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"Musicians should make their money touring" (Page 2)
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Doofy
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Jul 31, 2009, 01:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
So what? If anyone, musician or not, can't consistently perform then they won't consistently make money.
How I wish that applied to governments and their respective tax-gathering organisations.
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nonhuman
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Jul 31, 2009, 01:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Salty View Post
Dude, U2 gets sponsorship, Eminem gets sponsorship, Mae, gets jack. Mutemath isn't getting sponsored, heck Switchfoot isn't even getting sponsored, your idea, ends up killing all the bands and leaves me with drivel. Essentially you expect musicians to play for free when you'd never want to work for free. You're acting as if there's only like 200 bands in the world and we're all gonna support them with ads and stuff. There are THOUSANDS, of small bands out there at any given time, and there aren't nearly enough sponsorships to pay for them to eat. So if you're going to enjoy their art, freaking pony up and shut up!
Just because they don't get sponsorships doesn't mean they can't get sponsorships. You're also assuming that nothing will change about the way musicians and potential sponsors do business. I'm not simply proposing that all musicians stop charging for albums and instead seek sponsorships from Nike and KORG, what I'm suggesting is a massive shift in the way the music industry works and the way it interacts with both its fans and with the rest of the economy.

The first, and most obvious, difference is that more bands, even small ones, will actually seek sponsorships. They could be doing this now, but the vast majority of musicians are artists first, and businessmen... not at all. Why do you think U2, Eminem, and, perhaps the best example, Beyonce are as popular and successful as they are? Because they are actually skillful and accomplished businessmen! The reason many artists find it so difficult to succeed and get gigs, let alone signed to a label or, if they do manage it, end up becoming essentially slaves to that label, is that they have no concept or understanding of how to run their business; they don't even conceive of what they do as a business and fail to understand the importance of establishing and maintaining a brand. They don't want to advertise or market themselves because they naively think that if they play good music they will magically acquire fans who are willing to pay for it. It doesn't work that way, it never has, and it never will.

Regardless of what model the music industry moves forward with, the only way for a band to succeed is to either run themselves like a business or to get a competent manger who understands how to run them like a business and is empowered to do so even though it might chafe against their 'artistic integrity'.
     
nonhuman
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Jul 31, 2009, 01:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
How I wish that applied to governments and their respective tax-gathering organisations.
Tell me about it.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jul 31, 2009, 02:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
Just because they don't get sponsorships doesn't mean they can't get sponsorships. You're also assuming that nothing will change about the way musicians and potential sponsors do business. I'm not simply proposing that all musicians stop charging for albums and instead seek sponsorships from Nike and KORG, what I'm suggesting is a massive shift in the way the music industry works and the way it interacts with both its fans and with the rest of the economy.

The first, and most obvious, difference is that more bands, even small ones, will actually seek sponsorships. They could be doing this now, but the vast majority of musicians are artists first, and businessmen... not at all. Why do you think U2, Eminem, and, perhaps the best example, Beyonce are as popular and successful as they are? Because they are actually skillful and accomplished businessmen! The reason many artists find it so difficult to succeed and get gigs, let alone signed to a label or, if they do manage it, end up becoming essentially slaves to that label, is that they have no concept or understanding of how to run their business; they don't even conceive of what they do as a business and fail to understand the importance of establishing and maintaining a brand. They don't want to advertise or market themselves because they naively think that if they play good music they will magically acquire fans who are willing to pay for it. It doesn't work that way, it never has, and it never will.

Regardless of what model the music industry moves forward with, the only way for a band to succeed is to either run themselves like a business or to get a competent manger who understands how to run them like a business and is empowered to do so even though it might chafe against their 'artistic integrity'.

Have you read anything about what happens when one business entity has this kind of control over the art that somebody else produces? Have you ever really gotten into a TV show that was canceled (like Firefly)? This would be even worse. Sponsors are in the business to make money, and so they will try to do everything they can to monetize the art they are sponsoring. Sometimes this sort of thing has okay results, but it also often has catastrophic results.

There is a reason why so many artists are interested in the Indie labels these days, one reason being that their dominion over the artists is usually a little more flexible and artist-friendly.
     
nonhuman
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Jul 31, 2009, 02:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Have you read anything about what happens when one business entity has this kind of control over the art that somebody else produces? Have you ever really gotten into a TV show that was canceled (like Firefly)? This would be even worse. Sponsors are in the business to make money, and so they will try to do everything they can to monetize the art they are sponsoring. Sometimes this sort of thing has okay results, but it also often has catastrophic results.

There is a reason why so many artists are interested in the Indie labels these days, one reason being that their dominion over the artists is usually a little more flexible and artist-friendly.
So don't sign a contract that gives the sponsors that sort of control over your art...

This is what I was talking about when I said that musicians need to also be good businessmen before they can have any reasonable expectation of success.

Also there's no reason for individual artists to be doing this on their own. There's still a place for the labels: as the entity that helps artists find and manage sponsorships and such. Grouping together under labels gives the artists a sort of collective bargaining power, plus allows them to offload some of the business aspects of what they do. But even still, as you rightly point out, they need to be able and willing to understand the business aspects of what they're doing.
     
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Jul 31, 2009, 02:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Have you read anything about what happens when one business entity has this kind of control over the art that somebody else produces? Have you ever really gotten into a TV show that was canceled (like Firefly)?
Or like a record label that decides to stop allowing one of its artists to record and/or release albums?
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jokell82
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Jul 31, 2009, 02:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
Just because they don't get sponsorships doesn't mean they can't get sponsorships. You're also assuming that nothing will change about the way musicians and potential sponsors do business. I'm not simply proposing that all musicians stop charging for albums and instead seek sponsorships from Nike and KORG, what I'm suggesting is a massive shift in the way the music industry works and the way it interacts with both its fans and with the rest of the economy.

The first, and most obvious, difference is that more bands, even small ones, will actually seek sponsorships. They could be doing this now, but the vast majority of musicians are artists first, and businessmen... not at all. Why do you think U2, Eminem, and, perhaps the best example, Beyonce are as popular and successful as they are? Because they are actually skillful and accomplished businessmen! The reason many artists find it so difficult to succeed and get gigs, let alone signed to a label or, if they do manage it, end up becoming essentially slaves to that label, is that they have no concept or understanding of how to run their business; they don't even conceive of what they do as a business and fail to understand the importance of establishing and maintaining a brand. They don't want to advertise or market themselves because they naively think that if they play good music they will magically acquire fans who are willing to pay for it. It doesn't work that way, it never has, and it never will.

Regardless of what model the music industry moves forward with, the only way for a band to succeed is to either run themselves like a business or to get a competent manger who understands how to run them like a business and is empowered to do so even though it might chafe against their 'artistic integrity'.
You sound like you are very inexperienced with the music industry. The only successful bands in the industry are either immensely talented and can get by on talent alone (which is extremely rare), or they're very business savvy. The bands that you talk about who don't advertise or market themselves are the ones playing local venues for 10 people and no money until they give up. And they give up because they're asked not to come back, because they can't bring paying customers to the venue.

Also, every band looks for sponsorships wherever they can get them. You'd be surprised how many bands are sponsored by instrument companies without knowing it.

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nonhuman
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Jul 31, 2009, 02:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
You sound like you are very inexperienced with the music industry. The only successful bands in the industry are either immensely talented and can get by on talent alone (which is extremely rare), or they're very business savvy. The bands that you talk about who don't advertise or market themselves are the ones playing local venues for 10 people and no money until they give up. And they give up because they're asked not to come back, because they can't bring paying customers to the venue.
Um, isn't that exactly what I said?

Also, every band looks for sponsorships wherever they can get them. You'd be surprised how many bands are sponsored by instrument companies without knowing it.
If they don't know they're sponsored then obviously they weren't looking to get sponsored, now where they?
     
jokell82
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Jul 31, 2009, 02:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
Um, isn't that exactly what I said?
No. You said it's what bands should be doing, and I'm telling you it's what bands ARE doing.

Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
If they don't know they're sponsored then obviously they weren't looking to get sponsored, now where they?
That *YOU* wouldn't know they were sponsored. That sentence came out wrong.

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nonhuman
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Jul 31, 2009, 03:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
No. You said it's what bands should be doing, and I'm telling you it's what bands ARE doing.
Well yes and no. I was talking more about the small unsigned bands who dream of making it big but then try and rely on nothing other than their talent (which sometimes they have in spades) to fill seats. Or the ones who recognize that there are business aspects of being a musician that must be tended to but want to just offload that on someone else and sign themselves into a stupid contract that results in them getting screwed over.

That *YOU* wouldn't know they were sponsored. That sentence came out wrong.
Ah, gotcha. Makes a little more sense that way.

And I know that bands currently do look for sponsorships, I just think it's a tool that's under utilized and under appreciated (witness Doof's reaction that the fans will abandon the artist who gets sponsorships as a sellout).

I'm the first to admit that I'm not some prophet here to reform the music industry into magical profitability by giving away free ****. However it seems clear to me that the current models that the industry is using are failing or have already failed. The reason for that is not so much piracy per se, but the way in which the digital age has revolutionized the nature and perception of content.

People's expectations about how they will obtain and use their content have changed, and the industry needs to change to follow suit.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jul 31, 2009, 03:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
So don't sign a contract that gives the sponsors that sort of control over your art...

This is what I was talking about when I said that musicians need to also be good businessmen before they can have any reasonable expectation of success.

Also there's no reason for individual artists to be doing this on their own. There's still a place for the labels: as the entity that helps artists find and manage sponsorships and such. Grouping together under labels gives the artists a sort of collective bargaining power, plus allows them to offload some of the business aspects of what they do. But even still, as you rightly point out, they need to be able and willing to understand the business aspects of what they're doing.
In general you are bang on about artists needing to be good businessmen, but I can be a little sympathetic in this case. It is easy to be coerced into a contract and not thinking of having a lawyer look it over for loopholes and exceptions which would give the labels too much power, and it is especially tough when a musician is never guaranteed a better option. It is easy to be seduced by money, and sometimes artists can "outgrow" their contract too.

I never suggested that the labels don't have their uses, but generally speaking the smaller indy labels are going to be more modest about how they assert their control. The smaller labels also have less resources available for sponsorship and heavy promotion and such.

So, my basic point is not anti-sponsorship, but just that it is not without its very big problems.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jul 31, 2009, 03:09 PM
 
Also, instrument sponsors are easy to come by. I know dozens of instrument sponsors, this is hardly game changing though.
     
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Jul 31, 2009, 04:52 PM
 
Problem is not everything can be ad supported. Sure some things can, but the music industry can't be. Now there are a lot of smaller bands that are moving in a direction that is better for them, but it's going to take a while to get there. In the mean time I recommend supporting your local bands, and avoiding big label acts.
     
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Jul 31, 2009, 05:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Salty View Post
Problem is not everything can be ad supported. Sure some things can, but the music industry can't be.
Why not?
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Jul 31, 2009, 06:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Why not?
Because Dave Mustaine would look silly wearing Maybelline.
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Jul 31, 2009, 06:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Because Dave Mustaine would look silly wearing Maybelline.
Yeah, and so would Billie Joe Armstro....oops.
     
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Jul 31, 2009, 07:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Because Dave Mustaine would look silly wearing Maybelline.
But not Wranglers.
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Aug 1, 2009, 12:15 PM
 
So basically, the end game with a sponsorship model would be that the only musicians making any money would be those writing and performing corporate jingles.
     
Chuckit
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Aug 1, 2009, 01:05 PM
 
Much like the only athletes making any money with a corporate sponsorship model are those writing and performing corporate jingles, I suppose.
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Aug 1, 2009, 02:07 PM
 
Well, if you talk major sports, that's not true - the best players get paid tens, even hundreds of millions from the teams they play for. If you talk sports with less monetary demand like, say, swimming, then I guess it's easy to see how corporate sponsorship can negatively impact the performance of the athletes. Michael Phelps can't wear the 'latest and greatest' equipment, and he gets beat. (There's another thread arguing about the implications of that, so no need to go into that here). He's beholden to his corporate sponsor, which is actually impacting the outcomes within the sport.

So I guess sponsorship models are great, if you want corporate interests to invade every aspect of life. I'm not anti-everything-corporate, but there is a time and place for it.
     
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Aug 4, 2009, 01:18 PM
 
who cares? if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

tour, sell *some records*, sell tees and have a good time doing what you love. the moment you hate it... stop and join the rat race. or do something in another creative field like illustration, studio musicianship or design. just don't wine like a little baby.
     
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Aug 5, 2009, 04:28 PM
 
I want to make money by sitting around and doing nothing, but people seem to think that's "irresponsible". It seems this is different for musicians?
     
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Aug 5, 2009, 04:35 PM
 
Musicians do nothing?
     
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Originally Posted by lexapro View Post
I want to make money by sitting around and doing nothing, but people seem to think that's "irresponsible". It seems this is different for musicians?
I think you need to study the issues a bit more. A lot more, actually. Possibly at all.
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Aug 5, 2009, 05:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by lexapro View Post
I want to make money by sitting around and doing nothing, but people seem to think that's "irresponsible". It seems this is different for musicians?
     
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Aug 5, 2009, 05:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Because Dave Mustaine would look silly wearing Maybelline.
Be right back, I just thought of a way Cooper and Snider can make more $$$.
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Aug 5, 2009, 05:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by lexapro View Post
I want to make money by sitting around and doing nothing, but people seem to think that's "irresponsible". It seems this is different for musicians?
If you think that's true you have a lot to learn! Problem is... if you are not a musician you really have no grounds to base your comments on!
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Hey guys, I have a great idea for a future business... We make mats, but not just any kind of mats, we make... wait for it... Jump to conclusion mats! Get it? There will be different conclusions on the mat which you can jump to, so it's a jump to conclusions mat... hehe.. what do you think?
     
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Aug 5, 2009, 06:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by lexapro View Post
I want to make money by sitting around and doing nothing, but people seem to think that's "irresponsible". It seems this is different for musicians?
Here's the deal: create something that people want and will pay for, and you can make money from it. If that something is a 'thing' you can produce and sell, you can indeed 'sit around' (when not doing production work, whatever that may be) and make money. If that something is your time or your labor, you'll have to spend time and/or labor to make money. Either way, stop whining about it!
     
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Aug 5, 2009, 06:26 PM
 
Where is my "I don't give a rat's ass" mat ?

-t
     
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Aug 5, 2009, 06:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by CharlesS View Post


That could not possibly be any less true...
My point is, they signed up well knowing that type of lifestyle that is involved in being a touring musician. You're right, most small bands don't make a lot of money, but they get to travel and they have a job they enjoy doing and have a passion for, which is more than what most people get. I just can't find an ounce of compassion for artists I guess when it comes to this argument.
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Aug 5, 2009, 06:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by sdilley14 View Post
My point is, they signed up well knowing that type of lifestyle that is involved in being a touring musician. You're right, most small bands don't make a lot of money, but they get to travel and they have a job they enjoy doing and have a passion for, which is more than what most people get. I just can't find an ounce of compassion for artists I guess when it comes to this argument.
Most peopleā€¦are incapable of traveling?
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Aug 5, 2009, 06:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by CreepDogg View Post
Here's the deal: create something that people want and will pay for, and you can make money from it. If that something is a 'thing' you can produce and sell, you can indeed 'sit around' (when not doing production work, whatever that may be) and make money. If that something is your time or your labor, you'll have to spend time and/or labor to make money. Either way, stop whining about it!
So we should only be concerned with crafts that can be easily monetized? Would we be better off without all of the professions that struggle to earn money?
     
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Aug 5, 2009, 06:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Would we be better off without all of the professions that struggle to earn money?
Sure looks like it.

Don't chose something for a living that doesn't pay, and then complain and / or expect the general public to finance it.

-t
     
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Aug 5, 2009, 06:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Where is my "I don't give a rat's ass" mat ?

-t

Have you checked your closet?
     
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Aug 5, 2009, 06:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by sdilley14 View Post
My point is, they signed up well knowing that type of lifestyle that is involved in being a touring musician. You're right, most small bands don't make a lot of money, but they get to travel and they have a job they enjoy doing and have a passion for, which is more than what most people get. I just can't find an ounce of compassion for artists I guess when it comes to this argument.
Who is asking for it? Really, where did this come in play?
     
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Aug 5, 2009, 06:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
So we should only be concerned with crafts that can be easily monetized? Would we be better off without all of the professions that struggle to earn money?
If there are people willing to perform those crafts for the money they do pay, then this is irrelevant. If there is no one willing to perform a craft, then either we don't need it or we'll figure out we need to pay more for it, either collectively or individually as the need dictates.
     
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Aug 5, 2009, 06:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Have you checked your closet?
Yes, but I could only find the "I don't give a turtle's ass" mat

-t
     
besson3c  (op)
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Aug 5, 2009, 06:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Sure looks like it.

Don't chose something for a living that doesn't pay, and then complain and / or expect the general public to finance it.

-t

Again, I don't know where you think the complaining is coming into play here?

As far as livings that don't pay, do you have any idea how many things have come out of grant based research and other sponsored/subsidized projects? I'm not saying that there should be no limits, but my point is that some professions can make a shitload of money, some can't. The ones that can't are not inherently less useful/important, unless you think that hitting a ball with a bat is more important than researching cures to diseases and stuff like that?
     
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Aug 5, 2009, 06:58 PM
 
I wish my favorite artists would stop touring and make more records.
     
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Aug 5, 2009, 07:01 PM
 
It seems to me that the musicians are upset that they don't want to get up and actually put in a day's work. Lazy. Unimpressive.
     
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Aug 5, 2009, 07:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by lexapro View Post
It seems to me that the musicians are upset that they don't want to get up and actually put in a day's work. Lazy. Unimpressive.
Do you call making a 400mile round trip for 150GBP lazy and unimpressive??

Do you call hours and hours of practice lazy and unimpressive??

Do you call putting 10,000 hours of hard work before you make a penny lazy???

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Aug 5, 2009, 07:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by richwig83 View Post
Do you call making a 400mile round trip for 150GBP lazy and unimpressive??

Do you call hours and hours of practice lazy and unimpressive??

Do you call putting 10,000 hours of hard work before you make a penny lazy???

Well, yeah.

I mean, in a world where music comes for free from teh intarwebs, who still needs musicians to make that stuff ?

-t
     
Railroader
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Aug 5, 2009, 07:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by lexapro View Post
It seems to me that the musicians are upset that they don't want to get up and actually put in a day's work. Lazy. Unimpressive.
I have a musician friend that is sooo lazy. All he seems to do anymore is go to the doctor. Claims he's in constant pain from Carpal Tunnel Syndrome symptoms in his hands. The Doc claims it's from practicing too much. All he ever did was sit on his butt and practice all the time when he wasn't performing or recording in the studio. Now he's gonna have to find a real job. He's pretty young though, only 35, so going back to school for a new career should be pretty easy. Now he'll be a student and be sitting around and not doing anything at school.

Stupid lazy musicians.

They're not nearly as annoying as forum trolls though.
     
hayesk
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Aug 5, 2009, 07:57 PM
 
I think it's ridiculous to assume musicians should make their money touring, because it leaves out everyone else that contributes to the music. What if you don't write your own music? Shouldn't the writer get paid?

I think people who say musicians should make their money touring are only trying to rationalize and justify their illegal music downloading.
     
Railroader
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Aug 5, 2009, 08:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by hayesk View Post
I think people who say musicians should make their money touring are only trying to rationalize and justify their illegal music downloading.
BINGO!!! We have a winner!
     
lexapro
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Aug 5, 2009, 08:14 PM
 
Seriously? Troll? Is that even allowed to be said? I think it's plainly against the rules.

But the fact stands- too many people are playing too much music that quite simply stinks. They ought to just stop playing and get real jobs. The very talented ones can keep touring and making money, but I won't pay to listen to them on the radio.
     
Railroader
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Aug 5, 2009, 08:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by lexapro View Post
... but I won't pay to listen to them on the radio.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Aug 5, 2009, 11:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Hey guys, I have a great idea for a future business... We make mats, but not just any kind of mats, we make... wait for it... Jump to conclusion mats! Get it? There will be different conclusions on the mat which you can jump to, so it's a jump to conclusions mat... hehe.. what do you think?
I'm assuming this movie reference wasn't over your head?
     
CharlesS
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Aug 5, 2009, 11:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by lexapro View Post
I want to make money by sitting around and doing nothing, but people seem to think that's "irresponsible". It seems this is different for musicians?
Are you sure Lexapro is the only thing you're on?

Ticking sound coming from a .pkg package? Don't let the .bom go off! Inspect it first with Pacifist. Macworld - five mice!
     
 
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