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Why Does Most Software Suck?
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freudling
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Aug 7, 2011, 02:47 AM
 
Seriously. Most software is garbage. After all these years, what Apps do people use most often? Productivity Apps, like a word processor, Email, Address Book, Calendar...

Most software outside this core blow. Bad. Can anyone offer really good software whose name isn't Apple? Or MS? Or Adobe?

Ya ya, 1Password and a few others are good, but that's it. And yes, MS has some good software.

For example, I've looked high and low for good project management and accounting software, and all of it sucks. All of it. And the stuff online is laughable. Even Freshbooks is a joke for any serious operation.

Terrible user-interfaces. Poor performance. Software blows bad.

iPad is a nice breath of fresh air though. I almost get depressed now when using my Mac.
     
hyteckit
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Aug 7, 2011, 03:36 AM
 
Because most good programmers are bad UI designers, and most good UI designers are bad programmers.

There are very few good programmers with an eye for good UI design.
I guess it's hard for a good UI designer and a good programmer to come together in agreement or a understand on how to integrate good design and functionality.

Check out macrabbit.com or panic.com. I purchased most of their apps.
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olePigeon
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Aug 7, 2011, 04:00 AM
 
Computers are fast and have lots of RAM, so companies focus on features instead of efficiency and stability. Marketing runs a company, not the engineers.
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Aug 7, 2011, 04:15 AM
 
Today I used Inkscape and I enjoyed it so much that I decided to complete the whole project in one sitting, instead of 2 like I had planned.
So, yay software.
     
freudling  (op)
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Aug 7, 2011, 04:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Because most good programmers are bad UI designers, and most good UI designers are bad programmers.

There are very few good programmers with an eye for good UI design.
I guess it's hard for a good UI designer and a good programmer to come together in agreement or a understand on how to integrate good design and functionality.
     
Doofy
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Aug 7, 2011, 06:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
iPad is a nice breath of fresh air though. I almost get depressed now when using my Mac.
You are insane. IOS is shite.

Actually, you've answered your own question here. More than likely, you like the iPad because it's new hotness. That's because geeks, riddled with ADHD, tend towards the new. Which is why software is shite - because everyone wants the new so fast that the development cycle is too short to fix problems in the current. Manpower is balanced more towards new features and "keeping up with the jonses" than perfecting existing product.

(Which is basically what olePig just said.)

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ghporter
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Aug 7, 2011, 10:04 AM
 
Software Engineering 101 includes as a core principle "talk to the users, not just the managers, about what the software needs to do and how it is used on a daily basis." This is also the most often skipped piece of the software engineering process.

I use a software package in a healthcare setting that is absolutely stupid in a lot of places. Instead of linking things together, such as data entered for a "current functional level" from an initial evaluation to the goal writing section, the therapist must rewrite that current level, both for a long term goal and a short term goal. See the duplication there? I type the same thing three times, instead of having the software use what I wrote the first time in the other two places-which are inextricably linked in the therapeutic process, just not in the software, so I spend more time typing than I should need to, and there's a potential for what I (or any therapist) types in one place to be slightly different from another, which could cause problems with implementing the treatment, billing, etc. The basic software is a big database application in the first place, so how hard should it be to flow a field in the assessment section into the goal section? Apparently too hard for the software writers... (Yes, I do it smart and copy/paste my entries, but I shouldn't have to-the software should populate the current level in the goals by itself.)

The package also offers lots of pre-written stuff to choose for the client's prior level, current level and goal levels, such as what sort of assistive device a person might use for dressing. Unfortunately, the geeks that wrote the thing couldn't be bothered to actually think about what they were putting into other places that assistive devices might be used; "self feeding" (getting the food from the plate to the mouth) might require assistive devices as well...but not a dressing stick or a long-handled bathing sponge, and the program offers exactly the same list of devices for self feeding that it does for dressing. This illustrates another place where the people who developed this package did not quite pay attention in class: the software needs to be useful, not just gee-whiz cool (which itself is debatable in any case).

So why is most software poorly produced poo? In a lot of cases, it's because it isn't built right from the start. You do not design a water faucet without knowing interface standards and conventions of use (pipe thread and connector standards, and "hot on the left, cold on the right" conventions, for example), but anyone who can type can write software that is completely unconnected with what the intended user might need. In first year programming class, it's fine to "just wing it" to see if you can actually get code to do anything you're required to get it to do, but for real world software, you FIRST need to know that you're going to be either helping or hindering someone in their job, so you need to know what they do and how they do it before you do anything about the interface or processes.

I think the real question should be "how do publishers manage to sell all this tripe in the first place," since so much of it certainly is tripe of the lowest grade...

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turtle777
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Aug 7, 2011, 10:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Most software outside this core blow. Bad. Can anyone offer really good software whose name isn't Apple? Or MS? Or Adobe?
.
OmniGroup makes some really good software.

But generally, I agree. A lot of SW sucks.

-t
     
Doofy
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Aug 7, 2011, 10:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
I think the real question should be "how do publishers manage to sell all this tripe in the first place," since so much of it certainly is tripe of the lowest grade...
Same reason Microsoft manage to sell copies of Windows - ignorance and low expectations on the part of the buyer.
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Doofy
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Aug 7, 2011, 10:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
OmniGroup makes some really good software.

But generally, I agree. A lot of SW sucks.
Oh come on - there's loads of good software for the Mac. Freud just has a case of "new-itus" by the sounds of it.

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Digital Performer.
Peak.
Transmit.
ColorSchemer Studio.
RapidWeaver.
HandBrake.
SiteSucker.
I could go on but you get the drift.
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Doofy
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Aug 7, 2011, 10:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
For example, I've looked high and low for good project management and accounting software, and all of it sucks. All of it.
QuickBooks for Windows. Doesn't suck.
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Aug 7, 2011, 10:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
You are insane. IOS is shite.

Actually, you've answered your own question here. More than likely, you like the iPad because it's new hotness. That's because geeks, riddled with ADHD, tend towards the new. Which is why software is shite - because everyone wants the new so fast that the development cycle is too short to fix problems in the current. Manpower is balanced more towards new features and "keeping up with the jonses" than perfecting existing product.

(Which is basically what olePig just said.)

Exactly, and in fact software on iOS is even more pile of dung than Mac software, not least because it is made as by a one-man operation in his mother's basement, solely to get rich quick and then move on to the next thing. Granted iOS apps have lifted finger-painting apps to hights never before seen, and certainly there are now amazingly many apps to check the weather or convert units - but the amount of good apps on iOS is very very low compared to good apps on the Macintosh.

@freudling:

To me it sounds amazingly bizarro-world-ish that someone complains about software on the Mac and then praises the higher powers that at least he has the iPad!
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voodoo
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Aug 7, 2011, 10:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Software Engineering 101 includes as a core principle "talk to the users, not just the managers, about what the software needs to do and how it is used on a daily basis." This is also the most often skipped piece of the software engineering process.
And more than a little bit ironically (this being an Apple related forum), this is the most often skipped piece of the software engineering process by Apple.
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Wiskedjak
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Aug 7, 2011, 11:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Because most good programmers are bad UI designers, and most good UI designers are bad programmers.

There are very few good programmers with an eye for good UI design.
I guess it's hard for a good UI designer and a good programmer to come together in agreement or a understand on how to integrate good design and functionality.

Check out macrabbit.com or panic.com. I purchased most of their apps.
This.

You need a development team where the UI designers and programmers work closely together. I like to believe that I work in such a team; I include the programmers in all brainstorming and user research sessions so they can provide input in the design and understand the user needs. In turn, they include me in their technical architecture discussions so I can understand the issues they're dealing with.

But, I'm not a dictatorial designer. I'm willing to compromise on designs that I don't feel are crucial, which buys me credit with the programmers in the designs that I DO feel are crucial. Also, if the design is too difficult to implement, when I explain what I'm trying to achieve, the programmers are very good at helping us find a solution that is good design AND practical to implement.
     
freudling  (op)
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Aug 7, 2011, 11:55 AM
 
To me iOS and OS X are the same situation. Most of the Apps are crap with just a few good ones. Apple's productivity Apps are consistently in the top 20 on iTunes. I like the iPad because it's simple.

Pages, Numbers, and Keynote are great. But so many Apps I've downloaded just blow. Reeder is one of the few I actually use.
     
Doofy
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Aug 7, 2011, 12:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Apple's productivity Apps are consistently in the top 20 on iTunes.
Who'd have thought that the "house" software would somehow be in the top 20?
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freudling  (op)
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Aug 7, 2011, 12:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Who'd have thought that the "house" software would somehow be in the top 20?
     
Doofy
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Aug 7, 2011, 12:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Really?
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Aug 7, 2011, 01:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
To me it sounds amazingly bizarro-world-ish that someone complains about software on the Mac and then praises the higher powers that at least he has the iPad!
-1, Troll.

iPad is literally a WORLD ahead of Macintosh in user interface.

That its functionality isn't adequate for your needs is irrelevant to the quality of its interface.
     
besson3c
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Aug 7, 2011, 01:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
-1, Troll.

Why? I say that the problem lies with anybody who is personally bothered by criticism of any company.

Apple is just a company, not a philosophy or some sort of personal religion.
     
Doofy
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Aug 7, 2011, 02:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
iPad is literally a WORLD ahead of Macintosh in user interface.
Which world? Mars or Venus?
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voodoo
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Aug 7, 2011, 02:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
-1, Troll.

iPad is literally a WORLD ahead of Macintosh in user interface.

That its functionality isn't adequate for your needs is irrelevant to the quality of its interface.
I wasn't even talking about the UI, perhaps the troll just lives in your head.. and indeed, in what world is the iOS UI so wonderful? I'm sure you're writing your posts on your iPad? No, you're not.
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subego
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Aug 7, 2011, 02:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Oh come on - there's loads of good software for the Mac. Freud just has a case of "new-itus" by the sounds of it.

Coda.
SubEthaEdit.
CSSEdit.
Digital Performer.
Peak.
Transmit.
ColorSchemer Studio.
RapidWeaver.
HandBrake.
SiteSucker.
I could go on but you get the drift.
Quick threadjack.

Where would you put Logic Studio on the suck continuum? I imagine you have an opinion.
     
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Aug 7, 2011, 02:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
To me iOS and OS X are the same situation. Most of the Apps are crap with just a few good ones. Apple's productivity Apps are consistently in the top 20 on iTunes. I like the iPad because it's simple.

Pages, Numbers, and Keynote are great. But so many Apps I've downloaded just blow. Reeder is one of the few I actually use.
Somehow, I suspect Apple's apps would be in the Top 20 even if they had zero sales.
     
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Aug 7, 2011, 02:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Quick threadjack.

Where would you put Logic Studio on the suck continuum? I imagine you have an opinion.
Hmmm. It's OK if you're not using MIDI, but pretty crap if you are. Timing issues and all that. Some features good (like quickswipe comping) but in general I reckon you're better off with DP or the limited feature set of Pro Tools. Now PT has gone native, I'm contemplating the switch to that.
Rest of the "Studio" package really not worth the bother - much better dedicated options for doing the tasks the other bits do.
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besson3c
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Aug 7, 2011, 02:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
I wasn't even talking about the UI, perhaps the troll just lives in your head.. and indeed, in what world is the iOS UI so wonderful? I'm sure you're writing your posts on your iPad? No, you're not.

Maybe there is a terminology barrier here, because if he is not writing his posts on his iPad it would have absolutely nothing to do with UI. Maybe you should share your definition of what UI entails?
     
subego
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Aug 7, 2011, 03:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Hmmm. It's OK if you're not using MIDI, but pretty crap if you are. Timing issues and all that. Some features good (like quickswipe comping) but in general I reckon you're better off with DP or the limited feature set of Pro Tools. Now PT has gone native, I'm contemplating the switch to that.
Rest of the "Studio" package really not worth the bother - much better dedicated options for doing the tasks the other bits do.
Copy that. Thanks!
     
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Aug 7, 2011, 03:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Which world? Mars or Venus?
Uranus.

Slick shoes?! Are you crazy?!
     
Doofy
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Aug 7, 2011, 03:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Copy that. Thanks!
Nay worries.
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besson3c
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Aug 7, 2011, 03:11 PM
 
Doofy, what is your opinion of the Apple "Grab" utility?
     
voodoo
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Aug 7, 2011, 03:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Maybe there is a terminology barrier here, because if he is not writing his posts on his iPad it would have absolutely nothing to do with UI. Maybe you should share your definition of what UI entails?
Probably is a terminology barrier here.

Don't worry about it Besson, a good UI or even one good on another world, is the one which one would choose to work on and work with. Having the choice between a device with a worse UI, and one with a better UI, one would choose the one with the better UI at all times.

That's why I went with a Mac in the first place.
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Aug 7, 2011, 03:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Why? I say that the problem lies with anybody who is personally bothered by criticism of any company.

Apple is just a company, not a philosophy or some sort of personal religion.
Ah yes, when in doubt, paint poster as fanb0i. That works every time.
     
besson3c
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Aug 7, 2011, 03:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Probably is a terminology barrier here.

Don't worry about it Besson, a good UI or even one good on another world, is the one which one would choose to work on and work with. Having the choice between a device with a worse UI, and one with a better UI, one would choose the one with the better UI at all times.

That's why I went with a Mac in the first place.

That's a ridiculous statement.

There are different devices for different purposes. That I would choose to type up a big document on my laptop rather than my iPhone doesn't mean that there is something wrong with the iPhone, it means that the iPhone's screen is tiny.
     
besson3c
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Aug 7, 2011, 03:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Ah yes, when in doubt, paint poster as fanb0i. That works every time.

There was no doubt involved. You seem to be at least a bit of a fanboy, but that was not the issue I had. I think what voodoo wrote was not trolling.

I suppose I could turn the tables though, and say "when it doubt call the person you disagree with a troll"
     
subego
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Aug 7, 2011, 04:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
I wasn't even talking about the UI, perhaps the troll just lives in your head.. and indeed, in what world is the iOS UI so wonderful? I'm sure you're writing your posts on your iPad? No, you're not.
I write 98% of my posts on my iPhone. In some ways, it's better than the full-blown Mac OS, in others, it's not.
     
voodoo
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Aug 7, 2011, 04:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
That's a ridiculous statement.

There are different devices for different purposes. That I would choose to type up a big document on my laptop rather than my iPhone doesn't mean that there is something wrong with the iPhone, it means that the iPhone's screen is tiny.
Not at all, your statement is ridiculous. Either a UI is superior or it isn't. A huge iMac running iOS would be just as inferior as an iPad. Regardless, Apple disagrees, and sells word processing apps for the iPad, ostensibly because it's so great to type up a big document on that superior UI (see Spheric's definition on superior UI)

And nobody mentioned and iPhone. How straw-man-y of you.
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Aug 7, 2011, 04:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I write 98% of my posts on my iPhone. In some ways, it's better than the full-blown Mac OS, in others, it's not.
Cool, but the claim wasn't so reasonable, it was that "iPad is literally a WORLD ahead of Macintosh in user interface."

Which is, quite literally, a pile of dung. In some things, perhaps it is better, and in others: no way.
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Aug 7, 2011, 04:14 PM
 
Even the much vaunted 1Password is pretty lousy. It keeps prompting me to save new credentials for the same credentials on the same site. I gave up on it after 2 months.
     
besson3c
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Aug 7, 2011, 04:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Not at all, your statement is ridiculous. Either a UI is superior or it isn't. A huge iMac running iOS would be just as inferior as an iPad. Regardless, Apple disagrees, and sells word processing apps for the iPad, ostensibly because it's so great to type up a big document on that superior UI (see Spheric's definition on superior UI)

And nobody mentioned and iPhone. How straw-man-y of you.

I thought we were going to have a reasonable discussion here, but I guess not?

Reread my post and the part of yours that I quoted and you'll understand why I brought up the iPhone. I'm not disputing your opinion of iOS vs. OS X, that is your opinion, but the idea that good UI is the UI that people want to use all the time is just dumb. Since you didn't take to the iPhone example, here's another... My stove has a pretty good UI, but it doesn't mean that I want to use my stove all the time over my microwave. Point being, the device the UI is designed for does matter.
     
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Aug 7, 2011, 04:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Cool, but the claim wasn't so reasonable, it was that "iPad is literally a WORLD ahead of Macintosh in user interface."

Which is, quite literally, a pile of dung. In some things, perhaps it is better, and in others: no way.

And in others: it is hard to make direct comparisons because iOS is designed for touch devices including the very tiny iPhone screen.
     
subego
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Aug 7, 2011, 04:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Cool, but the claim wasn't so reasonable, it was that "iPad is literally a WORLD ahead of Macintosh in user interface."

Which is, quite literally, a pile of dung.
I agree, but so is the notion the OS is so problematic no one would use it to do things like post.
     
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Aug 7, 2011, 04:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I agree, but so is the notion the OS is so problematic no one would use it to do things like post.

I sort of agree with Spheric, but probably not to the point where I'd want to generalize like he has.

What I mean is that often times the iOS versions of software provide software makers the opportunity to wipe the slate clean and revamp the UI to focus on the most important elements. Sometimes extra clutter and extraneous features can be a hinderance. The result is that if these particular features implemented in the iOS versions of these apps cater to your needs, they can be superior to you. If they are missing features you need, obviously they are inferior.

iOS versions of apps are often similar to lite versions you'd find on the desktop OS, although ones that force being streamlined to work better on these devices in comparison to lite versions of stuff on desktop OSes which are often exactly identical but with some missing icons and menu items.
     
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Aug 7, 2011, 04:45 PM
 
Re: the world of difference

People really aren't getting that iOS just threw overboard a handful of fundamentals and abstractions that the last 25 years of computing were based upon?

I suppose it's less obvious than the command-line to window-menu-mouse interface, because it's still a graphical interface - and even less obvious to the people constantly dissing iPads as crap or toys, because they're obviously not actually using them.

You'd think that a year and thirty million iPads later, they'd figure that they're just missing the point, no?


At any rate: I was talking about the end-user perspective, which is, in fact, dictated largely by the interface.
     
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Aug 7, 2011, 04:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I sort of agree with Spheric, but probably not to the point where I'd want to generalize like he has.

What I mean is that often times the iOS versions of software provide software makers the opportunity to wipe the slate clean and revamp the UI to focus on the most important elements. Sometimes extra clutter and extraneous features can be a hinderance. The result is that if these particular features implemented in the iOS versions of these apps cater to your needs, they can be superior to you. If they are missing features you need, obviously they are inferior.

iOS versions of apps are often similar to lite versions you'd find on the desktop OS, although ones that force being streamlined to work better on these devices in comparison to lite versions of stuff on desktop OSes which are often exactly identical but with some missing icons and menu items.
I would agree with that, and also add that since places like the iOS are where things are going, it's not an unreasonable assumption it will be light-years ahead at some point. It already has the clarly visible infrastructure for it.

Posted from my iPhone, in the garage, while I have a smoky-treat (not to be confused with a Scooby snack).
     
subego
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Aug 7, 2011, 04:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Re: the world of difference

People really aren't getting that iOS just threw overboard a handful of fundamentals and abstractions that the last 25 years of computing were based upon?

I suppose it's less obvious than the command-line to window-menu-mouse interface, because it's still a graphical interface - and even less obvious to the people constantly dissing iPads as crap or toys, because they're obviously not actually using them.

You'd think that a year and thirty million iPads later, they'd figure that they're just missing the point, no?


At any rate: I was talking about the end-user perspective, which is, in fact, dictated largely by the interface.
The analogy I was thinking was OS9 and the early (admittedly problematic) iterations of OSX.

The writing was on the ****ing wall.


Edit: just to brush against the thread topic for a second... most things suck, why should software be different?
     
besson3c
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Aug 7, 2011, 04:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Posted from my iPhone, in the garage, while I have a smoky-treat (not to be confused with a Scooby snack).
Smoking is bad for your health, and it is also the leading cause of forest fires.
     
subego
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Aug 7, 2011, 05:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
and it is also the leading cause of forest fires.
I only have chemicals and solvents in my garage. No forests, so there's nothing to worry about.
     
besson3c
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Aug 7, 2011, 05:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I only have chemicals and solvents in my garage. No forests, so there's nothing to worry about.

I don't understand why people are so worried about forests anyway, everybody knows that steel is stronger than wood. Wood is obsolete.
     
voodoo
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Aug 7, 2011, 05:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I thought we were going to have a reasonable discussion here, but I guess not?

Reread my post and the part of yours that I quoted and you'll understand why I brought up the iPhone. I'm not disputing your opinion of iOS vs. OS X, that is your opinion, but the idea that good UI is the UI that people want to use all the time is just dumb. Since you didn't take to the iPhone example, here's another... My stove has a pretty good UI, but it doesn't mean that I want to use my stove all the time over my microwave. Point being, the device the UI is designed for does matter.
A reasonable discussion is automatically dismissed when your reply starts with the words "That's a ridiculous statement."

Furthermore cancelled by " the idea that good UI is the UI that people want to use all the time is just dumb."

I get what you're saying, but I don't agree with your premise, that an iOS device is inherently different from a PC. A microwave is different from a stove. I'm saying you're going to want to use the stove with the UI that "is literally a WORLD ahead of [other stove] in user interface."

The phrase I don't agree with is "the iPad literally a WORLD ahead of Macintosh in user interface." Besides, the form factor is an inherent part of the UI, it's more than just what you see on the screen and how you interact with the screen.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
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Aug 7, 2011, 05:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I agree, but so is the notion the OS is so problematic no one would use it to do things like post.
Never said it was. Just pointing out how unreasonable the statement "the iPad is literally a WORLD ahead of Macintosh in user interface." - the iOS is not that problematic, but it isn't up to scratch for most people to use to type with. I notice your posts are quite short. Not unexpected, since you type on an iOS device, because (as you and I both know) typing any considerable length of text isn't all that convenient on an iOS device.

It's neat to use, but it's UI isn't literally a WORLD ahead of Macintosh in user interface. That's all.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
 
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