[Big Mac]

Hey guys, why don't we post our political compasses? I'll start.

[villalobos]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Hey guys, why don't we post our political compasses? I'll start.

My compass

There are a few points where I wish there was a "don't give a f@#k" choice.

[Sayf-Allah]

[OreoCookie]

They should have included a neutral on some, I agree.

Here's mine, make of it whatever you like:

[Doofy]

I'm about 0.2 to the right of Big Mac, but otherwise identical.

BTW, the green section cannot exist in real life.

[Big Mac]

It's a fun site, although I can't believe they somehow put Hillary Clinton as far to the right as they do; Obama shouldn't be on the right, either.

[TheMosco]

[villalobos]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

It's a fun site, although I can't believe they somehow put Hillary Clinton as far to the right as they do; Obama shouldn't be on the right, either.

Obama is on the right. Your perception of things is just screwed. There is no real lefty in the US political spectrum. At least none who would get elected.

[villalobos]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

BTW, the green section cannot exist in real life.

Sure does. It's called compassionate libertarian. :-)

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by villalobos 

Obama is on the right. Your perception of things is just screwed. There is no real lefty in the US political spectrum. At least none who would get elected.

I was hoping this topic would come up. Those who say there's no real left-wing in American politics are deluded. First of all, there are leftists in Congress, which is borne out even by that site, and if you compare their agenda to BHO you see there isn't much difference at all. BHO is a leftist who wants to come off as a moderate to get elected. He talks about tax cuts when what he really means is welfare for the bottom and tax increases for the middle class. There are those who say that our left would be moderate or conservative in the liberal democracies of Western Europe, which if true just goes to show how radically left-wing the political centers of those countries truly are.

[villalobos]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

I was hoping this topic would come up. Those who say there's no real left-wing in American politics are deluded. First of all, there are leftists in Congress, which is borne out even by that site, and if you compare their agenda to BHO you see there isn't much difference at all. BHO is a leftist who wants to come off as a moderate to get elected. He talks about tax cuts when what he really means is welfare for the bottom and tax increases for the middle class. There are those who say that our left would be moderate or conservative in the liberal democracies of Western Europe, which if true just goes to show how radically left-wing the political centers of those countries truly are.

Or it shows how radically right-wing the US is. It's a matter of referential. Which explains also why Us politicians come up as so rightist and non-libertarians in this british test.

[OreoCookie]

Radical left-wing non-sense, schmon-sense, that's rhetoric from Fox News. I doubt most Americans have even seen a real radical left-wing country/socialist country in their lifetimes.

Back on topic: I was surprised by the lack of libertarians. Even people who are self-professed libertarians of sorts haven't scored too far down … 

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Radical left-wing non-sense, schmon-sense, that's rhetoric from Fox News. I doubt most Americans have even seen a real radical left-wing country/socialist country in their lifetimes.

You are entitled to your opinion, although given your compass score you may have trouble seeing things the way they truly are. I think it's interesting that self-professed moderates score far more to the left than they would otherwise claim to. I also find it interesting that I score more moderately than those who call me extremist.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Back on topic: I was surprised by the lack of libertarians. Even people who are self-professed libertarians of sorts haven't scored too far down … 

The questions aren't really biased towards libertarianism. They assume that libertarianism is actually anarcho-capitalism. Which, of course, it isn't.

[Big Mac]

That's true, Doofy.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by villalobos 

Sure does. It's called compassionate libertarian. :-)

Nope. Can't exist. It's no good having the freedom to do something if you haven't got the freedom to earn the money to pay for doing that something.

The "compassionate libertarian" gives money to charity and helps others of his own free will. Whereas the green section in this compass is the government making the individual help others. Which, of course, isn't libertarian at all.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

I think it's interesting that self-professed moderates score far more to the left than they would otherwise claim to.

Who is a self-professed moderate that turned out to be a left-leaning libertarian? At least I have never claimed to be anything. If you dig through my posting history, you'll find that I've said quite a few times that I'm generally opposed to any simplistic labelling.

Originally Posted by Doofy 

The questions aren't really biased towards libertarianism. They assume that libertarianism is actually anarcho-capitalism. Which, of course, it isn't.

I think you're taking this a little too seriously. It's a little fun test, sure, but if it is biased (or rather: adapted), then it is adapted towards American politics.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I think you're taking this a little too seriously.

Right, remind me to pepper my posts with thousands of smileys in future.

Unless it's boobs or bullion, I'm not taking it seriously. Fact.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Nope. Can't exist. It's no good having the freedom to do something if you haven't got the freedom to earn the money to pay for doing that something.

Anarchy (I think you called it minarchy ) is not freedom.
It's just a difference in opinion what `common services' are that the state is responsible for (I've taken that quote from the thread on Libertarians). In Western (and Eastern) Europe, it includes health care. That's why we have a smaller militaries than the US. In the US, it doesn't.

Also, even though this six-page test says that I have a larger overlap with Libertarian ideas than you do, my motivation doesn't come from Libertarianism (because this is an American notion).

[Big Mac]

Those on the left who refer to themselves as libertarian must only be talking about libertarianism on the social side. If you're generally a proponent of substantial governmental control and taxation, you shouldn't be considered libertarian.

[villalobos]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Those on the left who refer to themselves as libertarian must only be talking about libertarianism on the social side. If you're generally a proponent of substantial governmental control and taxation, you shouldn't be considered libertarian.

Whatever you wanna call it, if that makes me be on the side of people like Gandhi or the Dalai-Lama (or the perceptions of what some people think they would answer), I am ok with that.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Anarchy (I think you called it minarchy ) is not freedom.

Minarchy is not anarchy. Go look it up.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

That's why we have a smaller militaries than the US. In the US, it doesn't.

I thought we had smaller militaries than the US because we don't need 'em to be large on account of the fact that we're harder. You know, couple of Millwall fans taking out a ranger platoon, that kind of thing.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Also, even though this six-page test says that I have a larger overlap with Libertarian ideas than you do, my motivation doesn't come from Libertarianism (because this is an American notion).

Libertarianism is an American notion? News to me. I always figured that it's the natural state of mankind before we allow idiots to tell us what to do.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by villalobos 

Whatever you wanna call it, if that makes me be on the side of people like Gandhi or the Dalai-Lama (or the perceptions of what some people think they would answer), I am ok with that.

The Dalai Lama is against the bum fun. How does that fit in with where they've put him? Technically, he should be north of Mrs Thatcher, since Thatch actually voted in favour of gay marriage back in the late 70s.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Those on the left who refer to themselves as libertarian must only be talking about libertarianism on the social side. If you're generally a proponent of substantial governmental control and taxation, you shouldn't be considered libertarian.

You're jumping conclusions here.
Other than the chart, you have no information on what my opinions are. Unless you go back and sift through the threads.

My two basic principles are:
(1) As simple as possible, as complicated as necessary.
(2) Long-term sustainability.

The first one comes from physics, actually. The second principle implies that you need to tax as much as you need to cover the expenses for the services which you deem necessary (e. g. emergency responders, roads), but not more. If you tax too little, the system is not sustainable in the long-term. If you tax too much, you hinder economic development. Ditto for regulations and other things.

If you go back to one of the banking crisis threads, I've written that the main reason I'm opposed to `no/even less regulations' is because politicians of all couleur cannot resist to bail out the banks instead of letting market forces remedy the problem.

Now, the apparent `left wing shift' of Europe or Canada compared to the US is that people in Europe have a different opinion on what services the government should provide.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Minarchy is not anarchy. Go look it up.

It was a joke.

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Libertarianism is an American notion? News to me. I always figured that it's the natural state of mankind before we allow idiots to tell us what to do.

The word itself is used in America the most. I've learnt it while I was in the US, although the idea wasn't foreign to me
In Germany, you'd call it `liberal.' Here, the German version of `neo-cons' are called `neo-liberals,' although to be fair, the association is mostly made regarding economic policies.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

It was a joke.

I thought we'd already established that all jokes should be accompanied by at least five smileys?

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

The word itself is used in America the most. I've learnt it while I was in the US, although the idea wasn't foreign to me

Of course, the word is of US origin. The concept isn't, as you yourself state.

I believe that the original term "liberal" has been corrupted over time by the rotting corpse of Marx and those subscribing to it have gradually drifted into statism, which is why we needed a new term for it.
And this is also happening with "libertarian", with folks such as Chomksy and Konkin polluting the term.

[RAILhead]

[TETENAL]

So it seems whether we are economically left or right, we Mac users are so far all socially liberal.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

I thought we'd already established that all jokes should be accompanied by at least five smileys?

Will do

Originally Posted by Doofy 

I believe that the original term "liberal" has been corrupted over time by the rotting corpse of Marx and those subscribing to it have gradually drifted into statism, which is why we needed a new term for it.

This may be true for America (in Germany, at least, the meaning hasn't changed much).
The same is true for `left' and `right', but `left' in particular. Both are overused and if they are used, then usually with a negative connotation. In the end, those words are used as insults against people who are of a different opinion than oneself. Especially since the political spectrum isn't one- or two-dimensional.

In the US, this isn't as apparent. Last month, there were state-wide elections and you could choose among all sorts of parties: a sort of `more conservative green party' (ÖDP), the Violets (which are a `spiritual party' of sorts, haven't heard of them before), the Pink Party (Rosa Liste, party for gay rights, which wasn't up for election, they don't have a state-wide list), the Grey Panthers (party for old people), Party of Bible-loving Christians (somewhat funnier translation of `Partei bibeltreuer Christen'), etc. Of course, most of these parties are completely irrelevant from the point of view that they are not present in parliaments.

But in some cases, a small party manages to inject something into mainstream politics (in Germany, the Green Party has managed to put the protection of the environment onto the table; it has since become a central cornerstone of every major party). Protection of the environment is really not so much a question of political parties anymore. I think that's a major disadvantage the US has: emerging topics have a harder time to become main stream.

[andi*pandi]

where libertarian and left have common ideas is in personal freedoms. Right to choose, right to be gay, non-discrimination, legal marijuana, etc.

Oh, almost forgot, civil liberties.

[badidea]

mine

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

I was hoping this topic would come up. Those who say there's no real left-wing in American politics are deluded. First of all, there are leftists in Congress, which is borne out even by that site, and if you compare their agenda to BHO you see there isn't much difference at all. BHO is a leftist who wants to come off as a moderate to get elected. He talks about tax cuts when what he really means is welfare for the bottom and tax increases for the middle class. There are those who say that our left would be moderate or conservative in the liberal democracies of Western Europe, which if true just goes to show how radically left-wing the political centers of those countries truly are.

Have you ever traveled outside of your country? You don't have to go any further than Canada to realize that our version of the left is what many countries would consider Conservative. Seriously.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

where libertarian and left have common ideas is in personal freedoms. Right to choose, right to be gay, non-discrimination, legal marijuana, etc.

Oh, almost forgot, civil liberties.

Civil liberties and personal freedom until someone decides they want two Ferraris.

[ort888]

[osiris]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Have you ever traveled outside of your country? You don't have to go any further than Canada to realize that our version of the left is what many countries would consider Conservative. Seriously.

minez:

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Have you ever traveled outside of your country? You don't have to go any further than Canada to realize that our version of the left is what many countries would consider Conservative. Seriously.

I think I said that already in my previous post. I suppose then that a Constitutionally-based United States would seem way, way, out to the right to much of the world.

[Eug]

Heh. I read the title as "political dumbasses".

My compass:



Nah, just kidding.

[ort888]

Here's a picture of stupendousman's compass.

[Eug]

The website puts him (Bush, not stupendousman) at about here:

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Have you ever traveled outside of your country? You don't have to go any further than Canada to realize that our version of the left is what many countries would consider Conservative. Seriously.

That website claims our Prime Minister, Stephen Harper, is about here:

[Chuckit]

Me:


I thought I'd be just a little further downward, but I guess my belief that monopolies actually can stifle competition makes me a bit authoritarian or something. It's basically what I expected.

[SpaceMonkey]

Mine:



I feel so reasonable.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

I was hoping this topic would come up. Those who say there's no real left-wing in American politics are deluded. First of all, there are leftists in Congress, which is borne out even by that site, and if you compare their agenda to BHO you see there isn't much difference at all. BHO is a leftist who wants to come off as a moderate to get elected. He talks about tax cuts when what he really means is welfare for the bottom and tax increases for the middle class. There are those who say that our left would be moderate or conservative in the liberal democracies of Western Europe, which if true just goes to show how radically left-wing the political centers of those countries truly are.

"Left" and "Right" are highly relative to where you are positioned on the spectrum. There is no defined point where conservatism ends and socialism begins. I can be left of you and still be right of someone else. It just so happens that in American politics, your left-most party is still right of almost every other country's right-most party.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

"Left" and "Right" are highly relative to where you are positioned on the spectrum. There is no defined point where conservatism ends and socialism begins. I can be left of you and still be right of someone else. It just so happens that in American politics, your left-most party is still right of almost every other country's right-most party.

That statement is often repeated, but isn't really true.

The stance on same sex marriage for the Democrats is one such example.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Eug 

That statement is often repeated, but isn't really true.

The stance on same sex marriage for the Democrats is one such example.

How so? There are clearly people throughout the political spectrum that are both opposed to, supportive of, or indifferent about same-sex marriage. Many fiscal conservatives couldn't care one way or the other about same-sex marriage. Some Christian churches embrace it. Some liberals oppose it.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

How so? There are clearly people throughout the political spectrum that are both opposed to, supportive of, or indifferent about same-sex marriage. Many fiscal conservatives couldn't care one way or the other about same-sex marriage. Some Christian churches embrace it. Some liberals oppose it.

The Democrats lean toward supporting it. The Canadian CPC leans towards opposing it, but were overruled by the courts.

Personally I think ideologically the US Democrats are not very left by Canadian standards, but in general are not as right leaning as the CPC.

[subego]

I'm usually lower down.

I'm cranky, so everyones' civil liberties are going to have to suffer today.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Eug 

The Democrats lean toward supporting it. The Canadian CPC leans towards opposing it, but were overruled by the courts.

Personally I think ideologically the US Democrats are not very left by Canadian standards, but in general are not as right leaning as the CPC.

Well, you're talking about political bodies. I'm talking about individuals. Not every individual supports every single position of the party they support. A classic example is the difference between social and fiscal conservatives being embodied in one party.

The Canadian Conservative Party likes to think of itself as very right leaning, but it keeps on having to lean left to get votes.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Well, you're talking about political bodies. I'm talking about individuals.

Yes I was talking about political bodies. That was the context of the original discussion. It was a direct response to this post:

It just so happens that in American politics, your left-most party is still right of almost every other country's right-most party.

That statement is often repeated, with no real justification for doing so.

I think the only reasonable statement one can make here is that the main "left" party of the US is less left than the left of some other countries. However, it's simply wrong to claim that the main "left" party of the US is more right than everyone else's right parties.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I think the only reasonable statement one can make here is that the main "left" party of the US is less left than the left of some other countries. However, it's simply wrong to claim that the main "left" party of the US is more right than everyone else's right parties.

Agreed.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I think the only reasonable statement one can make here is that the main "left" party of the US is less left than the left of some other countries. However, it's simply wrong to claim that the main "left" party of the US is more right than everyone else's right parties.

I'd agree with you from a socially conservative perspective. Relative to the Canadian Conservative party I'd say the American Democratic party is far more fiscally conservative and more supportive of a free-market economy (for all that the Canadian Conservative likes to talk about it, they don't really walk the walk)