[red rocket]

There seem to be several plausible explanations why jumping the barrier despite having a ticket may seem like a cool idea.

1. Fun.
2. Speed.
3. Exercise.
4. Variety.
5. Madness.

I've done it.

[Y3a]

<< How do you know that he a) had heard the police? and b) that he knew it was the police that were after him?

The story goes that he ran down a set of escalators and into the train. Maybe he had his walkman on and didn't hear them? Maybe he was running because he didn't want to be late. Maybe he thought they weren't policemen? Maybe they never said anything to him. Maybe they didn't say it loudly enough to drown out Metallica on his iPod. There are any number of reasons why he may have run. Which is precisely why the cops aren't allowed to assassinate people like this in the ordinary course. >>

MAybe he didn't KNOW about the bombings? maybe he didn't understand the heightened security and lookouts? maybe he was too wasted on pot and KNEW he was in the UK illegally so he was extra paranoid? Maybe he couldn't put two and two together?

[moodymonster]

obviously we now know he was listening to loud music and jumps ticket barriers chased by armed men on a regular basis - completely normal set of events.

Where did the music bit come from? fact? relevance? it seems obvious he was aware of the police, iPod or not.

[red rocket]

Originally Posted by moodymonster

obviously we now know he was listening to loud music and jumps ticket barriers chased by armed men on a regular basis - completely normal set of events.

Where did the music bit come from? fact? relevance? it seems obvious he was aware of the police, iPod or not.

The relevance would appear to be that wearing an iPod (or similar) in public prevents you from hearing "Stop! Police!" when they shout it at you.

[red rocket]

Maybe I should get a T-shirt that says "Don't shoot. I'm shuffling."

[moodymonster]

Originally Posted by red rocket

There seem to be several plausible explanations why jumping the barrier despite having a ticket may seem like a cool idea.

1. Fun.
2. Speed.
3. Exercise.
4. Variety.
5. Madness.

I've done it.

That's it - he was doing it all to get a buzz out the experience. The men chasing him just added to that. That's why he looked so scared.

Come on, police everywhere, uniformed, undercover etc, great day to jump a barrier, even if you're not being chased by police - do that in Stockwell on that day and you're gonna get chased by police.

You're telling me given the police presence and the recent events, you'd jump over the barrier for a laugh? do it, go down to central London right now - pick a station, run in and vault the ticket barriers, you know you want to.

You wouldn't?

That would be a stupid thing to do? yes it would.

[moodymonster]

they aren't using these tactics at random:

For operational reasons we are not prepared to disclose or confirm information about our detailed tactics and developing technologies.

However, we can say that the tactics are designed to be used on an intelligence-led basis. They are not implemented at random, but as a result of intelligence and backed up by senior decision making ...

The tactics cannot be described as 'shoot to kill' as the police must still apply the principle of using reasonable force, and they will be held accountable for their decision making

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlo...536008,00.html

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by moodymonster

it seems obvious he was aware of the police, iPod or not.

The question is when did he become aware of the group of men chasing him(we don't know if he knew if they were cops or not)?

[moodymonster]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

The question is when did he become aware of the group of men chasing him(we don't know if he knew if they were cops or not)?

before they started chasing him, when they challenged him.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by moodymonster

before they started chasing him, when they challenged him.

Fron where do you have this? And how did they "challenge" him?

[moodymonster]

Quote:
When he was challenged by police in the Tube station, he fled, reportedly leaping the ticket barrier.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4713753.stm

Quote:
Witnesses reported that when challenged he jumped over the ticket barriers and bolted down an escalator, looking like a "petrified rabbit".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlo...536022,00.html

I would imagine "armed police, stand still or we will open fire"

[TETENAL]

You imagine that.

Could also have been that undercover police in civil clothes just pulled their guns and that was their "challenging". I would run as well if someone in a metro station would pull a gun. He might not have been the only one running away and he could not have known that he was the "suspect".

Doesn't this metro station have surveillance cameras? I'd like to see how he was confronted with the police.

[moodymonster]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

You imagine that.

Could also have been that undercover police in civil clothes just pulled their guns and that was their "challenging". I would run as well if someone in a metro station would pull a gun. He might not have been the only one running away and he could not have known that he was the "suspect".

Doesn't this metro station have surveillance cameras? I'd like to see how he was confronted with the police.

other people there interpreted the police action as a challenge. The underground has cameras all over - largest monitored area in Europe. One day we will see how he was "challenged", if he was challenged. Unless the cameras suddenly all become faulty.

[red rocket]

Originally Posted by moodymonster

That's it - he was doing it all to get a buzz out the experience. The men chasing him just added to that. That's why he looked so scared.

Come on, police everywhere, uniformed, undercover etc, great day to jump a barrier, even if you're not being chased by police - do that in Stockwell on that day and you're gonna get chased by police.

You're telling me given the police presence and the recent events, you'd jump over the barrier for a laugh? do it, go down to central London right now - pick a station, run in and vault the ticket barriers, you know you want to.

You wouldn't?

That would be a stupid thing to do? yes it would.

Of course it's a stupid move under present conditions. I just offered a number of plausibilities. Plausible does not equal probable, last time I checked.

Originally Posted by TETENAL

He might not have been the only one running away and he could not have known that he was the "suspect".

^^^^^^^^^
Good point.

6. Stolen iPod recovery.
(Somebody tries to steal my stuff, odds are I'll chase after them. I know not everybody behaves like that, but given how crappy the odds are on the police recovering your property, it's justifiable.)

[Troll]

Originally Posted by moodymonster

other people there interpreted the police action as a challenge. The underground has cameras all over - largest monitored area in Europe. One day we will see how he was "challenged", if he was challenged. Unless the cameras suddenly all become faulty.

I've dealt with the Police in cases very similar to this one before. Let's just say they have a habit of being creative with the truth in these circumstances. Normally they hope that a series of bald denials will make the story go away completely. It will take some time before the full story is out in the open.

What really worries me is the way the government is getting the information so wrong on these bombing. First 7 July was 7 attacks spread out over an hour. Then it became 4 attacks spread out over an hour, then 3 simultaneous attacks and one later attack. First Menezes was "directly related" to the 7 July attacks, then not all. Then he was in the UK legally, then illegally. First he ran down a set of escalators, then he jumped a barrier as well. First he was shot 4 times, then 5 now 7. You'd think they could be a little more accurate with the information they give out.

And as for the "This has nothing to do with Iraq," how the hell do they know that?

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Troll

And as for the "This has nothing to do with Iraq," how the hell do they know that?

The same way Aznar "knew" the Madrid bombings were done by ETA.

[christ]

Originally Posted by moodymonster

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4713753.stm



http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlo...536022,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlo...536008,00.html

If you're going to say he was running to catch a train, explain the jumping barriers bit - taking into account that he had a ticket. Also the BBC seem to disagree with your version of their version of events.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4714557.stm

"Scotland Yard ... said they pursued him into the station after he began running, and shot him after he failed to obey their orders to stop and tried to board a Tube train."

Note the "after he began running" bit.

[red rocket]

"Scotland Yard are not commenting on details of the shooting because it is being investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission. But earlier they said Mr Menezes was wearing a padded jacket which heightened their suspicions."



?

[Wiskedjak]

In any case, is running from the police reason to be shot 5 times in the head?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

In any case, is running from the police reason to be shot 5 times in the head?

In the current climate, yes.

And do keep up. It was 7 times in the head, once in the shoulder.

[Y3a]

Better make sure ONE bomber is dead so many won't be killed. DUH!

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Y3a

Better make sure ONE bomber is dead so many won't be killed. DUH!

Better make sure that "bomber" is actually a bomber

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Better make sure that "bomber" is actually a bomber

Can you honestly tell me that if you were one of those cops, given the circumstances and the guys behavior, that you wouldn't have come to the same conclusion they did? And I stand my my earlier statement; If this guy had been a bomber, and the cops didn't stop him, and he had blown off a bomb in the tube, we'd have a thread full of the same people bitching "They were following him, they knew what he was doing, why didn't the stop him?" Again, you can't have it both ways.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane

Can you honestly tell me that if you were one of those cops, given the circumstances and the guys behavior, that you wouldn't have come to the same conclusion they did? And I stand my my earlier statement; If this guy had been a bomber, and the cops didn't stop him, and he had blown off a bomb in the tube, we'd have a thread full of the same people bitching "They were following him, they knew what he was doing, why didn't the stop him?" Again, you can't have it both ways.

Without question cops in western nations are placed in a horrible, damned if they do, damned if they don't, situation by terrorism.

[Thorin]

For the people who support the policy that lead to this shooting, what do you consider an acceptable ratio of innocent people killed by the police to actual suicide bombers stopped? If they shoot 5 innocent people for every 1 suicide bomber would that be acceptable? What about 10? If incidents like this recur over the next few months, and they never actually get a suicide bomber, would you still support this tactic?

[iLikebeer]

When are those Total Recall style security systems going to start getting installed? It's been a few years since they came out. I would think a few hundred million $$$ security investment would be cheaper than the economic effects of terrorism.


http://www.limbicnutrition.com/blog/...es/026344.html

Have one of those cool new ray gun things we're testing in Iraq next to the security checkpoint and we're good to go.

[moodymonster]

already in use at some UK airports, plus

http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/...686151,00.html

[moodymonster]

Originally Posted by Thorin

For the people who support the policy that lead to this shooting, what do you consider an acceptable ratio of innocent people killed by the police to actual suicide bombers stopped? If they shoot 5 innocent people for every 1 suicide bomber would that be acceptable? What about 10? If incidents like this recur over the next few months, and they never actually get a suicide bomber, would you still support this tactic?

0 innocents

if a suicide bomber can be got to surrender, then that should be done. If not, or there is not the opportunity to do that, then unfortunately they have to die.

In this instance the guy seems to have done everything wrong. Before 7/7 if he ran from police he'd still be alive. In other countries if you ran from the police in a matter of this sort what would happen?

The guy the day before didn't run and followed police instructions - he is alive. Do you think he'd be alive if, when told to stop, he ran at downing street?

I think the issues are,

How did the police approach him initially?

What prompted him to run when he wasn't involved?

Why was he let on the bus?

Did the police keep shouting at him to stop as they were chasing him?

I don't think it is a case of the police just chosing someone and blowing their head off.

[badidea]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Then why are you here? Don't you think it's a bit crazy to do things you don't like?

Maybe because of the same reasons you wanted to join the lifeboat??

[analogika]

Originally Posted by badidea

Maybe because of the same reasons you wanted to join the lifeboat??

Don't go there - bad idea.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Better make sure that "bomber" is actually a bomber

The police had evidence that the suspect was carrying weapons of mass destruction. Oh, and a mobile bioweapons lab.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane

Can you honestly tell me that if you were one of those cops, given the circumstances and the guys behavior, that you wouldn't have come to the same conclusion they did? And I stand my my earlier statement; If this guy had been a bomber, and the cops didn't stop him, and he had blown off a bomb in the tube, we'd have a thread full of the same people bitching "They were following him, they knew what he was doing, why didn't the stop him?" Again, you can't have it both ways.

If they'd dived on him and he'd blown himself up, they would have been heroes; no two ways about it. No one would have blamed them for anything except perhaps not stopping him far earlier when he was riding a public bus? But that would have been overshadowed by the sacrifice they made. As it stands, the fear of being executed on the tube adds to the terror felt by Londoners.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane

Can you honestly tell me that if you were one of those cops, given the circumstances and the guys behavior, that you wouldn't have come to the same conclusion they did? And I stand my my earlier statement; If this guy had been a bomber, and the cops didn't stop him, and he had blown off a bomb in the tube, we'd have a thread full of the same people bitching "They were following him, they knew what he was doing, why didn't the stop him?" Again, you can't have it both ways.

T.I. I agree with you 100% here. I'm quite satisfied that this was simply an unfortunate misunderstanding. One where only the Brazilian is at fault.

The Brazilian electrician was wearing gear and clothing appropriate for his job and thought he was being pursued due to his immigration status and that the police could be eluded as they don't carry guns and his offense was not that serious. If he ran quickly enough he'd be free as a bird.

The police thought he was at least connected to the previous explosions and despite their identifying themselves as police, because he failed to stop they HAD to assume he was a dangerous terrorist wearing a bomb belt or vest beneath his heavy overcoat and he was trying to reach the best possible target (i.e. a train full of innocent passengers) before detonating the device.

To keep him from triggering an explosion they had to act quickly and decisively. Even a man shot once or even twice in the head may still have the cognitive and physical ability to push a button on a bomb. The only hope for the police to save the passengers as well as themselves was to STOP all mental functioning in the Brazilian's brain as quickly as possible.

He knew about the bomb attacks but he failed to put the pieces together and understand how his appearance and actions might have been misunderstood. So, rather than using the brains God gave him and stopping and raising his hands in the air and surrendering to possible deportation, he gambled and lost his life. Darwin's theory, indeed. As Aberdeen used to say, he was fuzzy brained.

As for the police, they must also be aware of the danger they have submitted to as part of their job. And in that moment when they can not turn back and the course of events has been all but decided, the thought must go through their minds, not of their own safety but of others..."So this is how I will die, but dear God, what will become of my family?"

The actions of these brave men deserves a medal. They acted as they did because he led them to believe he was a threat.

JUST LIKE SADDAM when he led the world to believe he might still have had a WMD capability. President Bush and these British policemen faced the same kind of scenario.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

In both examples they chose to err on the side of protecting those they swore to defend.

That, ladies and gents, means you and I. (If you are Brit or Yank.)

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Troll

I've dealt with the Police in cases very similar to this one before. Let's just say they have a habit of being creative with the truth in these circumstances. Normally they hope that a series of bald denials will make the story go away completely. It will take some time before the full story is out in the open.

What really worries me is the way the government is getting the information so wrong on these bombing. First 7 July was 7 attacks spread out over an hour. Then it became 4 attacks spread out over an hour, then 3 simultaneous attacks and one later attack. First Menezes was "directly related" to the 7 July attacks, then not all. Then he was in the UK legally, then illegally. First he ran down a set of escalators, then he jumped a barrier as well. First he was shot 4 times, then 5 now 7. You'd think they could be a little more accurate with the information they give out.

And as for the "This has nothing to do with Iraq," how the hell do they know that?

If you and I (i.e. the PRESS) weren't so insistent upon getting every shred of info INSTANTLY, the information we'd get might be slow but it would be more consistent and accurate.

Every event produces information that is inaccurate and clouded by emotion and dispensed at the wrong time and in the wrong way due to wanting to get information out to the press.

It has even happened on these boards, where a poster was given certain information about an event and he/she posted the information given by a trusted source. Well, the information never proved out. And, OH the griping and flaming that went on.

So, when you talk about the inaccurate info that comes from a new investigation of an event such as this you should EXPECT that it isn't going to be spot on right away.

Take it all with a grain of salt, counselor.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Thorin

For the people who support the policy that lead to this shooting, what do you consider an acceptable ratio of innocent people killed by the police to actual suicide bombers stopped? If they shoot 5 innocent people for every 1 suicide bomber would that be acceptable? What about 10? If incidents like this recur over the next few months, and they never actually get a suicide bomber, would you still support this tactic?

I'd pose the question to a different crowd...those who feel running from the police is a smart thing to do these days.

"Of you who think running from the police is a smart option, how many people out of every ten, do you suppose will survive? 1 out of 10? If every single person who is innocent of terrorism runs and is shot by the police, would you still plan on out-running the authorities?"

[von Wrangell]

Mojo. We don't know if he knew he was running from the police. Unfortunately due to the policy of the UK government we will never know.

But continue blaming the innocent who got executed for no other reason than living in the wrong house at the wrong time and looked like he could possibly be an Arab. It'll probably help you sleep at nights.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

We don't know if he knew he was running from the police.

Yes. We. Do.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Mojo. We don't know if he knew he was running from the police. Unfortunately due to the policy of the UK government we will never know.

But continue blaming the innocent who got executed for no other reason than living in the wrong house at the wrong time and looked like he could possibly be an Arab. It'll probably help you sleep at nights.

I put myself in his frame of mind, what I can figure it might have been and then I try putting myself in the police' mindset and the verdict is that he must have contributed GREATLY to the misunderstanding which led to his death.

1. Not taking current events into account.
2. (In deference to YOUR assertion that his coloring had something to do with it) Not taking into account that he could be mistaken for an Arab.
3. Assuming at SOME point in the chase and challenge he took off his mp3 player and gained no life saving insights. Who is this chasing me? What do they want me to do? What are they threatening to do if I continue running? What will I gain/risk if I stop and surrender? What will I gain/risk if I continue running?

Unfortunately he was young and dumb and paid for it.

The fact is, this is EXACTLY how I want my police to perform. They behaved splendidly (assuming they adequately identified themselves) and with the thought they were acting on behalf of the public they knowingly and willingly put themselves at great risk to protect the life and limb of others.

Yes, the Brazilian died so that other young Fuzzies might live.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by mojo2

I put myself in his frame of mind, what I can figure it might have been and then I try putting myself in the police' mindset and the verdict is that he must have contributed GREATLY to the misunderstanding which led to his death.

Please don't put yourself into the frame of mind of others. People are already confused enough.

1. Not taking current events into account.
2. (In deference to YOUR assertion that his coloring had something to do with it) Not taking into account that he could be mistaken for an Arab.
3. Assuming at SOME point in the chase and challenge he took off his mp3 player and gained no life saving insights. Who is this chasing me? What do they want me to do? What are they threatening to do if I continue running? What will I gain/risk if I stop and surrender? What will I gain/risk if I continue running?

1. He shouldn't have to.
2. So now you are saying all Arab looking people should be more careful when it comes to the police!? Unbelievable!
3. Because when you see people pointing guns in your direction you do not stop to think. You act. Heck, your own government imagined that Iraq had "guns" aimed at it and panicked. How do you think an individual would react to a real threat to his life? Again, if chased by people with guns you don't stop to think what might happen. you simply run for your life.

Unfortunately he was young and dumb and paid for it.

And for the love of God stop blaming the only innocent person in this whole mess!! He was not responsible in anyway for his death! Sickening....

The fact is, this is EXACTLY how I want my police to perform. They behaved splendidly (assuming they adequately identified themselves) and with the thought they were acting on behalf of the public they knowingly and willingly put themselves at great risk to protect the life and limb of others.

Yes, the Brazilian died so that other young Fuzzies might live.

So you want your police to execute innocent people because they looked like Arabs. I wonder how you want them to treat real Arabs.......

And no, he didn't die so others could live. He was executed for nothing more than living in the wrong house at the wrong time, for looking like he could possibly be an Arab and because the UK government has a policy that gives the benefit of the doubt to the police instead of the innocent when it comes to life and death situations.

Perhaps it's time for you to move to a real pol.........wait. Nevermind.

[Ice33]

The idiocy you people are trying to pass off to support your anti racial profiling theories. The most likely scenario is that he did become aware they were police at some point because all officers you will ever meet are trained to announce it. Even if one may have forgotten to state that fact it is unlikely two or three or four did as well.
If a language barrier did exist the Portuguese speaking person would not really be at a disadvantage understanding the phrase, "police stop!" Translation to polícia under the circumstances does not require a giant leap in thought. If he was there illegally and did not want to be deported he probably ran to evade capture. Under normal circumstances Immigration Agents will not shoot fleeing aliens. Since these were not immigration agents but undercover police doing a sweep for terrorist suspects his fleeing only added to their concern he was exactly that.
He was not shot because he was dark skinned. He was not chased because he was a foreigner. He was killed because he acted suspiciously and his behavior was construed as a signal of guilt. His running onto a crowded subway under those circumstances had to be treated as a threat to the safety of the public and that threat had to be stopped. He was innocent of terrorism but he was not innocent of provoking the actions of the officers.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Please don't put yourself into the frame of mind of others. People are already confused enough.

VW (hah!) there you go again trying to control others. You really should just assume you are speaking for yourself. No one else shares your POV.

So you want your police to execute innocent people because they looked like Arabs. I wonder how you want them to treat real Arabs.......

(Your post actually makes me smile. Because I know you do not believe everything you say nor do you feel such conviction as you would have us think. And no you needn't respond to this comment. )

You are a blue eyed blond nordic type? I know you say you do not look like a 'typical' Arab Muslim. And in the Autobiography of Malcolm X he spoke of an epiphany when he performed the Hajj realizing that Muslims came in every hue under the sun. For some reason you keep mentioning a supposed bias I or others might have toward any brown skinned peoples (even though that would cause me some degree of angst and ultimately prove ill-advised as I am also 'of color.').

I sometimes get the impression you are trying to convince someone who MAY BE a brown skinned Arab that you are sympathetic to his or her plight.

Which reminds me of the rich white girl who hung around with the Black Nationalists and called them "my soul brothers" and ran around wearing dashikis and black berets or black leather jackets and curly permed Afro styled hair and throwing her defiant little clenched white fist in the air and yelling, "Black Power" louder than ANYONE else in the group. And everyone in the group had a pass at her til the group leader claimed her as his private property.

Sorry, but there's no color bias here. But if you ARE trying to impress someone I'll put in a good word for you.

[von Wrangell]

Your point?

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Ice33

The idiocy you people are trying to pass off to support your anti racial profiling theories. The most likely scenario is that he did become aware they were police at some point because all officers you will ever meet are trained to announce it. Even if one may have forgotten to state that fact it is unlikely two or three or four did as well.
If a language barrier did exist the Portuguese speaking person would not really be at a disadvantage understanding the phrase, "police stop!" Translation to polícia under the circumstances does not require a giant leap in thought. If he was there illegally and did not want to be deported he probably ran to evade capture. Under normal circumstances Immigration Agents will not shoot fleeing aliens. Since these were not immigration agents but undercover police doing a sweep for terrorist suspects his fleeing only added to their concern he was exactly that.
He was not shot because he was dark skinned. He was not chased because he was a foreigner. He was killed because he acted suspiciously and his behavior was construed as a signal of guilt. His running onto a crowded subway under those circumstances had to be treated as a threat to the safety of the public and that threat had to be stopped. He was innocent of terrorism but he was not innocent of provoking the actions of the officers.

Of COURSE Ice33! But in as many ways as you and I and ALL the posters on this board try to explain the obvious to those who WOULD NOT see, they will intellectually resist all reason.

But that is fun too! Trying to convince the unconvinceable.

And it would be complete fun were the situation not involving the loss of so many innocent lives.

VW should well consider the Brazilian's death just one more casualty of the terrorist bombers.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Your point?

Believe me, it really helps to be black or brown skinned if you expect to successfully use, "THE RACE CARD."

And I know how to use the "race card."

White boys and girls can't really pull off that trick.

But the effort is noted!

A+ for effort.

[moodymonster]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4719551.stm

Police in 250 suicide bomb scares

Police have dealt with 250 suicide bomb scares since the 7 July London attacks, Metropolitan Police commissioner Sir Ian Blair has said.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Believe me, it really helps to be black or brown skinned if you expect to successfully use, "THE RACE CARD."

And I know how to use the "race card."

White boys and girls can't really pull off that trick.

But the effort is noted!

A+ for effort.

Do you think a white person walking out of that building would have been followed or eventually shot under the same circumstances?

[budster101]

Have they determined this person shot was innocent or not? I did a quick scan of the page... and nothing.

Sad if he was innocent.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Do you think a white person walking out of that building would have been followed or eventually shot under the same circumstances?

YES!!!!

Need I remind everyone of the poster who has REPEATEDLY told us that terrorists can look European or American or Asian is none other than von Wrangle???!!!???

And we all know that such types are actively being sought by the terrorists recruiting teams.

So why would you suddenly forget (or try to have US forget) that this was your argument of the moment/day not too long ago?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by budster101

Have they determined this person shot was innocent or not? I did a quick scan of the page... and nothing.

Sad if he was innocent.

Yup, he was innocent.

There was a "leak" from the police that he might have been an illegal immigrant(expired visa) but that was quickly quashed by Straw and the Home Office(IIRC)

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by mojo2

YES!!!!

What makes you think that?