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A bit of a legal one...
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NobleMatt
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Dec 21, 2010, 03:59 PM
 
... but im hoping someone might be able to help me. If you can spare 5 min to answer any of the questions below I would love you forever as

I was summoned at work today for a meeting regarding the future of the company. To cut a long story short chances of me being paid on friday are very slim and I have been offered 3 options.

1) Delay receiving any of my salary pay till January the 3rd at the earliest providing the company has any funds by then (if not as soon as they can afford to).

2) Friday is my last day working for the company and we go are own ways, i get paid what I'm owed (i need to work out when this is, hopefully if there people stay in the company friday)

3) Doesn't guarantee me a salary and with a rent to pay (i have no savings) etc, this isn't an option to me

So based on this I have a few questions I hope some people may be able to help me out with and keep in mind i was already planning my exit from the company.

A) Is point 2 classed as being made redundant? Thus entitling me to redundancy pay (not much) and untaken holiday pay (written into my contract). If I outright refuse to take Option 1 & 3 leaving this as my only option then does that force him to make me redundant etc.

B) If i do chose to take Option 2 and say some of my colleges take option one (freeing up maybe enough cash to pay my salary on Dec 24th can he revoke these options and lock me back into my contract?

C) Keeping in mind I was already planning on leaving the company (once I had found another job) what do you think i should do? (dont worry none of your opinions will be used as evidence lol and i know you have limited information available but just go with a gut instinct)

Thanks for any help :-)
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NobleMatt  (op)
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Dec 21, 2010, 04:01 PM
 
(worth keeping in mind this is all under UK law)
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imitchellg5
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Dec 21, 2010, 04:07 PM
 
Here is the way I see it:

Option 1: Shows the company has no available funds. If the company doesn't have money by 3 Jan, then you're screwed.

Option 2: It's basically as if you've quit as anyone normally would, and you'd get your pay on whatever your next normal pay day is. And the cheque might bounce. But shows the company either does have some money left or will be able to cover pay by your next pay date.

I'd take option 2. And no, you can not be locked back into your contract. You have the right to break employment at your wish at any time.
( Last edited by imitchellg5; Dec 21, 2010 at 04:30 PM. )
     
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Dec 21, 2010, 04:11 PM
 
I concur.

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Dec 21, 2010, 04:23 PM
 
They've got you over a barrel here, unless it's explicitly stated that option 2 is a redundancy.
If so, that's the one to go for.
If not, then it's rock and hard place (but it still seems that 2 has the edge).
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Dec 21, 2010, 04:40 PM
 
Remember that in order to receive benefits you can't quit your job - you need to be made redundant. Option 2 makes it sound like you're quitting, meaning there will be no support payments. Given that you have no savings, that's not a good place to be.

I would take option 2, with the paperwork proving that you've been let go - under no circumstances quit yourself. That's more important that securing payment for overtime/holiday at this moment.
     
ThinkInsane
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Dec 21, 2010, 04:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
Remember that in order to receive benefits you can't quit your job - you need to be made redundant. Option 2 makes it sound like you're quitting, meaning there will be no support payments. Given that you have no savings, that's not a good place to be.

I would take option 2, with the paperwork proving that you've been let go - under no circumstances quit yourself. That's more important that securing payment for overtime/holiday at this moment.
I don't know how unemployment benefits work in the UK (and here they vary from state to state), but here in NY you can quit and still receive benefits depending on the circumstances of departure. I think your employer not paying you your salary qualifies. But again, I have no idea how it works in the UK. If I was the OP, I'd start making some phone calls to the Labor Department (or whatever the UK is called) and find out what's what.

Regardless, I'd be looking to move on one way or the other. A company not paying it's employees doesn't seem to bode well for the future.
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Dec 21, 2010, 05:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by ThinkInsane View Post
I don't know how unemployment benefits work in the UK (and here they vary from state to state), but here in NY you can quit and still receive benefits depending on the circumstances of departure.
Worth checking for sure. I haven't lived in the UK for close to eight years now, so my knowledge might well be rusty.
     
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Dec 21, 2010, 05:24 PM
 
I suspect that'd be months of legal wrangling while the OP starves to death.
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Dec 21, 2010, 05:35 PM
 
IANAL and all that, but as I read it, option 2 would mean that you have been made redundant. Your current contract is that you get paid on the 24th and work until further notice. You've been asked to defer that payment, and you can accept or decline. The consequences of declining might be that you are made redundant, but declining that offer is not the same as quitting.

IMO, take option 1 if they can guarantee you the money on Jan 3rd (and you can afford to wait, obviously), otherwise option 2.
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Dec 21, 2010, 05:58 PM
 
Just refuse to pick any of the options and make them fire you.
Then you have been made redundant for sure.

As I read it, if you don't pick, Option 2) will go into effect and they will fire you on Friday.
BUT: don't pick this option, because then they'd say you quit.

(You can always explain to the next employer why you acted that way.)

-t
     
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Dec 21, 2010, 06:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Just refuse to pick any of the options and make them fire you.
Then you have been made redundant for sure.
No no no no no.
No redundancy pay in that. And the dole won't take kindly to it, so maybe no unemployment benefits (for what they're worth).
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turtle777
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Dec 21, 2010, 06:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
No no no no no.
No redundancy pay in that. And the dole won't take kindly to it, so maybe no unemployment benefits (for what they're worth).
Say what ?

So why would companies EVER do redundancies, if they could just fire people ?
Or they fire the ones they don't like, and make redundant those they DO like ?

Note to self: don't work in the UK.

-t
     
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Dec 21, 2010, 06:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Say what ?

So why would companies EVER do redundancies, if they could just fire people ?
Or they fire the ones they don't like, and make redundant those they DO like ?
Italics is correct. Although it's getting kind of hard to fire people these days.

Basically, there's three approaches:
Quit.
Fired.
Made redundant.

Only the latter will gain full dole (IIRC). Doesn't always carry redundancy payment - I've seen people made redundant without payment as a "we really don't want you working here but we don't want to mess up your dole arrangements" deal, basically should have been fired but owner had a heart.

Redundant with no payment is still better than quit or fired.
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Dec 21, 2010, 06:42 PM
 
As there's no guarantee of them paying you on Jan. 3, I'd have them make you redundant (get all agreements in writing) immediately so you can hopefully obtain unemployment benefits and, more importantly, devote your time to finding another job rather than spending that time working for an employer who may or may not pay you come Jan. 3.

I don't know what industry you're in, but if it's gotten so desperate that they presented you with these options, I wouldn't hold out hope that things will dramatically change in 2 weeks and the financial crisis will pass. If a company is poorly run fiscally or doesn't have the clientele to continue operations, those are not quick-fix scenarios.

Sorry to hear about your situation. And the typical disclaimers apply: IANAL, etc.
     
NobleMatt  (op)
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Dec 21, 2010, 07:04 PM
 
Brilliant, well first off all thank you all for your responses, its all very interesting, across all the places I have shared this and people I have linked it to, pretty much everyone has said option 2, and im tempted to agree, the whole making sure its being made redundant rather than me quitting is interesting.

So why would companies EVER do redundancies, if they could just fire people ?
In response to this, there is the Employment 1996 Act which stops companies from inappropriately firing people and if they do they can expect to be in court not long after.
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Dec 21, 2010, 08:40 PM
 
I would leave on Friday, put a lot of effort in finding a new position quickly and it could be a blessing in disguise.
     
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Dec 21, 2010, 11:48 PM
 
If your company can't make payroll then it's time to check out. Tell them to can you in a way that lets you have all benefits and find another job.
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NobleMatt  (op)
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Dec 22, 2010, 05:23 AM
 
Just told him I'll take option 2 on the basses that im being made redundant, other wise i reject all the options and he has to make me redundant for not being able to meet my contract.

Here starts a very difficult patch.
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Dec 22, 2010, 07:07 AM
 
It seems to me that a version of option 2 is the most sensible one: it seems the company is financially in dire straights and I wouldn't count on them being able to pay you early next year.

However, it may make a huge difference how you go your separate ways: I don't know about UK law, but in Germany, if the employee terminates the work contract, he or she loses eligibility for, say, severance pay and (probably more important in your situation) government aid (for, say, unemployment). While I don't think you'll be able to get any severance pay (or if there is such a thing in the UK), the latter is very important if you don't have any savings.
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Dec 23, 2010, 03:44 PM
 
How did it go?
     
bstone
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Dec 24, 2010, 02:13 AM
 
Well? What happened?
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Dec 24, 2010, 02:37 AM
 
If he's never seen again, we'll know it went badly.
     
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Dec 26, 2010, 03:35 AM
 
He'll be fine. A little less time on the NN and a little more time looking for work never hurt anyone.
     
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Dec 26, 2010, 07:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kerrigan View Post
He'll be fine. A little less time on the NN and a little more time looking for work never hurt anyone.
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NobleMatt  (op)
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Jan 2, 2011, 09:51 AM
 
Ha ha, sorry guys never got time to post a reply with everything that went on and then moving back to my mums for christmas and new year, just starting to sit down to work on my portfolio now, which i think suggests how it went.

I took on board everyones advice and agreed with it, so i'm no longer working for the company but relationships are good, he has outlined his plan to use me as a freelancer (where money allows) until I find a new job and when money allows him to and has said that if in like 5 months time im still out on my ass and things have picked up he would love to take me back. But i'm not relying on that, put it that way.

The deal with which i left stated that "I Resigned" and have a letter explaining the situation around that, I also had a redundancy payment of 1 weeks wages and back dated holiday from the last 13 months which is something near 2 weeks (non of which i have been paid to date inc my last months pay).

So i guess im looking for a new job, let me know if anyone see's one lol

Thanks everyone for your input that helped me make my mind up and im sure you'll see me posting my portfolio soon for feed back.

A little less time on the NN and a little more time looking for work never hurt anyone
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Jan 2, 2011, 10:06 AM
 
So no unemployment benefits and a vague offer from a broke company to hire you freelance (on your own insurance and taxes, pending fulfillment of other requirements you might need to meet to qualify as a freelancer in the UK) when they happen to be not broke, in exchange for pay and vacation you've contractually earned to date, plus one weeks' pay?

Sounds like they got a great deal.
     
NobleMatt  (op)
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Jan 2, 2011, 10:35 AM
 
lol, i shouldn't have unemployment benefits issues as i have the letter explaining the situation which the Department for Work and Pention have a copy of. They didn't seem to think it was an issue when i applied for xmas.

I'd much rather leave now and get something (fingers crossed) than in 2 months when i get nothing) I'm happy, I'm still young (22) and i have the support of my Mum who shall be putting me up from Feb onwards while i sort out a new job etc.
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turtle777
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Jan 2, 2011, 11:50 AM
 
Yeah, the UK system sounds completely f*cked up.

I like the US or German system better: anyone gets unemployment benefits, no matter how the job ended (if it was not voluntary). No need for companies to pick who they like and "fire" them appropriately so that they get benefits.

-t
     
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Jan 2, 2011, 01:14 PM
 
That's not precisely true. A company in the US can deny unemployment, lie about reasons for firing, and it's very hard to fight.
     
turtle777
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Jan 2, 2011, 01:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
That's not precisely true. A company in the US can deny unemployment, lie about reasons for firing, and it's very hard to fight.
I'm not 100% sure, but in order to get benefits, I thought it really didn't matter WHY you were fired.

I assume the company can't claim you quit when you really got fired. That should be an easy lawsuit.

-t
     
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Jan 2, 2011, 05:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
German system better: anyone gets unemployment benefits, no matter how the job ended (if
AFAIK, if you get fired rather than made redundant there's no state support for three months.
     
NobleMatt  (op)
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Jan 4, 2011, 06:04 AM
 
I found out in the UK you dont get state benefit for 6 months if you quit for no reason, lets home i dont fall into that trap, im good for a month and a bit (if i ever get paid what im owed) at the moment im running on borrowed money and i really dont like to do that
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turtle777
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Jan 4, 2011, 10:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
AFAIK, if you get fired rather than made redundant there's no state support for three months.
Getting fired in Germany is almost a miracle. It rarely happens (by Anglo-America standards). And if it does, the courts often reverse the decision. It's very hard to fire someone so that it's bullet-proof in case of a lawsuit.

-t
     
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Jan 4, 2011, 07:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by crazyreaper View Post
I found out in the UK you dont get state benefit for 6 months if you quit for no reason, lets home i dont fall into that trap, im good for a month and a bit (if i ever get paid what im owed) at the moment im running on borrowed money and i really dont like to do that
That is why it was suggested above that you under no circumstances quit yourself, and make sure to get that in writing.
     
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Jan 4, 2011, 11:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by crazyreaper View Post
I found out in the UK you dont get state benefit for 6 months if you quit for no reason, lets home i dont fall into that trap
Yeah, in all likelihood you're buggered. You resigned instead of had yourself made redundant. The Dole aren't really very flexible about things like that.
It's not like you weren't warned!
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Jan 4, 2011, 11:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Yeah, the UK system sounds completely f*cked up.
It's basically because here in the UK we're a bunch of lazy slobs. Many, many people would be quite content to quit work and live off the dole if the system allowed them to, so TPTB have this setup in place to keep the welfare bill down.
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Jan 4, 2011, 11:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
It's basically because here in the UK we're a bunch of lazy slobs. Many, many people would be quite content to quit work and live off the dole if the system allowed them to, so TPTB have this setup in place to keep the welfare bill down.
I have no issues with the general concept of keeping welfare down.

However, *IF* you pay welfare, pay it to everyone for a short period of time, regardless of how your previous job ended.

-t
     
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Jan 4, 2011, 11:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
I have no issues with the general concept of keeping welfare down.

However, *IF* you pay welfare, pay it to everyone for a short period of time, regardless of how your previous job ended.
But like I said earlier in the thread, most bosses will make redundant if you want to quit. If the boss doesn't do this, either he's a knobhead or the employee is unworthy of pity.

In crazyreaper's case, it would appear that something odd is going on. "Resigned" and gets redundancy pay? I'm guessing his boss was a knobhead - bit of a wide-boy maybe. Lack of cashflow supports this observation.
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NobleMatt  (op)
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Jan 5, 2011, 07:07 AM
 
bit of a wide-boy maybe


LOL, no comment

make sure to get that in writing


I have the email outlining the 3 options that were laid out to me and was told that he wasn't able to make me as my position wasn't being made redundant. To which I said, yes but your defaulting on my contract and he said that he could just terminate my contract (I was employed in a permanent position) and i would get nothing. Is this true or is he trying to pull a fast one on me?

I still haven't been paid my last months wage/redundancy pay/holiday and have currently borrowed £300 of my own mum to pay bills and get me through christmas. I have my rent due on the 10th which is for £450 and I can't see me getting paid before then, at what point do I start getting in their face about it? We're talking something in the region of £1500+ i think)

It's not like you weren't warned!


I know but I was basically told I didn't have an option, work on unpaid or resign.

Thanks for the help guys, I'm starting to get a little nervous now :S
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Jan 5, 2011, 07:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by crazyreaper View Post
I said, yes but your defaulting on my contract and he said that he could just terminate my contract (I was employed in a permanent position) and i would get nothing. Is this true or is he trying to pull a fast one on me?
I don't know about British law, but here in Germany, you qualify for unemployment benefits when you've been laid off, and you DON'T qualify if you quit yourself.

Further, if you are laid off, the employer is required by law to pay you severance - here, it's generally one monthly wage for every year you've been in his employ.

These terms are, of course, negotiable.

But unless something else has been agreed upon in writing, you can sue for owed wages and owed severance pay, and you will win.

So if your situation happened in Germany, your employer just got out of paying you severance, will probably weasel his way out of paying you your owed wages (knowing that you'd have to sue him but don't have the money to do so), and you have nothing to show for it but a meaningless promise for further work at his discretion, and a difficult question to answer in every future job interview ("Why did you leave your previous job?").
( Last edited by Spheric Harlot; Jan 5, 2011 at 07:33 AM. )
     
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Jan 5, 2011, 07:30 AM
 
I would start dealing with your company in writing (≠ e-mail!). It looks as if he's trying to strong-arm you into continue working for free and eventually make you default from your contract. That way he doesn't have to pay severance. In Germany, that would make you ineligible for unemployment benefits, but since that depends on national law, I am not sure this is also true for the UK.

I would look into organizations that help people in your situation for free or ask a friend or relative who is a lawyer to look into it. If you have a lawyer sign an official letter, it tends to impress some people. Feel free to let your boss know that legal actions won't cost you that much (which puts pressure on him). In the meantime, gather all the paper you can (at least in Germany, e-mails don't have the same legal standing as letters).
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Jan 5, 2011, 07:34 AM
 
I can't quite follow what's going on...didn't cr ask for advice, say he agreed with the response, and then go and do the opposite of what people suggested and come back to tell everyone about it?

I feel there's been a lost in translation moment here...
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NobleMatt  (op)
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Jan 5, 2011, 07:47 AM
 
I don't know about British law, but here in Germany, you qualify for unemployment benefits when you've been laid off, and you DON'T qualify if you quit yourself.
From everyone I've spoke to here thats the same with the exception "you DON'T qualify if you quit yourself for no reason"

Further, if you are laid off, the employer is required by law to pay you severance - here, it's generally one monthly wage for every year you've been in his employ.
We have agreed, Verbally anyway that I will receive my holiday pay from the past 13 months I am owed (as ive only taken 3 days of it baring bank holidays) and my redundancy payment I would have received If i had been laid off (which in the UK is legally 1 week per year you have worked, i think)

But unless something else has been agreed upon in writing, you can sue for owed wages and owed severance pay, and you will win.
Yer i've thought this, but would have no idea how to go about it.

will probably weasel his way out of paying you your owed wages (knowing that you'd have to sue him but don't have the money to do so)
Really even though he knew it would last about 2 min in court and at least a 1 min of that will be standing up and sitting down?

I would start dealing with your company in writing (≠ e-mail!).
Good idea, i like this, i sent him an email 2 days ago asking for an update and have heard nothing back, do i need to send these recorded?

It looks as if he's trying to strong-arm you into continue working for free and eventually make you default from your contract.
I've already stopped working for him, and will only work freelance in the future for him with a upfront payment of like 50% of the contract.

In the meantime, gather all the paper you can (at least in Germany, e-mails don't have the same legal standing as letters).
I'm back in the city on monday so will meet him and have this paper work drawn up.

Thanks for all the advice again, this is something im facing for the first time i dont really have anyone to ask these questions to. I have a close friends Mrs who works in a legal firm with contracts I think so might be able to tap her up, or possibly my ex gf who is studying it
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OreoCookie
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Jan 5, 2011, 08:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by crazyreaper View Post
From everyone I've spoke to here thats the same with the exception "you DON'T qualify if you quit yourself for no reason"
If you're lucky, your lawyer (and your reply to my post indicates you have one) can do something about that.
Originally Posted by crazyreaper View Post
We have agreed, Verbally anyway that I will receive my holiday pay from the past 13 months I am owed (as ive only taken 3 days of it baring bank holidays) and my redundancy payment I would have received If i had been laid off (which in the UK is legally 1 week per year you have worked, i think)
Forget about every verbal agreement you have with him. It won't hold up in any sort of legal proceedings, unless you have independent witnesses ((former) co-workers who have a vested interest in keeping their jobs are not good witnesses). Do everything in writing, even if it seems silly.
Originally Posted by crazyreaper View Post
Really even though he knew it would last about 2 min in court and at least a 1 min of that will be standing up and sitting down?
Of course! Most people are afraid to sue or think it's too expensive to sue.
Originally Posted by crazyreaper View Post
Good idea, i like this, i sent him an email 2 days ago asking for an update and have heard nothing back, do i need to send these recorded?
What do you mean by `send these recorded?' You need to start sending physical letters, that's what I'm saying.
Originally Posted by crazyreaper View Post
I've already stopped working for him, and will only work freelance in the future for him with a upfront payment of like 50% of the contract.
What?!?
This guy cheats you out of your job, possibly your unemployment benefits and your severance pay, yet you continue to work for him?!? If you add things up, you'll make more working at McDonald's.
Originally Posted by crazyreaper View Post
Thanks for all the advice again, this is something im facing for the first time i dont really have anyone to ask these questions to. I have a close friends Mrs who works in a legal firm with contracts I think so might be able to tap her up, or possibly my ex gf who is studying it
Your best bet is someone who is an actual lawyer, not just a paralegal (or worse, a law student). I'm lucky, my dad is a retired lawyer.
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Jan 5, 2011, 09:35 AM
 
This guy sounds like a real piece of work, I would not trust him as far as I could throw him. If you meet with him bring a written statement saying, I agree to give crazy reaper his back holiday pay and severance blah blah and have him sign it. If he won't, then to hell with him and let loose the lawyers.
     
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Jan 5, 2011, 10:33 AM
 
I'm not sure I understand the fear of emails. At least here in North America, they're perfectly admissable as evidence - not sure why they wouldn't be in Europe? Far more reliable than verbal. Just print them out (with date-stamp if possible) so you have hard copies.
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NobleMatt  (op)
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Jan 5, 2011, 10:36 AM
 
What do you mean by `send these recorded?' You need to start sending physical letters, that's what I'm saying.
is in recorded delivery so i have proof that he received them (maybe a UK think)

What?!?
This guy cheats you out of your job, possibly your unemployment benefits and your severance pay, yet you continue to work for him?!? If you add things up, you'll make more working at McDonald's.


Originally Posted by crazyreaper
I've already stopped working for him
the freelance will only happen once ive been paid up

If you meet with him bring a written statement saying, I agree to give crazy reaper his back holiday pay and severance blah blah and have him sign it.
Shall get that sorted for Monday
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Jan 5, 2011, 10:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
I'm not sure I understand the fear of emails. At least here in North America, they're perfectly admissable as evidence - not sure why they wouldn't be in Europe? Far more reliable than verbal. Just print them out (with date-stamp if possible) so you have hard copies.
Anything written down is better than a verbal agreement. As far as I understand, you cannot sign legal contracts by e-mail in Germany, you need a written signature. I'm not sure whether this has any implications in a legal battle in the UK, but writing regular letters is probably a better idea.
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Jan 5, 2011, 10:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
I'm not sure I understand the fear of emails. At least here in North America, they're perfectly admissable as evidence - not sure why they wouldn't be in Europe? Far more reliable than verbal. Just print them out (with date-stamp if possible) so you have hard copies.
They're not admissible as legal evidence because they're no more reliable than verbal agreements (except that verbal agreements ARE admissible if witnesses exist).

I can print out ANYTHING with a date, a from, and a to address.

Stuff pulled of corporate servers by a forensics team is a different matter, obviously.

The bizarre anachronism here is that faxes ARE legal documents - presumably because faxes weren't as easily manipulatable until about twenty-five years ago, and such regulations change s - l - o - w - l - y.
     
 
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