[ghost_flash]

"Kerry's mother was a Forbs wasn't she? I have seen pictures of Kerry on a yacht with JFK. He was in the navy in Vietnam came home and went back to captain a gunboat in Mekong Delta. He got a silver star and a bronze star and a purple heart. He was only on the boat about 4 months he came home because was wounded three times. I don't think he was ever in the hospital for any wounds. His silver star came from turning his boat into an ambush. The ambush consisted of one VC with a grenade launcher with one shot. The boat had more firepower than a whole infantry platoon. The 50 cal. MG had already pulverized the VC's position Kerry then jumped off the boat and brought back the launcher no rifle. Apparently the VC was un armed after the first shot. If Kerry had not been "who he was" it would have been hard to get to captain the gunboat and probably would not have been put in for a medal. I got this info off the net. I was in the infantry and went from squad leader, to platoon sgt., to platoon leader I got a couple of bronze stars and a purple heart. I was in the hospital & recuperation for two months. I thought you had to be hospitalized to get a purple heart until recently. Most of the guys in my platoon were hit with shrapnel several times and we did not get purple hearts for them. I was hit in the ankle, the back, and the left leg, under the left eye, and right shoulder all very minor. My point is that many of our guys did more every day for a year in the boonies than Kerry did and received no medals. With the exception of one man Ernest Stapleton who got two silver stars and three bronze stars. We were not hero's we just did our jobs. I was twenty years old at the time. Unless there is more than what I read Kerry is no HERO! Had he not been "somebody" (rich kid) He would have had no medals. He did go but his sellout of the pows and support of the communists and protesters is inexcuseable!"

-Vietnam Vet


More on his records (150 pages) to come...

[Logic]

So where is Bush's record of serving in the war?

[ghost_flash]

Originally posted by Logic:
So where is Bush's record of serving in the war?

Already defended and posted long ago. Now we are finally getting to Kerry's end of this argument. He offered a long time ago but never followed through. A pattern?

Thanks, start your own thread on Bush if you like, or stay on topic.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Logic:
So where is Bush's record of serving in the war?

Bush's is "lame" too... but Bush never said he was a "hero" either.

[ghost_flash]

"People in the office were saying, I don't think we got any fire, and there is this guy with this little piece of shrapnel in his hand."

This from Kerry's Commander! about his first Purple Heart.

[UNTeMac]

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
"Kerry's mother was a Forbs wasn't she? I have seen pictures of Kerry on a yacht with JFK.

<snip>

I don't think he was ever in the hospital for any wounds.

<snip>

If Kerry had not been "who he was" it would have been hard to get to captain the gunboat and probably would not have been put in for a medal. I got this info off the net.

<snip>

Had he not been "somebody" (rich kid) He would have had no medals. He did go but his sellout of the pows and support of the communists and protesters is inexcuseable!"

-Vietnam Vet

Terribly reliable source you have there. Care to post any actual facts? or will you just continue with the partisan-tinged anecdotes?

[netgear]

Wow, the silver spoon got a splinter of metal in him. What a hero!

[Logic]

Originally posted by netgear:
Wow, the silver spoon got a splinter of metal in him. What a hero!

Did W get a splinter of metal in him?

Did even see any real fighting?

He brought this subject up and not Kerry. Not that I care, with Bush as president for 4 more years the only thing certain is that the US will no longer be a superpower when he is done with the job.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Logic:
Did W get a splinter of metal in him?

Did even see any real fighting?

He brought this subject up and not Kerry. Not that I care, with Bush as president for 4 more years the only thing certain is that the US will no longer be a superpower when he is done with the job.

Wow, is that incorrect. But, man, I wish it were true... would that mean we wouldn't have to give every chump country in the world money anymore? Maybe they'd actually stop asking us for assistance? Ooooo... I'm all aflutter with hope.

also, like I said earlier, Bush never claimed he was a war hero either, Kerry did.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by UNTiMac:
Terribly reliable source you have there. Care to post any actual facts? or will you just continue with the partisan-tinged anecdotes?

More facts will be posted when Kerry decides to quit being a coward and release all the records... but then again, he's so used to playing that role.

[netgear]

Originally posted by Logic:
Did W get a splinter of metal in him?

Did even see any real fighting?

He brought this subject up and not Kerry. Not that I care, with Bush as president for 4 more years the only thing certain is that the US will no longer be a superpower when he is done with the job.

Cause a splinter of metal makes Kerry a real man? Yes, the same silver spoon with nearly half a billion dollars in assets?

Kerry is a pussy. Let him lose a leg or arm then he becomes a real here.

[UNTeMac]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
More facts will be posted when Kerry decides to quit being a coward and release all the records... but then again, he's so used to playing that role.

Once again, a partisan barb with no facts to back it up. Sounds great on the radio, don't work so well in actual discussion.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by UNTiMac:
Once again, a partisan barb with no facts to back it up. Sounds great on the radio, don't work so well in actual discussion.

Then why hasn't he released them? It's all about to fall apart for the old boy, should be entertaining to see.

And of course we're partisan, who said we weren't?

[zigzag]

When you guys are out of sixth grade you might be able to grasp that Kerry earned his Bronze and Silver Stars and no one has ever demonstrated otherwise. The biggest complaint was that he was brave to the point of being reckless. If you still want to call him a pussy and a coward, fine, but it only makes you look like jerks, for the same reason that the people who questioned John McCain's courage in 2000 - also on behalf of your candidate - were jerks.

What he did or is doing otherwise is a different matter and is fair game for debate and criticism. Call him a liar, a hypocrite, whatever, but you probably shouldn't call a decorated soldier a pussy and a coward if you haven't stood in his shoes.

[netgear]

A soldier with a decoration that wasn't truly earned isn't one to be respected in my book. A man may have medals but medals do not make one a man.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by zigzag:
When you guys are out of sixth grade you might be able to grasp that Kerry earned his Bronze and Silver Stars and no one has ever demonstrated otherwise. The biggest complaint was that he was brave to the point of being reckless. If you still want to call him a pussy and a coward, fine, but it only makes you look like jerks, for the same reason that the people who questioned John McCain's courage in 2000 - also on behalf of your candidate - were jerks.

What he did or is doing otherwise is a different matter and is fair game for debate and criticism. Call him a liar, a hypocrite, whatever, but you probably shouldn't call a decorated soldier a pussy and a coward if you haven't stood in his shoes.

Bulloney, I have a relative who threw a grenade into crowded van in Panama and got the Bronze star. No real threat, just weapons being transported in the cargo area. Doesn't sound particularly brave, does it? And we have shown otherwise, other soldiers who served with him who said he was a coward.

and comparing McCain, a TRUE war hero and decorated POW, to a loser like Kerry is just lame. However, he could still prove me wrong. I'm willing to look over his full military record and reassess.

[zigzag]

Originally posted by netgear:
A soldier with a decoration that wasn't truly earned isn't one to be respected in my book.

[T]he Silver Star citation makes clear that Kerry's performance on that day was both extraordinary and risky. "With utter disregard for his own safety and the enemy rockets," the citation says, Kerry "again ordered a charge on the enemy, beached his boat only 10 feet from the Viet Cong rocket position and personally led a landing party ashore in pursuit of the enemy. ... The extraordinary daring and personal courage of Lt. Kerry in attacking a numerically superior force in the face of intense fire were responsible for the highly successful mission."

. . .

A couple of weeks later, on March 13, 1969, a mine detonated near Kerry's boat, wounding Kerry in the right arm, according to the citation written by Zumwalt. Guerrillas started firing on the boats from the shoreline. Kerry then realized that he had lost overboard a Green Beret who is identified only as "Rassman."

"The man was receiving sniper fire from both banks," according to Kerry's Bronze Star citation from that day. "Lt. Kerry directed his gunners to provide suppressing fire, while from an exposed position on the bow, his arm bleeding and in pain, with disregard for his personal safety, he pulled the man aboard. Lt. Kerry then directed his boat to return and assist the other damaged craft and towed the boat to safety. Lt. Kerry's calmness, professionalism and great personal courage under fire were in keeping with the highest traditions of the US Naval Service," Zumwalt's citation said.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by zigzag:

Kerry's writing is just so good. Puts me in mind of Tolkien... such vision.

[netgear]

No kidding.

[netgear]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Bulloney, I have a relative who threw a grenade into crowded van in Panama and got the Bronze star. No real threat, just weapons being transported in the cargo area. Doesn't sound particularly brave, does it? And we have shown otherwise, other soldiers who served with him who said he was a coward.

and comparing McCain, a TRUE war hero and decorated POW, to a loser like Kerry is just lame. However, he could still prove me wrong. I'm willing to look over his full military record and reassess.

McCain is a real hero. Silver Spoon Kerry? Hardly.

[zigzag]

The citation was written by Admiral Zumwalt, whose son was also a boat captain. Why don't you insult them while you're at it.

Under Zumwalt's command, swift boats would aggressively engage the enemy. Zumwalt, who died in 2000, calculated in his autobiography that these men under his command had a 75 percent chance of being killed or wounded during a typical year. (This wasn't just a statistical concern; one of the swift boat sailors was his son, Lieutenant Elmo Zumwalt III.)

[itai195]

Elmo Zumwalt III?




LOL!



Sorry, I really should be ashamed, but that's one of the most hilarious names ever.

[zigzag]

dp

[Hash]

interesting how ghostflash shut up, maybe his source of anecdotes dried up?

[BRussell]

Kerry is a pussy. Going to war is nothing. I live with three women. Now THAT takes courage.

[zachs]

Originally posted by Logic:
So where is Bush's record of serving in the war?

Right. Here. Compare and contrast.

Edit: And here

[ghost_flash]

Originally posted by zigzag:
When you guys are out of sixth grade you might be able to grasp that Kerry earned his Bronze and Silver Stars and no one has ever demonstrated otherwise.

The silver star was earned in a "firefight" with ONE guy... lol. That's hilarious.

He had a boatload of muscle and this one guy had one shot. Thumbs Up!

[ghost_flash]

Originally posted by Hash:
interesting how ghostflash shut up, maybe his source of anecdotes dried up?

I have a life... but I'm back now. Did you miss me? Awe.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by netgear:
McCain is a real hero. Silver Spoon Kerry? Hardly.

I respect anyone who spent that much time in the Hanoi Hilton.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by zigzag:
The citation was written by Admiral Zumwalt, whose son was also a boat captain. Why don't you insult them while you're at it.

No, the citation was signed by Elmo. Big difference.

A one man fire fight?!? Where's my Silver Star? I had a worse altercation than that last time I was in L.A..

Still waiting to see all the records... C'mon Kerry, whacha hidin'?

[Hash]

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
I have a life...

what a surprise

i was thinking that you spend all your time searching for anonymous anecdotes.

I also have one ready for you, about how Bush heroically saved the world on a verge of attack by Hussein with use of all possible and impossible WMD and how he heroically fought Powell in his office..and Armitage.. sure impressive how he could overpower those two former military officers.. he deserves more medals than Kerry who was fighting with a lone VC, who just happened to
1. fire sniper fire FROM BOTH banks of river on boats
2. damage few boats (so Kerry not was only wounded himself, but still had to assist ANOTHER damaged boat)
3. wound another US soldiers, one of whom again wounded Kerry had to pull aboard

Sure it was a Rambo VC, cause only Rambo could fire simultaneosly from two sides of river.. or could not he? But in the ghostflush world, surely what Kerry had to experience, nothing compared to what Bush endured during his fight with Powell..

[ghost_flash]

Try it again without the personal attack. Then maybe I'll respond.

[UNTeMac]

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
The silver star was earned in a "firefight" with ONE guy... lol. That's hilarious.

He had a boatload of muscle and this one guy had one shot. Thumbs Up!

I wonder if any veterans would take offense to that. You weren't there. Neither were we. Let's leave it at that rather than casting your inexperience and clearly ulterior motives onto an event you know nothing about.

[zachs]

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
The silver star was earned in a "firefight" with ONE guy... lol. That's hilarious.

He killed a guerrilla who had a rocket launcher in-hand, while being surrounded and shot at by the enemy. Read:

The first test of manhood for both of them came in the late 1960s near the playing fields of New Haven. John Kerry, Yale class of 1966, enlisted in the Navy and was sent to Vietnam the year after. On his first tour of duty, he was a deck officer on the USS Gridley. His second was commanding a Swift boat in the Mekong Delta, intercepting supplies and reinforcements sent down from the north. He was wounded three times, and won a Bronze Star when he risked his life to pull a shipmate out of the river during a firefight. He won a Silver Star when he steered his boat into enemy fire, beached it, and chased down, shot, and killed a Viet Cong guerrilla about to aim a rocket launcher at his men.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by zachs:
He killed a guerrilla who had a rocket launcher in-hand, while being surrounded and shot at by the enemy. Read:

Hero... yeah, right... then why is he STILL keeping part of his record a secret? WHY do some of the guys he served with say he was a coward. Why? That's what I, and most others, want to know.

[OreoCookie]

Kerry was in Vietnam, Bush wasn't. That's fact.

No matter the circumstances, it is also fact that Kerry received medals of honor whereas Bush did not, instead he lost his license to take off the ground.

If you want to argue against Kerry, choose a topic Bush can win, because Bush's track record is definitely weaker. So why don't you Bush people accept that and elect Bush, because you like him better for different reasons (like war on terror, tax cuts or whatever). It's ok, nobody's perfect, so both have their weak spots.

But in case of their military records, Bush looses. This is not all a candidate's reputation is built of.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by UNTiMac:
I wonder if any veterans would take offense to that. You weren't there. Neither were we. Let's leave it at that rather than casting your inexperience and clearly ulterior motives onto an event you know nothing about.

and YOUR ulterior motives? C'mon it just sounds so damned improbable, and the purple hearts, AND his still hidden records. Somebody's blowing sunshine up someone's ass, and why is it I feel the public's the one being violated?

[zachs]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Hero... yeah, right... then why is he STILL keeping part of his record a secret? WHY do some of the guys he served with say he was a coward. Why? That's what I, and most others, want to know.

Did he receive the award? Yes. So obviously more than one person felt he had done something to deserve it. Like this:

Throughout his four years of active duty, Kerry's superiors gave him glowing evaluations, citing his maturity, intelligence and immaculate appearance. He was recommended for early promotion, and when he left the Navy in 1970 to run for Congress, his commanding officer said it was the Navy's loss.

[zachs]

The short version:

Kerry:

Intelligent, mature and rich in educational background and experience, Ens Kerry is one of the finest young officers I have ever met and without question one of the most promising.

Bush:

Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of report.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
Kerry was in Vietnam, Bush wasn't. That's fact.

No matter the circumstances, it is also fact that Kerry received medals of honor whereas Bush did not, instead he lost his license to take off the ground.

If you want to argue against Kerry, choose a topic Bush can win, because Bush's track record is definitely weaker. So why don't you Bush people accept that and elect Bush, because you like him better for different reasons (like war on terror, tax cuts or whatever). It's ok, nobody's perfect, so both have their weak spots.

But in case of their military records, Bush looses. This is not all a candidate's reputation is built of.

and lying about self-trumped medals isn't a good sign the guy's a scumbag? And no, this is fun and I plan to ride it out until all of Kerry's record surfaces. This forum is just entertainment, NO ONE here is going to change their political mind over something read here. We all post here (in the political forum, and maybe the Lounge in general) to banter, jab, and try and prove the "other side" wrong. Some threads aren't debates, but the ones that are all follow this same truth. That's just the way it is.

Here's a hint... NO PERSON WHO IS A LIFELONG POLITICIAN IS A DECENT PERSON. They SCREW people for a living. They lie, cheat, and generally use anyone to make themselves more powerful, whether they be a Democrat, Republican, or whatever. You simply find the "scumbag" who is most likely to do what you want and vote for them. Yeah, Bush is my "scumbag" of choice right now, as I thought he'd be most likely to give me the tax cuts I want... and so far, he's done an admirable job in that area.

Now, let the games continue.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by zachs:
Did he receive the award? Yes. So obviously more than one person felt he had done something to deserve it. Like this:

Then why do others say he's a coward? Why won't he release his FULL record?

and like I said previously, I have a relative who killed a van full of people with a grenade over there being some weapons in the van's cargo area... weapons that were suspected but not 100% known. I suppose he was "lucky" the intel was correct, eh? And he ALSO got the Silver Star for it. Medals are very political in the military, some guys earn them, some don't. That's just the way it works.

[zachs]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Then why do others say he's a coward? Why won't he release his FULL record?

You could probably take anyone who served in Vietnam, and find people who would call them cowards. Personal grudges, perhaps?

And which parts? His medical records? You'll be calling on Bush to do the same....right?

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by zachs:
You could probably take anyone who served in Vietnam, and find people who would call them cowards. Personal grudges, perhaps?

And which parts? His medical records? You'll be calling on Bush to do the same....right?

I dunno which parts, he hasn't released them. We simply know they exist, he's the one hiding them. And yeah, I don't care whose records become public if they're running for office. It's all part of the fun.

[ghost_flash]

"John Kerry's Purple Hearts
Purple Heart Number One:

The Boston Globe - June 6, 2003 -- Kerry experienced his first intense combat action on Dec. 2, 1968, when he "semi-volunteered for, was semi-drafted" for a risky covert mission in which he essentially was supposed to "flush out" the enemy, using a little Boston Whaler named "Batman." A larger backup craft was called "Robin."
Unfortunately, Robin had engine trouble, and Batman's exit was delayed until the boats could depart in unison. The Batman crew encountered some Viet Cong, engaged in a firefight, and Kerry was slightly wounded on his arm, earning his first Purple Heart on his first day of serious action.
"It was not a very serious wound at all," recalled William Schachte, who oversaw the mission and went on to become a rear admiral.

Purple Heart Number Two:

The Boston Globe - June 6, 2003 -- On Feb. 20, 1969, Kerry earned his second Purple Heart after sustaining a shrapnel wound in his left thigh. According to a previously unreported Navy report on the battle, a two-boat patrol spotted three men on a riverbank who were wearing black pajamas and running and engaged them in a firefight. While not criticizing this engagement, the Navy report did challenge the decision of unnamed skippers to fire at other "targets of opportunity" in the area.
"Area seemed extremely prosperous and open to psyops action, minimum number of defensive and no offensive bunkers detected," the report said. The naval official who wrote the report concluded: "Future missions in this area should be oriented toward psyops rather than destruction."
The destruction included 40 sampans, 10 hut-style hootches, three bunkers, and 5,000 pounds of rice. The crews from two swift boats had expended more than 14,000 rounds of.50-caliber ammunition. No enemy casualties were reported.

Purple Heart Number Three

The Boston Globe June 6, 2003 --. . . On March 13, 1969, a mine detonated near Kerry's boat, wounding Kerry in the right arm, according to the citation written by [Navy Admiral Elmo "Bud"] Zumwalt. Guerrillas started firing on the boats from the shoreline. Kerry then realized that he had lost overboard a Green Beret who is identified only as "Rassman."
"The man was receiving sniper fire from both banks," according to Kerry's Bronze Star citation from that day. "Lt. Kerry directed his gunners to provide suppressing fire, while from an exposed position on the bow, his arm bleeding and in pain, with disregard for his personal safety, he pulled the man aboard. Lt. Kerry then directed his boat to return and assist the other damaged craft and towed the boat to safety. Lt. Kerry's calmness, professionalism and great personal courage under fire were in keeping with the highest traditions of the US Naval Service," Zumwalt's citation said.

Home Free:

The Boston Globe June 6, 2003 -- Kerry had been wounded three times and received three Purple Hearts. Asked about the severity of the wounds, Kerry said that one of them cost him about two days of service, and that the other two did not interrupt his duty. "Walking wounded," as Kerry put it. A shrapnel wound in his left arm gave Kerry pain for years. Kerry declined a request from the Globe to sign a waiver authorizing the release of military documents that are covered under the Privacy Act and that might shed more light on the extent of the treatment Kerry needed as a result of the wounds.
"There were an awful lot of Purple Hearts -- from shrapnel, some of those might have been M-40 grenades," said [George] Elliott, Kerry's commanding officer. "The Purple Hearts were coming down in boxes. Kerry, he had three Purple Hearts. None of them took him off duty. Not to belittle it, that was more the rule than the exception."
The Boston Globe - June 6, 2003 -- . . . The National Archives provided the Globe with a Navy "instruction" document that formed the basis for Kerry's request. The instruction, titled 1300.39, says that a Naval officer who requires hospitalization on two separate occasions, or who receives three wounds "regardless of the nature of the wounds," can ask a superior officer to request a reassignment. The instruction makes clear the reassignment is not automatic. It says that the reassignment "will be determined after consideration of his physical classification for duty and on an individual basis."
Because Kerry's wounds were not considered serious, his reassignment appears to have been made on an individual basis.
Moreover, the instruction makes clear that Kerry could have asked that any reassignment be waived.
The bottom line is that Kerry could have remained but he chose to seek an early transfer . . ."


So, yes, let's see the medical records and the rest that are being hidden.


Fellow Vet Blasts Kerry:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...ary/index.html

More links:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1121809/posts

[itai195]

Why does this conversation eerily remind me of one we had a couple months ago about a certain Republican candidate for president... Interesting how the roles have changed.

I say to it all.

[BlackGriffen]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
I dunno which parts, he hasn't released them. We simply know they exist, he's the one hiding them. And yeah, I don't care whose records become public if they're running for office. It's all part of the fun.

I don't know if it's all of them, but:

WASHINGTON -- Records of John Kerry's Vietnam War service released Wednesday show a highly praised naval officer with an Ivy League education who spoke fluent French and had raced sailboats -- the fruits of a privileged upbringing that set him apart from the typical seaman.

With Republicans questioning his service in Vietnam, the Democratic candidate for president posted more than 120 pages of military records on his campaign Web site. Several describe him as a gutsy commander undertaking a dangerous assignment in Vietnam and detail some of the actions that won three Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star and a Silver Star.

If that's the whole story, it sounds like the conservative attack dogs got suckered right into a trap. Now his records will get far more coverage than if he had released them before.

BlackGriffen

[Spliffdaddy]

I'm beginning to wonder if the DNC is even gonna give Kerry the nomination.

They haven't yet.

Looks like I might be right after all.

Hope you folks like Gephardt.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by BlackGriffen:
If that's the whole story, it sounds like the conservative attack dogs got suckered right into a trap.

Is Tim Russert a conservative? He's the one who brought it up to Kerry on Sunday, and it was a Boston Globe and NewsMax reporter who was denied the records the next 2 days when he went to Kerry headquarters.

Conservatives simply stated that his records should be released, just like Bush's were pressed to be be released. I'd hardly call that an attack.

[AKcrab]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Why won't he release his FULL record?

120 pages of stuff.
Why don't we think that's his FULL records?

[Powerbook]

Honestly, from outside the U.S. it looks PATHETIC to tear this man into the mud. Bush's personal war record is a joke compared to Kerry's, this contest can't work as Bush campaign help (I hope).

Add:
"Veteran's benefits
The dustup over Kerry's military records could be just the opportuntity he needs to kickstart his general election campaign.

During the Democratic primary, nothing impressed voters as much as stories of Kerry's war heroism
[...]
"
from http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...oks/index.html


PB.