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"Musicians should make their money touring"
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besson3c
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Jul 29, 2009, 02:09 PM
 
I shudder every time I hear this sentiment. I wonder if people who say this have ever taken a flight before?

I was just talking to somebody who was part of a tour landing in Finland and he was stuck with transportation problems for over 30 hours, and is not the type of person that can sleep on a plane, and presumably not in an airport either. You have delays such as this, lost/damaged baggage, VISA issues, hope that the venue will come through and have a driver waiting for you at the airport, hotel issues, etc., and this is just scratching the surface.

I also hear about how glamorous the life must be to be able to "see the world". Most of the time the musicians I know don't have time to sight see, and if they do it is difficult to do while under stress worrying about the gig/tour/venue, that everybody will arrive, that all of the equipment will be there, etc. I'm sure Doofy can extend upon my list

Imagine all of that, and trying to maintain your edge to satisfy a crowd of people that have paid big bucks for your tickets, and doing all of this while jet lagged... Does this sound like fun to you? Glamorous?

Yes, not all situations and touring schedules are horrific, but my point is that there is always a lot that can go wrong. Choosing to pirate the band's music because you think they should only make their money touring is asking for a lot, don't you think?
     
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Jul 29, 2009, 02:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Choosing to pirate the band's music because you think they should only make their money touring is asking for a lot, don't you think?
Ask Buddy Holly about the importance of touring. Touring is for chumps.

Anyone who's ever toured can tell you that it's horrible. I mean the rush you get from playing live is great, and you get so much love from fans and everything, but it's a grueling lifestyle playing live every day. Add the travel, and it means no family life, no stability, etc.

So I'm with you. The "touring" thing is just an excuse so people can justify stealing music. Intellectual property is still property, and taking it still deprives people of something they've rightly earned.
     
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Jul 29, 2009, 02:22 PM
 
I don't think most people's jobs sound glamorous.
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besson3c  (op)
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Jul 29, 2009, 02:37 PM
 
Yeah, the family thing is a whole other important variable I neglected to put in my original list...

I kind of wonder whether these sorts of stresses helped lead to Michael Jackson's demise too. I mean, being one of the world's most prolific entertainers must carry its toll on your schedule, on the pressures you face to live up to your name, and the need to remain creative and inventive throughout all of this.

Chuckit: what you say is true, but I'm just surprised how naive people can be. Having said that, I don't mean to sound all preachy, I didn't purchase everything in music collection, but just because the music industry is struggling to find a better business model doesn't justify the rationale of the thread subject. If you want to steal, at least cling to a better rationale!
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jul 29, 2009, 02:43 PM
 
The other funny thing about touring these days seems to be the effect of the internet and Indies. I remember hearing a band in Chicago that had a very responsive, young, dancing, energetic and screaming crowd (and no, it wasn't a jazz concert My friend knew the bass player in the band, so we talked to him during the set break. He said that the band is very big in Chicago and they love playing there because of that, but they just got back from Cleveland where there was virtually nobody there.

So, I guess if you aren't plugged into the big machine that is the major record labels, your success might be fairly regional and driven by the Internet.
     
nonhuman
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Jul 29, 2009, 02:46 PM
 
It doesn't matter what anyone things musicians (or anyone else) should do, what matters is what they can do and reasonably expect to turn a profit. One thing they certainly can't do is stop piracy.
     
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Jul 29, 2009, 02:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I'm sure Doofy can extend upon my list
Oh yes.

My new band has been told in no uncertain terms that there'll be no touring whatsoever. I like waking up in my own bed too much. And Ted likes trying to french me first thing in the morning as payment for his nom noms.
It's just too much hassle. You can't even throw phones at hotel receptionists these days.
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Jul 29, 2009, 02:56 PM
 
Dude, did you get my email about the subs and amps?
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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besson3c  (op)
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Jul 29, 2009, 02:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
It doesn't matter what anyone things musicians (or anyone else) should do, what matters is what they can do and reasonably expect to turn a profit. One thing they certainly can't do is stop piracy.
I agree that stopping piracy cannot be done, but I disagree that it is futile to not concern ourselves with what other people think. People have choices to make, and while I think we need to be respectful of these choices, whatever they are (even drinkingr choices), people (particularly young people) need to be educated as to what some of the possible ramifications of their decisions might be. This education comes from sort of opening doors and gently revealing bits and pieces about the economics of music, hoping that they will take an interest.

It would be naive for me to suggest that this interest happens a whole lot, but even if it only seldom happens, this is probably better than just taking a completely hands off attitude.
( Last edited by besson3c; Jul 29, 2009 at 03:05 PM. )
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jul 29, 2009, 02:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
You can't even throw phones at hotel receptionists these days.
Not if you carry an extra cellphone or two with you
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jul 29, 2009, 03:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by RAILhead View Post
Dude, did you get my email about the subs and amps?
No, I didn't. Could you send it again?
     
nonhuman
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Jul 29, 2009, 03:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I agree that stopping piracy cannot be done, but I disagree that it is futile to not concern ourselves with what other people think. People have choices to make, and while I think we need to be respectful of these choices, whatever they are, people (particularly young people) need to be educated as to what some of the possible ramifications of their decisions might be. This education comes from sort of opening doors and revealing bits and pieces about the economics of music, hoping that they will take an interest.

It would be naive for me to suggest that this interest happens a whole lot, but even if it only seldom happens, this is probably better than just taking a completely hands off attitude.
I think you may have misunderstood me. I'm not saying we should just ignore what people think, I'm saying that musicians needs to take a practical approach and consider what will actually work regardless of what they or anyone else wants to work.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jul 29, 2009, 03:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
I think you may have misunderstood me. I'm not saying we should just ignore what people think, I'm saying that musicians needs to take a practical approach and consider what will actually work regardless of what they or anyone else wants to work.
That goes without saying

Sorry for my misunderstanding you.
     
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Jul 29, 2009, 03:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by RAILhead View Post
Dude, did you get my email about the subs and amps?
Yeah dude. The reply's in progress.
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RAILhead
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Jul 29, 2009, 04:14 PM
 
Noice! Thanks!
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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Laminar
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Jul 29, 2009, 04:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by RAILhead View Post
Dude, did you get my email about the subs and amps?
No, I didn't. Could you send it again?
     
turtle777
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Jul 29, 2009, 04:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
No, I didn't. Could you send it again?
Just did.

-t
     
Laminar
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Jul 29, 2009, 04:31 PM
 
Thanks, I'm looking forward to our next conversation.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jul 29, 2009, 04:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by RAILhead View Post
Noice! Thanks!
No problem, I look forward to our next conversation
     
mduell
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Jul 29, 2009, 05:06 PM
 
Making money is haaaaaaaaaaard.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jul 29, 2009, 05:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
Making money is haaaaaaaaaaard.
Not when you have sperm and stool samples that are as healthy and desirable as mine...
     
turtle777
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Jul 29, 2009, 05:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Not when you have sperm and stool samples that are as healthy and desirable as mine...
Does your gene pool contain stool ?

-t
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jul 29, 2009, 05:13 PM
 
No, but my swimming pool does. Stupid neighborhood kids
     
turtle777
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Jul 29, 2009, 05:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
No, but my stooling pool does. Stupid neighborhood kids use it for swimming
Fixinated.

-t
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jul 29, 2009, 05:33 PM
 
How come my censor didn't censor the steal part of pool?

edit: "steal"... haven't had that substitution before!
     
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Jul 29, 2009, 08:10 PM
 
Problem solved


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sdilley14
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Jul 30, 2009, 12:03 AM
 
Don't care if they have to rush around and worry all the time. It's the life they signed up for and they make a LOT more money doing a lot less work than most normal people do to make a living. They trade the stress and worries of money in exchange for the other things listed. I think thats a decent trade. And most bands only last 5-10 years, meaning they can "retire" a lot earlier than most and live comfortably in retirement (if they have any financial savvy). Of course this doesn't apply to all bands, but I'm guessing this thread was targeted at larger bands who suffer the most from piracy.
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Jul 30, 2009, 12:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by sdilley14 View Post
Don't care if they have to rush around and worry all the time. It's the life they signed up for and they make a LOT more money doing a lot less work than most normal people do to make a living.


That could not possibly be any less true...

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besson3c  (op)
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Jul 30, 2009, 01:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by sdilley14 View Post
Don't care if they have to rush around and worry all the time. It's the life they signed up for and they make a LOT more money doing a lot less work than most normal people do to make a living. They trade the stress and worries of money in exchange for the other things listed. I think thats a decent trade. And most bands only last 5-10 years, meaning they can "retire" a lot earlier than most and live comfortably in retirement (if they have any financial savvy). Of course this doesn't apply to all bands, but I'm guessing this thread was targeted at larger bands who suffer the most from piracy.
I don't know what gives you that impression, but for starters I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of bands that tour (and there are a ton of them, not just the big names) are not rolling in dough - far from it.
     
Salty
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Jul 30, 2009, 10:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by sdilley14 View Post
Don't care if they have to rush around and worry all the time. It's the life they signed up for and they make a LOT more money doing a lot less work than most normal people do to make a living. They trade the stress and worries of money in exchange for the other things listed. I think thats a decent trade. And most bands only last 5-10 years, meaning they can "retire" a lot earlier than most and live comfortably in retirement (if they have any financial savvy). Of course this doesn't apply to all bands, but I'm guessing this thread was targeted at larger bands who suffer the most from piracy.
See this is where things break down. I don't think anyone is really worried about acts like Beyonce making money, odds are a ton of people are going to buy her next album regardless the label will more than break even, and she'll have tons of money. Beyonce also probably had a lot of people to do the worrying for her.

On the other hand, smaller bands which are typically the kind I like, (Once I hear a band on the radio who I actually like I'm always scared they've started to suck.) have to put up with a lot. I remember I did some web work for one, and the bassist worked at a coffee shop because the band didn't pay the bills. Common stories, in a lot of cases bands barely make enough money to pay their bills, let alone have anything left when they retire. I know one of my favourite ska bands, who was even on a small indie label said that after everything was said and done they never made a dime off CD sales, every bit they made they made from touring.

That said, throwing all this creative people into a stressful environment that causes them to question life and what not, does help create some really good music

Switchfoot's Nothing is Sound album was actually recorded largely on tour, and I still think it's their best.
     
nonhuman
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Jul 30, 2009, 10:54 AM
 
My wife works in the indie music industry so I've spent a lot of time with a lot of artists: unsigned artists, even exceptionally good ones, are not (generally) living it large.
     
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Jul 30, 2009, 11:18 AM
 
I'd love to make my money just being a studio musician, but there isn't much market for that here in Springfield, Missouri.
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nonhuman
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Jul 30, 2009, 11:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by ApertureValue View Post
I'd love to make my money just being a studio musician, but there isn't much market for that here in Springfield, Missouri.
Move to Nashville?
     
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Jul 30, 2009, 11:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
My wife works in the indie music industry so I've spent a lot of time with a lot of artists: unsigned artists, even exceptionally good ones, are not (generally) living it large.
Indeed, hence why I buy music by those artists. Actually there's a girl with a gorgeous voice at my Church and I think whenever I know she's in concert I'm gonna go simply because I know she's not making much cash doing it but she's so good!
     
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Jul 30, 2009, 11:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by sdilley14 View Post
I'm guessing this thread was targeted at larger bands who suffer the most from piracy.
The smaller guys are the ones who suffer most from piracy. You know, the guys who've re-mortgaged their house to finance their recordings and three weeks later find their product on torrent sites.
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Jul 30, 2009, 11:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by ApertureValue View Post
I'd love to make my money just being a studio musician, but there isn't much market for that here in Springfield, Missouri.
There's a market for it anywhere. Get your own studio, record your own songs and sell them.
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Jul 30, 2009, 12:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
Move to Nashville?
There's a very long and complicated reason we can't move right now. I don't think I'd move to Nashville if my life depended on it, however.
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Jul 30, 2009, 12:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
There's a market for it anywhere. Get your own studio, record your own songs and sell them.
It takes plenty of $$$ that I don't have. I could go full-on bootleg quality, but I don't roll that way.
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jokell82
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Jul 30, 2009, 04:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
The smaller guys are the ones who suffer most from piracy. You know, the guys who've re-mortgaged their house to finance their recordings and three weeks later find their product on torrent sites.
That's debatable. I've toured with quite a few smaller bands, and all of them were big proponents of people sharing their albums. The small bands benefit by getting their name out, which is huge when you are first starting. The end game for most of these bands is getting signed, and the number of records you sell on the way to that goal doesn't really matter, whereas your popularity certainly does.

Now if by small bands you mean ones that are signed to a mini-major or something like that, I'd agree.

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Jul 30, 2009, 04:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
That's debatable. I've toured with quite a few smaller bands, and all of them were big proponents of people sharing their albums. The small bands benefit by getting their name out, which is huge when you are first starting. The end game for most of these bands is getting signed, and the number of records you sell on the way to that goal doesn't really matter, whereas your popularity certainly does.
But if their crap's already available to download for free, nobody is ever going to sign them.

Those dudes will be flipping burgers in 5/10 years' time.
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Jul 30, 2009, 05:15 PM
 
^ Truth.

Or rather, nobody's gonna sign the material that's been shared, so they better have been careful with what they shared and made damn sure to have enough unreleased material by the wayside for when the time comes.
     
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Jul 30, 2009, 05:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
But if their crap's already available to download for free, nobody is ever going to sign them.

Those dudes will be flipping burgers in 5/10 years' time.
Everyone's crap is available to download for free - people still get signed. I don't understand your logic.

And yes, I'd wager that 95% of all bands end up flipping burgers in the end.

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Jul 30, 2009, 05:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
Everyone's crap is available to download for free - people still get signed. I don't understand your logic.
OK, let me rephrase. No record company is interested in entering into a business partnership with people who believe that their product should be given away.

You want to sell records and become steenking rich? Maybe I'll sign you.
You want to give away recordings just to increase your fame (and thus your chances with that hot girl at your local bar)? Bzzzt, next!
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Jul 30, 2009, 07:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
OK, let me rephrase. No record company is interested in entering into a business partnership with people who believe that their product should be given away.

You want to sell records and become steenking rich? Maybe I'll sign you.
You want to give away recordings just to increase your fame (and thus your chances with that hot girl at your local bar)? Bzzzt, next!
That makes a whole lot of sense, but it just doesn't jive with my experience working with bands at this level. The record companies couldn't give a crap about their views on file sharing *before* they're signed, only that they're willing to promote selling the album *after* they've signed.

But that's just my experience with the major companies, I don't have much experience with the smaller labels other than a few.

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Jul 31, 2009, 09:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
OK, let me rephrase. No record company is interested in entering into a business partnership with people who believe that their product should be given away.

You want to sell records and become steenking rich? Maybe I'll sign you.
You want to give away recordings just to increase your fame (and thus your chances with that hot girl at your local bar)? Bzzzt, next!
I'm not sure you're properly seeing the value of popularity here. If you can build a strong, loyal following, even if you have to do so by sacrificing the immediate gain of album sales, you also create a vehicle for profit. Simply by having a large group of people that you can more or less guarantee will show up at your performances and listen to what you have to say means that you can sell advertising and find sponsorships. Popularity can be monetized, and by giving way the fruits of your labor for free you're only strengthening the zeal of your fans and improving your reputation and therefore suitability for sponsorship.

A more specific example:
I've never (as far as I know) heard any of the music you've worked on. And yet, when you advocate for a particular model or brand of music-related equipment over another, I listen. That's an opportunity for you, and for the manufacturer of said equipment. Capitalism is a non-zero-sum system.
     
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Jul 31, 2009, 12:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
I'm not sure you're properly seeing the value of popularity here. If you can build a strong, loyal following, even if you have to do so by sacrificing the immediate gain of album sales, you also create a vehicle for profit. Simply by having a large group of people that you can more or less guarantee will show up at your performances and listen to what you have to say means that you can sell advertising and find sponsorships. Popularity can be monetized, and by giving way the fruits of your labor for free you're only strengthening the zeal of your fans and improving your reputation and therefore suitability for sponsorship.
Problem with this is that those fans you've built up on the back of freebies will generally be reluctant to shell out for anything. Yes, you want fans - but you want paying fans, not moochers. Else it's back to that junior management position at Burger King.

Also, those types of fans will shout "sell out" and up camp to mooch off another band as soon as advertising or sponsorship is suggested.

Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
A more specific example:
I've never (as far as I know) heard any of the music you've worked on. And yet, when you advocate for a particular model or brand of music-related equipment over another, I listen. That's an opportunity for you, and for the manufacturer of said equipment.
But would you pay for said advice?
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Jul 31, 2009, 01:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Problem with this is that those fans you've built up on the back of freebies will generally be reluctant to shell out for anything. Yes, you want fans - but you want paying fans, not moochers. Else it's back to that junior management position at Burger King.

Also, those types of fans will shout "sell out" and up camp to mooch off another band as soon as advertising or sponsorship is suggested.
I don't think that's necessarily the case. You're assuming that people who are willing to pay for good music aren't even going to bother listening to music if it's free. That seems unlikely. There's no such thing as a paying fan; even now people don't pay to enjoy your music, they pay to have access to it. But it's only because they enjoy it that they might be willing to pay for access to it. By removing the restriction of access you're opening up new markets of people who might now be exposed to your music and become a fan.

And I don't think the fans will leave just because you happen to be making money off their fandom, because that's how all bands make money and yet they still have fans. The difference is only where the money is coming from and the number of people that have access to it (and therefore the number of potential fans). Yes you might alienate some people, but if you do it right, you stand to gain more than you lose.

But would you pay for said advice?
No, but the people whose products you're advocating for will if you have a large enough following.

Again, the idea here is to change the way in which artists make money. Currently artists make money through two things: sales of their art, merchandising based on their art, and sales of tickets to performances/viewings of their art. The later two of those revenue streams aren't going anywhere, but clearly the digital age is threatening to destroy the first. What I'm saying is that there are other possible sources of revenue that might enable artists to give away their art for free without sacrificing, and possibly even increasing, their income.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jul 31, 2009, 01:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
I'm not sure you're properly seeing the value of popularity here. If you can build a strong, loyal following, even if you have to do so by sacrificing the immediate gain of album sales, you also create a vehicle for profit. Simply by having a large group of people that you can more or less guarantee will show up at your performances and listen to what you have to say means that you can sell advertising and find sponsorships. Popularity can be monetized, and by giving way the fruits of your labor for free you're only strengthening the zeal of your fans and improving your reputation and therefore suitability for sponsorship.

A more specific example:
I've never (as far as I know) heard any of the music you've worked on. And yet, when you advocate for a particular model or brand of music-related equipment over another, I listen. That's an opportunity for you, and for the manufacturer of said equipment. Capitalism is a non-zero-sum system.

This depends on how creatively fluent the artist/band is. If they can crank out frequent new quality material that is of interest to people, this approach would probably work fine. If they are sort of one album wonders like MC Hammer or Vanilla Ice or something, not so much.
     
Salty
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Jul 31, 2009, 01:17 PM
 
Dude, U2 gets sponsorship, Eminem gets sponsorship, Mae, gets jack. Mutemath isn't getting sponsored, heck Switchfoot isn't even getting sponsored, your idea, ends up killing all the bands and leaves me with drivel. Essentially you expect musicians to play for free when you'd never want to work for free. You're acting as if there's only like 200 bands in the world and we're all gonna support them with ads and stuff. There are THOUSANDS, of small bands out there at any given time, and there aren't nearly enough sponsorships to pay for them to eat. So if you're going to enjoy their art, freaking pony up and shut up!
     
nonhuman
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Jul 31, 2009, 01:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
This depends on how creatively fluent the artist/band is. If they can crank out frequent new quality material that is of interest to people, this approach would probably work fine. If they are sort of one album wonders like MC Hammer or Vanilla Ice or something, not so much.
So what? If anyone, musician or not, can't consistently perform then they won't consistently make money.
     
 
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