[Mac Zealot]

Man. I didn't even bother to read the rest of the posts because my answer came up instantly.

I am in the exact same boat as you dude, I have a g4 that has more problems than any other PC I've ever had and is noisier than some MDD g4s I've seen.

Anyway, do what you can, if you want a computer replaced or someone else does, be aware that it's a LOOOOOOOONG afair. I wanted mine replaced about 4 days after I bought it and i'm *STILL* fighting with apple to get them to replace it.

It's soooooooo hard. what can I say? I'm not buying another mac again. Too bad, the OS is my favorite and all

[itai195]

Your situation is unfortunate, and I wish you luck in getting everything in order. On the other hand, I have enough experience with multiple PC manufacturers to say that, in my opinion, you can get a dud from anybody. In general I still find Apple's quality control to be a notch above the rest, and their customer support blows most others (except IBM) out of the water.

[FlashGordon]

Good riddance I say to you. We have enough cry babies who whine about a 2 year old machine that has a bad CD drive. You should have gotten AppleCare or you should buy the part and install it yourself. Computer repair is all labor, just like cars.

Enjoy your windows world, and tell your buddies to do the same.

By the way PC's NEVER break down...hahahahahahaha.

[shatten22]

Originally posted by Icruise:
Hmm. What exactly did you mean by "Quality is down. [snip] But many of us won't take it anymore; look at their sales of PowerMacs recently."

If that isn't implying causality, I don't know what is.

Here was my basic thread of thought (and writing)

Yes, quality is down--->Apple fans deal with that and alot of other crap because they are Apple fanatics--->Look at the Powermacs, no one is buying them, super low sales because people know that a faster technology is around the corner and they won't buy Apple's crippled shite (and by crippled now, I specifically point to DDR Ram - it isn't used to its' full potential.).

Basically, as I said before, the sentence right after the one you responded to clarified the former. Clarifying the exact same point you made in your follow-up post.

ok?



god, i love that brick guy.

[mmurray]

Originally posted by FlashGordon:
Good riddance I say to you. We have enough cry babies who whine about a 2 year old machine that has a bad CD drive. You should have gotten AppleCare or you should buy the part and install it yourself. Computer repair is all labor, just like cars.

Enjoy your windows world, and tell your buddies to do the same.

By the way PC's NEVER break down...hahahahahahaha.

He didn't say he was leaving Apple he said that he was cancelling his order because he had to spend the money on repairing his iBook.

BTW I have a read a lot of stuff about problems with Apple Europe. That may be some of the issue here.

Michael

[MickS]

Originally posted by shatten22:
Yes, quality is down--->Apple fans deal with that and alot of other crap because they are Apple fanatics--->Look at the Powermacs, no one is buying them, super low sales because people know that a faster technology is around the corner and they won't buy Apple's crippled shite (and by crippled now, I specifically point to DDR Ram - it isn't used to its' full potential.).

A reduction in quality isn't an Apple phenomena. This has happened across the computer industry and is driven in part by the consumers. We all demand that we should get more for less money. Someone brings out a lower quality product for less money and it sells, it doesn't matter that it won't last as long. This is the age of the consumer, we expect things to fail after time. Why should the manufacturers spend money to use quality parts that will last 10 years if the useful life of the product is 3-5?

I remember buying a new SE/30 and Imagewriter II with education discount. This was the most expensive computer I have ever bought. It cost more than my loaded 667 VGA TiBook (in cash spent terms nevermind inflation). The SE/30 is still running, I'm not sure that the TiBook will last as long. I did buy a substantially better computer for a much lower price, would I rather my TiBook be much better engineered and cost twice as much. No. You pay your money and make your choice.

Cheap sells. Apple are constantly being told that they are too expensive, so they cut the component quality and move production to countries with lower labour costs. The end result is lower quality but a cheaper price. That said I've spent time working with people using Dell laptops, you want to look at bad quality, there is a reason they cost half the price.

[shatten22]

Originally posted by MickS:
Cheap sells. Apple are constantly being told that they are too expensive, so they cut the component quality and move production to countries with lower labour costs. The end result is lower quality but a cheaper price. That said I've spent time working with people using Dell laptops, you want to look at bad quality, there is a reason they cost half the price.

I heard that. It is across the board. Try getting a new roof put on your house that'll last longer than 15 years (if that). I will even go as far as saying that the products we buy now are engineered to fail within a certain amount of time. Hell, the batteries put in our components are. Take the iPod for example. Apple released a product that has a battery that they know will degrade in performance and possibly fail after three years. Is it user-replaceable? Of course not. Same thing happened with the Compaq's iPaqs a few years ago. Damn things couldn't hold a charge after a year's use. If you forgot to plug it in for a week, the batteries died - completely. Compaq wanted the price of the unit to install the SAME battery.

The only things "disposable", (i.e., only good for a limited time) that I feel happy about purchasing are clothes at H&M. The pants cost 15 bucks, they last for 12 months and then I throw them away (they are now unwearable) and go pick up a new pair of the latest fashion for the same price. At least I know what I am getting into at a price that is reasonable. When you spend Apple bucks though, you hope for it to last a lifetime. I don't think my Tibook will ever NOT be useful to me in SOME way...

g

[icruise]

Originally posted by shatten22:
When you spend Apple bucks though, you hope for it to last a lifetime. I don't think my Tibook will ever NOT be useful to me in SOME way...

I think a lifetime is a bit of an overstatement. Just think of the computers released only 20 years ago -- there are very few people who are getting legitimate use out of them. A few may use them occasionally for nostalgia or whatever, but the number of people actively doing word processing etc on, say, the original IBM PC or Apple II is pretty small. While the may still function just as well as when they were new, there are so many better alternatives out there that it doesn't make sense to go on using them.

Admittedly the technology has progressed a long way since then and the computers of today are capable of an incredible number of things that would have been thought of as science fiction back then, but I have a feeling that in 10 or 15 years we will look back on the computers of today as being rather quaint.

I'm not so sure that computers in general are being built with lower quality components than they used to be, although it is probably true that quality control in some cases has suffered. Still, most computers still long outlast their usefulness (to the average person anyway).

[g. olson]

Even Macs are an aggregation of hundreds of third party manufactured components, some of which are not going to meet quality control standards. A truly faulty component, one which fails with above average frequency, has been rare indeed. Even so, "quality" is more than just the absence of problems or breakdowns. It is in the attention to detail, the addition of unexpected cool features, exceptional industrial design, etc.

If there is one thing that we know about Steve Jobs it is that he is a quality fanatic. He has a single-minded vision that goes way beyond the quarterly bottom line returns that drive many companies. Not everyone appreciates or agrees with how Steve runs his company, and Apple's stock price reflects that (they stubbornly refuse to cut R&D spending to enhance profitability, for example.) If Apple wanted to truly compete on price, what would be the result? A Dell (which was the direction Apple was going before Steve's return.)

The premium we pay for Apple products is not just for their reliability, which is certainly above average, but for a "quality" product in the broader sense of the word.

[Moderator]

Originally posted by Parky:
Here is an email I have just sent to Steve Jobs :-

Dear Mr Jobs,

I am writing this email to tell you that I today cancelled an order for one of your new 12 inch PowerBooks.
I watched you launch the new machines via the Quicktime stream on the 7th Jan and I ordered one from the UK Apple store right away. My order number is XXXXXX. It was a fully loaded machine, 640MB and Airport Extreme, I was very excited.

But since then I have become an unhappy Apple customer.

It has nothing to do with my PowerBook order, it concerns the quality of the products I and my friends already own :-

1. I have an iBook (366Mhz Indigo model), which is nearly 2 years old, it is very under used as I have a FP iMac at home and only use the iBook for the odd bit of work away from home. It looks and feels brand new. This week on the 9th Jan the CD drive in the iBook stopped working, quite a problem and surprising as it has been used so little. I have only really used the CD drive to load software updates or the odd CD for music. It has had very little use. So I took the iBook in for repair to the Apple Centre Warrington, which I am told will cost �340. How can this be, when a new, better, faster and smaller iBook only costs �799 !!! Why does this under used machine need a �340 fixed price repair. Will it come back in full working order, will it be undamaged and in the same pristine condition it left in? Only time will tell as it has not yet been returned to me.

2. I recommended to my friends that they 'switch', so they bough a FP iMac 800Mhz SuperDrive in May 2002. The first one they got was DOA, and was replaced by the shop (John Lewis). The one they have now has just been in to AppleCare for repair due to a faulty logic board / display card. It has now come back with even more faults. The Modem disconnects all the time (was OK before), the system locks up and cannot be rebooted, the mouse is unresponsive, the sound is faulty, etc. It now has to go for another repair in the same week that it returned from AppleCare. My friends sent me an email which said they were going to get rid of it and buy a proper machine. This has really embarrassed me and has made them very angry Apple customers.

This is why I have cancelled my order, I don't feel that the quality of the products being produced is up to the standard I or my friends would expect from a 'premium priced' manufacturer.

I have owned many Apple products in the past, and I am a person who looks after my property very well, all my machines have looked like new when I have either sold them or passed them on to friends.

I own or have owned :-

Apple Classic - no faults
Apple LCII - no faults
Apple Performa 5200 - faulty cable, caused screen problems, a known issue
Bondi iMac - no faults
StyleWriter 2 - no faults
Newton (first model) - no faults
iMac DV Special Edition - new modem, new logic board, repaired twice
iBook Indigo (airport) - faulty CD drive, in for repair
iMac FP 800 (airport) - no problems so far
5GB iPod and 20GB iPod - OK so far

As you can see I have been a big supporter of Apple, I have always bought software updates (OS8, OS9, X beta, X.1, X.2), joined .Mac, ordered iLife, etc, etc, etc.

I don't expect you to do anything about this, but i just thought it was worth bringing it to you attention that you are loosing a very loyal customer due to bad quality control, and customer care.
You are also loosing a new switcher customer, who is taking his iMac back and getting a refund to spend on a Sony laptop.

It's not what I wanted to happen, and I am very sad that I am not going to be getting my new PowerBook. I did not plan to spend �340 to get the iBook fixed, especially as I was going to give it to my parents, which I now won't do I will need to keep it. I am also worried about spending �1600 on a machine that I could have technical problems with (based on past experience).

Thank you for taking the time to read this,

Yours faithfully,

Ian Parkinson

Cut to the chase man, this is dreadfully boring. Use bullets or some sh!t.

Plus, you're listing all this Apple hardware and software you own, sounds like SJ has you right where he wants you.

[Troll]

I have to cast my lot with Parky on this one. Faulty components are not as rare as people think at Apple. I've had a number of problems that a LOT of people had that suggested to me bad design or bad build. They weren't isolated incidents.

1) iMac DV - just like Parky I had to have the Logic board replaced. Also had the video board replaced and two hard drives! All within a year. If you do a search of the iMac forum, you'll find that these problems are widespread.

2) Flatpanel iMac - friends of mine ordered one on my recommendation and it arrived DOA too! It turned out to be that problem with the PMU that soooooo many people had. Luckily they solved it themselves. Apple sent them a confidential memorandum admitting the fault and setting out the solution), but it wasn't nice for them to have to open the machine up and mess around with it and it kind of put the iMac on the back foot in their household.

3) My TiBook has a number of issues at the moment - power cutouts, fan issues, squeaking Safari - all of which numerous people are experiencing.

4) The eMacs. I know 3 people who bought one and had their screens curl up. I even saw one on display in a shop that had this problem! Macbidouille says the return rate on eMacs in France is over 60%!!Apple should recall these machines.

I'm not sure you'll get away from the problems by going over to the dark side, Parky, but the dark side do seem to have longer warrantees and the dark side tend to admit problems more readily than Apple does.

[shatten22]

Originally posted by Icruise:
I think a lifetime is a bit of an overstatement. Just think of the computers released only 20 years ago -- there are very few people who are getting legitimate use out of them.

Never in the life of my 386 sx/16 or Apple Classic, did I ever go ,"damn that screen is beautiful" or "I love the design of this computer." I could absolutely see using my Powerbook as a Photo display or Mp12 server. I truly believe that even when we are walking around with circuitry imbedded in our skin and holo displays on our walls there will be some use for this Powerbook. If nothing, then for a quaint value of "hey Timmy, watch this..." The question is whether it will last that long. My dad has audio equipment from the 60's-70's that still works and sounds great (he has a stand-up record (the small kind - I forget which; too early for me) player from the 30's that still works. And that stuff has never needed servicing. Sure there is more technology on the macs, but I don't think its an excuse for its lack of longevity. My Mom's Quadra 840 AV was never turned off since she bought it new and only died when water was poured on the motherboard. Even then it didn't "die" the mouse just stopped working. My tibook, which I baby, has needed two new hard drives, a new hinge, and battery-bay reworkings.

BTW, Tekserve here in NYC (I hate the store, but..) still uses 4-8 Mac Classics as number counters.

g

[JasonPro]

I'm a "switcher" that has owned and built many pc's. I bought my first Mac PowerBook G4 w/ superdrive less than a month ago. Already I've discovered that for some reason when pressure is applied to the bottom of the computer the lcd panel freaks out (strange lines scroll across it) and the computer locks up. I discovered this when I bought a stand for it that just happend to have a foam pad right on one of these "pressure points" on the bottom of the case. When I brought it in to the apple store where I purchased that laptop the guy who assisted me was able to easily reproduce the problem and we couldn't reproduce the problem on other working models in the store. He tried to open the back and take a look for loose cables and such but since he didn't see anything obvious it had to be sent to apple service. When he's checking it over he finds this dent along the back of the laptop (along the cylindrical bar at the bottom of the lcd display). First of all, I had noticed the dent weeks before and it was so small that I didn't even know if it had come that way or not. Since it was something I wasn't worried about I just blew it off. I figured that if I had caused it, it probably happend by taking the laptop out and bumping the back edge up against my desk accidentally while placing it on my desk. This service guy in the store goes nuts on me telling me that well if this is the cause of the problem then it's not covered and you'll have to pay about $1000 to have the whole screen replaced. This doesn't make any sense to me since the problem is on the bottom of the laptop ON THE OTHER END from this dent which I'm positive has absolutely nothing to do with the problem. Basically I think this service guy was acusing me of dropping the thing or something which in that case wouldn't the dent be on a corner of the laptop but anyway... Then the guy was like "well, do you still want to send it in" basically implying that apple was going to charge me no matter what. I couldn't believe it. I had it sent in and if apple does charge me I will definetely be demanding a refund on the applecare plan I purchased and I will never buy another apple product again. I have a 5 year old sony 505 superslim laptop that has never died on me. I am a university student that walks everywhere and keeps my laptop in my backpack all the time. I've even slipped on ice and fallen on my backpack once and the sony was completely fine. I have the unsettling feeling that if anything like that happens with my new Ti that it would be completely destroyed. I'm a very confused switcher at this point. I don't know whether the guy that I talked to was just an idiot or whether all of apple is like that. I beginning the think that I shouldn't have been sucked in to unix on cool laptop with a great gui with no extra configuration so easily and just bought a nice pc laptop and spent two weeks configuring linux instead.

--
Jason Protheroe

[Toyin]

I've been following this thread with some interest.
1st of all, components are several 100 times more complex than components 20years ago. Have you opened up an Apple ][ plus recently? Electronics across the board have been more unreliable (ie my 10yr old cordless phone works great while the one I bought a few months ago is going down the tubes) This is probably because technology is advancing faster than quality control and it's not worth it to invest in a production process that might change completely in a year or two.

The comment about the dent being on the other side of the computer is pretty significant.
1) There was an impact to the unit enough to dent the titanium. There's no way that every component in the unit didn't get a serious jolt.
2) The tibook is pretty small for a laptop. There isn't a hell of a lot of space for components to move. The space taken up by the dent has to be made up somewhere (probably on the opposite side if all the components inbetween have no space).

I've never owned a laptop so maybe my view is naive. When I get my 12" PB maybe I'll have a little more insight.

[shatten22]

Originally posted by Toyin:
I've been following this thread with some interest.
1st of all, components are several 100 times more complex than components 20years ago. Have you opened up an Apple ][ plus recently? Electronics across the board have been more unreliable (ie my 10yr old cordless phone works great while the one I bought a few months ago is going down the tubes) This is probably because technology is advancing faster than quality control and it's not worth it to invest in a production process that might change completely in a year or two.

Exactly right, but this shouldn't be taken for granted. We, as consumers, should make sure that our money is going to well-built products. Accepting that this is the way things are will just promote crappier products to emerge. The problem is finding a way to combat this. Unfortunately I don't have a solution.

The comment about the dent being on the other side of the computer is pretty significant.
1) There was an impact to the unit enough to dent the titanium. There's no way that every component in the unit didn't get a serious jolt.
2) The tibook is pretty small for a laptop. There isn't a hell of a lot of space for components to move. The space taken up by the dent has to be made up somewhere (probably on the opposite side if all the components inbetween have no space).

I've never owned a laptop so maybe my view is naive. When I get my 12" PB maybe I'll have a little more insight.

The point is, perhaps the dent was there to begin with. I am not saying Apple should fix everything that comes their way, but something like this they should. A portable is supposed to be just that: portable. If it is handled with reasonable care, and just from every day use it begins to deteriorate, then that should be Apple's responsibility. My Tibook had the upper part of its outer border (near the hinge)cracked and bent upwards; obviously from the pressure placed on it from opening and closing the laptop. It took a little bit of time talking to Apple about it, but they finally agreed to fix it for nothing. I'm glad they did. If they didn't I would have been furious. And with the amount of time they took to decide (and the tone of my rep's voice) I could tell they were close to not fixing it. In this case, the several computers I had registered with them must have helped, but who knows? Point is, they are not doing us a favor. They are providing a product and service we pay for, and we should get our money's worth.

g

[Nebrie]

Originally posted by Parky:
I have not idea if Sony is any better or any worse.

It could be either, all I am sure of is the quality and service we have had from Apple, and it's not good in our experience.

You learn as you go on, if they have problems with Sony then that's the way it is. One thing is for certain, many people would call them stupid if they continued to use Apple products with all the problems they have had.

They pay their money, they take their choice, simple.

Sony laptops, better? hah. They're worse. Way worse. If you actually carry yours around, you'll be lucky if it's in one piece after a year or a year and a half. Happened not just to me but a lot of people around me too.

[CheesePuff]

Originally posted by Mac Zealot:
Man. I didn't even bother to read the rest of the posts because my answer came up instantly.

I am in the exact same boat as you dude, I have a g4 that has more problems than any other PC I've ever had and is noisier than some MDD g4s I've seen.

Anyway, do what you can, if you want a computer replaced or someone else does, be aware that it's a LOOOOOOOONG afair. I wanted mine replaced about 4 days after I bought it and i'm *STILL* fighting with apple to get them to replace it.

It's soooooooo hard. what can I say? I'm not buying another mac again. Too bad, the OS is my favorite and all

I have purchased a Performa 630 CD, Power Mac 7100/80, iMac DV 400 MHz, Power Mac G4 733, Power Mac G4 800 and a PowerBook G4 1 GHz - all of them have worked perfectly, never had to call tech support on one of them, and all still work today.

[itai195]

Originally posted by shatten22:
My dad has audio equipment from the 60's-70's that still works and sounds great (he has a stand-up record (the small kind - I forget which; too early for me) player from the 30's that still works. And that stuff has never needed servicing. Sure there is more technology on the macs, but I don't think its an excuse for its lack of longevity.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, computers are not consumer electronics. You cannot apply the same standard.

Laptops are fragile and break often. That's reality. I've had laptops from multiple manufacturers, and they all break once in a while.

[Mac Zealot]

Lemme point out some things:


Macs are computers, made by an OEM company, just like all other OEM computers, thus they are made of nearly the same parts that will break just as easy.

When the market becomes throwaway, it's throwaway computers you're buying, no matter who you buy from.

You buy an ibook today, in 3 years you can't do much more than sell it, this is the same with imacs, powerbooks, and the like.

Powermacs, however, are some of the most upgradable machines I've ever seen. You can take a 2 year old powermac and make it new with a cpu upgrade, which is great.

Those who haven't experienced problems shouldn't call people who have them crybabies, as the expectation of everything being perfect gets high enough where when it ISN'T perfect, there's a huge problem.

So you make the standards up, if you want to insist that every product with an apple on it in this world is perfect, then deal with the people who don't get perfect things.

Anyway, I've come up with one way to solve my problems, unfortunately, however, I don't think they should have to come out of my pocket because I bought a computer that has many defective parts. I don't think I should have to pay to transport this heavy POS around because it doesn't work right, as cheaper POSes from dell get free onsite work, and etc.

Conclusion: There's such a thing as a bad computer, and I don't give a sh!t about your "not consumer electronics" thing because if you want to go into TVs and such, you could replace things in them part by part as well you insensible nimrod.

So meh, more food for the damn zealots

I am glad to hear, however, about people who have had many perfect macs. I want to say the same thing in the future myself

[shatten22]

Originally posted by itai195:
I've said it before and I'll say it again, computers are not consumer electronics. You cannot apply the same standard.

Laptops are fragile and break often. That's reality. I've had laptops from multiple manufacturers, and they all break once in a while.

I think that's bunk. If laptops and imacs aren't now consumer electronics I don't know what else is. Jobs wouldn't know either, since his whole "digital hub" ramble wouldn't be applicable. Everybody is aiming for their product to be the next consumer phenom; the next TV. Gates wants it, Jobs wants it.

That isn't the argument. The argument is when you are spending large flow for a prosumer item, like a powerbook or a top of the line ibook - that stuff needs to just work. period. If it gets crapped up down the line and it isn't your fault, they need to fix it because it is a flaw in their build quality. Especially if numerous other consumers are reporting the same problem. Apple should be responsible about that. Especially when they imply that they are a different experience from the rest of the computing world.

The best is when those summer of 2000 imacs came out and after constant use a batch of them exhibited that screen warble/flicker problem that has been plagueing those eMacs now in vast majority. Many people were out of warranty by the time their macs started to break down. Apple basically told those people (myself included) tough luck. It didn't happen to every single one (it's true, we had another one with no problems) so they weren't responsible for recalling them.

g

[itai195]

Sorry, I don't agree. Computers don't always "just work." My relation to consumer electronics is perfectly relevant. People who expect computers to work as well as their TVs are being unrealistic. You can't apply the same standard to computers, just as you can't apply it to automobiles, homes, appliances, etc. Apple is not the only company with this kind of policy, no PC manufacturer treats their products with the same standard they would for any old consumer electronics product.

What gave you the impression I've never had a problem with a Mac? I've had plenty, but I haven't had problems getting them fixed. Maybe the AppleCare people just like me better for some reason, maybe it's because I don't act like they owe me something.

BTW, Dells also come with a 1 year limited warranty. And their customer service is downright awful nowadays, which is a shame because that used to be their strength.

[shatten22]

Originally posted by itai195:
Sorry, I don't agree. Computers don't always "just work."

So what should they do? We have a right to expect a certain amount of performance from the machine.

My relation to consumer electronics is perfectly relevant. People who expect computers to work as well as their TVs are being unrealistic. You can't apply the same standard to computers, just as you can't apply it to automobiles, homes, appliances, etc.

Never said it was irrelevant. The standard I am talking about is a universal one. It is simply owning a product that is relatively fault-free. You purchase something to do a certain job and if it malfunctions because of the manufacturer's choices in build quality (or intent) than actions should be taken by the manufacturer to fix the problem with no charge to the consumer.

Apple is not the only company with this kind of policy, no PC manufacturer treats their products with the same standard they would for any old consumer electronics product.

Just because it has become standard business practice, doesn't mean it is a good or right one. Most "any old consumer electronics" have crappy warranties too.

What gave you the impression I've never had a problem with a Mac? I've had plenty, but I haven't had problems getting them fixed. Maybe the AppleCare people just like me better for some reason, maybe it's because I don't act like they owe me something.

Obviously this is in reponse to someone else, because I never said anything of the sort. I have had plenty of good dealings with the Applecare people. But it only takes one or two times for them to deny you service (or try to charge you twice what your whole unit costs) that'll make you hate their guts.

And there is nothing wrong with feeling entitled to service you were promised.

g

[Raidiant]

This is becoming a flame war, its true computers break down often, especially laptops as they get tossed and moved around often.

I have owned many computers (all pcs), and most never break down just call me lucky. There may be software faults but rarely hardware, and I hope the same will go for my ibook which is my first mac.

When I bought it I had a screwed up screen with a few dead pixels, and the applecare exchanged my unit immedietly, which more RAM in apology. Apple Centers here are really nice, all the employees are like desperate to sell stuff or something.

i envy youguys I wish I had a powerbook.

[JayTi]

I didn't read this entire thread, but I'll see if I contribute something, no "flaming" intended.

if you mailed [email protected] or [email protected] , that doesn't mean it is Steve that is reading them, he does have secretaries and the such. Yes, if something is important enough steve will read it, but be assured, he has several "rules" set up for mail, if your not on his list, it goes in this box, if you are on his list, it goes to his inbox.

Second Part

ALL computer companies are not 100% perfect. Ever been inside a CompUSA repair depot? Ever looked inside the laptop cabinet? I have, At any time, there was never more than 1 Apple notebook. The rest were all Sonys, HPs, Compaqs, gateways and the like. Yes, most will say thats because of Apple's marketshare, but look a little deeper.

Nobody can guarantee a 100% perfect computer. Apple does its best for what it is, I've owned hundreds (literally, hundreds) of machines from Apple, and the largest problem I have had was a powerbook with 1 dead pixel in the leftmost corner, no biggie.

If you want a Sony, thats fine, but don't be buying a Sony because of customer support. If I have a problem with an Apple product, they will ship me a box, overnight, free of charge and I can arrange a time for an Airborne express man to pick it up. Will Sony do this? Absolutely not! If somebody brings a laptop in to CompUSA for repair, we send them back to the manufactuerer (if its under warranty) and they would be told minimum of 5-7 weeks.

Okay, so your friend for an iMac 800 lemon, call 1-800-SOS-APPL, give them the service orders, if it is in for the shop for the third time the machine gets replaced.

You cancelled your order, thats fine but why didn't you think about it before you even placed it? You are a rare customer that Apple has, I don't know too many people that get lemons, but it happens far more on the PC side, and I would bet some serious money on that.

Apple has been getting better, and they'll get better hut have you seen the economy lately? Its horrid. OS X is the most beautiful OS I've used, it works, rarely crashes, and it will only be getting better. Windows isn't getting much better, the new OS as a few bits and pieces updated (remember Windows ME?) but it has reached the point where nothing much can change as far as interface and usability.

I have a PC desktop at home, and Mac laptops all around, I would never exchange any of my notebooks for a PC one, it just doesn't make sense. The first time you have a problem with your laptop, let us know, and then re-read this thread.

I hope I got my point across without any flames...but the post itself was kind of asking to be refuted.

[goMac]

Originally posted by JasonPro:
I'm a "switcher" that has owned and built many pc's. I bought my first Mac PowerBook G4 w/ superdrive less than a month ago. Already I've discovered that for some reason when pressure is applied to the bottom of the computer the lcd panel freaks out (strange lines scroll across it) and the computer locks up. I discovered this when I bought a stand for it that just happend to have a foam pad right on one of these "pressure points" on the bottom of the case. When I brought it in to the apple store where I purchased that laptop the guy who assisted me was able to easily reproduce the problem and we couldn't reproduce the problem on other working models in the store. He tried to open the back and take a look for loose cables and such but since he didn't see anything obvious it had to be sent to apple service. When he's checking it over he finds this dent along the back of the laptop (along the cylindrical bar at the bottom of the lcd display). First of all, I had noticed the dent weeks before and it was so small that I didn't even know if it had come that way or not. Since it was something I wasn't worried about I just blew it off. I figured that if I had caused it, it probably happend by taking the laptop out and bumping the back edge up against my desk accidentally while placing it on my desk. This service guy in the store goes nuts on me telling me that well if this is the cause of the problem then it's not covered and you'll have to pay about $1000 to have the whole screen replaced. This doesn't make any sense to me since the problem is on the bottom of the laptop ON THE OTHER END from this dent which I'm positive has absolutely nothing to do with the problem. Basically I think this service guy was acusing me of dropping the thing or something which in that case wouldn't the dent be on a corner of the laptop but anyway... Then the guy was like "well, do you still want to send it in" basically implying that apple was going to charge me no matter what. I couldn't believe it. I had it sent in and if apple does charge me I will definetely be demanding a refund on the applecare plan I purchased and I will never buy another apple product again. I have a 5 year old sony 505 superslim laptop that has never died on me. I am a university student that walks everywhere and keeps my laptop in my backpack all the time. I've even slipped on ice and fallen on my backpack once and the sony was completely fine. I have the unsettling feeling that if anything like that happens with my new Ti that it would be completely destroyed. I'm a very confused switcher at this point. I don't know whether the guy that I talked to was just an idiot or whether all of apple is like that. I beginning the think that I shouldn't have been sucked in to unix on cool laptop with a great gui with no extra configuration so easily and just bought a nice pc laptop and spent two weeks configuring linux instead.

--
Jason Protheroe

Go see my thread. I am having the exact same problem.

[Parky]

You sad people who can only post negative comments here about me really need to get a life, and more importantly - READ WHAT IS SAID.

I am not going to buy a Sony laptop, and I have no intention of moving to Windows. I have simply said that I will think a little harder about my APPLE hardware purchases in the future. It really does not do the Mac community any favors when ignorant zelots like some of so called 'Mac users', can do nothing but wish normal people would move back to Windows. You should be doing all you can to try to keep these people, as I have tried to do many times. But instead all you can do is adopt a holier than you attitude and be aggressive to them.

For all those people who seem to think I live in the US, well I actually live in the UK, and Apple has screwed non US customers for years. Apple do not replace machines here after 3 repairs, we have a very different set of customer laws, the shop is liable in the first year for example.

AppleCare is a long distance number in the UK, not a free call, and often has a 30 minute wait time to get through.

I am not a hardware expert and don't think it would have been in my best interests to try to fix my own ibook.

I have mailed Steve in the past, and yes I have has a reply. It was concerning .Mac, he asked Steve Wright to get in touch with me, who gave me a free years membership to .Mac

Before any of you so called 'Apple supporters', get on your high horse and start to flame me again, I suggest you either READ more carefully, or mind your own business.

I am still supporting Apple, but I'm not as blind as many of you appear to be.

Grow up for gods sake and learn to read properly.

[tgrundke]

Join the club - my Pismo 400 video fried on me in August, 2001 (three mos. out of warranty!!) and the only recourse was shelling out the money to get it fixed.

After talking with a very helpful AppleCare technician about the issue, we "agreed" to a fee of $349 for the repair, which is the equivalent (methinks) of a new AppleCare warranty.

Irritating as all hell....

Originally posted by Gito:
Parky: I have a similar problem too. My Tibook which is almost 2 years old, has some seriuos problems with the graphic card. I had talked to apple care, people around here, I took it to the apple store and seems like the only solution is to send it to TX, which I hate to do it, because I am afraid that the problem it won't be fix or it will come back even worse My Rmate just got a Tibook probably 5 weeks ago and his got a huge problem too with the mother board, he sent it in and they said " we'll see what we can do" .... My Rmates tibook has some kind of odd effect in the screen, like it gets frozen with lines, etc. and this doesn't happend every time but probably 3 o 4 times a day!!! Oh well I was a windows user and I really don't want to go back, but you right Apples computers are just coming with out being checked
bye

[Parky]

An update for anyone interested :-

My iBook has been returned, it has been repaired faine, no problems, no damage. Total cost was �298, which is a little less than estimated.

My freinds retuned their iMac and got a full refund. They then went to look for a new machine, and in the end they decided to give Apple another chance. The bought a new 17 inch iMac, 20GB iPod, plus other bits and pieces. They seem happy now, let's hope it stays that way.

Steve Jobs passed my email on as expected, and today I receved a call from Apple Customer Services in the UK. They appologised for all the problems and thanked me for supporting Apple. They were very nice and have given me a better feeling abotu the company. They have made contact and appologised which is all that it takes sometimes.

I am still not buying a PowerBook yet, I will wait and see how they perform in the coming months.

[schalliol]

What email address did you use? Was it the same as the one you got a response from before?

[Simon]

Originally posted by Parky:
An update for anyone interested...

Congratulations. It seems all went well for you, your friends and Apple. That's great. I hope you will regain trust in our favorite fruit company. And I'm really glad Apple didn't loose these switchers.

Good luck to ya all.

[Parky]

I wrote to [email protected]

[Raidiant]

congratulations, personally I have to courage to email steve jobs like this.

you should feel lucky that you can afford a power book, however you should wait for some to ship and evaluate as I heard there might be heat/fan issues.

[Agent69]

Originally posted by FlashGordon:
You should have gotten AppleCare.

Don't be an *******. Some people can't get Applecare.

[Kenneth]

I would like to say something as well.
I first bought a Mac in 1996, a Performa 6116CD with Apple Multi-Scan 14" monitor and StyleWriter 1200. It is still running now on 9.1. All these years there is only one problem which is the external 14.4 Geo-port modem got mal-functioning, I went out any bought the 3Com/USR 56k X2 modem ( it was new that time and cost $250). Meanwhile, the modem is still working now. Very happy with the system.
In Sept/1998, bought the iMac Rev.A, no problem as well..besides that silly 8GB partition rule drove me nutz. Just sold this baby a month ago.
In Nov/1999, my sister bought an iBook 300, all went fine, but the display is now in pink since she didn't buy AppleCare, replacing the screen won't be cheap.. so she just bought the 12.1" iBook 800 two months ago, no problem so far.
Now, that's the story.
Feb/2001, ordered the TiBook/400 via their ADC channel. got the machine in the end of March. The machine is some sort of DOA since it won't turn on out of the box...I somehow get it to start by holding the power-key few seconds and then press it again. Meanwhile, the machine will not wake after put it to sleep mode. I called Apple and they told me to format the HD and re-install 9.1, even reset the NVRAM. Since I need a portable to work on, so I didn't have the time to send it back to Apple to repair. Near the 1-yr warranty mark, I had a trip to Seattle and brought the machine to TheComputerStore and see what they said about it. They sent it back to Apple. I went online and check the repair status and they were waiting for the parts (top case, logic board). It took a month for the whole repair process, I called them every weeks. Just last Summer, i sold that TiBook w/AppleCare.

In Aug/2002, I bought the 10Gb iPod..so far no major problem.. but last time the iPod froze up (may be due to cold weather) and the earbud seens broken now too..

So... looks like Steve Jobs-era products are not as good as pre-1997 Apple products. eg. eMac video, iMac analog-board, noisy PowerMac... may be the $6,500 PowerBook 3400/240 is trouble-free.

BTW, it's good to hear that Apple got some good news for you. About the 1st gen. 12" PowerBook..there may be some glitches...u never know.

[skyman]

Originally posted by Parky:
You sad people who can only post negative comments here about me really need to get a life, and more importantly - READ WHAT IS SAID.

I am not going to buy a Sony laptop, and I have no intention of moving to Windows. I have simply said that I will think a little harder about my APPLE hardware purchases in the future. It really does not do the Mac community any favors when ignorant zelots like some of so called 'Mac users', can do nothing but wish normal people would move back to Windows. You should be doing all you can to try to keep these people, as I have tried to do many times. But instead all you can do is adopt a holier than you attitude and be aggressive to them.

For all those people who seem to think I live in the US, well I actually live in the UK, and Apple has screwed non US customers for years. Apple do not replace machines here after 3 repairs, we have a very different set of customer laws, the shop is liable in the first year for example.

AppleCare is a long distance number in the UK, not a free call, and often has a 30 minute wait time to get through.

I am not a hardware expert and don't think it would have been in my best interests to try to fix my own ibook.

I have mailed Steve in the past, and yes I have has a reply. It was concerning .Mac, he asked Steve Wright to get in touch with me, who gave me a free years membership to .Mac

Before any of you so called 'Apple supporters', get on your high horse and start to flame me again, I suggest you either READ more carefully, or mind your own business.

I am still supporting Apple, but I'm not as blind as many of you appear to be.

Grow up for gods sake and learn to read properly.

BRAVO!

[skyman]

Originally posted by Parky:
I wrote to [email protected]

A word of advice. If you are going to email Steve it better be a constructive email and not a flame. Only constructive well thought out "intelligent" letters make it to his desk.

[Parky]

Steve has taken notice of two of my letters now, and I have had a result from both of them. They must have been good enough for him to take action.

It just shows that some effort in writing a nice letter has some effect.

Ian

[CyberPet]

I've just written an email, being very polite and constructive, no flames at all but making my dissappointment clear. However I doubt it'll get to Steve Jobs' desk.

But it does feel good to at least have some hope that it *might* reach him and that he might react to it.

[skyman]

Originally posted by CyberPet:
I've just written an email, being very polite and constructive, no flames at all but making my dissappointment clear. However I doubt it'll get to Steve Jobs' desk.

But it does feel good to at least have some hope that it *might* reach him and that he might react to it.

You must have a positive attitude grasshopper.

[skyman]

Originally posted by Parky:
Steve has taken notice of two of my letters now, and I have had a result from both of them. They must have been good enough for him to take action.

It just shows that some effort in writing a nice letter has some effect.

Ian

Good job Parky. It is people (customers) like you who Apple depends on for constructive advice and criticism.

The complainers and whiners will never be heard.

[jade408]

One thing to note. Even if a problem is experienced many times, only a very small portion of people ever comment on their experience, those who are really mad or had an awesome experience. The vast majority of people are satisfied but inactive.

[John123]

Guys, some of you who report having received "responses from Steve" are cracking me up.

Just because you receive a letter back signed with "Steve" at the bottom does not mean Steve Jobs took the time to write you a personal response. MUCH MUCH more likely is that some low-level customer service rep replied to your complaint and wrote Jobs's name at the bottom.

It happens **all** the time, so unless you received a phone call and recognized his voice from MW Expos, you got a token customer service response.

[schalliol]

Likely the case, but I do know that there's another email address not listed here that Steve probably personally uses, judging from the unusualness of the account name and the response. The response given was as follows for a complimentary email. You see how brief it is. I don't think that a response that was supposed to look like a CEO would look like that:

Thanks [name]

Steve

Also, though this was in early '98 the X-mailer was the built-in mail progam from OpenStep. I assume he uses OS X now, but it was neat to see that he still loved his OS and wasn't going to 9 even though he ran Apple at the time.

[Parky]

I don't care if it was Steve personally or not, a least they replied. In the call I got from Steve Wright (Internet Services Support and QA Manager, Apple USA), he specifically said that Steve jobs had asked him to call me.

Now it might not have been Steve Jobs, but why lie ? Maybe it got through his email filtering people and he did read it and respond via another person.

All I was interested in was getting a response I was happy with, both times I did. Therefore I'm a happy customer.

Ian

[TheIceMan]

Parky
I'm glad things finally were resolved. You displayed professionalism eventhough you were quite upset. I think it shows that when we conduct ourselves in an adult and professional manner, we will oftentimes receive due respect. Apple needs more customers like you. Because the truth is they aren't perfect and sometimes that needs to be pointed out to the CEO to get his attention.

[mikerally]

I don't care if it was Steve personally or not, a least they replied. In the call I got from Steve Wright (Internet Services Support and QA Manager, Apple USA), he specifically said that Steve jobs had asked him to call me.

Now it might not have been Steve Jobs, but why lie ? Maybe it got through his email filtering people and he did read it and respond via another person.

It depends on how you perceive the truth, Steve Jobs may have hired a response team for those who send e-mails like this to his address, in which case the guy is telling the truth.

BTW, you wouldn't mind posting the response (or a transcript) would you? I'm quite curious to see how Apple have responded.

[CyberPet]

I guess it doesn't matter if it's Steve Personally or not that replies, the main thing -- which Parky has proof of -- is that someone, somewhere got the email and wanted to make sure Parky will keep buying Macintoshes in the future.

I doubt Steve Jobs will read MY email I sent yesterday, but I DO hope that someone will and that someone will take SOME actions and answer my questions and reply to my complaints.

You go Parky!

PS, someone mentioned me being, maybe overly, optimistic. Well that's my way of living. If I weren't positive, I'd be dead by now. So why change?

[shatten22]

Nice job Parky. I believe that in the end, it doesn't really matter if Jobs himself did anything. One of the higher ups in Apple took notice and went out of his(or her) way to make sure they would keep you as a customer. That's admirable.

g

[olli2]

After 6-7 years of computer usage, I took the experience, that after 2-3 years of daily usage, every day should be considered as a present from your hardware. After 3 years, I don't surprise if something stops working.

[msykes]

Okay, admittedly I didn't read every single post in this thread, so I hope this hasn't been covered before.

First of all Parky, glad that you got the iBook fixed, and that your friends are happy for the moment. I'm one of the lucky ones that happens to have had very good luck with Apple products, including my latest TiBook 800 with no problems, no peeling paint and no dead pixels. Yes!

On the whole subject of quality control, and failing parts though, I wonder how much of the blame is really Apple's. CD Drives, hard drives, these are not things that Apple makes! All Apple does is buy the components from a manufacturer, and put them in their machines. So if your CD Drive breaks, it's not really clear to me how much of this is the fault of Apple's quality care. Now certainly if there were a rash of problems with a particular unit they buy, it's behooves Apple to respond to the problems, but in many ways I think Apple (and other manufacturers) is at the mercy of many other technology companies for how reliable their products are.

On the other hand things like mother boards are genuine Apple products, and they have more control over them (at least that's the impression I'm under). Also in my rather large experience Apple's have much fewer problems with mother boards than things like optical drives (the drives seem to be the weakest part of recent portables outside of the case itself).

Finally, not using a CD drive is probably not a good thing. It's like trying to start a car after not driving it for 5 years, you'd be better off taking it for a spin around the block every month of two just to keep things ship shape.

Good luck with any future Apple purchases!