[besson3c]

This is not in the Beckapoolza thread cause this is not intended to be another Beck bashing thread. In fact, this thread is in respect to his popularity and undeniable power in this country.

What bothers me, and this would bother me no matter who the leader, is this notion that we should restore America by turning to God:

"Something beyond imagination is happening," he said. "America today begins to turn back to God."

Beck exhorted the crowd to "recognize your place to the creator. Realize that he is our king. He is the one who guides and directs our life and protects us." He asked his audience to pray more. "I ask, not only if you would pray on your knees, but pray on your knees but with your door open for your children to see," he said.

In a time of struggle and challenge for a country, when has cranking up the religious ideology ended well, resulting in something positive? Perhaps Beck is trying to sort of recreate the Reagan 80s, which some people thought were sort of a cultural response to the rebellious, free love, druggy sort of hippy thing in the 70s? I don't know if the Reagan era was God this and God that, but the notion that our solutions require a supernatural being and that everybody should become more religious is rather scary. Religion coupled with politics has never seemed to be a good mix, no matter what the leader or religion.

If any, I can accept a religious component in the social issues facing our country, but with some of the big issues facing our country now including our debt, lack of jobs, debate about the most appropriate balance between regulation and consumer protection while not affecting growth/prosperity in big companies and all that goes with these sorts of conversations, health care, etc. The last thing we need is some zealous religious nut jobs running off their mouths. I can see this coming though, since it seems logical that turning to God is an appropriate thing for people to do when they are scared.

If this movement continues to swell, do you see a dramatic cultural response to this? Or, is this population still too small to be relevant? Some people have written about a so-called war between the extreme right and right. Do you see this too? I think that if I were a moderate right winger, I'd probably be a little worried about the craziest of those on the extreme right (not to say that there aren't just as crazy on the extreme left) hijacking the national identity of the party. Is all of this just the extreme right expressing themselves, or is there more to it?

Can we please keep this thread confined to the religious component to this movement? I don't really feel terribly inspired to rehash why Obama's administration is making the tea party angry, whether the tea party dudes are sane, etc. We've done that.

[CreepDogg]

"Something beyond imagination is happening," he said. "America today begins to turn back to God."

Beck exhorted the crowd to "recognize your place to the creator. Realize that he is our king. He is the one who guides and directs our life and protects us." He asked his audience to pray more. "I ask, not only if you would pray on your knees, but pray on your knees but with your door open for your children to see," he said.

To me, that is one of the most un-American things I've ever heard. That it was spoken on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial is just shameful. I'm also having a hard time understanding how, in that setting and context, that's not a 'political' statement.

That said, I do find it funny that Beck is exhorting his flock to cling to their guns and religion.

[hyteckit]

God, Guns, and Gold!

[finboy]

Originally Posted by CreepDogg 

To me, that is one of the most un-American things I've ever heard. That it was spoken on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial is just shameful. I'm also having a hard time understanding how, in that setting and context, that's not a 'political' statement.

That said, I do find it funny that Beck is exhorting his flock to cling to their guns and religion.

It's definitely a political statement. But it points people toward the founding of the country, when God was just assumed to be part of one's life, at least by many of the founders. How it's shameful to ask people to focus on something outside of themselves, and work with others to achieve greatness, again, I'm not sure. There wasn't any hate or racism or bigotry there today that I saw (during the time I watched) unless it was a bias toward thanking servicepeople.

[turtle777]

Fact: The country would be better of if politicians would be praying more and spending less (even if you don't believe that praying has any positive effect).

-t

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by finboy 

It's definitely a political statement. But it points people toward the founding of the country, when God was just assumed to be part of one's life, at least by many of the founders. How it's shameful to ask people to focus on something outside of themselves, and work with others to achieve greatness, again, I'm not sure. There wasn't any hate or racism or bigotry there today that I saw (during the time I watched) unless it was a bias toward thanking servicepeople.

Do you really think the tea party dudes would interpret this sort of thing as anything other than a general promotion of the Christian God?

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Fact: The country would be better of if politicians would be praying more and spending less (even if you don't believe that praying has any positive effect).

-t

So instead of spending more on wars like Afghanistan and Iraq, just pray?

Instead of helping out the poor and sick, just pray?

So if you are sick, you don't spend money to see a doctor, just pray?

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by finboy 

... God was just assumed to be part of one's life, at least by many of the founders.

The founding fathers were primarily desists, which works under the assumption that God has nothing to do with one's life.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

So instead of spending more on wars like Afghanistan and Iraq, just pray?

Instead of helping out the poor and sick, just pray?

So if you are sick, you don't spend money to see a doctor, just pray?

Troll off.

-t

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Troll off.

-t

Why don't you go back to your shell and start praying.

Praying for those who are fighting in the war.
Praying for those who lost their jobs and can't find employment.
Praying for those who are sick and can't afford insurance.
Praying for those who are about to lose their homes.
Praying for those who are about to lose their businesses.


Maybe the solution is to build more churches, mosque, and temples, so all religions can pray together.
Maybe people in China are just better at praying, since China's economy is growing much more rapidly.

[subego]

turtle and hyteckit, sittin' in a tree...

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by subego 

turtle and hyteckit, sittin' in a tree...

p-r-a-y-i-n-g

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

p-r-a-y-i-n-g

First comes love, Then comes Marriage, Then comes a baby in a gay marriage!

[subego]

Double lol.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

The founding fathers were primarily desists, which works under the assumption that God has nothing to do with one's life.

False. Most of them were Christians. Try to prove me wrong - bring forth your claims about specific founding fathers being deists and we'll go through them one by one.

There's nothing unAmerican about telling the people to rely on G-d. Most of the founders had a very deep, abiding faith in the Creator. To say otherwise is merely to confirm ignorance of history.

[besson3c]

It would depend on whether you would consider god to be synonymous with "the Christian god"... Telling people to rely on the Christian god seems to fly in the face of our religious freedoms which also include not believing in any god.

I will also say that American or un-American, it is just not terribly wise for a polarizing figure with questionable motives to come out and say that and expect positive results.

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Fact: The country would be better of if politicians would be praying more and spending less (even if you don't believe that praying has any positive effect).

-t

By that logic, it would be the exact same statement to say that the country would be better off if politicians would be pooping more and spending less.

Hey - it's besson's thread.

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

There's nothing unAmerican about telling the people to rely on G-d. Most of the founders had a very deep, abiding faith in the Creator. To say otherwise is merely to confirm ignorance of history.

False. It's irrelevant which founding fathers had a very deep, abiding faith in whatever. Our country was founded on religious freedom. One person telling Americans to rely on that person's interpretation of God is exactly the opposite of what every founding father had in mind. And make no mistake, that's exactly what the Beckster was doing.

If you want to go to church and preach to your flock and tell them what to think (and they're willing to listen), fine. When you're talking about what America should believe, different story. That is most definitely un-American.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by CreepDogg 

If you want to go to church and preach to your flock and tell them what to think (and they're willing to listen), fine. When you're talking about what America should believe, different story. That is most definitely un-American.

Exactly. Some people have a hard time grasping the fact that there are people of many faiths in America, and they think they have the right to shove their views down other peoples' throats. It shows their insecurities regarding their own beliefs.

[finboy]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

The founding fathers were primarily desists, which works under the assumption that God has nothing to do with one's life.

You mean Deists, right?

Other than Jefferson, who also self-described as a Unitarian, and Franklin, who used Deism to piss people off in arguments, I'm not sure who you mean. T. Paine is an easy one. Others?

Why did they cite God all the time if he didn't have any bearing on their daily lives? Wouldn't prayer be kind of useless?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by CreepDogg 

By that logic, it would be the exact same statement to say that the country would be better off if politicians would be pooping more and spending less.

In my ideal world, all the politicians are on the golf course improving their game. And maybe they'd get a call on the cell every ten years or so when they're needed to sort a crises out.

This is the problem with democracy - in order to get voted in next time, politicians have to do things, because the electorate expects them to do things (thus wouldn't stand for them being on the golf course all day every day). And it's that "doing things" which invariably screws everything up.

[Doofy]

Does anyone care to explain to Doof how, exactly, you think you've got freedom of religion? The first amendment doesn't read "freedom of religion" to me - it reads "freedom from government interference".

[Doofy]

And while you're at it, please explain how Beck stating his opinion is "unAmerican".

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by CreepDogg 

By that logic, it would be the exact same statement to say that the country would be better off if politicians would be pooping more and spending less.

Hey - it's besson's thread.

I have trained you well! You are ready to graduate, young bessonite...

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

In my ideal world, all the politicians are on the golf course improving their game. And maybe they'd get a call on the cell every ten years or so when they're needed to sort a crises out.

This is the problem with democracy - in order to get voted in next time, politicians have to do things, because the electorate expects them to do things (thus wouldn't stand for them being on the golf course all day every day). And it's that "doing things" which invariably screws everything up.

I can tell you from experience that there's nothing unique about politicians doing that. Working in large companies, I see that every day. Everyone's got to give the appearance that their existence is important, man.

[ironknee]

god.

dumb hicks

[besson3c]

In my ideal world, politicians are highly incompetent, smart, ethical, and committed to doing respectable work. This may be incredibly idealistic, but I just don't see the wisdom in hoping that they just don't do anything. We need great government to do what they do (whatever that is) superbly. There is no point in trying to pretend that this isn't true. Even if you think that government should do very little and that includes managing the military and making decisions about what the military is to do, that still is an awesome responsibility that warrants having the best that the country has to offer in there, not schmucks working on their golf game.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by CreepDogg 

False. It's irrelevant which founding fathers had a very deep, abiding faith in whatever.

Only if you want to assume the founding ideals of the country are irrelevant today. I don't think that's a fair assumption at all.

Our country was founded on religious freedom. One person telling Americans to rely on that person's interpretation of God is exactly the opposite of what every founding father had in mind. And make no mistake, that's exactly what the Beckster was doing.

Laughably poor assertions. Beck never tells anyone to rely solely on his interpretations of religion. Rarely he will push doctrines that are in accordance narrowly with Mormonism. More often but still rarely will he make religious claims that can only apply to Christianity. Most often though (and I know this because while in the States I DVR the show and skim nearly every episode), anything he says about religion applies generally to all believers, at least to believers in monotheism.

If you want to go to church and preach to your flock and tell them what to think (and they're willing to listen), fine. When you're talking about what America should believe, different story. That is most definitely un-American.

Beck isn't telling anyone what to believe. Sometimes he offers explanations of religious doctrines to try "educate" his viewers on certain religious subjects - and some of that material is narrowly sectarian - but his overriding theme is to believe in the Creator and pray for His grace on behalf of the country. That's it.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Fact: The country would be better of if politicians would be praying more and spending less (even if you don't believe that praying has any positive effect).

-t

FTFY.

Prayer has NOTHING to do with being a politician, let alone being an effective, responsive politician.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Why don't you go back to your shell and start praying.

Praying for those who are fighting in the war.
Praying for those who lost their jobs and can't find employment.
Praying for those who are sick and can't afford insurance.
Praying for those who are about to lose their homes.
Praying for those who are about to lose their businesses.


Maybe the solution is to build more churches, mosque, and temples, so all religions can pray together.
Maybe people in China are just better at praying, since China's economy is growing much more rapidly.

Anyone want to pray for me to get a permanent, full-time job? On Friday I received a rejection notice from the 99th job for which I have applied since January 2009.

Anyone want to pray for me to to make my IT consulting business get more clients? (so I can stay above water financially until I obtain a permanent, full-time job.)

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Does anyone care to explain to Doof how, exactly, you think you've got freedom of religion? The first amendment doesn't read "freedom of religion" to me - it reads "freedom from government interference".

Right, so when someone goes around calling for all Americans to turn to God (and make no mistake, it's his interpretation of God he's talking about), and does so in the national Capitol while speaking amongst a bunch of politicians, that's clearly a call for government not to interfere. Um, OK.

If he wants to say 'If you want to adhere to my particular definition of honor, you should turn to God', fine. Calling on America to do the same is un-American, because it's inferring that Americans should adhere to one particular religion. That's the exact opposite of the intent of 'freedom from government interference.' He has the right to his opinion (and, yes, to express it to anyone who will listen), and I have the right to call out his opinion as un-American. Simple as that.

'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...'. Sorry, calling for 'America' to adhere to a particular religion flies in the face of that. It's un-American. If one wants to live in a country where everyone practices their religion, they're welcome to go find that country. This ain't it.

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

And while you're at it, please explain how Beck stating his opinion is "unAmerican".

Him stating his opinion isn't. The opinion itself is.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

There's nothing unAmerican about telling the people to rely on G-d. Most of the founders had a very deep, abiding faith in the Creator. To say otherwise is merely to confirm ignorance of history.

Umm . . . yes there is something "unAmerican about telling the people to rely on [a] god". Telling people to rely on a god gets people believing that their life is not in their control. It gets people believing that faith in a deity is more important than faith in themselves and their abilities. It robs them of any sense of personal agency in their daily life. Having faith in a god won't get somebody a job; But having faith in themselves, and their demonstrable skills in a particular area of competency/expertise, WILL* get someone a job (or, at the very least, increase their likelihood of getting a job).
*If you go into a job interview and talk about your faith in a god how is that relevant to the requirements of the job? One needs to go into a job interview and talk about their faith in themselves and their ability to perform the tasks of the job in question.

People don't put their religious beliefs on a resume because an employer, in most circumstances, doesn't care about the applicant's religious beliefs--Nor should they--as being a valid substitute for competency/expertise in a given line of work.

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Only if you want to assume the founding ideals of the country are irrelevant today. I don't think that's a fair assumption at all.

Um, the founding ideal was religious freedom. That, in itself, renders the particular religions of the founding fathers irrelevant. As in, every founding father was free to practice his religion in his way.

Laughably poor assertions. Beck never tells anyone to rely solely on his interpretations of religion. Rarely he will push doctrines that are in accordance narrowly with Mormonism. More often but still rarely will he make religious claims that can only apply to Christianity. Most often though (and I know this because while in the States I DVR the show and skim nearly every episode), anything he says about religion applies generally to all believers, at least to believers in monotheism.

Beck isn't telling anyone what to believe. Sometimes he offers explanations of religious doctrines to try "educate" his viewers on certain religious subjects - and some of that material is narrowly sectarian - but his overriding theme is to believe in the Creator and pray for His grace on behalf of the country. That's it.

Do you even listen to yourself talk? It didn't even take two sentences (see bold above) for you to contradict yourself. With that, and the re-quote below, and I'm happy to leave it to others to determine whose assertions are laughably poor.

Originally Posted by The Beckmeister, once again!

Beck exhorted the crowd to "recognize your place to the creator. Realize that he is our king. He is the one who guides and directs our life and protects us." He asked his audience to pray more. "I ask, not only if you would pray on your knees, but pray on your knees but with your door open for your children to see," he said.

Right. That's not telling anyone what to believe.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Beck isn't telling anyone what to believe. Sometimes he offers explanations of religious doctrines to try "educate" his viewers on certain religious subjects - and some of that material is narrowly sectarian - but his overriding theme is to believe in the Creator and pray for His grace on behalf of the country. That's it.

Why do we need citizens to "believe in the Creator and pray for His grace on behalf of the country"?
Will having citizens praying to a god for some providential blessings on this country make companies more willing to hire new/more employees?
Will having citizens praying to a god for some providential blessings on this country make our neighbors be nicer to us/one another?
Will having citizens praying to a god for some providential blessings on this country make those who live beyond their means change their personal habits?


In other words, what is the direct, demonstrable, quantifiable benefit to citizens of this country from encouraging them to pray to a god for some providential blessings on this country? What does the act of praying, and praying with this particular purpose in mind (i.e.: providing "His grace on behalf of the country"), do to directly benefit the citizens of this country? How does such an action make this country a better place in which to live?

[dcmacdaddy]

My point in all of my posts is to illustrate the contradiction in Glenn Beck's assertions.

His claims that specific actions ("recognizing our place to the creator. Realizing that . . . He is the one who guides and directs our life and protects us") will have specific beneficial outcomes for the well-being of this country. But there is absolutely NO WAY to show correlation, let alone causation, between American citizens "recognizing our place to the creator. Realizing that . . . He is the one who guides and directs our life and protects us" and improvements in the social/political/economic state of this country.

In essence, he makes an assertion that can in NO WAY be tested for accuracy and/or validity. So, his assertions are thus rendered meaningless of any and all value. He is essentially stating that action A will lead to effect B but action A is not quantifiable, measurable, or evaluable (e.g.: able to be evaluated) by any useful metric.

His words are simply empty rhetoric without any practical or logical value.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by CreepDogg 

Do you even listen to yourself talk? It didn't even take two sentences (see bold above) for you to contradict yourself.

When I said Beck doesn't tell people what to believe, I meant what specific religious beliefs to hold. Beck says believe and pray. He doesn't say what deity in specific to believe in or pray to. Most of the time he includes synagogues and mosques along with churches in his exhortations to reach out to G-d.

But you see, the confusion here between you and me, CreepDogg, stems from the fact that I didn't realize fully that I needed to aim my words at the lowest common denominator participant in this thread. Next time around I'll try to dumb down my words more, although I don't know if I can communicate at such a low level to be able to get through to certain simpletons around here.

[hyteckit]

Does Glenn Beck want to start a mega-church or something?

Lots of money to be made.

I'm sure Goldline scam can only generate so much money.

Using God to sell:

1. Gold!
2. Beck University
3. Beck Mega-Church

God is a big business.

[Oisín]

So this thread is not about Beck, then?!

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

So this thread is not about Beck, then?!

This one is more about religion and praying.

The other one is more about Glenn Beck and his Beckapalooza.

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

This one is more about religion and praying.

The other one is more about Glenn Beck and his Beckapalooza.

Yeah, I just realised that now. I’d spent the past two days (not having read either thread) thinking it was about Beck the musician, rather than Glenn Beck the whatever-he-is.

[screener]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Next time around I'll try to dumb down my words more, although I don't know if I can communicate at such a low level to be able to get through to certain simpletons around here.

Now that's funny.
Funny because you actually believe.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by CreepDogg 

Him stating his opinion isn't. The opinion itself is.

OK. Sorry, I didn't realise that certain opinions were proscribed in the land of the free.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by CreepDogg 

I can tell you from experience that there's nothing unique about politicians doing that. Working in large companies, I see that every day. Everyone's got to give the appearance that their existence is important, man.

Really?

Now ask yourself... ...since you're not forced to buy a pair of Nikes, do the actions of the people keeping up appearances at Nike affect you as much as the actions of those keeping up appearances who also have control over tax and interest rates?

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I will also say that American or un-American, it is just not terribly wise for a polarizing figure with questionable motives to come out and say that and expect positive results.

i.e. another Beck-bashing thread. Beck is harmless man, worry about the people that are truly fxcking the country up right now.

You people kill me. Seriously.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

When I said Beck doesn't tell people what to believe, I meant what specific religious beliefs to hold. Beck says believe and pray. He doesn't say what deity in specific to believe in or pray to. Most of the time he includes synagogues and mosques along with churches in his exhortations to reach out to G-d.

But you see, the confusion here between you and me, CreepDogg, stems from the fact that I didn't realize fully that I needed to aim my words at the lowest common denominator participant in this thread. Next time around I'll try to dumb down my words more, although I don't know if I can communicate at such a low level to be able to get through to certain simpletons around here.

You can't Big Mac and you're not the problem. By the time you reach the lowest common denominator for them today, it'll be an all-new low tomorrow. They're circling the drain at this point.

HE SAID GOD!!! FOX NEWS!!! SARAHPALIN!!! GUNS!!! SCARY!!! AHHHHHHH!!!!

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

When I said Beck doesn't tell people what to believe, I meant what specific religious beliefs to hold. Beck says believe and pray. He doesn't say what deity in specific to believe in or pray to. Most of the time he includes synagogues and mosques along with churches in his exhortations to reach out to G-d.

I think it's pretty clear from his quote above what he was telling people. If you want to split hairs about specific 'denominations', be my guest. Unfortunately, it doesn't make any difference in what he said.

But you see, the confusion here between you and me, CreepDogg, stems from the fact that I didn't realize fully that I needed to aim my words at the lowest common denominator participant in this thread. Next time around I'll try to dumb down my words more, although I don't know if I can communicate at such a low level to be able to get through to certain simpletons around here.

That's right. When you've got nothing to say and no leg to stand on in your argument, change the subject and call me stupid. Works every time.

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Really?

Yes. Really.

Now ask yourself... ...since you're not forced to buy a pair of Nikes, do the actions of the people keeping up appearances at Nike affect you as much as the actions of those keeping up appearances who also have control over tax and interest rates?

Nike specifically? No. Other cases, closer to home? Yes - even more so than the impacts of tax and interest rates.

I'm just saying that behavior human nature not confined to government. Expecting something different just because it's government is naive.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

The founding fathers were primarily desists, which works under the assumption that God has nothing to do with one's life.

It's not nice to mess with somebody's revised history.

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

OK. Sorry, I didn't realise that certain opinions were proscribed in the land of the free.

Um, that's exactly the point. HE'S the one trying to proscribe a certain opinion...