[cowicide]

O
Will this add great GUI functionality in general for those who use a standard Apple one-button mouse?

"Click-n-hold" functionality (For example, the "click-n-hold" option in Fruitmenu (for OS X) and Finderpop (for OS 9).

-------------
[this was sent to apple]

Add "Back" and "Forward" to Safari's contextual menu AND add the option for "click-n-hold" to open said menu.

Those trying to avoid or deal with wrist strain injuries will love you for it. It may even up Apple's ratings for accessibility.

Thank you for considering this
---------------

Here is a quick and dirty mockup here:


A "refresh" option would be nice too and maybe "add page to bookmarks". Also, you should also be able to click-n-hold on website & email links within webpages. It would also be helpful if the last contextual selection is remembered and pops up on that one the next time you click-n-hold (similair the option in Finderpop in OS 9).


BEFORE YOU VOTE: Keep in mind other great applications for click-n-hold. See below in this thread for info on Cocoagestures and click-n-hold activation.

Also, If you have a multi-button mouse, please remember that the overwhelming majority of Apple users do not have them and vote accordingly. I'm asking if this is a great idea "in general", not just a great idea "for you" in particular. Please consider that less mouse movement is a health issue as well. (discussion below)
O

[Adam Betts]

dp

[Adam Betts]

I'm sure something like this can be hacked into Safari easily.

I'd prefer Apple to keep the contextual menu clean though. The contextual menu in Omniweb was pretty bloated, even with simple menu option selected in Preferences.

[sushiism]

for **** sake no, this isnt windows you dont shove every stupid fucntion under the sun in a context menu
plus if you used camino you would be able to hold down the wheel and push up or down to go forwards and backwards

[Powaqqatsi]

Originally posted by sushiism:
plus if you used camino you would be able to hold down the wheel and push up or down to go forwards and backwards

really ? not with my camino.

[cowicide]

Hahaha...

A simple "back" & "forward" hidden in a contextual menu (that currently only has two (2) items in it as of Safari 1.0) wouldn't clutter anything.

Most Apple users don't have a scroll wheel, so that's moot...

Another funny thing... one guy who doesn't "like" this idea brags that he already uses similar functionality in another browser. If it's such a bad idea, why are you using it? Hahaha... Sometimes I think people just disagree with stuff just to hear themselves talk...

Also, this can just be turned OFF by default in the preferences. Those that want to use it, turn it on with optional "click-n-hold" access.

On the other hand, those that love clicking all over the place on large monitors or always having to access the keyboard unnecessarily can do nothing and it won't run.

Good enough?

Look, just forget how much you hate Cow for a minute and vote on the idea by its own merits, ok? hahaha!

Cheers,

Cow

P.S. Seriously consider those with limited mobility and those who want to prevent repetitive stress injuries like myself. Look where your mouse is right now and imagine just being able to "click" then "hold" for a second and slightly move the mouse up and down to choose back and forward from a contextual menu that pops up right under your mouse. That save a lot of unnecessary mouse movement and/or keyboard use. That's good for almost everyone.

Here is a quick and dirty mockup here:

[Adam Betts]

Wow, there's no need for that rude attitude.

Apple don't want to bloat Safari. Simple.

Keyboard shortcuts make more sense for Back and Forward than adding it into contextual menu though.

[edit: explicative word replaced]

[ambush]

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
I'm sure something like this can be hacked into Safari easily.

I'd prefer Apple to keep the contextual menu clean though. The contextual menu in Omniweb was pretty bloated, even with simple menu option selected in Preferences.

Yeah it can be hacked, but no one wants SIMBL/APE hax0rs

well I don't, at least.

[Uncle Skeleton]

if you have a wrist condition and you want more functionality available from the mouse, get one of those 7-button mice. they're really slick

[Angus_D]

No, but gestures would be nice.

[cowicide]

> Angus_D: No, but gestures would be nice.

You can use Cocoa Gestures with Safari right now but only with a modifier key (or two button mouse). They work great overall. If they had an option for click-n-hold-gesture that would kick serious ass.

Right now I hold down the option key and gesture a little to the left or right to go back and forward through webpages... make that process accessible through a click-n-hold & we're on to something!

> Adam Betts: Apple don't want to bloat Safari. Simple.

Is that why they added Tabs? Hahaha... I'm sorry that you are convinced these few small lines of code would create "bloat". You'll have to think of something better. (see Angus_D)

> Adam Betts: Wow, there's no need for that rude attitude.

Adam, you are right... there is no need and you should ask sushiism to chill out with his rude attitude. His comment, "...for **** sake no, this isnt windows you dont shove every stupid fucntion under the sun in a context menu..." was uncalled for. My last post wasn't directed towards you, Adam. Simple.


> Uncle Skeleton: if you have a wrist condition
> get one of those 7-button mice. they're really slick

Thanks Uncle, I don't have a wrist condition. Even after years of work, I've never even gotten remotely sore. I attribute to apps like Finderpop, Scrollability and now in OS X Fruitmenu and MaxiMice. Also using Cocoa Gestures has helped.

The thing is, using either the click-n-hold contextual menu or a click-n-hold gesture would blow away the need (in this case) with the complications (and expense) of a multibutton mouse. It's much cheaper to just distribute this small code than a bunch of hardware.

Like I've said, this would benefit not only those with mobility troubles (and make Apple's accessibility rankings improve) it would help those who have yet to develop problems by preventing repetitive, unnecessary hand/arm/wrist movements.

Thanks for your suggestion, though!

[::maroma::]

That's what my 8-button mouse is for! I have Forward, Back, Next Tab, Previous Tab, Open Link in New Tab, Close Window and Contextual Menu (as well as normal click, of course) all on my mouse! Saves an extra click.

[cowicide]

I got me a 20 button mouse so I can scrunch up, use both hands and my toes.

[Sharky K.]

I got an 78key's mouse... called keyboard

btw http://www.fingerworks.com/ got cool keyboards that could also work as mouse.
Lots of cool stuff

[sushiism]

Originally posted by Powaqqatsi:
really ? not with my camino.

maybe your mouse doesnt register the button being held and scrolled at the same time?
I'm using a logitech traveler by the way.

OOHHH wait
its because my wheel click is set up to doa cmd+opt click
set yours to do that and you too can enjoy this wonderful feature!

[Developer]

Why do you need forwared/backward in the contextual menu? There are always buttons for that available in the toolbar.

[cowicide]

Originally posted by Developer:
Why do you need forwared/backward in the contextual menu? There are always buttons for that available in the toolbar.

That's like asking why do a command-q when you can access it through the toolbar.

You may want to reread some of my posts in this thread if you still don't understand "why". It would be a waste of time to repeat what has already been said.

I think some of you guys should think this through a little more.... throughly... or, at least read what this is all about before jumping on this negative bandwagon. Sheesh...

[Targon]

yes, this pisses me off not having back/forward in the context menu...always have to mouse to the top of the page to hit the buttons in the tool bar or use 2 hands to command+ arrow left/right.

Why only the hard way?

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by cowicide:
> Adam Betts: Apple don't want to bloat Safari. Simple.

Is that why they added Tabs? Hahaha... I'm sorry that you are convinced these few small lines of code would create "bloat". You'll have to think of something better.

What is there to think of something better? Tabs is the MOST REQUESTED FEATURE and they implemented it into later version of Safari.

Back/Forward into contextual menu, on the other hand, isn't most requested feature. People already have more than three ways of going Back/Forward. Here's some examples for YOU:

History Menu>Back
CMD+[ ]
CMD+left arrow / right arrow
NSToolbar
Mouse with preprogrammed buttons

In my opinion, keyboard shortcuts are much faster than using contextual menu.

Originally posted by cowicide:
> Adam Betts: Wow, there's no need for that rude attitude.

Adam, you are right... there is no need and you should ask sushiism to chill out with his rude attitude. His comment, "...for **** sake no, this isnt windows you dont shove every stupid fucntion under the sun in a context menu..." was uncalled for. My last post wasn't directed towards you, Adam. Simple.

I know that post wasn't directed toward me but still your attitude was uncalled for. sushilism's post is perfectly fine but you read too much into it.

[mindwaves]

Everyone behave yourself or YOU WILL take a timeout.

[Decker]

I don't know about you but often when I'm surfing the web I'm leaning back in my chair using just the mouse. Having to lean forward to use a hotkey on the keyboard or moving the mouse to the Back button (21" monitor) is annoying to no end. Why on earth did Apple leave Back and Forward off the contextual menu?? Every other browser on the planet has it for crying out loud. Don't tell me about 2 menu item's "bloating" safari either. Thats the kind of thing people who defend a one button mouse say.

If they ever add Back - Forward functionality to the contextual menu they should make it so that you always get Back and Forward regardless if you are over a picture or not. An ancient version of Netscape used to have that. I miss it.

[foamy]

cowicide, decker....I'm with you. I brought up the same thing on another board (maybe this one, I don't remember or care to look) and I got all the same responses, just with a lot more vitriol.

I can understand not wanting to clutter up the contextual menus, or to have anything essential hidden in them--casual users will never find it there--but to use this as an excuse for not utilizing contextual menus doesn't cut it for me.

Like many people I like surfing without my hands on the keyboard, instead, using my two-button scroll wheel mouse. I don't know about you, but when I'm surfing, the most common place for my mouse is on the page, scrolling, clicking links, etc, NOT anywhere near the back button. I often find myself clicking a link, then realizing that I don't want to read that page and would prefer the previous one. Having been a Camino user until recently (due to the crappy nightlies I switched over to Safari), I would--without moving my mouse--right click, select "back" and let go. Done. If people prefer to move their mice all the way across the screen to the back button, or prefer to lean forward and use some key combination to go back, then so be it, but please let those of use who want a useful CM for Safari live in peace and surfing bliss.

BTW, since the only options in it are "View Source" and "Save Page As", I wonder if Safari was even meant to have a CM at all? Those options seem like ones that might be used by a Safari programmer for debugging. I can imagine Dave Hyatt often needs to see the source of a page, or save it to his Desktop, so he can figure out why Safari isn't rendering said page correctly. I OTOH, don't view the source of pages too often--unless I'm building pages--and I save pages even less often. That said, for those of you that use these options on a regular basis, more power to you. I won't be seeking their removal just because I don't find them useful.

[cowicide]

>

> Adam Betts: In my opinion, keyboard shortcuts are much faster than using contextual menu.

Sigh, it doesn't work like a normal contextual menu. Look, I've used "command / left-arrow, right-arrow" with the best of them, sure it's faster than going all the way up to the top and clicking Safari's arrows, but it's no better than what I propose (especially when you consider how people get repetitive stress injuries).

The thing is, it's nice to just lean back, surf w/o overworking my wrists and constantly leaning in for "keyboard shortcuts" when I can be kicked back using one hand on the mouse to do almost everything just as fast or even faster.

I don't know about you, but I'm kind of a laid back guy (like Decker, for instance) and don't like hunching up on my computer when I surf the web, etc. Also, the fact is, my method is faster when you consider you don't have to take a second to position your fingers for the shortcuts... by the time you do that, I've already click-n-hold'ed and shot back to the previous webpage (and maybe back again).

It may be slightly quicker If you enjoy sitting there with the mouse in one hand while keeping those trigger fingers on your other hand positioned constantly on the "command / left-arrow, right-arrow" keys, but is it worth it? To each his own, I guess...

Keep in mind, (thanks to Angus_D) we are also now talking about Gestures here... not just the navigational click-n-hold contextual menus I've proposed. BTW, not sure if you understand, but click-n-hold means NO modifier key.... just a mouse-click that you hold for less than a second (or whatever timeframe you prefer).

If you can use a Cocoa Gesture adapted to use click-n-hold, then you'd really look kinda silly still using your old fashioned, slower, strained keyboard shortcuts. It would be similiar to when you observe a newbie using the Apple menu for everything instead of learning the shortcuts... painful to watch and a little embarrassing.

The great thing is this can all be done with only a little bit of code and Apple doesn't have to ship out new hardware. Saves everyone money and more importantly, their health. Instead of risking repetitive strain and looking uncool, they can get up off their keyboard when they surf the web... stretch those legs out, kick back... relax.... enjoy.... and they don't even have to buy a new mouse. Save the money and go outside and have fun.

> Adam Betts: sushilism's post is perfectly fine

Right of the bat, Didn't he say something like this: "for [expletive] sake no, this isnt windows you dont shove every stupid fucntion under the sun in a context menu" ?

That may be "perfectly fine" with you, but It's not with me. The tone and attitude was unwarranted. All I did was suggest what I think would be a great GUI function for Safari and you guys come at me like I slapped your mothers around or something. Let's keep things in prospective, ok guys? Hahaha... You know what, I really don't care and would like to just drop it, ok?

mindwaves, thanks for stepping in. I really would just like a good natured exchange about this concept considering this idea could really help those with limited mobility who already own a standard one-button mouse (most Mac users have this as you know). Not to mention, help prevent repetitive stress injuries for those without problems (yet).

It would seem 2 people on this board need to get out and get some more sun and enjoy life so they won't find the need to get such an attitude about such an innocuous suggestion.

Anyway, if anyone has any constructive criticism (thanks Angus_D) or votes of confidence (thanks Decker, foamy, etc.) it would be greatly appreciated. Think about the children.


Now, on to the stuff that actually matters to me here....


NOTE: Angus_D, I've sent off an email to the dev of Cocoa Gestures and asked that they let it respond to click-n-hold similar the same option in Fruitmenu (OS X) and Finderpop (OS 9).

Then in Safari you could just click the mouse button and hold (time optional like Fruitmenu, etc.)... then your cursor would change instantly to the red "G" (as it does now in Cocoa Gestures with the modifier key depressed & mouse button down) and move your mouse a little right to go forward or a little left to go to the previous webpage. It would all happen in less than a second (as it does now with a modifier key).

Currently I use Cocoa Gestures with the "option" key as my modifier key with these patterns:

Minimal gesture size = 15 pixels
Abort gesture after = 500 milliseconds without move

L = History/Back
R = History/ Forward
RL = History/Home
UD = File/New Tab
DU = File/Close Tab
UDL = Window/Select Previous Tab
UDR = Window/Select Next Tab

I've tried using gestures to open commonly accessed webpages, but those particular functions don't seem to stick for very long in Cocoa Gestures. As gesture interface popularity increases (and it will) and even the sticks in the mud start using it... there will eventually be better functionality and competition for gesture apps in OS X and this will improve.

Anyway, imagine If they make Cocoa Gestures click-n-hold and how cool that would be to use with just any old one button mouse and no keyboard. People will eventually come around and LOVE it.

TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN: If you "get" this... please email the author of Cocoa Gestures and make the click-n-hold request if you get a chance; you won't regret it.(and neither will people with limited mobility and your own wrists, for that matter.)

http://www.bitart.com/CocoaGestures.html

Cow Tip: Get the freeware MouseZoom if you have a large, high-res monitor. Quit dragging that slow, short distanced mouse all over your mousepad. Just turn MouseZoom down when/if you work in Photoshop, etc. Believe me, after you use it you'll hate working on OS X computers (with high-res, large screens) without it.

http://homepage.mac.com/bhines/mousezoom.html


Have a good night all (even the stinkers)

>

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by cowicide:
It would seem 2 people on this board need to get out and get some more sun and enjoy life so they won't find the need to get such an attitude about such an innocuous suggestion.

All of suddendly you dislike me because I happened to think that sushiism's post isn't that harsh? Yeah, that show how mature you are

It's interesting that you want to share you opinion about why it's good to have Back/Forward in CM but refused to understand our side of why it wouldn't be a good idea.

mindwaves, you're not being clear on who your post are directed to. cowicide thought that you are supporting him. You could be a little more professional than that

p.s. A friendly advice for cowicide, you could use quote tag properly by using this vB Code: <.quote>your message here<./quote> (remove the period before using it)

Bam! You'll get something like this:

Originally posted by cowicide:
I think putting Back/Forward in Contextual Menu smells of ass.. way more than cow's ass.*

*-This is meant to be taken with a sense of humor

[nobitacu]

I think this would be a cool idea, but it is not needed at all. In Safari, you can hit command+ left or right arrow key to go back and forward. I won't really need it because I am using a very nice Logitech mouse that has those buttoms right on the mouse.

Ming

[cowicide]

RE: Adam Betts

> All of suddendly you dislike me because I happened to think that sushiism's post isn't that harsh?

I don't dislike you or sushi, I don't know either of you well enough to "dislike" either of you. I just call out attitude and hypocrisy where I see it. The fact that you think sushiism's (unwarranted) expletive added, insulting slam was not "harsh", yet at the same time find my followup to his vitriol parallel to beating your mom against the wall is silly. Sushi was out of line.... you know it and I know it. Drop it, let's moove on, ok? Even Sushi doesn't care at this point, nor do I... Go outside, get some fresh air... quit hunching... whatever....

> A friendly advice for cowicide, you could use quote tag properly by using this vB Code:

I'm very impressed with your tight vB Code hacking skillz... hahaha... but, sorry... I prefer my "improper" format because it doesn't use any wasted white space like the quote tag uses. Means less scrolling for everyone... and less "clutter", if you will. I've been just adding a nice deep blue #000099 to each... I think most find it quite readable. To each his own, I guess.

Anyway...

As far as my stinky cow ass goes, I'm glad you have a good sense of cow humor... it's appreciated.
[meanwhile, cow scrapes itchy, stinky ass against Adam's favorite couch and runs back out to the barn]



>

[cowicide]

RE: nobitacu

> I think this would be a cool idea, but it is not needed at all.
> In Safari, you can hit command+ left or right arrow key to go back and forward.

I don't think you've read much of this thread. We are all well aware of the keyboard shortcuts. This trumps that for various reasons already explained above in this thread. I think if you peruse this thread, you might strongly reconsider that this is "not needed at all".

> I won't really need it because I am using a very nice Logitech
> mouse that has those buttoms right on the mouse.

Well, 97% of Mac users with a standard Apple mouse might need it. I asked if it was a great idea "in general", not just a great idea "for you". Anyway, I appreciate your input, nobitacu.
_

[Eddies in the aether]

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
Wow, there's no need for that rude attitude.

Apple don't want to bloat Safari. Simple.

Keyboard shortcuts make more sense for Back and Forward than adding it into contextual menu though.

[edit: explicative word replaced]

Balls, if you dont like contexual menus no one is going to force you to use them. Choice is good.

[OAW]

Back and Forward in the Safari contextual menu is a good thing. Click and hold to bring up the contextual menu is a good thing. In fact, this latter feature should be system wide IMO.

OAW

Edit: Besides, I'm a helluva lot more likely to use Back, Forward, Reload Page, and Bookmark Page in a contextual menu than View Source and Save Page As.

[Judge_Fire]

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
History Menu>Back
CMD+[ ]
CMD+left arrow / right arrow
NSToolbar
Mouse with preprogrammed buttons

And the biggest backwards pointing key on the keyboard, Backspace, too.

Wouldn't mind a customizable contextual menu, though.

J

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by Judge_Fire:
And the biggest backwards pointing key on the keyboard, Backspace, too.

Good catch!

OAW bring up a good point.. Back/Forward in contextual menu would be more useful than View Source and Save Page As...

[cowicide]

> Judge_Fire: Wouldn't mind a customizable contextual menu, though.

That would be sweet, make the contextual menu options as bare or as advanced as you need it.

Someone else mentioned Apple should make click-n-hold a system wide option. That's another great idea.

Very Mac-like... off-the-shelf ease of use while still giving power users the options they need. It would be yet another reason to choose OS X over Windows.

[IamBob]

Joining late...

I think back/forward in the CM would be great and agree that it would be more useful than what's there now. System wide click-n-hold could be useful too.

As far as personal habits go, I tend to keep my mouse near the upper-left since I got a scrollwheel mouse. This lets me access the toolbars with little mouse movement. A lot of the sites I visit use a left-aligned navigation table so hovering in the upper-left helps there too.

Since we're talking Safari enhancements...

option+scrollwheel to scroll a page's worth would be handy. (yes/no?)

SomeModifier+scrollwheel to switch tabs. (yes/no?)

Just 2 off the top of my head.

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by IamBob:
SomeModifier+scrollwheel to switch tabs. (yes/no?)

Oh that would be so cool! Submit it to Mac OS X Feedback

[Nonsuch]

Originally posted by IamBob:
SomeModifier+scrollwheel to switch tabs. (yes/no?)

Safari could do a lot more to make tab navigation easier. Your idea is a good start. They also should allow you to rearrange tabs in the browser window, and closing a tab should take you back to the tab you last viewed, not the one to the left. Oh yeah, and they should have "open in background" as a CM option like Opera does. Yeah. That'd make me happy.

[cowicide]

-

> Nonsuch : They also should allow you to rearrange tabs in the browser window

I've always wondered why you can't do that with Tabs. Not to mention switching between Tab folders without having to close another one would be much more like how the rest of the Mac OS and other applications function.

While we're at it.. how about being able to set a "homepage" for a new Tab? Don't want one? Make your Tab "homepage" a blank page (like it is now) or have a contextual click-n-hold option to open the current new Tab as a blank page (instead of your predefined Tabs "homepage")...

Maybe Safari 1.1 or 1.5.... we'll start to see smarter/more mac-like options, I hope.

-

[Dale Sorel]

Cocoa Gestures...two button mouse...right-click drag left to go back...right click drag right to go forward...works for me

[Kissargi]

id rather have a download using speeddownload option than that in my menu, just buy a multi button mouse if it bothers u that much

[cowicide]

O
UPDATE: Click-n-hold gestures planned!

The developer says the follow-up application for Cocoagestures called CocoaSuite (http://www.cocoasuite.com/beta.html) is coming out in a few days. While it still doesn't do click-n-hold, he plans on supporting it for the next version!

OMG!! Yes!

BTW, I recently showed Cocoagestures on my laptop at the Apple Store and everyone loved how I navigated through webpages, created tabs, etc. with simple mouse moves (gestures). When I told them we all might be able to do this with with click-n-hold activation, they flipped! Ha!Ha!

Many at the store agreed "click-n-hold-gesture" will eventually become a standard way to navigate via Safari on the Mac OS (not to mention almost every other app AND the Mac OS eventually)

This will "explain" why Apple has only offered a one-button mouse all these years, huh? Hahaha....

BTW, I should mention that the Cocoagestures dev basically said that click-n-hold activation is being brought on by popular demand. So, I see that I'm not alone in my desire for this functionality.

Please support these guys and email them a vote of confidence for click-n-hold implementation, or better yet... get a license from them.
O

[cowicide]

O
> Kissargi: just buy a multi button mouse if it bothers u that much

> Dale Sorel Cocoa Gestures...two button mouse...right-click drag left to go back...right click drag right to go forward...

Sigh... No offense, but when are some people going to start reading the threads before commenting on them? Hahaha....
O

[cowicide]

*deleted*

[cowicide]

Apparently Apple is noticing how cool Gestures are and implementing them now:

I have a strong suspicion we'll be seeing more and more gesture integration (similar to Cocoa Gestures) into Apple products including the OS itself. So far, Apple uses gestures for Expose controls, but this stuff below shows they realize the speed and power of gestures in a more advanced application of them...



Gestures

Keep your eyes up by controlling Motion using gestures, instead of the keyboard and mouse. Using a pen and tablet, you can control Motion with one hand tied behind your back. For example, a rightward swipe moves Motion ahead 10 frames; a greater-than arrow plays the timeline. Forty unique gestures will help your sessions sail along.


http://www.apple.com/motion/advanced.html


Your children will use gestures, your children's children will use gestures... why don't you?

[RooneyX]

Pocket PC has click and hold. It works well for handhelds and tablets.

[MindFad]

All I want is "Copy Image Location." And for this strange scrolling performance bug to be fixed.

[saranwarp]

Originally posted by MindFad:
All I want is "Copy Image Location."

[Mediaman_12]

Originally posted by MindFad:
All I want is "Copy Image Location."

This is somthing that really should be in the contextual menu.

[moonmonkey]

"Click-n-hold" functionality (For example, the "click-n-hold" option in Fruitmenu (for OS X) and Finderpop (for OS 9). [/B]

This should be a System option, not Safari

Back and forward in a contextual menu would be silly.

[cowicide]

> Back and forward in a contextual menu would be silly.

It used to be in Netscape or was it IE?, it's nice if you have a standard one-button Apple mouse and finderpop in OS 9. Click-n-hold, then back/forward pops up, quick choice, let go of button, done. If faster and smarter is silly, then I'll be silly.

Right now I use Cocoa Gestures and I don't need this, but I have a 3 button mouse. For those who don't want to spend more money or mess with a 3 button, this isn't "silly" at all.

----