[cpac]

Originally posted by Douglashh:
I've written several fairly complex applications for my business using AW6 Spreadsheet. I don't want Excel, I just wanted a basic spreadsheet like AW6 only updated to make use of OS X.

I just think you're likely to be a rare exception.

[jasong]

Originally posted by jamesl:
IS it likely that Apple may add a later addition to iWork, ie a spreadsheet application like Cells or Grids? Or maybe they will launch it as a standalone application?

Given that Steve's exact words were "With iWork, we're building the successor to AppleWorks" (1:10:35 in the keynote). Building, that means they aren't done yet. They may charge for additional apps added, but it is clear they aren't done yet.

-- Jason

[Simon]

Originally posted by jasong:
Given that Steve's exact words were "With iWork, we're building the successor to AppleWorks" (1:10:35 in the keynote). Building, that means they aren't done yet. They may charge for additional apps added, but it is clear they aren't done yet.

Thanks for that very reasonable remark.

People, I think some things need to become clear here. iWork is (at least right now) not the replacement of AW or Office. Apple is building a successor to AW and it's being called iWork, but this is work in progress. They are replacing AW with one app at a time. Right now we have a presentation tool and a WP/layout app. There is no spreadsheet and no database tool (yet).

But this isn't really a problem because you still get AW. You still have all the functionality you used to have, but for $79 iWork gives you some more and especially some revised functionality. iWork is a modern OS X app with lots of goodies. AW isn't, but it works the same way it always worked. Some time in the future Apple will have apps replacing all parts of AW and then they will ditch it all together. But for the time being, you may use AW all you want.

Concerning Office, it's terribly simple: If you need Excel, buy it. If all you need is Word and/or PowerPoint, iWork is cheaper and does a lot much better. It's your choice. End of story.

I think people are getting worked up over nothing here. Nothing is being taken away from you. Apple is just developing good software and selling it at a very inexpensive price point. I can't see what's wrong with that.

[Love Calm Quiet]

OUTLINING ?

I see no mention of outlining in Apple's description of Pages. That's the one thing that keeps me using Word (and Word's outlining could sure use improvement). Omnioutliner's WP function doesn't work for me, so I am left with Word for large writing projects that really need to be developed and organized in an outline

Or has anyone seen mention that I've missed?

[kcmac]

Originally posted by Simon:
But this isn't really a problem because you still get AW. You still have all the functionality you used to have, but for $79 iWork gives you some more and especially some revised functionality. iWork is a modern OS X app with lots of goodies. AW isn't, but it works the same way it always worked. Some time in the future Apple will have apps replacing all parts of AW and then they will ditch it all together. But for the time being, you may use AW all you want.

Right on Simon.

It always amazes me when something new like iWork comes out, doesn't have a spreadsheet and people react like now their are no spreadsheet apps or the one(s) they have mysteriously will cease to work.

For those doing "complex" stuff with AW, I would bet you can still do "complex" stuff with AW. For those that use Excel...yep, still works.

The other apps for iWork will eventually show up. I still wonder sometimes what else Apple has up their sleeve for iLife. I doubt Garageband was their last addition to that bundle.

[kcmac]

Originally posted by Love Calm Quiet:
OUTLINING ?

I see no mention of outlining in Apple's description of Pages. That's the one thing that keeps me using Word (and Word's outlining could sure use improvement). Omnioutliner's WP function doesn't work for me, so I am left with Word for large writing projects that really need to be developed and organized in an outline

Or has anyone seen mention that I've missed?

Why not do your outlining in Word, and heck most of your writing as well? Then transfer it to Pages and format it into a thing of beauty.

Pages will never have the feature bloat of Word. That's what is so irritating about Word. So many features that people are hesitant to move away from it even though very few of them are used by any one person. But as a mass or big group, quite a few may be.

Pages has style. Makes you look good. Is the icing on the cake. Look at what Keynote does to Powerpoint in that regard.

Use Pages as an additional tool to take more pride in your final product. Showing off ain't' bad either.

[ntt]

Originally posted by Love Calm Quiet:
OUTLINING ?

I see no mention of outlining in Apple's description of Pages. That's the one thing that keeps me using Word (and Word's outlining could sure use improvement). Omnioutliner's WP function doesn't work for me, so I am left with Word for large writing projects that really need to be developed and organized in an outline

Or has anyone seen mention that I've missed?

I don't see this as a major limitation, and I am someone who uses Outlining daily with OmniOutliner.

I'm looking forward to seeing what sort of AppleScript or RTF export I can create from OmniOutliner that I can then import into Pages to tweak visually for results that MSWord can only dream of.

[threestain]

well, somehow i've plonked down �30 (�20 off RRP, yay for being a student), for iWork. Maybe its just me, but it really does look like a fantastic idea. Plus I know how good keynote is, and how versatile it is when you get inside it. If its the same with Pages... out goes office AND neooffice. VoodooPad would stay though.

[dru]

Let me see if I understand this. There's no Draw, Paint, Spreadsheet or Database module and yet this is supposed to be a replacement for Appleworks?

Horsehooves!

And for you Excel Nazis... blow it out your ear. Not everyone subscribes to the Microsoft indentured servatude program.

I swear, we're in bigger trouble than I want to believe...



Pages doesn't impress me.

[threestain]

Pages doesn't impress me.

Man, I feel like a woman.

Sorry, this isn't the next song line forum.

[lavar78]

Originally posted by dru:
Let me see if I understand this. There's no Draw, Paint, Spreadsheet or Database module and yet this is supposed to be a replacement for Appleworks?

Did you actually try to get it straight? As was mentioned earlier, Steve said they're "building" the replacement for Appleworks. These are the first two bricks.

[Cadaver]

For those who need a spreadsheet but don't want Excel - and otherwise want the iWork package - with a spreadsheet app like AppleWorks has, here's a solution:

Mariner Calc.

I've never used it myself, but I've heard good things about it. While it may not be an Excel-killer, I bet dollars to donuts it's going to be better than the antique spreadsheet app that AppleWorks has.

[pliny]

Originally posted by kcmac:


Pages will never have the feature bloat of Word. That's what is so irritating about Word. So many features that people are hesitant to move away from it even though very few of them are used by any one person.

Yeah 2/3 or more of the stuff in Word I don't ever need so I don't use it much at all, I prefer Appleworks.

I hope to use Pages soon.

[midwinter]

If AppleWorks could use in-line spell checking like cocoa apps, I'd still be using it. I own Word. I own Nisus Writer Express.

I bought Pages.

[Toyin]

Originally posted by itai195:
Personally, I did get a copy of Office 2004, but Pages has me intrigued. It seems much more like the kind of word processor that I -- and if I may project, probably most consumers/students -- want to use. Word has a lot of power features that some folks really need, but most folks are annoyed by. Keynote 2 I'm not as sure about... PowerPoint compatibility is essential to me, and I never used Keynote 1. Keynote's value looks to be in all the nifty animations it can do, but are those exported into PPT format? I never use my Mac for presentations.

I'm a recent Powerpoint to Keynote switcher. Keynote 2 looks impressive and the 2 things that got me are 1) The presenters window. Now you have your own window that shows the current slide, next slide, and comments and 2) You can export presentations as Flash files if you don't want to lose the animations when exporting to PPT format.

As for Pages, I wasn't impressed initially, but when I watched Phil Schiller using it during the Keynote I had to have it. I can think of several documents that took me hours in Word to format, which in Pages would have taken a fraction of the time. The same goes for Dreamweaver, Since pages also exports to HTML.

[brettcamp]

Judging by the comments here, I guess I'm not the only one who wants inline spellchecking and outlining (specifically a sidebar outliner, as in Mellel) in my word processor. If AppleWorks had those features, and took advantage of Cocoa features, I'd use it exclusively. Now , I only use it on the rare occasions I need to outline long pieces or to format text; most of what I write is emailed to publications. I was hoping iWork would improve the AW word processor in at least those respects. Instead, we got a program that actually fills a missing niche for consumer users rather than replacing Word or other word processors. I think it was a smart and unexpected move on Apple's part and really fills a need.

Still, for most of my writing, even though I have Word (just too frustrating to use) and AppleWorks, I use TextEdit, which does use OSX's inline spellchecking, as Pages must, and also allows use of various Services for word count, thesaurus and other WP functions. It doesn't get in my way and allows the basic formatting (fonts, ruler, doublespacing) I need. But it does lack outlining and some other important aspects of the AW word processor, so, as much as I use TextEdit now, in its present form, it's not enough to serve as most consumers' sole word processor. Which means either Apple improves it or starts bundling iWork with its consumer computers.

So, assuming that iWork eventually does replace AppleWorks when the other pieces arrive, do y'all think it'll be bundled with consumer Macs, as AW is now but iW (so far) isn't? Or will they just improve TextEdit? It's hard to imagine consumer Macs not having a low end or even middling Works suite bundled.

Whatever happens, I sure hope Apple adds to Pages a sidebar outliner a la Mellel, CopyWrite, etc. With that and the other Cocoa goodies, plus the cool page layout functions and Keynote2, it'd be worth buying for me and I suspect lots of other writers.

[Sven G]

A very strange comparison, maybe... but I find that the menus in the new Apple Pages (we'll have to keep that name, I guess) are quite similar - besides to those of the old NeXT app with the same name - to the Microsoft PhotoDraw 2000 ones:



BTW, it's a pity that they discontinued PhotoDraw, as it had a very interesting (albeit Microsoftish) interface, with "dynamical" panes on the sides of the document: probably, a very first form of the so-called task panes.

Ok, end of not-too-serious comparison.

[pliny]

Originally posted by brettcamp:

Whatever happens, I sure hope Apple adds to Pages a sidebar outliner a la Mellel, CopyWrite, etc. With that and the other Cocoa goodies, plus the cool page layout functions and Keynote2, it'd be worth buying for me and I suspect lots of other writers.

Ok, a what? I'm confused what do you need Pages to do???

[Judge_Fire]

As said, Apple is building iWork piece by piece.

I believe it's actually the same team. That's why they did Keynote first, then focused on Pages while adding less to Keynote.

After the bug fixing round they might well be focusing on a (simple) spreadsheet module.

J

[CreepingDeth]

Gonna buy it in early February. This is one of the things that excited me during the Keynote. It's been 2 years since Keynote has been released and it still looks better, has better output, is more intuitive, and downright awesome even compared to Office 2004's PowerPoint. PowerPoint is still using audio samples that sound like they're more than a decade old. The animations are still simplistic and second-class. Keynote is fun, and don't forget about the third party themes. Keynote 2 is going to kick ass. With the inclusion of almost LiveType-ish animations, that presenter window, slide linking, it will easily make it the best presentation app out there for half the price.

Now on to Pages. First, let me describe my relationship with Word. Well, "relationship" is not the right word. "Grudge", "angst", and "ire" seem descriptive. A casual look at my fonts folder reveals 2,792 font files. Now that counts a few ones with separate styles, but that is the exception. So let's call it 2,500 fonts, not including System and Library level fonts. Let's say there are 2 styles for every font, which is a very conservative guess. As you know, Microsoft Word is not good with fonts. Well, it's awful. I have to scroll through each and every style, broken up separately, to get to my font. Of course, after a six minute beachball. The type rendering is antique. It looks like something out of OS 9. The worst part is the way the font menu renders type. Worst WYSIWYG font menu ever. And this is all after waiting 10 minutes for the damn thing to start. And it is very sloooow.

Pages looks like a breath of fresh air. It has more DTP features than I had anticipated. That is a good thing. Some of the more bizarre layouts I have to do for school are impossible to do outside of InDesign, an app that I'm very new too. Impossible because it takes me so long to figure out. If I wanted to throw something together really quick, say a 3 column brochure, (I had to do that for History this year), I could get it done much faster than Word could. Add that to the real time text wrapping (view Keynote demo), the built in masking and drop shadows, etc., it is a much more polished and modern version of what Word should be and shouldn't have to strive to be. Word is like a phone booth with 20 college kids in it, and you are the guys who has to make a phone call in it.

I can't wait for it. I might post a little mini-review for it.

But all you guys who are bitching about the lack of a spreadsheet are missing the point. Excel is decent at what it does and it is standard. It is for people who use it often. For the rest of us, the built in features for charts and tables are just fine, and hopefully they're similar to the easy-to-use ones in Keynote. If you need Excel, fine. Use it. iWork is not supposed to replace Word and the rest of that garbage. It is supposed to be an easy to use, more graphically inclined word processor. It's like you guys are complaining that the Mac mini doesn't have a G5 in it.

[brettcamp]

Originally posted by pliny:
Ok, a what? I'm confused what do you need Pages to do???

Sorry -- should have been clearer. Mellel, CopyWrite, ZWrite and iOrganize and have a panel on the left of the document view that contains an outline. So when you click on any of the outline topics, the document view takes you to the text under that topic. This makes it much easier to navigate through long, multisection documents. I hope Pages has (or someday will have) that feature.

[drspock]

As someone who does a fair bit of work in LaTeX (using TeXShop and PDFtex), Pages feels like the most beautiful TeX frontend/editor ever. Honestly, all of the features they mention
(turn on hyphenation with a click? Very TeX oriented concern) seem to be answers to the common problems faced by existing TeX editors. The level of customizability that you can achieve with LaTeX is the main reason I use it rather than Word or Appleworks, so I am very excited about getting my hands on Pages and finding out if it can replace my precious TeXShop at last. Any other texheads feel this way?

[Agasthya]

Pages is amazing. I'd highly recommend you guys to go out to your local Apple Store on the 22nd and play with it on the demo machines (all stores are opening 1 hour early on the 22nd too!). It is one of the coolest apps Apple has ever written. I was blown away by how easy it is to do everything.

[Simon]

Originally posted by drspock:
The level of customizability that you can achieve with LaTeX is the main reason I use it rather than Word or Appleworks, so I am very excited about getting my hands on Pages and finding out if it can replace my precious TeXShop at last. Any other texheads feel this way?

Not necessarily. When I would write something in AW's WP module, I'll use Pages instead. When I'm writing a scientific paper, I'll continue to use LaTeX and TeXShop. I think these two approaches are geared towards two completely different types of text work. I don't mind using them side by side. And I don't think one could replace the other.

[electric monk]

Any chance of a review from anyone who was at Macworld and got a chance to play with it for a little while?

[Group51]

Originally posted by Simon:
Not necessarily. When I would write something in AW's WP module, I'll use Pages instead. When I'm writing a scientific paper, I'll continue to use LaTeX and TeXShop. I think these two approaches are geared towards two completely different types of text work. I don't mind using them side by side. And I don't think one could replace the other.

Ah, this is my question. You see the WP module in Appleworks is like Word, you get a screen and a blinking cursor and you start to type.

But the real power in AppleWorks is using the Drawing module for creating your document. You put everything into objects, and the text can flow from one object to another, and you arrange with picture objects and spreadsheet objects to create a layout. This I think, is called 'Quark-like'.

Now, Keynote seems to work this way too. You have text objects that you move around and shapes and media objects. So, is pages a traditional Word-type word processor or it is a Quark-like word processor?

[Agasthya]

Originally posted by Group51:
Now, Keynote seems to work this way too. You have text objects that you move around and shapes and media objects. So, is pages a traditional Word-type word processor or it is a Quark-like word processor?

One of my co-workers said to me "This app is like Quark without all the complicated stuff"

[kcmac]

Some really nice screenshots here

Makes me want pages more than ever. I am dying for a review and to see what other goodies can be found in the inspector. These screenies provide a few clues but more would be good.

[CreepingDeth]

Originally posted by kcmac:
Some really nice screenshots here

Makes me want pages more than ever. I am dying for a review and to see what other goodies can be found in the inspector. These screenies provide a few clues but more would be good.

New Inspector options:

The page appears to take over most of the option on from Keynote 1's Slide area. Probably controls the body and title, fills, etc. (see below)

The slide (picture frame-kinda thing) now is dedicated to transitions.

The one with the square and the circle have fill options, stroke, shadow and opacity settings.

The ruler button has settings for proportion, position on slide and rotation.

The type button has basic type editing like kerning and color, etc.

The flying yellow square has build option (object x comes in with transition y)

Chart: Self explanatory

Table: Self explanatory

Quicktime: Self explanatory

Circle with arrow: Controls slide linking. See the last Keynote preview picture.

[iBookmaster]

Originally posted by Tsilou B.:
Question for someone who's at MacWorld

Does Pages support subscript and superscript? I cannot find these options in the character palette on the screenshots.

This is a review of Pages and the other announced items at MacWorld Expo. I think Pages is going to turn out to be a good app. We need to remember, it's a 1.0 version. After a few updates, it may actually turn out to be a cross between AppleWorks, PageMaker, InDesign and Word.

iWork toolbar screenshot!

[kcmac]

Thanks. I figured most of that because I have Keynote 1. Would like to see them to see what might be new/additions.

I am also interested in seeing the drop down menu for the lists. Hopefully, pages can do bulleting, numbering etc. with aplomb. The third party guys really have trouble with this one. Word's system is pretty pathetic as well.

[kcmac]

Originally posted by iBookmaster:
This is a review of Pages and the other announced items at MacWorld Expo. I think Pages is going to turn out to be a good app. We need to remember, it's a 1.0 version. After a few updates, it may actually turn out to be a cross between AppleWorks, PageMaker, InDesign and Word.

iWork toolbar screenshot!

That is Jade's review that I alluded to earlier. It is just a quick glance. I would think he will do more later as will others. That's what I am waiting for until I can actually use it myself.

[jamesl]

Say if apple launch cells or a smi,iar application for iWork, how soon is it expected to be?

Personally, I think that if they introduce a spreadsheet application into iworks, it will be a replacement for appleworks, as i suspect not many poeple use the database application.

COuld apple launch the new product without it being announced at a special meeting?

[Chuckit]

Apple could launch a new product anytime it wants. However, they likely won't introduce it until the next version of iWork. If it was really close to completion, I'd expect them to have said something about it.

[Quadra]

Hmm, seems you need a DVD drive to install iWork...how lame.

Ok, so I ought to upgrade, but me ibook came with a cd (only), as I have no need for a combo drive or DVD.

This DVD requirement seems a little retarded though, I'm not alone with an ibook with cd only.

Got the hardware( G3 700 with 640/16V), but chumped by the delivery method.

So going to be Keeping with Office for now.


Hope this is a mistake, never heard of a requiring a DVD to install an application.

Anyone else? Advise?

[Devin Lane]

You don't know anyone with a DVD drive? Shouldn't be hard to transfer it over a LAN or something.

[iluvmymactoo]

Originally posted by Quadra:
Hmm, seems you need a DVD drive to install iWork...how lame.

Ok, so I ought to upgrade, but me ibook came with a cd (only), as I have no need for a combo drive or DVD.

This DVD requirement seems a little retarded though, I'm not alone with an ibook with cd only.

Got the hardware( G3 700 with 640/16V), but chumped by the delivery method.

So going to be Keeping with Office for now.


Hope this is a mistake, never heard of a requiring a DVD to install an application.

Anyone else? Advise?

There is a cd version available. Check the Apple Online Store.

[JohnnyQuest]

I haven't noticed this anywhere on Apple's site so I'm guessing the answer is a "no," but does Pages have a built-in grammar checking tool? It's not necessary by any means, but it would be a nice little bonus for idiots like myself.

[midwinter]

I know that many people, for some bizarre reason, like the grammar checkers, but I wish they could be wiped from the face of the earth.

[MacGorilla]

Originally posted by midwinter:
I know that many people, for some bizarre reason, like the grammar checkers, but I wish they could be wiped from the face of the earth.

I agree. They're not terribly useful.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by MacGorilla:
I agree. They're not terribly useful.

They're worse than not useful. They're like having a watch that tells you the time, but about 70% of the time gets the time wrong and about 40% of the time tells it to you in a language you don't understand.

[mgehman]

Don't know if this has been asked, but does anyone know if the feature set will include an option to insert the date and keep it current automatically. I give the same lecture over and over, powerpoint has a feature that you can insert the date on the title page and everytime you open that presentation the date will automatically be updated to the current date. Otherwise, you have to change the date everytime you give the lecture. Just a little annoyance but it would be a great feature.

[undotwa]

Originally posted by midwinter:
I know that many people, for some bizarre reason, like the grammar checkers, but I wish they could be wiped from the face of the earth.

Sometimes grammar checkers can be useful. Sometimes one slips in a verb and subject with different numbers or one suddenly forgets the rules of 'less' and 'fewer'.

[Miniryu]

Originally posted by undotwa:
Sometimes grammar checkers can be useful. Sometimes one slips in a verb and subject with different numbers or one suddenly forgets the rules of 'less' and 'fewer'.

I have a tendency to put too many spaces between words, and grammar checks are superuseful to me- it is ha4rd to see double spaces with many fonts, so once its typed i won't know it until its printed (w/o a gc that is).

[PurpleGiant]

Originally posted by mgehman:
does anyone know if the feature set will include an option to insert the date and keep it current automatically.

AppleWorks has that feature (and has back to ClarisWorks 2 from memory), as does Word. I assume iWorks will also.