without being abused. The appropriate action when a little girl complains of the symptoms of a yeast infection IS to go to the pediatrician, and given the various ways yeast perpetuates itself, physical abuse isn't in the top ten reasons for a little girl to get repeated infections.

Tough infections call for not only medications but effectively sterilizing every bit of underclothing and tight fitting pants that the girl has worn. This where the costume thing comes in; did the parents treat her problem aggressively enough by destroying those expensive costumes?

And what exactly does "compromised" mean when talking about a child's vagina? You do know that a hymen may or may not be present, may or may not completely close the vagina, and could be perforated through relatively benign mechanical means, right?

On the other hand, their public behavior with their daughter was effectively abuse anyway, so I do not discount her being sexually abused.

[glideslope]

Brother.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

My point was that any given little girl who does tons of costume changes could get yeast infections without being abused. The appropriate action when a little girl complains of the symptoms of a yeast infection IS to go to the pediatrician, and given the various ways yeast perpetuates itself, physical abuse isn't in the top ten reasons for a little girl to get repeated infections.

Tough infections call for not only medications but effectively sterilizing every bit of underclothing and tight fitting pants that the girl has worn. This where the costume thing comes in; did the parents treat her problem aggressively enough by destroying those expensive costumes?

And what exactly does "compromised" mean when talking about a child's vagina? You do know that a hymen may or may not be present, may or may not completely close the vagina, and could be perforated through relatively benign mechanical means, right?

On the other hand, their public behavior with their daughter was effectively abuse anyway, so I do not discount her being sexually abused.

From what I've seen/read, the vagina, inside, had signs of damage (raw) during repeated visits to the paediatrician. Please don't run off and say she was molested... the information on this point is spotty and very hard to come by. But the implication from what I read is that sexual abuse was one explanation. Your explanation of costumes is another.