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I need your advice on a job situation....
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JE$US
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Apr 10, 2002, 11:39 PM
 
Alright, I've been working at this dental lab for like 3 years or so, off and on. When I go to school, I obviously DONt work there. Well, at the moment I'm taking this condensed classes that are 4 hours a day, for a month, and they're 3 credits each. My next one starts april 15th, and it goes for a month. Now, today my boss sits down and asks me if I'd like to continue to work while in school. I said, not much, if it all (I have a 2nd job at night, so I'll be working already). So anyway, he bitches and gets all mad that I'm not wanting to work for him, and I explain that I will not make my schedule class8-12, working for him 12:30-3:30 and my 2nd job 4-8:30, then homework. Thats way too much work; I have a shitloadof things to get done now that its nice out. Anyway, my question is this: Since he KNEW I was leaving, and he just asked me NOW to work, he can't fire me can he? Like, he changed the hours, he changed the agreement, and he's basically demanding that I work for him during the week.

**** that. But is he able to fire me? I dont want to lose that reference.

- Ca$h
     
Too Much Coffee Woman
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Apr 11, 2002, 12:15 AM
 
When he hired you, you must have agreed upon the hours, wage and etc.

If you can't make the hours you agreed upon, then he has the right to fire you. If the commitment you made was with the knowledge that you had to leave (which you said he did), then he has no right to fire you on the basis of your current working hours. Having said that, i hope you let him know a full 2 weeks ahead of time that you were leaving.
     
MikeM32
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Apr 11, 2002, 07:35 AM
 
I don't think he can fire you because there must have been some agreement that you'd only work for him when you weren't attending classes.

But being fired or quitting works the same way in terms of references. Your past employer cannot prevent you from seeking future work. If you were fired and someone called them for a reference all they can say is "yeah he worked here".

So never admit you were fired, and always find someone else within the company as a second reference. This is what I did with my last job, there were PLENTY of other co-workers there that would vouch for me. Although I resigned the circumstances with which I resigned could be kinda hairy if they got out.

A little B.S.-ing with references on a resum� is okay IMHO.

Mike
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Apr 11, 2002, 09:13 AM
 
Originally posted by MikeM32:
<STRONG>I don't think he can fire you because there must have been some agreement that you'd only work for him when you weren't attending classes.

But being fired or quitting works the same way in terms of references. Your past employer cannot prevent you from seeking future work. If you were fired and someone called them for a reference all they can say is "yeah he worked here".

So never admit you were fired, and always find someone else within the company as a second reference. This is what I did with my last job, there were PLENTY of other co-workers there that would vouch for me. Although I resigned the circumstances with which I resigned could be kinda hairy if they got out.

A little B.S.-ing with references on a resum� is okay IMHO.

Mike</STRONG>
Whoa! Forgive me, but that's really bad advice.

B.S.-ing on your resume, and especially misleading on a simple "were you ever" question like "were you ever fired from a job" can land you in serious, serious trouble that can follow you for years.

In almost any case it is going to get you fired for cause and that's something that you really will be embarrassed about. But it can be a lot worse than that. If you ever go for a government, or government contractor job, there may be a background investigation. Lie on that and it can land you in legal hot water - including criminal sanctions. And one of the things they ask is your former employers is if you told them that you were ever fired by a previous employer. The professions (like law) also have background investigations. If you lie then they might not jail you, but you will likely be sanctioned or have your license yanked. That means your livelihood and expensive education would be down the tubes.

None of those consequences is worth risking because of a pissant college job.

So first, try to avoid the situation. It's always better to quit than be fired. If you can't renegotiate your working hours, then resigning is the honorable thing to do. Give notice if possible.

If you do get fired, I can't stress enough that it's still best to be honest with future employers, especially if they ask directly. Most employers will give you the opportunity to explain the situation, and the one you describe is a reasonable one that they will probably understand. But if you lied to them, they aren't going to listen or care.

None of this means you are obligated to draw attention to a bad previous employment situation. If you have multiple supervisors, it's fine to use the one you had the best relationship with. Listing a peer as a supervisor, though, is lying, and most employers aren't stupid enough to misrepresent on your behalf. It's also not necessarily the case that your former employer can't tell an employer if they fired you, although many do have the policy of limiting references to dates of employment and position.

Good luck and don't sweat it. But just don't make an already awkward situation worse.


DISCLAIMER: This is just life advice. It should not be taken as legal advice as I am not licensed to practice law.
     
malvolio
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Apr 11, 2002, 09:18 AM
 
"It's always better to quit than be fired."

That depends on your goals. If you get fired, you can draw unemployment. If you quit, you can't.
/mal
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SimeyTheLimey
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Apr 11, 2002, 09:25 AM
 
Originally posted by malvolio:
<STRONG>"It's always better to quit than be fired."

That depends on your goals. If you get fired, you can draw unemployment. If you quit, you can't.
</STRONG>
Ever been on unemployment? Not a fun experience, and not something I would call a "goal."
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Apr 11, 2002, 09:27 AM
 
Besides, the questioner is a part timer. S(he) probably isn't eligible for unemployment anyway.
     
dawho9
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Apr 11, 2002, 11:44 AM
 
Originally posted by MikeM32:
<STRONG>If you were fired and someone called them for a reference all they can say is "yeah he worked here".
</STRONG>
This is sorta true. Most HR departments tell all department managers that if they get a call for a reference, they should do the above. Say when he worked here, dates and salary if they wish.

However, before my current job, I worked for a local private investiagation firm on the Microsoft Anti-Piracy team. When Microsoft didn't have any work for me, I stayed in the office and worked on background investigations.

I would say 50% of former bosses will break the above rule and spill their guts if asked. Usually the conversation would begin with them saying they could say anything, but as you ask a few more questions, they talk!

And if they say anything bad about you, there really is not much you can do. I remember one case where a former employer informed me that the employee was let go because of stealing. We let the new company know about this and they didn't hire him. He came back and tried to sue the firm I worked for, but as you sign a release form before any background investigation will happen, you don't have much for rights.

later,

dw9
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ringo
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Apr 11, 2002, 12:39 PM
 
Unless you're under contract, you can be fired at any time and for any (or no) reason at all.
     
dgs212
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Apr 11, 2002, 02:13 PM
 
Originally posted by ringo:
<STRONG>Unless you're under contract, you can be fired at any time and for any (or no) reason at all.</STRONG>
Not for your race, religion, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, etc you can't. That's illegal.

Actually, I guess you could be fired, but then you could legally sue your former employer for breaking the law.
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Apr 11, 2002, 02:23 PM
 
Originally posted by dgs212:
<STRONG>

Not for your race, religion, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, etc you can't. That's illegal.

Actually, I guess you could be fired, but then you could legally sue your former employer for breaking the law.</STRONG>
In most states, there are no employment protections on the basis of sexual orientation.
     
How you like them Apples?
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Apr 11, 2002, 02:24 PM
 
Originally posted by malvolio:
<STRONG>If you quit, you can't.
</STRONG>
Yes you can actually.

There's a typo in this sentence, but it slides away when your eyes move toward it.
     
jholmes
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Apr 11, 2002, 02:45 PM
 
In many cases they employer doesn't have to cite a reason. They can fire you for any reason at all and then choose not to disclose that reason.

This falls under the big 'Life isn't fair" clause that we all agree to on our way out of the birth canal.
`Everybody is ignorant. Only on different subjects.' -- Will Rogers
     
malvolio
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Apr 11, 2002, 02:47 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
<STRONG>

Ever been on unemployment? Not a fun experience, and not something I would call a "goal."</STRONG>
Yes I have, and it sucks. But this is Ca$h we're talking about.
/mal
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malvolio
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Apr 11, 2002, 02:50 PM
 
Originally posted by How you like them Apples?:
<STRONG>

Yes you can actually.</STRONG>
(The reference was to getting unemployment if you quit a job.)
Not here in New York State in the USA. You Canadians are socially ahead of us, of course...
/mal
"I sentence you to be hanged by the neck until you cheer up."
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SimeyTheLimey
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Apr 11, 2002, 02:56 PM
 
Originally posted by How you like them Apples?:
<STRONG>

Yes you can actually.</STRONG>
Well, maybe in Canada!! But not anywhere in the U.S. that I am aware of.
     
Stoopid
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Apr 11, 2002, 03:42 PM
 
In NY you can collect unemployment if you quit to further your education, which it sounds like you are.
     
Severed Hand of Skywalker
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Apr 11, 2002, 03:57 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
<STRONG>

Well, maybe in Canada!! But not anywhere in the U.S. that I am aware of.</STRONG>
Shame. If you quit you need just cause as listed below. I am sure they must have something like this in the U.S.

The following are some of the most common circumstances that we may consider as just causes:

sexual or other harassment
needing to move with a spouse or dependent child to another place of residence
discrimination
working conditions that endanger your health or safety
having to provide care for a child or another member of your immediate family
reasonable assurance of another job in the immediate future
major changes in the terms and conditions of your job affecting wages or salary
excessive overtime or an employer�s refusal to pay for overtime work
major changes in work duties
difficult relations with a supervisor, for which you are not primarily responsible
your employer is doing things which break the law
discrimination because of membership in an association, organization or union of workers
pressure from your employer or fellow workers to quit your job

"Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh"
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Apr 11, 2002, 04:17 PM
 
Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
<STRONG>

Shame. If you quit you need just cause as listed below. I am sure they must have something like this in the U.S.

The following are some of the most common circumstances that we may consider as just causes:

sexual or other harassment
needing to move with a spouse or dependent child to another place of residence
discrimination
working conditions that endanger your health or safety
having to provide care for a child or another member of your immediate family
reasonable assurance of another job in the immediate future
major changes in the terms and conditions of your job affecting wages or salary
excessive overtime or an employer�s refusal to pay for overtime work
major changes in work duties
difficult relations with a supervisor, for which you are not primarily responsible
your employer is doing things which break the law
discrimination because of membership in an association, organization or union of workers
pressure from your employer or fellow workers to quit your job</STRONG>
I don't think the answer is that straightforward. It would be mostly a state law issue, so you will get 52 answers (50 states, plus D.C and P.R.). In addition, some local jurisdictions have ordinances that might apply and depending on circumstance aspects of federal civil rights laws might intersect.

If you want specifics about what is actionable where, you need an employment lawyer familiar with the law of your state and who is a member of the correct bar.

Or you could go to law school.
     
How you like them Apples?
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Apr 11, 2002, 04:34 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
<STRONG>

I don't think the answer is that straightforward. It would be mostly a state law issue, so you will get 52 answers (50 states, plus D.C and P.R.). In addition, some local jurisdictions have ordinances that might apply and depending on circumstance aspects of federal civil rights laws might intersect.

If you want specifics about what is actionable where, you need an employment lawyer familiar with the law of your state and who is a member of the correct bar.

Or you could go to law school. </STRONG>
Since Canada has zero states I don't think you would get 52 answers

I applied once and it was very easy, fill out a few questions show them a pay stub and you are good to go.

There's a typo in this sentence, but it slides away when your eyes move toward it.
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Apr 11, 2002, 04:38 PM
 
Originally posted by How you like them Apples?:
<STRONG>


I applied once [to law school] and it was very easy, fill out a few questions show them a pay stub and you are good to go.</STRONG>
Way too few zeroes for that on my pay stub. Thank God for loans!
     
deedar
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Apr 11, 2002, 06:05 PM
 
Have you considered carpentry? This may be a major turning point in your life.
     
MikeM32
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Apr 11, 2002, 09:45 PM
 
Originally posted by SlimeyTheLimey:
Whoa! Forgive me, but that's really bad advice.

B.S.-ing on your resume, and especially misleading on a simple "were you ever" question like "were you ever fired from a job" can land you in serious, serious trouble that can follow you for years.
My original post was written just before I went to work this morning and I just knew someone would jump on me because I didn't have time to elaborate on what I meant. That's okay though I forgive you for being a jackass

First off a resum� isn't the employer asking you questions, it's you presenting the facts about yourself and your abilities as you see them to your potential employer, there's a difference between a resum� and a job application. Now I wouldn't condone someone lieing about a certain skill, or profession that's simply un-ethical and un-professional, but not mentionning you were fired or quit on your resum� is no "crime". You simply list your former employers. Generally you only want to list those pertinent to the line of work you're in, or those you feel you contributed to the most and also got the most out of in terms of skills.

For example; as an engineer who just left or got fired from a 5 year engineering job and was forced to take a job at wal-mart for a few months to make ends meet, I wouldn't put the wal-mart job on a resum� or application for a future engineering job. It's irrelevant and just makes you look desperate.

In almost any case it is going to get you fired for cause and that's something that you really will be embarrassed about. But it can be a lot worse than that. If you ever go for a government, or government contractor job, there may be a background investigation. Lie on that and it can land you in legal hot water - including criminal sanctions. And one of the things they ask is your former employers is if you told them that you were ever fired by a previous employer. The professions (like law) also have background investigations. If you lie then they might not jail you, but you will likely be sanctioned or have your license yanked. That means your livelihood and expensive education would be down the tubes.

None of those consequences is worth risking because of a pissant college job.
Okay granted anyone who's seeking a career as a lawyer or in any government position will likely have to sign off for a background check. Let's remember there are many people here who are not planning on becoming lawyers or working for the government. My line of work is computer graphics mainly in the printing industry and I've never seen a company require me to sign any former employment background check agreement. If I did I�d be very offended since it violates my civil rights to seek work, even if I don�t have anything to worry about, it�s the principal that they�re trying to break the law. Would I want to work for people that would invade my privacy constantly? NO. As far as criminal background checks go, well that's a given.

So first, try to avoid the situation. It's always better to quit than be fired. If you can't renegotiate your working hours, then resigning is the honorable thing to do. Give notice if possible.
Gotta disagree there from experience. Quitting with work lined-up is fine though. Sometimes (like my last job) that's not the case. I was basically on my newest bosses bad side, and there wasn't going to be a chance I was keeping my job. Sad, since it was my first job in the field, and I'd learned alot and contributed alot to that company as-well. For a very long time I was thier best worker, but this new person had it in for me and she had the support of all her higher-ups too. The anxiety drove me to quit without any employment lined-up. I was unable to collect unemployment because I quit. So as bad as the situation was there I should have stayed until I got fired (which was inevitable also). But I would have definitely kept that job had circumstances been different.

If you do get fired, I can't stress enough that it's still best to be honest with future employers, especially if they ask directly. Most employers will give you the opportunity to explain the situation, and the one you describe is a reasonable one that they will probably understand. But if you lied to them, they aren't going to listen or care.
I�d always try to say I quit first. The best �reason� for quitting is usually �lack of advancement opportunities�. There�s several ways to say you were fired without �sounding� like you screwed-up to future employers, but the best thing to tell them is you were a �victem of downsizing�. This is a commonly accepted �reason� for losing a job these days and still won�t make you look like a screw-up to a potential employer.

The bottom-line of your future employment is �getting the job�. This doesn�t mean lieing about being �a doctor�, it just means sometimes the truth can be stretched a bit here and there. Also, you don�t �need� your last boss a reference, just get a good referal from a previous co-worker. I have a great friend who I worked with previously who will literally lie and say he was my boss at my previous job if necessary. This guy also was sort of my �mentor� at my last job, and basically taught me everything I know now. It�s nice to find people like that in the corporate world of �me first and screw you� types.

As for you Simey, I really gotta wonder what �side� of the corporate world your on, the owners or the workers? Something tells me you lean towards the corporate way of thinking. I tend to believe in unity of workers, and commeradery between those in a business. This seems to spawn true teamwork IMHO.

Just remember the cushy job can all be taken away in a heartbeat without any notice sorta like it was with me.

Mike

[ 04-11-2002: Message edited by: MikeM32 ]
     
Bockie
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Apr 12, 2002, 06:56 AM
 
Originally posted by deedar:
<STRONG>Have you considered carpentry? This may be a major turning point in your life.</STRONG>
LOL

Best post of the year!
09.11.01 - UNITED WE STAND
     
siegzdad
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Apr 12, 2002, 07:33 AM
 
If the employer cannot be flexible in your goals as a student, which he obviously knew of, then you don't need him. Your education should come first.

Working the two jobs just isn't going to cut it either. You will be too burned out to perform well on any level... I would suggest that you tell your employer that your education must come first, and that if he cannot be flexibl, then you do not think you can continue to work for him and that you are sorry that he cannot see things from your point of view.

You work for him, you aren't owned by him.
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SimeyTheLimey
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Apr 12, 2002, 08:54 AM
 
Originally posted by deedar:
<STRONG>Have you considered carpentry? This may be a major turning point in your life.</STRONG>
I'd starve.
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Apr 12, 2002, 09:14 AM
 
Originally posted by MikeM32:
<STRONG>As for you Simey, I really gotta wonder what �side� of the corporate world your on, the owners or the workers? Something tells me you lean towards the corporate way of thinking. I tend to believe in unity of workers, and commeradery between those in a business. This seems to spawn true teamwork IMHO.

Just remember the cushy job can all be taken away in a heartbeat without any notice sorta like it was with me.

Mike

[ 04-11-2002: Message edited by: MikeM32 ]</STRONG>

Actually, I was talking about being ethical, which I don't think has anything to do with whether you are an employer or employee (look at Enron!). I'm also saying that shading the truth, getting people to misrepresent on your behalf and exaggerating work history can and do get people into trouble all the time. So in this area, being ethical is in the long run a matter of self-interest. Whether you beleive me or not is pretty moot.

About planning to be a government worker or lawyer: heck, I didn't plan to be either, but here I am. What I was trying to point out is that if you do get into that situation, the background checks can be very thorough. I had two job offers from government departments last year, and they each had to do an investigation. One went back 7 years, the other went back 10 and involved agents running around actually talking to supervisors from a decade ago. Now, what do you think would happen if they found out that some reference I used was really just a buddy in the next cubicle who was willing to lie on my behalf? Not good, I would suspect.

That is admittedly extreme situation. Most employers don't pry that much. But you don't have to work directly for Uncle Sam to undego a government background check. Lots of work (for example in I.T.) is done by contractors, but the investigations are the same. So all I am saying, is that creating potential problems for yourself when you can't predict the future and don't know what might come your way is maybe shortsighted.

On the other hand, I agree with you completely about streamlining your resume. That's not only ethical, its normal. If I had every stupid temp job on mine it would be 5 pages long. Where people really get into trouble is when they stretch the truth. For example, if someone drops out of school in their junior year, its tempting to say you graduated. Or maybe that gpa goes up just a bit. Most of the time people get away with this, but when they do get caught, it's ugly.

Bottom line is you have to do what you think is right, but still I think in the long run its best to err on the side of being ethical.
     
   
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