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The Case Against Trump: Restocking swamp gators!
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subego
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Jul 25, 2016, 02:30 AM
 
Here's the problem I have generating it. With almost everything I come up with I can see a comparable strain in Hillary.

My fundamental problem with Trump is how ****ing petty he is about things. Then I think about Hillary. You know, she's pretty damn petty herself, she just keeps it behind-the-scenes.

Trump's first post-convention ad was a pretty astonishing ego stroke. It listed how long the speech was, and then how many minutes of applause he got. That's it.

Yes, I find this display of ego insufferable, but then I think "is that really more ego than Hillary has, or is there merely a difference in public vs. private manifestation?"

Trump's supposed to be this big racist, what with him bringing super-predators to heel... oh wait. Seems like the difference is one has changed up what they offer for public consumption. I'm sure it would be wrong of me to lob the accusation Hillary's position on say, immigration, has anything to do with getting immigrants to vote for her, or that Trump, the guy who employs probably 1,000s of illegal immigrants, is saying what he says to get people to vote for him.


I'm detecting a pattern.
     
subego  (op)
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Jul 25, 2016, 03:52 AM
 
I think the strongest case I can make is on policy (imagine that).

Much of it, at least with regards to foreign policy, is some combination of morally repugnant, ineffectual, counterproductive, batshit, and/or just plain physically impossible.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jul 25, 2016, 06:31 AM
 
That's why he got along so well w/ the Clintons.
( Last edited by Cap'n Tightpants; Jul 25, 2016 at 02:22 PM. )
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Chongo
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Jul 25, 2016, 10:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I think the strongest case I can make is on policy (imagine that).

Much of it, at least with regards to foreign policy, is some combination of morally repugnant, ineffectual, counterproductive, batshit, and/or just plain physically impossible.
You could always employ "Mario Cuomo" logic. "I'm personally opposed to, but...."

Or, you can do what I'm going to do, write in Kodos.
45/47
     
subego  (op)
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Jul 25, 2016, 10:55 AM
 
I'm voting for Johnson.

But this doesn't let one off the hook. Running away from the question of Clinton vs. Trump doesn't make the question go away, merely lays it at another's feet.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jul 25, 2016, 11:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I think the strongest case I can make is on policy (imagine that).
Err... Isn't that what you should be judging them to begin with?
     
subego  (op)
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Jul 25, 2016, 11:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Err... Isn't that what you should be judging them to begin with?
In theory.

Doesn't always work out that way.

For example, I find it hard to focus on Hillary's policy in the face of her lying about her emails for months straight.

The only edge she has with me is she'll probably make better SCOTUS nominations.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jul 25, 2016, 02:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm voting for Johnson.
Me too. F*ck the Rs and the Ds.
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Jul 25, 2016, 02:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
In theory.

Doesn't always work out that way.

For example, I find it hard to focus on Hillary's policy in the face of her lying about her emails for months straight.

The only edge she has with me is she'll probably make better SCOTUS nominations.
More ACLU approved judges.
45/47
     
Paco500
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Jul 25, 2016, 04:22 PM
 
I am completely baffled that there are any undecideds out there. Unless you are partisan above all else, how can anyone possibly be considering voting for Trump? Hillary is certainly repugnant, but her flaws completely pale in comparison to the shit-show that is Trump. Forget his personal flaws- there are virtually zero policies that make the slightest bit of sense. For all you Republicans and 'Independents' that claim to care so much about the constitution, how can you support him? Is the 2nd really the only amendment that matters to you? And Hillary isn't even calling to suspend that one.

Trump on foreign policy? Disaster. Defense? Disaster. Economy? Disaster. What they hell do you like about him? What is he saying that lets you think, even for a minute that he would make a passable, much less good, president?

Let me say this again- Hillary is a repugnant human being. Entitled, distant relationship with the truth, on and on and on. God I wish she wasn't the only other option, but she is. Gary Johnson is a fun lark, but a: he has zero chance of winning, and b; if he did, would you really want him as president?

Hillary is an uber-politician. Her faults are the same as most career politicians, just magnified. But still a politician. She knows what she is doing.

You may hate Hillary, you may hate Democrats, but the reality is that she will be no worse for the country than the first Clinton or Obama. Trump will be a disaster. I'm not saying this because he's a Republican- because he's not. If he had run as a Democrat, which anyone with a shred of honesty will admit he would have if he thought that was his best path to publicity (I still believe he never intended to get this far), I would have voted for whichever Republican they threw up there- even Ted Cruz- to stop him from getting to the White House.

I can't for the life of me understand how anyone that cares about their country more than their party could vote for him. Or even as much as their party.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jul 25, 2016, 07:53 PM
 
I agree completely with Paco.

As a foreigner, I'm not going to implore America to vote against Trump. When we do that, even in our unanimous hundreds of millions, America doesn't say "Hmm, our allies are telling us we might be about to make a really poor decision. Perhaps we should heed their advice."
Instead you seem to see it as a dare. "Trump would be catastrophic you say? Challenge accepted!"


I still think people might be making the comparison from the wrong end. Hillary is a wealthy, elitist, beholden to the other elitists, and a liar in the way that all politicians are. Trump is all these things but worse. And more bad things on top. On balance its not even a contest. The only reason Trump isn't being referred to as being in the pocket of the uber-rich (which he probably is anyway), is because he IS one of the uber-rich and if they are so bad, why is electing one of them directly not a problem? At least the puppet might choose to break ranks or be disobedient.

While they might both be curtailing certain personal opinions to one degree or another in order to win votes, you know that Hillary will at least have the decency to be embarrassed when she is caught in a lie. Trump will simply gloat about what a great liar he is. We can also be certain that she will be far better on womens rights than he will.
Perhaps this might be an important point to consider: However dishonest she may be, you know pretty much exactly what you are actually going to get from Hillary (and it won't be all that bad). You have absolutely no idea what you'll get from Trump. Given his horrible personality, that should terrify all of you.

Did anyone hear that Trump's team called John Kasich and offered him a job being in charge of foreign and domestic policy under President Trump? Leaving Trumps only job being to "Make America great again." At least you know Hillary will turn up to work.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
turtle777
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Jul 25, 2016, 08:25 PM
 
I just tried to imagine how much shittier the US would be if foreigners could vote.

All these propaganda-fed liberal Europeans would screw up the USSA even more than it is today.

-t
     
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Jul 26, 2016, 12:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
I just tried to imagine how much shittier the US would be if foreigners could vote.

All these propaganda-fed liberal Europeans would screw up the USSA even more than it is today.

-t
It doesn't take much, just look at Merkel and her cohorts. The EU is a flaming bag of dog feces, coming apart at the seams with corruption. Look at the sheer number of wandering undocumented migrants, many of whom are looking for any excuse to murder their hosts. The political sea change that's going to take place there over the next couple years is going to be profound (provided it isn't completely hijacked and converted to a dictatorship for "the greater good"). Given the number of Millennials over there who have no appreciation for democracy, and would much rather be told what to think and do, it wouldn't surprise me.
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The Final Dakar
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Jul 26, 2016, 12:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
In theory.

Doesn't always work out that way.

For example, I find it hard to focus on Hillary's policy in the face of her lying about her emails for months straight.

The only edge she has with me is she'll probably make better SCOTUS nominations.
Are you saying lying about the emails is worse than the emails themselves?
     
The Final Dakar
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Jul 26, 2016, 12:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
It doesn't take much, just look at Merkel and her cohorts. The EU is a flaming bag of dog feces, coming apart at the seams with corruption. Look at the sheer number of wandering undocumented migrants, many of whom are looking for any excuse to murder their hosts. The political sea change that's going to take place there over the next couple years is going to be profound (provided it isn't completely hijacked and converted to a dictatorship for "the greater good"). Given the number of Millennials over there who have no appreciation for democracy, and would much rather be told what to think and do, it wouldn't surprise me.
Sometimes I wonder if I live in the same universe as you people.
     
Paco500
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Jul 26, 2016, 02:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
It doesn't take much, just look at Merkel and her cohorts. The EU is a flaming bag of dog feces, coming apart at the seams with corruption. Look at the sheer number of wandering undocumented migrants, many of whom are looking for any excuse to murder their hosts. The political sea change that's going to take place there over the next couple years is going to be profound (provided it isn't completely hijacked and converted to a dictatorship for "the greater good"). Given the number of Millennials over there who have no appreciation for democracy, and would much rather be told what to think and do, it wouldn't surprise me.
You really have gone full Infowars.
     
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Jul 26, 2016, 06:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Here's the problem I have generating it. With almost everything I come up with I can see a comparable strain in Hillary.

My fundamental problem with Trump is how ****ing petty he is about things. Then I think about Hillary. You know, she's pretty damn petty herself, she just keeps it behind-the-scenes.

Trump's first post-convention ad was a pretty astonishing ego stroke. It listed how long the speech was, and then how many minutes of applause he got. That's it.

Yes, I find this display of ego insufferable, but then I think "is that really more ego than Hillary has, or is there merely a difference in public vs. private manifestation?"

Trump's supposed to be this big racist, what with him bringing super-predators to heel... oh wait. Seems like the difference is one has changed up what they offer for public consumption. I'm sure it would be wrong of me to lob the accusation Hillary's position on say, immigration, has anything to do with getting immigrants to vote for her, or that Trump, the guy who employs probably 1,000s of illegal immigrants, is saying what he says to get people to vote for him.


I'm detecting a pattern.
It sounds like all the Trump criticisms are explicit ones, and all the Hillary ones are conjecture. I've long thought that the side I choose is merely the side that claims the things I'd want, the other side being the one that claims the things I don't want, and neither side is likely to remain faithful to their respective claims (nor would Johnson, right?). They'll end up disappointing you both ways, but you either vote for what they claim to be (as a referendum on their claims), or what's the point at all?
     
subego  (op)
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Jul 26, 2016, 08:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Are you saying lying about the emails is worse than the emails themselves?
Ultimately? Yes.

The security breach turned out as not particularly large. The only reason I personally had any focus on it was because of the vast quantities of lies promulgated about it.

What originally bothered me about her setup was that it's an obvious end-run around FOIA requests.
     
subego  (op)
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Jul 26, 2016, 08:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
It sounds like all the Trump criticisms are explicit ones, and all the Hillary ones are conjecture. I've long thought that the side I choose is merely the side that claims the things I'd want, the other side being the one that claims the things I don't want, and neither side is likely to remain faithful to their respective claims (nor would Johnson, right?). They'll end up disappointing you both ways, but you either vote for what they claim to be (as a referendum on their claims), or what's the point at all?
My big beef with Obama are his spying programs. I voted for him on what I thought was a promise he would end what the Bush administration started.

If you look back, he didn't actually promise that. However, if one wasn't paying close enough attention [raises hand], it was easy to misconstrue his words, but if you looked at them carefully, and looked at his voting record as a senator, that this wasn't his plan is pretty clear.

I'm very disappointed in Obama, but his transgressions aren't he lied to me.

Hillary's lied to me. A lot.


I think there's less conjecture in my OP than may appear. Hillary is famous for holding a grudge. "Bringing super-predators to heel" isn't conjecture. She said it.
     
subego  (op)
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Jul 26, 2016, 08:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
You may hate Hillary, you may hate Democrats, but the reality is that she will be no worse for the country than the first Clinton or Obama.
My best friend is a hardcore Democrat. He won't go so far as to say Obama is above criticism, but really likes the guy.

He hates Hillary's guts with a passion. He's considering voting third-party for the first time (Illinois isn't a battleground. If it weren't, we'd both hold our nose and vote for her anyway).
     
subego  (op)
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Jul 26, 2016, 08:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
While they might both be curtailing certain personal opinions to one degree or another in order to win votes, you know that Hillary will at least have the decency to be embarrassed when she is caught in a lie.
Wait... what?

She's just spent an entire year lying about her email server. Where is this contrition you speak of?
     
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Jul 26, 2016, 09:11 AM
 
So, when Obama said you could keep your insurance, doctor, etc you don't consider THAT to be lying?
     
subego  (op)
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Jul 26, 2016, 09:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
So, when Obama said you could keep your insurance, doctor, etc you don't consider THAT to be lying?
Honestly, I stayed out of that argument.

On almost any other subject I'll do the work, but this one bores me to tears.
     
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Jul 26, 2016, 09:26 AM
 
Not even the "Gruber" aspect of this POS didn't bother you?
     
subego  (op)
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Jul 26, 2016, 09:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Not even the "Gruber" aspect of this POS didn't bother you?
Seriously. I'm utterly ignorant on this. I tuned out for two years straight.

I agreed with Rahm it was the wrong time to do it. That's all I've got.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jul 26, 2016, 09:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Ultimately? Yes.

The security breach turned out as not particularly large. The only reason I personally had any focus on it was because of the vast quantities of lies promulgated about it.

What originally bothered me about her setup was that it's an obvious end-run around FOIA requests.
Ultimately I think that's crazy.

I too assumed it was a FOIA run around but she apparently requested the same setup as Obama which makes me question that.
     
subego  (op)
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Jul 26, 2016, 09:42 AM
 
Citation?
     
subego  (op)
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Jul 26, 2016, 09:48 AM
 
I'll be prepared to eat my hat here, but if this is true not a single Obama email in 7+ years has entered the archive because he's waiting until January for his attorneys to sift through.
     
subego  (op)
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Jul 26, 2016, 09:50 AM
 
And, yes. I'd have a problem with that.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jul 26, 2016, 10:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'll be prepared to eat my hat here, but if this is true not a single Obama email in 7+ years has entered the archive because he's waiting until January for his attorneys to sift through.
Obama uses an iPhones be, not the monstrosity that they offered Hilary.
     
subego  (op)
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Jul 26, 2016, 11:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Obama uses an iPhones be, not the monstrosity that they offered Hilary.
The end run was not handing over any emails over until her tenure ended.
     
BadKosh
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Jul 26, 2016, 11:17 AM
 
They still have the BEZ backups so his emails are part of a public record.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jul 26, 2016, 11:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Citation?
I'm on my phone so you're in your own.
     
subego  (op)
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Jul 26, 2016, 11:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I'm on my phone so you're in your own.
I looked and I found nothing.

Not that it makes you wrong, but I'd just have to start making shit up at this point.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jul 26, 2016, 11:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I looked and I found nothing.

Not that it makes you wrong, but I'd just have to start making shit up at this point.
Hilary blackberry request is the relevant Google search. You're welcome 😉
     
subego  (op)
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Jul 26, 2016, 11:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Hilary blackberry request is the relevant Google search. You're welcome 😉
I think we're taking about different things.

What I'm bitching about is all of her emails being hidden from the State Department for the entire length of her tenure. That's the end-run around the FOIA.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jul 26, 2016, 12:12 PM
 
I thought we were talking about intent not result.
     
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Jul 26, 2016, 12:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Sometimes I wonder if I live in the same universe as you people.
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
You really have gone full Infowars.
No, I actually read the ****ing news (usually CNN and the stuff directly from Reuters and the AP wire), unlike you Salon and Vox devotees. Only blindfolded, diehard Leftists would say that the EU isn't in deep shit over the migrant crisis. They can't bounce Merkel out fast enough over it, and good riddance.
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The Final Dakar
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Jul 26, 2016, 12:27 PM
 
TIL I read Vox and Salon
     
subego  (op)
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Jul 26, 2016, 12:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I thought we were talking about intent not result.
I think the intent of withholding the emails was to do an end-run around FOIA.

Since she deleted relevant ones, it was certainly the result.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jul 26, 2016, 12:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I think the intent of withholding the emails was to do an end-run around FOIA.

Since she deleted relevant ones, it was certainly the result.
We're still talking past each other. I'm in 2009 and you're in 2012.
     
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Jul 26, 2016, 12:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
TIL I read Vox and Salon
You do most of the time OAW links an article, while throwing support behind him, as if he's carrying the tablets down from the mountain.
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The Final Dakar
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Jul 26, 2016, 01:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
You do most of the time OAW links an article, while throwing support behind him, as if he's carrying the tablets down from the mountain.
TIL I support OAW like he's Moses

Anywat this is guilt by association. Agreeing with a post now means I read a website on the regular.
     
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Jul 26, 2016, 09:06 PM
 
I'm fully in the "Vote Trump, for hilarity" camp.

To be clear you'd have to be a flaming idiot to support the man as leader of the free world. But it would certainly be hilarious.
     
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Jul 26, 2016, 10:24 PM
 
I haven't decided if I will vote for Johnson or unenthusiastically vote for Hillary. Maybe it will depend upon the polls. Hillary is a lot of negative things, but as has been said here, she at least knows what she is doing. I honestly and literally don't think Trump would know how to run the country.
     
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Jul 26, 2016, 10:30 PM
 
Stein too off the hook for you?
     
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Jul 27, 2016, 03:43 PM
 
Trump called Anthony Weiner a "sleazeball and a pervert," while saying he didn't like the idea of Huma Abedin telling Weiner government secrets in bed at night.

I'm not going to lie: I laughed. A lot. The delivery was hilarious.
     
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Jul 27, 2016, 04:06 PM
 
So Trump has publicly asked a foreign power to hack classified US government emails. Since intent is a big deal, doesn't that rank as worse than having your own server?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
The Final Dakar
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Jul 27, 2016, 04:15 PM
 
That depends: Is he a Democrat?

In a serious note, while there is a good case for semantics regarding his wording, I point to an easy thought experiment about how the right-wing in this country would react if positions were reversed.

The irony being Obama was suspected of being foreign influenced while Trump just outright called for it.
     
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Jul 27, 2016, 04:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
So Trump has publicly asked a foreign power to hack classified US government emails. Since intent is a big deal, doesn't that rank as worse than having your own server?
No, he was referring to the deleted emails from HRC's (or is it just HC now?) personal sever that has since been destroyed. Trump was referring to a hack that may have already occurred.

From Comey's statement.
With respect to potential computer intrusion by hostile actors, we did not find direct evidence that Secretary Clinton’s personal e-mail domain, in its various configurations since 2009, was successfully hacked. But, given the nature of the system and of the actors potentially involved, we assess that we would be unlikely to see such direct evidence. We do assess that hostile actors gained access to the private commercial e-mail accounts of people with whom Secretary Clinton was in regular contact from her personal account. We also assess that Secretary Clinton’s use of a personal e-mail domain was both known by a large number of people and readily apparent. She also used her personal e-mail extensively while outside the United States, including sending and receiving work-related e-mails in the territory of sophisticated adversaries. Given that combination of factors, we assess it is possible that hostile actors gained access to Secretary Clinton’s personal e-mail account.

You have to hand it the the Donald though. He has managed to suck the air out of Bill's appearance last night. The news channels are talking about him and not Bill's speech.
45/47
     
 
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