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Repeal of Obamacare (Page 8)
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subego
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Apr 5, 2017, 02:12 PM
 
Seriously?
     
The Final Dakar
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Apr 11, 2017, 07:17 PM
 
Trump: I want to pass health care before doing tax reform - POLITICO

I don't see how this doesn't become a fiasco a third time. From my understanding, making changes via reconciliation expire as soon as the new budget passes (Which needs to be done ASAP).
     
The Final Dakar
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Apr 20, 2017, 10:17 AM
 
Sounds like the GOP found a middle ground where they pretend they're not ****ing people over by making them waivers states can apply for. Not sure how constituents will read that one.
     
The Final Dakar
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Apr 21, 2017, 01:18 AM
 
I thought this was amusing:
"Age group most opposed to single-payer is the one that already has it (those age 65+)."
     
The Final Dakar
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Apr 26, 2017, 09:48 AM
 
Someone who knows the timeline here will have to verify for me but as I understand it, first congress was exempt from the ACA by the Dems, then were added after protest, and now republicans want to exempt themselves from the AHCA state waivers. If that isn't an endorsement of the ACA I don't know what is.
     
The Final Dakar
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Apr 26, 2017, 01:02 PM
 
Freedom caucus now supports the AHCA. Time to see if moderate GOP buckle.
     
The Final Dakar
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Apr 27, 2017, 10:42 PM
 
On hold, again. No vote for Trump in the first 100.
     
The Final Dakar
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May 1, 2017, 11:17 PM
 
I was ignoring this but it sounds like they want to bring it to a vote this week, but are fighting with reps that won't commit either way.
     
The Final Dakar
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May 3, 2017, 04:39 PM
 
Sounds like this thing is live, more cloak and dagger than the ACA ever was, and arguably still only really achieves one big thing: cutting taxes for the rich.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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May 4, 2017, 09:27 AM
 
That's quite an assertion.
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The Final Dakar
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May 4, 2017, 09:45 AM
 
I don't get the political math here. I'm suspecting in the end it's 'Trump wants this.'

As far as I can tell the benefits of this bill are pleasing a small but outspoken segment of constituents and being able to say you delivered a promise.
The cons are almost every related organization is against it, no one can demonstrate its benefit (and they're voting before it gets scored), you piss of most of the rest of your constituents, don't not make the system appreciably better, and you violate lots of the standards you claim to hold about passing legislation. Also there's the chance this dies in the Senate.

I'm utterly confused. Basically it seems like they're doing it just to say they did.
     
The Final Dakar
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May 4, 2017, 09:46 AM
 
My favorite quote from yesterday:

@daveweigel: Rep. Scott Perry on how Rs can sell the bill back home: "It's important that we're clear with them that this is not a full repeal."
     
andi*pandi
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May 4, 2017, 10:55 AM
 
So, being a woman is now a pre-existing condition. Great.

(sure, I'm exaggerating... or am I?)
     
The Final Dakar
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May 4, 2017, 11:28 AM
 
Sexual assault victim as a preexisting condition is pretty awesome.
     
andi*pandi
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May 4, 2017, 11:38 AM
 
also having had a baby, csection, postpartum depression...
     
The Final Dakar
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May 4, 2017, 01:31 PM
 
This thing still completely rolls back Medicaid coverage. What happened in the past few weeks that gun shy republicans are now ok with it?
     
The Final Dakar
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May 4, 2017, 02:08 PM
 
It looks like Trump and the GOP are gonna celebrate this passing like it's the damn Super Bowl
     
The Final Dakar
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May 4, 2017, 02:22 PM
 
Officially passed.

     
andi*pandi
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May 5, 2017, 09:40 AM
 
So, the mile long list of things that are considered pre-existing... does not include erectile dysfunction.

There ya go.
     
The Final Dakar
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May 5, 2017, 04:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Sexual assault victim as a preexisting condition is pretty awesome.
Reading this is BS at worst, exaggeration at best.
     
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May 5, 2017, 07:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
So, the mile long list of things that are considered pre-existing... does not include erectile dysfunction.

There ya go.
Can't have the rich old white perves party of family values paying for their own boner pills now can we?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Chongo
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May 6, 2017, 07:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
So, the mile long list of things that are considered pre-existing... does not include erectile dysfunction.

There ya go.
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Reading this is BS at worst, exaggeration at best.
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Can't have the rich old white perves party of family values paying for their own boner pills now can we?
Have any of you actually read the bill, or are going you on what the media or others have told you is in the bill? I haven't. Until I do it's all hearsay.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-...bill/1628/text
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The Final Dakar
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May 6, 2017, 11:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Have any of you actually read the bill, or are going you on what the media or others have told you is in the bill? I haven't. Until I do it's all hearsay.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-...bill/1628/text
"Have you read this 100 page bill of legalese? I won't believe anything you say unless you have." This has to be one of the dumbest arguments I've seen you make in your time here.

Oh, and by the way, there wouldn't be so much hearsay floating around if they didn't pass a bill without releasing it to the public for so little time.
     
andi*pandi
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May 6, 2017, 12:25 PM
 
By their own admission, most of the Republicans voting FOR it haven't read themselves.
     
The Final Dakar
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May 6, 2017, 01:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
By their own admission, most of the Republicans voting FOR it haven't read themselves.
Yet somehow they were swayed to vote for it.

They've also been lying their asses off about it not screwing people with preexisting conditions.
     
Atheist
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May 6, 2017, 01:37 PM
 
Honest question here. Has anyone seen any tangible documentation from the Republican party that describes in detail what exactly is wrong with the ACA and how the AHCA is fixing it? All I've gleaned from TV/Internet is that ACA is bad/broken and a group of 50+ year old out-of-touch white guys have fixed it. My guess is that by "fixing" it, they reduced the tax burden on a strategic group of people. It doesn't seem like it has anything to do with actual health care.
     
The Final Dakar
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May 6, 2017, 01:43 PM
 
Insurers are taking losses covering all the people who didn't have coverage before. While I think the companies are exaggerating, it seems pretty undeniable.
     
Waragainstsleep
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May 6, 2017, 03:07 PM
 
Didn't the GOP cause most of the problems with the ACA though? They sued several times to prevent certain parts of it being implemented like making payments to the insurance companies to cover certain losses and some states refused free federal medicaid funding because of something the GOP did or blocked or sued for. I don't pretend to understand all the details.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
The Final Dakar
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May 9, 2017, 10:42 AM
 
It's amazing how by it merely being passed in the house, Trump voter support for the bill increased by 50%. (Opposition dropped by 66%)



Kill me.
     
Laminar
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May 10, 2017, 11:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Have any of you actually read the bill, or are going you on what the media or others have told you is in the bill? I haven't. Until I do it's all hearsay.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-...bill/1628/text
Let me know when you finish reading this bad boy, and I acknowledge that anything you've said about Obamacare before that point is hearsay.
     
The Final Dakar
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May 10, 2017, 11:25 AM
 
CBO score to be released in two weeks? Either they are being thorough or last time they broke their necks to get one out before a possible vote
     
Laminar
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May 10, 2017, 12:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Atheist View Post
Honest question here. Has anyone seen any tangible documentation from the Republican party that describes in detail what exactly is wrong with the ACA and how the AHCA is fixing it?
A big sticking point was the "If you like your health care plan you can keep it." that was repeated over and over and turned out not be true, as many insurance companies chose to cancel plans instead of modify them to meet Obamacare's strict requirements for coverage.

People also complain that premiums are too high for many plans.

Obama did an ~hour long interview with Vox late last year about the state of Obamacare, he acknowledged that premiums were too high and expressed a desire to increase subsidies, but noted that Republicans would not sign off on spending more money.

Which is the third major issue with the ACA, that it included a tax on those earning $200,000 or more.
     
BadKosh
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May 10, 2017, 12:35 PM
 
Short memories? Nobody seems to remember Pelosi and "You have to pass it to see whats in it". Sure, No hypocrisy here.
     
Laminar
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May 10, 2017, 04:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Short memories? Nobody seems to remember Pelosi and "You have to pass it to see whats in it". Sure, No hypocrisy here.
BadKosh: Per Chongo's rules, you have to read the entirety of the text of the ACA before you're allowed to criticize it. Please let us know when you've finished reading it all.
     
Snow-i
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May 10, 2017, 05:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
BadKosh: Per Chongo's rules, you have to read the entirety of the text of the ACA before you're allowed to criticize it. Please let us know when you've finished reading it all.
Well, we need to pass it first in order to determine what's actually in it, so per Chongo's rules we need to vote on it before any reading can be started. Votes on the floor!

Nay.

I also don't see how making someone read through 33,000 pages of legalese could possibly support your argument, as if somehow that's a good thing. I think being able to read the law is exactly the type of thing we should be going for.

To that point, the republican measure is 132 pages.

The ACA is 217 times longer than HR1628.

For every page of reading you would have to do for HR1628, you would need to read 217 pages of the ACA to keep pace.

You could read the Republican bill 217 times before completing the ACA.

If it took you a week to read HR1628, it would take you two years to read the ACA at the same pace.

If you stacked up the ACA on standard letter paper, it would be over 7 ft tall. You could literally drop the ACA on someone and kill them.
     
Laminar
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May 10, 2017, 05:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
I also don't see how making someone read through 33,000 pages of legalese could possibly support your argument,
What argument do you think I'm making? Or are you continuing to group me in the collective "you" of the left?
     
The Final Dakar
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May 10, 2017, 06:27 PM
 
Are we really doing the smaller is better argument?
     
andi*pandi
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May 10, 2017, 07:05 PM
 
I can write a one sentence health care plan. It is the absolute best, the best health care plan ever conceived.

"An apple a day keeps the doctor away."



(not saying that things shouldn't be as concise and easy to read as possible, but Trump is always exclaiming in surprise, "wow, this was more complicated than I thought" because he doesn't understand all the COMPLEXITY involved. )
     
OAW
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May 11, 2017, 03:33 PM
 
Something to consider the next time a GOP politician starts a sentence with "The American people want ..." with respect to healthcare insurance legislation ...

Poll: Just 21 percent approve of House’s Obamacare repeal bill | Politico.com

OAW
     
The Final Dakar
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May 11, 2017, 04:08 PM
 
What's the approval among GOP or Trump voters?

I will say, the poll I posted earlier looks kinder than the polls I've seen coming out more recently.
     
Snow-i
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May 11, 2017, 04:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
What argument do you think I'm making? Or are you continuing to group me in the collective "you" of the left?
The argument that anyone should or even could read the ACA in it's entirety in order to understand it enough to criticize it. Your argument being that you must understand it's entirety to criticize it. Looking back, I think you were trying to point out just that and I let it sail right over my head.
     
Laminar
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May 11, 2017, 05:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
The argument that anyone should or even could read the ACA in it's entirety in order to understand it enough to criticize it. Your argument being that you must understand it's entirety to criticize it. Looking back, I think you were trying to point out just that and I let it sail right over my head.
No, I was just pointing out Chongo's stupidity and hypocrisy. Saying "You can't criticize a bill until you've personally read it all" while criticizing a whole lot of legislation just because there's a (D) after the politician's name.
     
Snow-i
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May 11, 2017, 06:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
No, I was just pointing out Chongo's stupidity and hypocrisy. Saying "You can't criticize a bill until you've personally read it all" while criticizing a whole lot of legislation just because there's a (D) after the politician's name.
Fair enough.

33,000 pages is alot. It's almost like they got George RR Martin to write the damn thing and didn't give him a year to edit it down.
     
The Final Dakar
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May 11, 2017, 07:49 PM
 
Software bloat.
     
Waragainstsleep
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May 12, 2017, 09:09 AM
 
So what will phase 2 of Trumpcare look like?

I'm guessing it will include "Health" camps for the uninsurable with their pre-existing conditions.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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May 13, 2017, 02:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
So what will phase 2 of Trumpcare look like?

I'm guessing it will include "Health" camps for the uninsurable with their pre-existing conditions.
I hope they don't treat it the same way most universities handle free speech.
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besson3c  (op)
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May 13, 2017, 01:30 PM
 
I want to know if any of you guys that support an insurance-based system have thought that maybe this system can't be fixed, and if not if there is a certain point or benchmark where you'll start to think this?

Our Canadian system isn't perfect, but I don't know of any Canadians that feel that it is just utterly and fundamental broken. However, I'm not particularly interested in Americans telling Canadians what is wrong with their health care and vice versa because we've gone down that road before, but I'm just looking to calibrate myself on what you are feeling about US healthcare, because it seems like there is such incredible and relentless persistence to repair the insurance based system. I'm just wondering at what point people will start to be open to something entirely different (whether single payer or something else).
     
subego
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May 13, 2017, 02:17 PM
 
I bailed from the health care debate ages ago, but the arguments which made the most sense to me at the time were.

1) Doctors in the US make generally appear to make more money than doctors from other countries, which attracts better talent.

2) Our research is better funded, and because of it, we can take bigger risks with regards to advancing the field.


This is essentially an extension of the "which country created Apple, Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Facebook, and Disney" argument.
     
reader50
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May 13, 2017, 02:40 PM
 
Insurance-based or single-payer both work. Without one or the other, mostly the wealthy have health coverage. For non-wealthy (the majority) having neither creates a faith-based healthcare system: Price healthcare out of reach, and fewer people get sick. This doesn't seem to work - it's been tried extensively in 3rd world countries. Still being tested vigorously today.

If Trumpcare goes through, we don't have single-payer, and insurance-based will lose its' pool size. ie - the underlying requirements of a working insurance system get removed. So we end up with unaffordable insurance-based, which is equivalent to no coverage. Being poor is unhealthy, and being middle-class is temporary until one emergency takes everything away. In the long run, everyone needs healthcare at some point, or we die.
     
Paco500
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May 13, 2017, 02:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I bailed from the health care debate ages ago, but the arguments which made the most sense to me at the time were.

1) Doctors in the US make generally appear to make more money than doctors from other countries, which attracts better talent.

2) Our research is better funded, and because of it, we can take bigger risks with regards to advancing the field.


This is essentially an extension of the "which country created Apple, Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Facebook, and Disney" argument.
I have no reason to believe what you say is not true, but if so, why are outcomes comparatively poor against other first world countries?

Perhaps health care is not analogous to consumer tech and entertainment?
     
 
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