[vtboyarc]

what on earth does that mean, new seed soon??? whats on the 17th???

[vtboyarc]

what on earth does that mean, new seed soon? I'm confused. is leopard coming early?

[vtboyarc]

I'm talking about the last post on page 23 of this thread

[analogika]

It's referring to the post just above it.

A "seed" is a version of unreleased software sent out to developers for testing.

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by vtboyarc 

what on earth does that mean, new seed soon??? whats on the 17th???

Nothing. They just want your opinion before a general staff meeting after the 17th.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Ok so iLife 08 uses the iTunes scroll bars so we can pretty much bet all of 10.5 will use them also.

Hopefully we will have the option to have the double scroll on BOTH ends instead of just one like we used to be able to..

If it's hard coded, that really goes against Apple's own guidlines.



I'd love to have my double arrow on both ends back in my iTunes. But I do love the new bars.

[JLL]

You mean that there are still people out there clicking on those scroll arrows?

[Chuckit]

Yeah, I'd like an option to do away with the arrows altogether. I don't use them at all.

[Kevin]

Cause having options is bad. And OS preferences is all about one person.

I use them a lot. And it looks more consistent.

[JLL]

Get a mouse with a scroll wheel

[Kevin]

I have one.

[JLL]

And you find it easier to navigate to the scroll arrows?

[Art Vandelay]

As reported on MacRumors, etc... 9a500n has been seeded.

I'm curious about the build number. What does the 'n' signify? Why only one build higher than a nearly one month old previous build? Or is this the "nth" build of 9a500 which would be about right for a month's time.

[0157988944]

CALLED IT.

but then it wasn't a hard call.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by JLL 

And you find it easier to navigate to the scroll arrows?

Nope. But i have on occasion used the arrows for specific things. And i'd like for them to be the closest to wherever my mouse is.

If anything the arrows should have been on the top and ends.

OR lets get rid of them all together.

[PaperNotes]

I don't understand the point of scroll bars anymore. Should just have a direction indicator that says there's more document to see by using the scrolling features in mice and trackpads.

[cybergoober]

Yeah, screw the people who use older laptops…

[0157988944]

Ba dum-bum... KSSH!

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

I don't understand the point of scroll bars anymore. Should just have a direction indicator that says there's more document to see by using the scrolling features in mice and trackpads.

Scroll bars indicate how much of the document you can see in the window.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Scroll bars indicate how much of the document you can see in the window.

*and* your relative position within the document.

Even the iPhone shows scroll bars as soon as you actually start scrolling for that exact purpose - reference.

[silver]

Hi All,
Just came from my buddies work place in town, and he showed me the latest build of Leopard 9A500n as of this morning.

Could we be nearing the final of Leopard? I hope not, as the build they where using still has many bugs. i.e In coverlook the icons all have a white background behind them, looks like a sheet of paper behind each icon.


silver

[Kevin]

Those white background behind them just indicate folders and apps with debug code still in them. So obviously the person didn't have 9A500m that has all debug code removed. And IS the Golden Master.

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by analogika 

*and* your relative position within the document.

Even the iPhone shows scroll bars as soon as you actually start scrolling for that exact purpose - reference.

A floating semi-transparent thumbnail (similar or exactly like Photoshop's navigator pane) which automatically appears and disappears when a document opens or scrolling is used could replace scrollbars. Whenever I see a pro use Photoshop they use the keyboard or trackpad drag/wacom with drag shortcut/mouse drag or the navigator to move around the document. Never see them use the scroll bars. It could be a much more attractive and usable replacement along with other forms of similar overlays.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

A floating semi-transparent thumbnail (similar or exactly like Photoshop's navigator pane) which automatically appears and disappears when a document opens or scrolling is used could replace scrollbars.

The iPhone fades in translucent grey scrollbars the second I start scrolling, so that I can see where in the document I am and how much of it I'm seeing.

I rather like that.

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by analogika 

The iPhone fades in translucent grey scrollbars the second I start scrolling, so that I can see where in the document I am and how much of it I'm seeing.

I rather like that.

And Leopard makes it easy for devs to make all their apps fullscreen. In fullscreen mode the scroll bars only appear when the mouse cursor moves or moves to the scroll bar. Cleaner interface is getting there.

[analogika]

Ack.

I sincerely hope that fullscreen mode is actively discouraged.

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Ack.

I sincerely hope that fullscreen mode is actively discouraged.

Where have you been? It's fantastic. Photoshop has had an almost fullscreen mode for years. There are plenty of good apps coming that use it like Scrivener which has very positive reviews. In the future it will make sense when you see how far multi-touch can be taken.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Ack.

I sincerely hope that fullscreen mode is actively discouraged.

I like fullscreen in QuickTime Player, iTunes, and in iPhoto editing. I wished Google Earth had a fullscreen mode like it does on Windows.

Why should it be actively discouraged? I see no reason for that.

[analogika]

I have absolutely no problem with fullscreen mode where it's appropriate and makes sense.

Obviously video is one such thing.

Text documents, email and internet surfing - no. Having the screen depth and layered windows is integral to the drag-and-drop ethic at the basis of the Mac interface. Unnecessary full-screen mode discourages users from trying it.

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Text documents, email and internet surfing - no. Having the screen depth and layered windows is integral to the drag-and-drop ethic at the basis of the Mac interface. Unnecessary full-screen mode discourages users from trying it.

Try the Scrivener demo. You'll see how fullscreen mode works well for text editing.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Text documents, email and internet surfing - no. Having the screen depth and layered windows is integral to the drag-and-drop ethic at the basis of the Mac interface. Unnecessary full-screen mode discourages users from trying it.

E-Mail maybe not necessarily.

But I often wished Preview had better fullscreen for PDF (currently it only does full page which leaves black borders at the side and isn't as big as it could be) for reading text documents. It's a nice and non-distracting way to read texts. You don't need drag and drop when reading a PDF.

And a proper fullscreen in Safari that also scales up the web page (to not leave unnecessary blank space at the sides) would be appreciated as well. I often times use screen zooming to zoom into a web page for that, but it's a hackish workaround that reduces text sharpness. Again, I don't need drag and drop to read the news or this forum for that matter.

A proper fullscreen mode can be useful for a lot of applications.

[analogika]

PaperNotes:

Re: Scrivener - Indeed.

Do it like that, and I agree completely.

There is no other word-processor that works like that, to my knowledge.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

And a proper fullscreen in Safari that also scales up the web page (to not leave unnecessary blank space at the sides) would be appreciated as well. I often times use screen zooming to zoom into a web page for that, but it's a hackish workaround that reduces text sharpness. Again, I don't need drag and drop to read the news or this forum for that matter.

No, but to drag a link, or an image, or a text snippet to the desktop - things I do all the time, even using this forum.

Extensive replies always get marked and dragged to the desktop as a text clipping before hitting the Submit button - never know when the database acts up and eats your work again.

[PaperNotes]

Every app could be a fullscreen app with floating panels and tool boxes that automatically appear or disappear when the cursor goes over a certain area of the screen. Use Exposé or the Dock to switch between them or to expose the desktop. It wouldn't be a problem selecting text or an image, dragging it to your Exposé hot corner and then dumping it on the desktop or in another app. That's exactly what you can do in iPhoto now. Menus and panels appear when the cursor touches the edge of the screen. You can drag photos to your desktop from the photo strip at the top, to your Exposé "Show Desktop" hot corner, and then dump the file on the desktop.

[Fusion]

Originally Posted by analogika 

No, but to drag a link, or an image, or a text snippet to the desktop - things I do all the time, even using this forum.

Extensive replies always get marked and dragged to the desktop as a text clipping before hitting the Submit button - never know when the database acts up and eats your work again.

Which is insanely easy to do, even in full screen apps. Set one of your corners to be a hot corner for Expose's show desktop mode. Grab what you want, drag it to the corner and drop to the desktop. Easy, functional, elegant and fluid. I use this even with apps not in fullscreen as usually there are other windows in the way anyway or my desktop is covered with Deskshade.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

Every app could be a fullscreen app with floating panels and tool boxes that automatically appear or disappear when the cursor goes over a certain area of the screen. Use Exposé or the Dock to switch between them or to expose the desktop. It wouldn't be a problem selecting text or an image, dragging it to your Exposé hot corner and then dumping it on the desktop or in another app. That's exactly what you can do in iPhoto now. Menus and panels appear when the cursor touches the edge of the screen. You can drag photos to your desktop from the photo strip at the top, to your Exposé "Show Desktop" hot corner, and then dump the file on the desktop.

Yes...it's possible now but unecessarily slower.

Not all apps make sense in fullscreen mode...especially so on 21"-30" monitors. You also wouldn't be able to keep track or multiple apps at the same time...I regularly watch EyeTV in one corner of the screen while doing other things in another corner.

Fullscreen should never be a feature offered by the OS...the developers should be free to decide whether they want to create a fullscreen interface for their apps and decide how they want to achieve it.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of apps that do benefit from being fullscreen get a nice fullscreen interface in Leopard considering CoreAnimation will allow them to do all sorts of crazy things.

edit: examples of apps where fullscreen makes no sense: Dictionary, iChat (unless you're video conferencing I suppose), word processing (unless you really don't want any distractions and you're writing a paper due tomorrow...but that's your problem ), Calculator, iTunes, Safari, System Prefs.

[cybergoober]

Plus some people find hot corners to be clumsy (or rather they're clumsy and they're constantly invoking the hot corners on accident).

[cybergoober]

In other news, macrumors is reporting Leopard build 9A527 has been seeded.

[Art Vandelay]

Downloading now. If only I could have downloaded it while at work. Ten minutes is much better than three hours.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Fusion 

Which is insanely easy to do, even in full screen apps. Set one of your corners to be a hot corner for Expose's show desktop mode. Grab what you want, drag it to the corner and drop to the desktop. Easy, functional, elegant and fluid.

I agree, and I do this now.

However, I'm a Mac geek and I know my way around the system. Hot corners are not active by default (nor should they be), and are not a suitable substitute for screen depth in a default setup.

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

Every app could be a fullscreen app with floating panels and tool boxes that automatically appear or disappear when the cursor goes over a certain area of the screen. Use Exposé or the Dock to switch between them or to expose the desktop. It wouldn't be a problem selecting text or an image, dragging it to your Exposé hot corner and then dumping it on the desktop or in another app. That's exactly what you can do in iPhoto now. Menus and panels appear when the cursor touches the edge of the screen.

Only in Edit mode, or in the slideshow, both of which make sense in full-screen mode.

Very few things make sense in full-screen mode. And yes, Exposé works, as does Cmd-Tab, for us geeks who know the system.

But a fundamental rule of interface design is that What Isn't Visible Doesn't Exist. Drag and drop don't work for average users if they cannot see both origin AND target.

Full-screen is a BAD THING™ - especially as default - for everything except those cases where it is actually useful.

And while your example of Scrivener is a good one for "full-screen" word-processing, I surely don't want that thing in full-screen on a 30" cinema display. Nor do I want it to blank out my second monitor in multi-monitor setups.

In fact, it is quite vital that Scrivener remain window-based, so that I can resize it to best suit my needs. On a single-monitor 13" MacBook setup, that will probably be as large a window as will fit on my screen.

The second I hook up an external monitor, though, that will change.

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

Yes...it's possible now but unecessarily slower.

Not all apps make sense in fullscreen mode...especially so on 21"-30" monitors. You also wouldn't be able to keep track or multiple apps at the same time...I regularly watch EyeTV in one corner of the screen while doing other things in another corner.

Fullscreen should never be a feature offered by the OS...the developers should be free to decide whether they want to create a fullscreen interface for their apps and decide how they want to achieve it.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of apps that do benefit from being fullscreen get a nice fullscreen interface in Leopard considering CoreAnimation will allow them to do all sorts of crazy things.

edit: examples of apps where fullscreen makes no sense: Dictionary, iChat (unless you're video conferencing I suppose), word processing (unless you really don't want any distractions and you're writing a paper due tomorrow...but that's your problem ), Calculator, iTunes, Safari, System Prefs.

Agreed entirely - with the reservation that Scrivener's approach to word processing does make some kind of sense in full-screen on a single-monitor set-up up to about 20" screens.

[Super Mario]

I hear the window traffic light widgets have changed in the latest Leopard as Paper Notes predicted in his prediction pastel thing thread.

Leopard's new default wallpaper is this...

[Super Mario]

Wallpaper is not bad folks. It looks good on my Tiger with Liger theme

[0157988944]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

Wallpaper is not bad folks. It looks good on my Tiger with Liger theme

How'd you change the dock? well, and everything else. did you do it manually, or with a theme?

[Super Mario]

It's Liger 1.6 theme. Download it from here

Liger by ~spiderlama on deviantART

The theme is for Shapeshifter. You also need ClearDock installed.

1. Disable Uno if you have it installed.
2. Use ClearDock to make the Dock invisible and set indicator color to white.
3. Open "Liger.guiKit" with Shapeshifter.
4. Choose one of three "Liger" themes, blue or brown icon set, and desktop picture.
5. Open "Liger.pkg" and follow instructions to install the 3D Dock and translucent menu bar.

The only app Liger theme doesn't work with right now is Safari 3 because it is still beta and doesn't always theme with Shapeshifter. Liger's author doesn't have time to complete the theme so if someone picks it up they can complete it to make Safari work with it.

[0157988944]

Cool. I'm just wondering, does anyone know where the dock files are so I could alter their
appearance?

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by adamfishercox 

Cool. I'm just wondering, does anyone know where the dock files are so I could alter their
appearance?

You can't create a 3D dock by changing the files in there. The 3D Dock is Open GL programming. In Leopard who can change the skin of the 3D Dock. In Tiger there's little you can do. ClearDock is your best choice for altering the appearance.

System>Library>CoreServices>Dock

It's a package. Back it up before you fiddle with it and if you do fiddle then fix permissions afterwards, then restart the Dock.

[0157988944]

I don't want to make a 3D dock, I just want to see what I can do with it.

[robshoy]

I'm quite fond of the new wallpaper, looks like a gigantic improvement over the Vista Grass, heh. But still, is a new wallpaper really enough of an update? Come on, what's really new in Leopard? The finder's nice, spaces is cool, time-machine is awesome, but other than that there's nothing really that the consumer will notice right away. And please, fix that damn transparent titlebar. -_-

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by robshoy 

And please, fix that damn transparent titlebar. -_-

The menubar is less transparent in the latest build and someone said it uses a CoreImage blur behind it. Read the discussion on macrumors. Someone should post shots soon.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by robshoy 

I'm quite fond of the new wallpaper, looks like a gigantic improvement over the Vista Grass, heh. But still, is a new wallpaper really enough of an update? Come on, what's really new in Leopard? The finder's nice, spaces is cool, time-machine is awesome, but other than that there's nothing really that the consumer will notice right away.

What the **** do you expect in a near-RC build? A 3D Finder with a dancing paperclip?