[::maroma::]

Originally Posted by goMac 

If the phone was corporate friendly they would easily take 1% of the market, more likely far more. I know Apple is going for 1%, but I don't think there would be any argument that more market share faster would be better.

The amount of the population that would be interested in a phone this expensive without support for 3rd party apps is small. Probably under 1%. Anyone who is willing to spend $500 for a phone is going to be looking for 3rd party apps as a feature.

I agree with you that going for 1% faster is better for sure. And I agree that if indeed Apple included these sorts of things in this first version they would've captured more of the market faster.

I also think a lot of people (not saying you in particular) are overlooking the segment of the population who will buy this phone for reasons other than business or productivity. They will buy it for sex appeal, for status, for the sheer gadget envy of the thing. That segment of the population is nothing to scoff at. Its a large part of the user base for iPods. This should be pretty similar.

[Dark Helmet]

How much you want to bet they are doing it on purpose they they can release a higher priced iPhone Pro 8 months later?

More importantly not to rush everything into rev A but make sure rev A is good enough and solid.

I can't tell you how many people complain about the buggy smartphone os that want to do it all on day one but it is so buggy nothing works well.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by ::maroma:: 

I agree with you that going for 1% faster is better for sure. And I agree that if indeed Apple included these sorts of things in this first version they would've captured more of the market faster.

You're forgetting about people who won't buy the iPhone because they don't want to be left behind when Apple does start supporting 3rd party apps. I'm buying the iPhone trusting that it will be able to be upgraded to support 3rd party apps, and hoping Apple opens it up at WWDC.

Originally Posted by ::maroma:: 

I also think a lot of people (not saying you in particular) are overlooking the segment of the population who will buy this phone for reasons other than business or productivity. They will buy it for sex appeal, for status, for the sheer gadget envy of the thing. That segment of the population is nothing to scoff at. Its a large part of the user base for iPods. This should be pretty similar.

And while Apple takes this portion of the market everyone else will move to secure the rest of the market. I'm not saying it's too late, Apple still has time. But 3rd party apps needs to come this year. Any longer, and everyone else will start copying the iPhone and taking all it's good features. I'm really hoping Apple opens up iPhone development at WWDC.

If they don't open up 3rd party development, the iPhone could potentially go the way of the Macintosh.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

How much you want to bet they are doing it on purpose they they can release a higher priced iPhone Pro 8 months later?

Exactly why a lot of people may not buy the iPhone.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Exactly why a lot of people may not buy the iPhone.

That's a fact of life for any consumer electronics. If you wait a year, you get more for cheaper. Same as with the Gen 1 iPods. the 1G iPhone will not be as successful as the 2G or 3G. That's expected.

-t

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Exactly why a lot of people may not buy the iPhone.

So they aren't going to meet their 1% because of this?

[TAZ]

Originally Posted by goMac 

If they don't open up 3rd party development, the iPhone could potentially go the way of the Macintosh.

Ture, unless Apple intends to offer a lot of apps themselves to meet users' needs. One of the biggest issues with all the Smartphones that I have used (Palm, PPC and Windoze Smartphone) was compatibility between various third party apps. Many times the issues with crashes, freezes and resets are traced back to third party apps conflicting not with the base OS, but rather each other. The other thing I would like to verify is that it is in fact OSX running on the phone rather than some slimmed down version.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

So they aren't going to meet their 1% because of this?

I just want the iPhone not to be stuck in a niche. Starting now everyone is going to be working to copy the iPhone. Apple has the chance to make the iPhone very big. I think we can both agree it would be a shame for them to squander it.

Timing is going to be very important. Apple can't wait long to add 3rd party support.

[::maroma::]

Originally Posted by goMac 

And while Apple takes this portion of the market everyone else will move to secure the rest of the market. I'm not saying it's too late, Apple still has time. But 3rd party apps needs to come this year. Any longer, and everyone else will start copying the iPhone and taking all it's good features. I'm really hoping Apple opens up iPhone development at WWDC.

If they don't open up 3rd party development, the iPhone could potentially go the way of the Macintosh.

True, I think they need to address this as soon as possible. But I think that the "fashion" portion of the market I was talking about is something Apple definitely shoots for, but I think its a secondary concern, and they almost don't even have to try, they just have that recognition and great industrial design.

But yes, I totally agree that Apple needs to update and upgrade this product more frequently and more aggressively than any other product, even the iPod. Although its a delicate balance because if they do that too fast it will frighten people away from buying, while they wait for the next one. At any rate, only time will tell. And I have no reason to believe Apple will fall short on this. I believe they will make the right moves.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by TAZ 

Ture, unless Apple intends to offer a lot of apps themselves to meet users' needs. One of the biggest issues with all the Smartphones that I have used (Palm, PPC and Windoze Smartphone) was compatibility between various third party apps. Many times the issues with crashes, freezes and resets are traced back to third party apps conflicting not with the base OS, but rather each other. The other thing I would like to verify is that it is in fact OSX running on the phone rather than some slimmed down version.

Even if the phone is running a slimed down version of OS X, the underpinnings would prevent one application from bringing down the phone. Palm and Windows CE don't share these underpinnings.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by goMac 

I just want the iPhone not to be stuck in a niche. Starting now everyone is going to be working to copy the iPhone. Apple has the chance to make the iPhone very big. I think we can both agree it would be a shame for them to squander it.

Timing is going to be very important. Apple can't wait long to add 3rd party support.

I know what you mean but I don't think for ONE second that by the end of the year it will not be fully open intentionally or not.

No doubt at all.

[kman42]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Even if the phone is running a slimed down version of OS X, the underpinnings would prevent one application from bringing down the phone. Palm and Windows CE don't share these underpinnings.

Yep. My Treo crashes 5-6x per day. It's just a crap OS. If the iPhone is running OSX then I don't care how terrible an individual app is. The may crash, but my phone will still ring and I will just trash that app.

I sincerely hope Apple opens this up to 3rd party apps. There are so many great Mac developers out there who could easily make smaller mobile versions of their apps. Omni, Bare Bones, Delicious, Mekentoj come to mind as just a few who really embrace OSX technologies and would probably have apps to go within a month of having the dev tools.

Widgets are another story. They are easy to make and so incredibly useful as quick internet lookup interfaces that they just scream for the iPhone. And there are thousands of them now, many that Apple would never create but that are useful for a couple dozen people. That is exactly the kind of application pool that a device could use to hook people in and keep them for years. And they're mostly all free!

[Dark Helmet]

We need to try this to see how well it works:

TOKYOMANGO: Nanotech Supercoat Gadget Spray

[::maroma::]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

We need to try this to see how well it works:

TOKYOMANGO: Nanotech Supercoat Gadget Spray

I would be so afraid to spray a liquid onto an iPhone, even if its perfectly harmless. It just seems wrong. But if it will stop scratches and such, I hope it works well.

[real]

Originally Posted by epluth 

I agree completely.

Yep I do not understand either. Why no widescreen iPod. maybe so they sell more iPhones, but that doesn't add up either.

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

We need to try this to see how well it works:

TOKYOMANGO: Nanotech Supercoat Gadget Spray

Old dirt is wiped clean, and newly introduced contaminants like static, dust, finger grease, and water bounce right off.

I hate it when people get their static all over my phone!

[kman42]

Originally Posted by real 

Yep I do not understand either. Why no widescreen iPod. maybe so they sell more iPhones, but that doesn't add up either.

How about this theory?

The new iPods will also use MultiTouch requiring those nice big touch sensitive displays and the embedded version of OSX. Perhaps the displays aren't yet available in quantity because they didn't want to tip their hand or the embedded version of OSX isn't quite ready.

They had to announce the iPhone or the FCC would have. The vapor iPhone won't cannibalize sales of the nano (too expensive) or the big iPod (not enough storage). A vapor widescreen MultiTouch iPod would definitely cannibalize sales of the current video iPod.

We'll see the new iPod in 2-3 months when components or the embedded OSX are ready.

kman

[::maroma::]

Originally Posted by kman42 

How about this theory?

The new iPods will also use MultiTouch requiring those nice big touch sensitive displays and the embedded version of OSX. Perhaps the displays aren't yet available in quantity because they didn't want to tip their hand or the embedded version of OSX isn't quite ready.

They had to announce the iPhone or the FCC would have. The vapor iPhone won't cannibalize sales of the nano (too expensive) or the big iPod (not enough storage). A vapor widescreen MultiTouch iPod would definitely cannibalize sales of the current video iPod.

We'll see the new iPod in 2-3 months when components or the embedded OSX are ready.

kman

Also, why dilute the introduction of the iPhone with a brand spankin new iPod widescreen? I mean the iPhone almost totally drown out the intro of Apple TV.

[mdc]

I'm walking to my car now using my blackberry and looking for a text message from my wife. I'm trying to remember a word in said text message so I can search for it and find the address I need to meet her at.

This got me thinking. I wonder if the mail app on the iphone will have smart folders.
I'm a smart folder junkie.

I wonder what sort of "editing" abilities you'll have on the iPhone. Will you be able to create folders in mail and stuff like that, or will it be more like the ipod in the sense that it'll mirror your mac at home. I'd there's a smartfolder on your home mac then there will be one on your iphone.

I hope we get to use it more like a computer than a "copy" of our computer.

Now where the hell did I park. It'd be cool if it could help with finding my car too

[icruise]

Originally Posted by ::maroma:: 

I am hearing wildly different estimates on what these data and voice plans are going to cost us. Does anyone have any solid insight on what these plans may cost.

I think you may have been confused by the Canadians quoting figures in Canadian dollars. I would be *shocked* if Cingular didn't have a plan starting at around $50 including unlimited Internet access. That seems reasonable, if still on the expensive side for many people. I'm basing this simply on the cost of their existing plans.

Originally Posted by TAZ 

The other thing I would like to verify is that it is in fact OSX running on the phone rather than some slimmed down version.

Well, of course it's a slimmed down version. It's running on a phone. But as others have pointed out, that doesn't mean it will be less stable.

Originally Posted by kman42 

How about this theory?

The new iPods will also use MultiTouch requiring those nice big touch sensitive displays and the embedded version of OSX. Perhaps the displays aren't yet available in quantity because they didn't want to tip their hand or the embedded version of OSX isn't quite ready.

I think this is pretty much on target. There are probably supply and cost issues with the screen, and by all accounts the new interface is not really finished. They're not going to pre-announce new iPods and kill the sales of the current models. They also wanted the iPhone to seem as impressive as possible (and it certainly blows the current iPods out of the water), and so are keeping the new interface exclusive to the iPhone for the moment. If this is the case, then we may not see iPods in this form factor until well after the iPhone becomes available.

Does anyone else think that the scroll wheel may be on the way out for all iPods? It's just a matter of time. I don't think that's a bad thing, either. The scroll wheel was the best solution given the hardware limitations at the time the original iPod came out, but with this new screen there's no reason to stick with it (and creating a "virtual" scroll wheel as many predicted would not work as well).

[Eug]

Yeah, sorry about the confusion about costs of plans. I was complaining about plans with Rogers in Canada. It's $100 CAD for a 200 MB data plan (ie. very limited), and that doesn't even include voice. Thus, it'd be about $100 US for a simple voice and 200 MB data plan.

That's about twice what it would cost on Cingular for a voice with unlimited data plan.

ie. We Canadians get shafted on GSM data service.

Originally Posted by real 

Yep I do not understand either. Why no widescreen iPod. maybe so they sell more iPhones, but that doesn't add up either.

A new iPod will come. I may get it while I'm waiting for the iPhone 2.0.

Originally Posted by goMac 

Even if the phone is running a slimed down version of OS X, the underpinnings would prevent one application from bringing down the phone. Palm and Windows CE don't share these underpinnings.

[::maroma::]

Originally Posted by icruise 

I think you may have been confused by the Canadians quoting figures in Canadian dollars. I would be *shocked* if Cingular didn't have a plan starting at around $50 including unlimited Internet access. That seems reasonable, if still on the expensive side for many people. I'm basing this simply on the cost of their existing plans.

Ahhh, I was indeed confused by that. That makes me feel better. I was seriously getting concerned about that. Thanks for clearing that up (you too Eug).

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

This is why Apple originally chose the name iPod - and not iMusic or similar, in the first place.

As I was saying earlier... that is not why they chose that name.

The real reason was because they rushed the iPod to market and when they were thinking of what to name it they remembered they had the rights etc. to a product they were going to release but cancelled. So they just moved the name over to the MP3 player... iPod.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Oh man, that took me a second to get but actually made me laugh.

[Spliff]

I don't get it. What's the big deal with the iPhone? It's closed, crippled, and not-so-revolutionary. The LA Times says that Japanese already have phones with advanced features like the iPhone and that the Japanese cellular network is much more sophisticated than the American ones.

And apparently, the design of the iPhone isn't that original; LG already did it.




So where's the revolution?

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by Spliff 

So where's the revolution?

The whole package.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Spliff 

And apparently, the design of the iPhone isn't that original; LG already did it.




So where's the revolution?

So having a tall screen and four icons at the bottom is enough to make them essentially the same in your book? Do you think Macs and PCs are the same because both have on-buttons and icons on the desktop?

Differences visible just in those pictures: The iPhone doubles as an iPod, has a bunch of useful apps including a usable Web browser, and doesn't require a stylus.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by Spliff 

So where's the revolution?

You might as well say, "what was so great about the iPod?" There were lots of MP3 players out before it existed. Many were smaller and many had more capacity. But none of them got the combination of size, usability, and computer connectivity that the iPod had.

Calling it a revolution may be a little bit of an exaggeration, but I see a lot of similar elements with the iPhone. It's not that the features themselves are brand new (in fact, aside from the visual voice mail, these features have existed on phones and PDAs for quite a while). But they haven't come together in this way before, and they haven't worked as well. Of course we don't know for sure how well the iPhone will work at the moment, but in my opinion Apple has a pretty good track record with this kind of thing, so I'm inclined to give the the benefit of the doubt until I can try it myself.

[kman42]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

No, where do you get this idea from ?

-t

I thought for the EMS, but I guess they just need location not necessarily GPS. Anyway, I still read that it had GPS, but that was early in the news cycle and seems to have been proven wrong at this point

[Ratm]

Originally Posted by Hash 

ended up buying SE w700i for 300$ with 512 mb memory stick pro duo.

You payed for your w700i? I recived my for free. I like the phone, love the 2mp cam and the T-Mobile service is great but if I can't use the iPhone with my network I'm going to jump ship over to C. The iPhone is just tooo sweet!

[icruise]

It's official. The iPhone is a closed platform. However, Steve Jobs did say this to the New York Times:

These are devices that need to work, and you can't do that if you load any software on them," he said. "That doesn't mean there's not going to be software to buy that you can load on them coming from us. It doesn't mean we have to write it all, but it means it has to be more of a controlled environment.

I'm not sure where he gets the idea that you can't have a reliable device with software loaded on it (are Macs unreliable for this reason? ) but at least he is saying that they will be providing other software for it, and that it won't all necessarily be written by Apple.

[Kerrigan]

That sounds fine to me. Imagine downloading Yahoo messenger for it, and then having other things secretly installed, like little toolbars and "refer a friend" icons, and having your search and home pages changed to Yahoo. People seem to put up with this on Windows PCs but you don't want that on a phone.

[kman42]

I firmly believe it will open in time. It's just too functional of a device not to allow 3rd party developers a crack. Perhaps they just want the initial release to go over well with something they can completely control. The competition is just too steep for them to keep it closed for long. We are moving toward computers in our pockets and that requires that 3rd parties be able to write software for niche uses. Apple will have to comply.

kman

[Dark Helmet]

It makes sense. One reporter has already said the software will get faster by the final and that some images were even still placeholders.

Even if apple opens the system up now I don't think they can as they are still writing it and any launch 3rd party apps could easily crash the whole system.

People do NOT take it casually if their phone doesn't work even for a minute. Think about when computers start to go weird or VCR's. Please wait it out as long as they can before looking into getting it fixed. If you pick up your phone and it isn't working the fist thing you do is call support to get it fixed right away.

[Mithras]

...but if it's really OS X, it has protected memory, so userland apps -- and certainly widgets -- wouldn't be able to crash the system anyway.

[Kerrigan]

I think people should give Apple the benefit of the doubt, since vertical integration is Jobs' expertise. Yes, the Mac platform nearly failed and contracted b/c of this, but the iPod is a runaway success, and I think the iPhone will be also. Handheld devices don't need the same sort of flexibility that PCs have.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

I think people should give Apple the benefit of the doubt, since vertical integration is Jobs' expertise. Yes, the Mac platform nearly failed and contracted b/c of this, but the iPod is a runaway success, and I think the iPhone will be also. Handheld devices don't need the same sort of flexibility that PCs have.

Benefit of the doubt? Apple has a long history of doing things that annoy customers for no good reason (besides profit). The one that sticks out in my mind the most is the previous refusal to allow any Mac burn DVDs in iDVD on an external burner, even if that burner was fully supported in OS X.

Apple wants to control the phone completely, like they do the iPod.

Originally Posted by Steve Jobs, CEO of Apple Inc

These are devices that need to work, and you can't do that if you load any software on them," he said. "That doesn't mean there's not going to be software to buy that you can load on them coming from us. It doesn't mean we have to write it all, but it means it has to be more of a controlled environment.

That of course doesn't make much sense at all, but that's Jobs for ya.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Benefit of the doubt? Apple has a long history of doing things that annoy customers for no good reason (besides profit). The one that sticks out in my mind the most is the previous refusal to allow any Mac burn DVDs in iDVD on an external burner, even if that burner was fully supported in OS X.

The one that always annoyed me was crippling the iBook's ability for monitor spanning, even though the video card was fully capable of doing so.

[f1000]

Originally Posted by icruise 

I'm not sure where he gets the idea that you can't have a reliable device with software loaded on it (are Macs unreliable for this reason? ) but at least he is saying that they will be providing other software for it, and that it won't all necessarily be written by Apple.

Cingular makes money by selling downloadable software. I'm sure this is Apple's way of gaining another revenue stream: sell the phone once, but sell widgets again and again.

[icruise]

Hmm, I would be pretty surprised if Cingular would be the one selling the software.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

That sounds fine to me. Imagine downloading Yahoo messenger for it, and then having other things secretly installed, like little toolbars and "refer a friend" icons, and having your search and home pages changed to Yahoo. People seem to put up with this on Windows PCs but you don't want that on a phone.

Other phones have web browsers. Other phones have stuff like AOL Instant Messenger. This doesn't happen on other phones.

The absurd part about the iPhone is every other smartphone on the market allows 3rd party software. None of them have any of the issues Apple is talking about the iPhone having with 3rd party applications. Are we to believe that with all of Apple's engineering prowess, somehow Microsoft and Palm can do 3rd party applications and Apple can't?

Heck, most any cell phone on the market can use 3rd party applications.

[::maroma::]

All this talk about the pros and cons of an open environment made me think of this story, from the man ManNN page:

Electronista | Microsoft: keep "craplets" off Windows PCs

I know PC's are different than handheld devices, but its kinda funny.

[TETENAL]

iPhone Unboxed

[Eriamjh]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

iPhone Unboxed

No, that's not fake!
9:41 lasts a long time.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

iPhone Unboxed

V

[kman42]

That's actually fairly creative. Kudos.

[TETENAL]

Amazon.de has it on pre-order. Not cheap.

[Visnaut]

It's sad to find out it's a closed platform. I can see the reasoning, but I also think that by Apple releasing just the appropriate APIs, there wouldn't be a danger of someone seriously degrading the user experience on the device.

If widgets on the iPhone are structurally similar to the ones for Dashboard though, it won't be long until someone figures out how to write them and put them on the phone somehow.

[Kerrigan]

I wonder whatever happened to those unannounced products that Amazon put up for sale, titled "MWSF announcement #1, #2" etc. And I wonder if that pissed off Jobs enough to push back their release.

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by Gossamer 

I'm not sure if someone's brought this up yet, but if the iPhone is not yet FCC certified or whatever, how exactly was Steve using one? Is that a violation of the FCC's rules, or were they faking it?

No one knows? I'm warning you, I'll start a thread about this if I don't get an answer!