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ghost_flash · May 7, 2004, 10:00 AM

Go here and check out what some professionals have to say about the subject. -

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...essage=8640874

"The media outlets had all known about an ongoing investigation since January, and were all privey to a report. They don't write anything about it.... until pictures?"

How many US/UK soldiers will die because of the widespread constant release of these on television. Over and over and over and over and over.

rjenkinson · May 7, 2004, 10:13 AM

that's one annoying layout to read.

-r.

mitchell_pgh · May 7, 2004, 10:25 AM

The crap part is... some of the photos out there are real.

Most people want to believe that the US is evil.

Spheric Harlot · May 7, 2004, 10:26 AM

i got annoyed after the first five or so posts, since the layout gets even more annoying if you're on dial-up via mobile and paying by the kilobyte.

Is there any "professional" opinion in there, other than that they're most likely NOT photoshopped?

I'm not quite sure what makes a "pro" photographer more qualified to spot whether a shot is staged or not.

And what's with posting this in the Lounge proper?

Somebody lock the Pol forum for you again?

-s*

BasketofPuppies · May 7, 2004, 10:30 AM

You mean to tell me that the Daily Mirror is a tabloid newspaper?

Next you'll be telling me that The Larry Sanders Show wasn't a real talk show.

mitchell_pgh · May 7, 2004, 10:43 AM

Like one of the posters said...

It's not that they Photoshoped the images, but rather they were staged.

They are finding that some of the uniforms aren't matching up... (they have old guns or pieces of uniforms that are out of date or not currently being used in Iraq)

Zimphire · May 7, 2004, 10:50 AM

Some people will believe anything as long as it fits their narrow view of things.

theolein · May 7, 2004, 10:50 AM

Despite the mirth that this wild denial is generating ('teh haters made us do it/tehy were just kidding/it was part of a thanksgiving turkey hunt/fu�k 'em all anyway/nuke iraq/teh police in virginia are worse than that'), this belongs in the hall of flames.

ghost_flash · May 7, 2004, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Some people will believe anything as long as it fits their narrow view of things.

You are right, and others will just post something just to post (something).... Look up.

Zimphire · May 7, 2004, 10:56 AM

BasketofPuppies · May 7, 2004, 10:57 AM

In before Trogdor.

Wiskedjak · May 7, 2004, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
The crap part is... some of the photos out there are real.

Most people want to believe that the US is evil.

This story is about photos of British soldiers torturing Iraqi prisoners and has absolutely nothing to do with the issue of American soldiers torturing Iraqi prisoners.

Zimphire · May 7, 2004, 11:13 AM

Of course! Only the British photos were faked!

Wiskedjak · May 7, 2004, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Of course! Only the British photos were faked!

The story at issue here is not about the photos of American soldiers torturing Iraqi prisoners. If those photos (the ones of American soldier actions which the President apologized for) were faked, someone should have mentioned that to the President before he publicly apologized for those actions.

Just because these photos of British soldiers were faked, does not mean that those photos of American soldiers were faked.

Perhaps soldiers should be taught not to take photos of their illegal activities. We wouldn't have this mess then.

Zimphire · May 7, 2004, 11:24 AM

It's not really proven either way. I wouldn't want to make a uneducated guess and say YUP! They are real 100%

I agree, Bush should have waited.

BTW, there is a batboy running around here in the hills of WV. They even have pictures.

dreilly1 · May 7, 2004, 11:25 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Of course! Only the British photos were faked!

Do you think the American photos were faked? In that case, what are all those soldiers getting disciplined for?

Wiskedjak · May 7, 2004, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I wouldn't want to make a uneducated guess ...

As opposed to making an uneducated guess about the presence of WMD in Iraq? There weren't even faked photos about those.

Zimphire · May 7, 2004, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by dreilly1:
Do you think the American photos were faked?

No, I said I didn't know.

Zimphire · May 7, 2004, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
As opposed to making an uneducated guess about the presence of WMD in Iraq? There weren't even faked photos about those.

Uneducated? Who are you trying to fool? Iraq HAD weapons. We just didn't know what they DID with them. And it was up to Iraq to provide that information.

Guess who failed to do that?

Wiskedjak · 12:01 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Uneducated? Who are you trying to fool? Iraq HAD them. We just didn't know what they DID with them.

You're funny.
How much more information do you have about WMD in Iraq than you have about photos of American soldiers torturing Iraqi prisoners?

Socially Awkward Solo · May 7, 2004, 11:56 AM

The photos HAVE to be fake. It is totally uncharacteristic for the US to do anything like that, it could never happen.

york28 · May 7, 2004, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
... If those photos (the ones of American soldier actions which the President apologized for) were faked...

To my knowledge, Bush has yet to apoligize for anything, let alone admit to making a mistake.

He specifically neglected to apoligize when he was on the Arab television channel this week- which I see as disrespectful even not being directly involved.

Zimphire · May 7, 2004, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
You're funny.
How much more information do you have about WMD in Iraq than you have about photos of American soldiers torturing Iraqi prisoners?

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9802/17/iraq.clinton/

MacGorilla · May 7, 2004, 12:25 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Some people will believe anything as long as it fits their narrow view of things.

Yes!

Zimphire · May 7, 2004, 12:26 PM

Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:
The photos HAVE to be fake. It is totally uncharacteristic for the US to do anything like that, it could never happen.

If it did indeed happen, the "US" didn't do it. This was a isolated incident done by some misdirected US soldiers, if it indeed happened.

The US wasn't telling the soldiers to do these things.

Lets be a bit honest.

wdlove · May 7, 2004, 12:30 PM

In the age of computers we do have to be on guard for fake photo's. The were stupid to take the photo's!

dreilly1 · May 7, 2004, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by york28:
To my knowledge, Bush has yet to apoligize for anything, let alone admit to making a mistake.

He specifically neglected to apoligize when he was on the Arab television channel this week- which I see as disrespectful even not being directly involved.

From http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...ain/index.html :

At a news conference following a meeting with Jordan's King Abdullah II, Bush said he was "sorry for the humiliation suffered" by Iraqi prisoners at the hands of U.S. troops.

(FYI, That same article states that this morning Rumsfeld told Congress that he takes full responsibility for what happened.)

I do believe that this apology was sincere. And you can ask Zim, I'm no fan of GWB.

Zimphire · May 7, 2004, 12:34 PM

I just think it's funny that people are SO critical with the way the US solidiers act, but are apologetic with say, how the Iraqi soldiers acted.

"They have a different community, live by different rules"

"They aren't as advanced as US"

"Their values are different"

We are all human. Humans make mistakes.

But SHAME on the people that try to paint this out to be the norm that is going on.

Shame.

Here in the US, soldiers get PUNISHED instead of PRAISED for doing such things.

But you never see people going on about that.

Wiskedjak · May 7, 2004, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I just think it's funny that people are SO critical with the way the US solidiers act, but are apologetic with say, how the Iraqi soldiers acted.

I'm critical of US soldiers because of the very high pedestal the US puts them on.

scaught · May 7, 2004, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Some people will believe anything as long as it fits their narrow view of things.

boy. you said a mouthful.

MacGorilla · May 7, 2004, 12:39 PM

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
I'm critical of US soldiers because of the very high pedestal the US puts them on.

The higher the perch, the harder the fall.

wdlove · May 7, 2004, 12:40 PM

Sec. Rumsfeld has apologized and I believe that he is sincere. Yes those responsible should be punished. I'm proud of our military. 99% of them serve honorably, my prayers go out to them.

Zimphire · May 7, 2004, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
I'm critical of US soldiers because of the very high pedestal the US puts them on.

Well you know we DO Punish the ones that act up. Unlike other "militaries" out there.

Wiskedjak · May 7, 2004, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Well you know we DO Punish the ones that act up. Unlike other "militaries" out there.

Would the American soldiers in question have been punished had the photos not become public?

Zimphire · May 7, 2004, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Would the American soldiers in question have been punished had the photos not become public?

Well yes. They didn't get punished because it was made public.

There are a lot of things soldiers get punished for that isn't made public.

Ask anyone in the armed forces.

Wiskedjak · May 7, 2004, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Well yes. They didn't get punished because it was made public.

So, you're beginning to accept that the American photos are not fakes?

Zimphire · May 7, 2004, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Then why weren't they punished as soon as their actions were known to their superiors?

Do you know WHEN their actions were known? Do you know WHEN they were punished?

It's not like this stuff just happened ... it's been going on for months.

No, wait. This happened months ago. This doesn't happen ALL THE TIME.

At least there is no indication it has been.

These people were doing bad things.

They will be punished.

It's NOT the norm. Unlike other militaries.

Zimphire · May 7, 2004, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
So, you're beginning to accept that the American photos are not fakes?

No, I am saying I don't know. Because I don't.

Do I think bad people do bad things during war? Yes. And they need punished for it.

OH-N'omac · May 7, 2004, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Of course! Only the British photos were faked!

Some people will believe anything as long as it fits their narrow view of things.

Wiskedjak · 06:08 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:

Do you know WHEN their actions were known? Do you know WHEN they were punished?

No, wait. This happened months ago. This doesn't happen ALL THE TIME.

" Rumsfeld said the military began investigating the abuse shortly after it was first reported by one GI in January and has already disciplined some captors who were involved. He assured senators that the investigations will not be limited to the privates, sergeants and other low-ranking service personnel."

"the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) said it had warned Washington months ago that U.S. troops had beaten and even killed Iraqis being held in detention. It said maltreatment was so widespread it may have been condoned by U.S.-led forces."

AKcrab · May 7, 2004, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by wdlove:
99% of them serve honorably, my prayers go out to them.

Great. So out of 140,000 troops, only 1400 are bad.

quandarry · May 7, 2004, 09:16 PM

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
Go here and check out what some professionals have to say about the subject. -

"The media outlets had all known about an ongoing investigation since January, and were all privey to a report. They don't write anything about it.... until pictures?"

How many US/UK soldiers will die because of the widespread constant release of these on television. Over and over and over and over and over.

well that's rummy's and bush's problem.

apparently there's videos as well.

rummy has to be fired to make bush's apology look sincere.

wrong forum by the way...should in the fight room.

please move.

Zimphire · May 7, 2004, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
" Rumsfeld said the military began investigating the abuse shortly after it was first reported by one GI in January and has already disciplined some captors who were involved. He assured senators that the investigations will not be limited to the privates, sergeants and other low-ranking service personnel."

Right, After he found out.

"the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) said it had warned Washington months ago that U.S. troops had beaten and even killed Iraqis being held in detention. It said maltreatment was so widespread it may have been condoned by U.S.-led forces."

I am sure there was bad things going on. But TRC was also getting this information from captors that would claim abuse, abused or not.

Wiskedjak · May 7, 2004, 10:32 PM

Originally posted by quandarry:
well that's rummy's and bush's problem.

Actually, GF is referring to the story at the top of this page. Those photos are Blairs problem.

ambush · May 7, 2004, 11:29 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Some people will believe anything as long as it fits their narrow view of things.

And you are the perfect example.

OreoCookie · May 8, 2004, 01:32 AM

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
The crap part is... some of the photos out there are real.

Most people want to believe that the US is evil.

No, the people just realize that Americans are no more or less evil than Iraqis, Germans, French, British, and Polish.

ambush · May 8, 2004, 01:38 AM

Originally posted by wdlove:
Sec. Rumsfeld has apologized and I believe that he is sincere. Yes those responsible should be punished. I'm proud of our military. 99% of them serve honorably, my prayers go out to them.

BUT they sin on a daily basis.

God said to help and love your fellow.

Socially Awkward Solo · May 8, 2004, 02:38 AM

Originally posted by wdlove:
99% of them serve honorably, my prayers go out to them.

Where did you get that number?

ebuddy · May 8, 2004, 03:41 AM

I think all events like these need perspective.

As far as I know (without jumping to conclusions or reaching for conspiracy) Just as there are those evil enough to commit what I believe are acts caught in reality on photograph, there are those within the same organization that will blow the whistle and effect change. Justice will eventually be served within (while very flawed) the most fair, complex, advanced, and successful system in the World. IMHO. This is the difference. Our differences. Most importantly; our ability to represent, discuss, and vote in accordance with those differences. Our ability to differ without fear of death. We have been placed on a pedestal. A pedestal created not by us here, but those abroad. We put into practice a sweet simplicity we call freedom based on an ingrained desire to eventually endow all with equal pursuit of happiness.

The International Community was opposed to our actions in Iraq in the early 90's, then critiqued our having pulled out "pre-maturely". Those that hate us will simply continue to hate us or hate us more. There is nothing we can do to change those fringes. We are making difficult choices. Agree or disagree, we are indeed making difficult choices. Ladies and Gentlemen, the World as we know it, is no longer and it wasn't 9/11.

9/11 unfortunately, will always eventually occur and will occur again. Our reactions were supported by the masses because of emotion and no administration would've acted better or worse or even differently. I think to be clear, our actions in Iraq are not to be confused with retaliation of any sort for the terrorist attacks on 9/11. 9/11 became an opportunity for the US to position itself strategically on the Globe. Not planned mind you. Let's face it folks, at some point whether you like it or not there will be a developing ideal as we move toward a socially globalized earth. What do you want the predominant ideal to look like? I don't really want to know. Just know that eventually, some ideal will dominate. We cannot grow or spread if there is a nurtured and educated hatred for our kind in certain regions and under certain administrations. Iraq is right smack-dab in the middle of where we need to win hearts and minds. Not oil people. The long-term political implications behind planting an "American-friendly" government in Iraq are far more valuable than oil. Inaction did nothing. We have many broken agreements and resolutions to prove that. At some point, because of our human limitations, we will eventually come to a head. America does not teach hate formally. It is not sanctioned and funded by the government. The education we receive here embraces cultural diversity. It's required to by law and even the schools use "magnet" programs and require alternate and augmented bus routes to encourage school attendance outside the child's "comfort" zone. We are the most blessed country in the world. We are the most charitible country in the World. I believe in the ideals of democracy, including capitalism, and rugged individualism. I "buy-in" on the ideal that I will get out of this country exactly what I put in. Which do you believe is the more successful system or ideal in the world, because again; it will come down to two at some point.

I don't like to hear comments on; "well, Iraqis have been committing atrocities for centuries, where's the outrage?" Well, first of all it seems to me that most of Saddam's regime understands our rage. So does OBL btw. The crimes we committed in the prisons there were disgusting, dispicable, below us, and not indicative of our collective ideal here. I think most people understand that. For those that don't, watch these perps get their just deserts. Learn.

hagheid · May 8, 2004, 06:28 AM

Another staged performance?
Surely

http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle5365.htm