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Repeal of Obamacare (Page 3)
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subego
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Jan 16, 2017, 04:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
That's part of the position but it's not all of it.


Doesn't history show they had little-to-no negotiating position?
I'm not sure I understand.
( Last edited by subego; Jan 16, 2017 at 09:54 PM. )
     
Laminar
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Jan 16, 2017, 04:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Where is the part about you have to vote for it to see what is in it? Republicans had no say in Obamacare.
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
I know that's what you want to tell yourself but the facts show otherwise.

Fact-checking the GOP on healthcare reform - Salon.com
Ouch! Hahaha.

Let's also ignore the fact that the entire system was modeled after RomneyCare.
     
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Jan 16, 2017, 04:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
If what's being given as an example of Obama's horse trading is replacing two centrist judges with lefty ones, and one of the most conservative justices in modern history with a centrist, I think an argument can be made nothing they actually want has been offered.
You expect the Republicans not stack the SC with 5 rightists given the opportunity to do so?
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Jan 16, 2017, 04:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Ouch! Hahaha.

Let's also ignore the fact that the entire system was modeled after RomneyCare.
Precisely.

OAW
     
subego
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Jan 16, 2017, 04:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
You expect the Republicans not stack the SC with 5 rightists given the opportunity to do so?
Would it be whackadoodle world if by number three the Democrats started to gavel-block?
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jan 17, 2017, 12:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Would it be whackadoodle world if by number three the Democrats started to gavel-block?
You could hardly blame them now if they did. But did they do it last time?
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subego
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Jan 17, 2017, 07:07 AM
 
Reagan was president last time it happened. He would have picked jelly beans out of his teeth with the bones of the Democratic Party.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jan 17, 2017, 11:52 AM
 
Tom Price doesn't want to flaunt his own Obamacare bill at confirmation hearing - CNNPolitics.com
In the lead-up to his confirmation hearings, Price has been kept out of the Trump transition team's efforts to craft an Obamacare replacement plan. According to a senior transition official, the incoming administration wants Price to be inoculated from questions about what Trump's alternative to the Affordable Care Act looks like when he faces probing senators this week.
It's laughable - I'd complain, but this guys policies are probably the worst of them. Still, makes you wonder why you'd pick the guy if you don't want his input. Appearances, I suppose.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jan 20, 2017, 10:26 AM
 
Someone noted, technically Obamacare has a better approval rating than Trump.
     
andi*pandi
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Jan 20, 2017, 10:48 AM
 
The polls are rigged! Mainstream media fixed the polls! Lame!
     
The Final Dakar
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Jan 20, 2017, 10:57 AM
 
I think it's a bit apples vs oranges but there's a kernel of truth there, one that would give a rational person pause.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jan 20, 2017, 11:00 AM
 
This is less ambiguous:


Faced with the real possibility of repeal, some seem to have reconsidered of the law is really all that bad.
     
andi*pandi
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Jan 20, 2017, 11:58 AM
 
that swap is plainly clear, and on fox news too. (I forgot my sarcasm tag last post)
     
The Final Dakar
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Jan 20, 2017, 12:05 PM
 
The sarcasm was clear, I was using your post to clarify my position. Apologies
     
subego
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Jan 21, 2017, 09:33 AM
 
Am I the only one bothered by the past being to the right of the present?
     
The Final Dakar
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Jan 23, 2017, 12:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Am I the only one bothered by the past being to the right of the present?
Chalk it up to typical Fox News info graphic shenanigans
     
Chongo
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Jan 23, 2017, 04:13 PM
 
If you like Obamacare you can keep Obamacare
GOP senators present Obamacare alternative - CNNPolitics.com
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The Final Dakar
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Jan 23, 2017, 04:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
If you like Obamacare you can keep Obamacare
GOP senators present Obamacare alternative - CNNPolitics.com
*if your state lets you
     
OAW
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Jan 24, 2017, 10:22 AM
 
Imagine that.

Aetna claimed this summer that it was pulling out of all but four of the 15 states where it was providing Obamacare individual insurance because of a business decision — it was simply losing too much money on the Obamacare exchanges.

Now a federal judge has ruled that that was a rank falsehood. In fact, says Judge John D. Bates, Aetna made its decision at least partially in response to a federal antitrust lawsuit blocking its proposed $37-billion merger with Humana. Aetna threatened federal officials with the pullout before the lawsuit was filed, and followed through on its threat once it was filed. Bates made the observations in the course of a ruling he issued Monday blocking the merger.

Aetna executives had moved heaven and earth to conceal their decision-making process from the court, in part by discussing the matter on the phone rather than in emails, and by shielding what did get put in writing with the cloak of attorney-client privilege, a practice Bates found came close to “malfeasance.”


The judge’s conclusions about Aetna’s real reasons for pulling out of Obamacare — as opposed to the rationalization the company made in public — are crucial for the debate over the fate of the Affordable Care Act. That’s because the company’s withdrawal has been exploited by Republicans to justify repealing the act. Just last week, House Speaker Paul Ryan (R-Wisc.) cited Aetna’s action on the “Charlie Rose” show, saying that it proved how shaky the exchanges were.

Bates found that this rationalization was largely untrue. In fact, he noted, Aetna pulled out of some states and counties that were actually profitable to make a point in its lawsuit defense — and then misled the public about its motivations. Bates’ analysis relies in part on a “smoking gun” letter to the Justice Department in which Chief Executive Mark Bertolini explicitly ties Aetna’s participation in Obamacare to the DOJ’s actions on the merger, which we reported in August. But it goes much further.

Among the locations where Aetna withdrew were 17 counties in three states where the Department of Justice asserted that the merger would produce unlawfully low levels of competition on the individual exchanges. By pulling out, Aetna could say that it wasn’t competing in those counties’ exchanges anyway, rendering the government’s point moot: “The evidence provides persuasive support for the conclusion that Aetna withdrew from the on-exchange markets in the 17 complaint counties to improve its litigation position,” Bates wrote. “The Court does not credit the minimal efforts of Aetna executives to claim otherwise.”

Indeed, he wrote, Aetna’s decision to pull out of the exchange business in Florida was “so far outside of normal business practice” that it perplexed the company’s top executive in Florida, who was not in the decision loop.

“I just can’t make sense out of the Florida dec[ision],” the executive, Christopher Ciano, wrote to Jonathan Mayhew, the head of Aetna’s national exchange business. “Based on the latest run rate data . . . we are making money from the on-exchange business. Was Florida’s performance ever debated?” Mayhew told him to discuss the matter by phone, not email, “to avoid leaving a paper trail,” Bates found. As it happens, Bates found reason to believe that Aetna soon will be selling exchange plans in Florida again.
U.S. judge finds that Aetna deceived the public about its reasons for quitting Obamacare - LA Times

OAW
     
OreoCookie
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Jan 24, 2017, 10:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
If you like Obamacare you can keep Obamacare
GOP senators present Obamacare alternative - CNNPolitics.com
That's only one of several GOP proposals to replace Obamacare with, and the plans vary wildly.
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Chongo
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Jan 24, 2017, 10:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
That's only one of several GOP proposals to replace Obamacare with, and the plans vary wildly.
Several plans? I thought there were no Republican ObamaCare replacement plans.
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The Final Dakar
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Jan 24, 2017, 11:22 AM
 
What's that? A company pulling out of profitable markets? But what about the money?

Seems like a good example why you can't trust companies to do the right thing even if there's money to be made.
     
andi*pandi
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Jan 24, 2017, 11:25 AM
 
Chongo said:
Several plans? I thought there were no Republican ObamaCare replacement plans.
Apparently, they are finally getting off their ass due to pressure from concerned citizens. Kudos to Susan Collins for getting the ball rolling.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jan 24, 2017, 11:27 AM
 
They're getting of their ass because they're in power. Empty promises don't work now that they have to pass something.

As for Collins, I believe she comes from a bluer state or/and is moderate herself. I wanna see what those red staters propose other than freedom.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jan 27, 2017, 09:41 AM
 
Trump admin canceling already paid for ACA ads. Much easier to repeal the program if less people are on it to complain about it.
     
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Jan 27, 2017, 10:26 AM
 
Rand Paul's proposal is the joke you'd think it is. Nothing changes except HSAs and some tax deductions. I.e. Great for the rich and the healthy, i.e., the status quo.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jan 27, 2017, 02:07 PM
 
     
OreoCookie
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Jan 28, 2017, 12:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Several plans? I thought there were no Republican ObamaCare replacement plans.
There are several mutually incompatible plans proposed by members from either chamber of Congress or conservative and libertarian think tanks. And none of them fix what Obamacare has been criticized for by the voters (including many Trump voters), but make things worse (less coverage, reduced number of insured people, etc.). Republican lawmakers have had a powwow in Philadelphia, and they are coming to grips with the reality of things: replacing Obamacare will be hard and is fraught with danger. So no, they don't have a plan yet. But once there is, for better or worse, we know it'll be called Trumpcare.
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The Final Dakar
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Jan 29, 2017, 01:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
There are several mutually incompatible plans proposed by members from either chamber of Congress or conservative and libertarian think tanks. And none of them fix what Obamacare has been criticized for by the voters (including many Trump voters), but make things worse (less coverage, reduced number of insured people, etc.). Republican lawmakers have had a powwow in Philadelphia, and they are coming to grips with the reality of things: replacing Obamacare will be hard and is fraught with danger. So no, they don't have a plan yet. But once there is, for better or worse, we know it'll be called Trumpcare.
There's no official GOP alternative. What there is is a bunch of proposals no one can agree on. That's criticism of the GOP.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Feb 6, 2017, 08:02 AM
 
It looks like this won't be ready until 2018? Great job GOP, and great use of your time for all the years Obama was in office and you couldn't shut up about how terrible it is. Constructive!
     
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Feb 6, 2017, 04:14 PM
 
You don't think the current infrastructure in place is strong enough to hold up until they can get a replacement ready? It's my understanding that a lot of money and research is necessary, more than could be accounted for in "spare time" (which is probably why Obamacare was crap in the first place).
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besson3c  (op)
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Feb 6, 2017, 04:26 PM
 
Spare time? WTF do you mean by that? Congress voted 363728373 times to try to repeal Obamacare. What was that for if there was no replacement ready, and how was this not a waste of time?
( Last edited by besson3c; Feb 6, 2017 at 07:07 PM. )
     
Laminar
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Feb 6, 2017, 04:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
You don't think the current infrastructure in place is strong enough to hold up until they can get a replacement ready?
The concern I've heard expressed is that they'll repeal the tax immediately but benefits slowly, potentially causing a budget issue.

It's my understanding that a lot of money and research is necessary, more than could be accounted for in "spare time" (which is probably why Obamacare was crap in the first place).
Spare time? Isn't policy and governance the full time job of congress? Isn't this one of the largest, most talked about issues of Obama's presidency? Isn't this the single issue that many republicans staked their campaigns on?

And no one had enough "spare time" to come up with an alternative?
     
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Feb 6, 2017, 06:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
The concern I've heard expressed is that they'll repeal the tax immediately but benefits slowly, potentially causing a budget issue.
Don't forget that this means people who under the law are entitled to certain treatments will not get them, because the government has run out of money. Plus, it'll be used as “evidence” that the ACA isn't working. According to the leaked recordings from the GOP's strategy meeting in Philadelphia, the Republicans are plainly aware of their dilemma. To me that's a hopeful sign.
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Feb 6, 2017, 09:18 PM
 
We thought Trump was your Brexit but maybe its the ACA repeal. The republicans have had years to make plans for when they are in charge but never actually bothered, just like the Brexiters who were more concerned with getting their way than about what to do if they did. Its like when the teacher asks the mouthy troublemaker if they want to teach the class and they are defiant enough to say yes but not smart enough to follow up with anything else at all.
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Feb 6, 2017, 11:08 PM
 
@Waragainstsleep
That's a good point, it's not a coincidence that Farage decided to retire at the hour of his life's greatest success.
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Feb 7, 2017, 12:08 AM
 
Farage probably has an accountant and/or investment banker plus a gaggle of gratefully waiting scumbags just counting down the seconds until they can totally circumvent EU human rights laws and open sweatshops all over the third world. That has been the true purpose of Brexit all along. All the other reasons have been shot to ribbons at this point.
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Feb 7, 2017, 06:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Spare time? WTF do you mean by that? Congress voted 363728373 times to try to repeal Obamacare. What was that for if there was no replacement ready, and how was this not a waste of time?
Who was going to pay the budget for this research and 1000s of man hours needed to develop a comprehensive replacement? Or do you expect lawmakers to slap something together, like they did the first time ("we need to pass it to see what's in it"), and not have it explode in their faces (again, like it did last time)?

Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
The concern I've heard expressed is that they'll repeal the tax immediately but benefits slowly, potentially causing a budget issue.
It's a concern but I'm not convinced that it's valid. My perception is that the two are inextricably linked, the tax and Obamacare.

Spare time? Isn't policy and governance the full time job of congress? Isn't this one of the largest, most talked about issues of Obama's presidency? Isn't this the single issue that many republicans staked their campaigns on?

And no one had enough "spare time" to come up with an alternative?
I'm sure they're not working on the ACA replacement 24/7, why would they when they have 1,000 other things going on at the same time? Pretty sure immigration was the most hotly contested issue, and there are lots of other things going on behind the scenes, like the budget, a mountain of expenditures, int'l relations, political unrest, etc.. If we want it done right it'll take more work, that's why the ACA was crap, too little went into its finer points. "Give us something, we don't care the issues" is no way to look at this.
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besson3c  (op)
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Feb 7, 2017, 07:46 AM
 
I say the ACA was imperfect because it was largely Romneycare, and a giant compromise to resemble something the Republicans might have tried under their watch.
     
subego
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Feb 7, 2017, 08:10 AM
 
I think it was what Obama's Chief of Staff told him at the outset, which was he needed to build political capital first.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Feb 7, 2017, 08:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I'm sure they're not working on the ACA replacement 24/7, why would they when they have 1,000 other things going on at the same time? Pretty sure immigration was the most hotly contested issue, and there are lots of other things going on behind the scenes, like the budget, a mountain of expenditures, int'l relations, political unrest, etc.. If we want it done right it'll take more work, that's why the ACA was crap, too little went into its finer points. "Give us something, we don't care the issues" is no way to look at this.
Why would they? Well, I thought they cared about spending, deficits, fiscal order, all of that good stuff? Or is that passé now?
     
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Feb 7, 2017, 11:47 AM
 
Sounds like "the dog ate my homework" to me. Any candidate campaigning on the premise of repealing ACA should have had a replacement plan to promote. That Donald didn't, and people didn't care, says a lot either about the intelligence of his supporters or the amount they hate ACA/Obama etc.
     
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Feb 7, 2017, 12:04 PM
 
I think the simple explanation is they didn't expect to be in a position where they would actually have to fulfill this promise. They were probably looking forward to years of symbolic votes.
     
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Feb 7, 2017, 12:59 PM
 
There are replacements. Even Vox posted an article saying so. Sec Designate Price has his own as well
| National Review
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The Final Dakar
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Feb 7, 2017, 01:47 PM
 
There's no consensus. That's the point. The GOP had six years to agree on something.
     
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Feb 7, 2017, 07:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
There are replacements. Even Vox posted an article saying so. Sec Designate Price has his own as well
| National Review
No, there are several mutually incompatible competing proposals, and the GOP is aware that many key aspects of them will not be popular with voters. And all of that doesn't even take Donald Trump's affinity towards single-payer health care into account.
Originally Posted by Donald Trump, The America We Deserve
The Canadian plan also helps Canadians live longer and healthier than America. … We need, as a nation, to reexamine the single-payer plan, as many individual states are doing[.]
(Taken from here.)
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The Final Dakar
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Feb 8, 2017, 12:12 PM
 
A reporter should bring it up. I'm pretty sure it's DOA.
     
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Feb 8, 2017, 01:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Why would they? Well, I thought they cared about spending, deficits, fiscal order, all of that good stuff? Or is that passé now?
You think they don't have other things to do too? They can just hammer this type of thing out on a coffee break with free interns?
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Laminar
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Feb 8, 2017, 02:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
You think they don't have other things to do too? They can just hammer this type of thing out on a coffee break with free interns?
You can go back and forth with that kind of argument forever, but what it boils down to is that in the six years that so many of the GOP spent so much time campaigning against a single issue, they somehow forgot to come up with an actual solution.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Or do you expect lawmakers to slap something together, like they did the first time ("we need to pass it to see what's in it"), and not have it explode in their faces (again, like it did last time)?
It seems odd to see you complain about hasty, poorly thought-out legislation.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Feb 8, 2017, 04:32 PM
 
Exactly. And in six years they also voted to repeal Obamacare 209348029348 times. What were they going to do if this was passed? Who would have taken responsibility? What was the plan going to be?

Since they didn't have a plan, maybe they should have spent the time trying to get it repealed for the 209348209348th time with an actual plan?
     
 
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