[Hawkeye_a]

I just purchased a leather jacket recently, and had a question about leather jackets in general....

The jacket is made up on a bunch on panels of leather. I noticed that the two panels on the front, look pretty different in terms of texture. One looks kinda wrinkled with a lot of lines going over it, and so seems kinda bendable, while the other is very smooth with hardly any 'wrinkles'. Is this something to expect from a leather product?

Cheers

[Spheric Harlot]

Leather is skin, and animal skins can vary as much as human skins.

What you're seeing can be avoided by careful selection of material at the factory, but that takes experience and is significantly more expensive, obviously.

[P]

Roughly speaking, it depends on where on the cow or bull that piece of leather is from. On the center of the back - the center of the hide, as the hide is cut under the belly when skinning - is the best leather, and then it's a question of how far out from that you go. The neck area is very wrinkly, the area under the belly is looser and doesn't have any internal solidity. Without seeing pictures, it's hard to judge exactly what is going on with your jacket, but that's how it works.

[Hawkeye_a]

Thanks guys. I guess with leather being a natural product its impossible to get a 'perfectly' consistent piece. Apparently this jacket is made from a single hide, so is to be expected, i assume.

Cheers

[P]

"Made from a single hide" is, to my ears, code for "we're using the entire hide so we can get great yield and blame any defects on that". If you want high quality leather, you pick parts from the core area (back and top of the sides) and avoid any obvious defects, which may mean that you have use multiple hides - with associated defects.

On the other hand...We use leather BECAUSE it is a natural material, so to some extent, I expect to see variation. It's easy to make a synthetic leather that is always "perfect". Your description sounds a bit extreme, but in general, it's not supposed to be perfectly identical.

[Hawkeye_a]

I haven't signed up to an image sharing service, so i found an image online which shows a similar issue:



Compare the the panels on the front and ignore the arrows. The panel to the right looks kinda wrinkly and 'distressed' while the panel on the left looks smooth.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

I haven't signed up to an image sharing service

imgur: the simple image sharer. No sign up necessary.

[Shaddim]

Yeah, that's a by-product of the "single-hide" process, which is an environmental buzzword not a quality definition. On the one hand it makes a piece look unique, but on the other it's seldom uniform. Some of the best outer shells are made from 12-14 month male calves from countries that have outlawed barbed wire, all because those are the least likely to show any visible defects (it's the same with leather for high-end car interiors; Rolls, Bentley, Ferrari, etc.). IMO, however, that leather looks more like vinyl instead of a natural product, I like a little "character" in a jacket, and to me, a few scars and blemishes make it more interesting (I have a bomber jacket with a faded herd brand in the back, it's one of my favorites). For pants, shirts and caps, lambskin is the most common, being more flexible and lighter, with the same quality standards applying, but you can get coats and jackets made from it too, they simply aren't as durable.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

Thanks guys. I guess with leather being a natural product its impossible to get a 'perfectly' consistent piece.

It's possible; it's just very expensive because it involves matching a LOT of hides.

[P]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

I haven't signed up to an image sharing service, so i found an image online which shows a similar issue:



Compare the the panels on the front and ignore the arrows. The panel to the right looks kinda wrinkly and 'distressed' while the panel on the left looks smooth.

In this picture, the left picture is of a high quality panel from the core. The right picture shows a lower quality panel that is not strong enough to stretch itself out - it behaves a bit like tissue paper. This is likely from the waste area under the belly, or at the very least low on the side.

[P]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Some of the best outer shells are made from 12-14 month male calves from countries that have outlawed barbed wire, all because those are the least likely to show any visible defects (it's the same with leather for high-end car interiors; Rolls, Bentley, Ferrari, etc.).

Same with the leather of just about any car, at this point - certainly from the premium segment and up. Cheaper cars may not have a leather option, but if it does, it is going to be the highest quality. The buyer has paid quite a bit more for that option, and expects it to be perfect.

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

IMO, however, that leather looks more like vinyl instead of a natural product, I like a little "character" in a jacket, and to me, a few scars and blemishes make it more interesting (I have a bomber jacket with a faded herd brand in the back, it's one of my favorites).

I agree. The eye will only register it as a defect if it's a single thing - if there are several deviations from the smooth surface, they only add a bit of character. I think everyone who works with leather like this would prefer if the quality standards were a little bit more flexible.

[Hawkeye_a]

I'll uplaod a picture of my jacket later today. but here's another example..... i'm comparing the panels on the front....

The panel on the right definitely looks 'less smooth' than the one on the left.



What do you think?

[Hawkeye_a]

Here you go, what do you guys reckon?

@Laminar, cheers for the link

[andi*pandi]

I think it looks fine. Maybe crumple the whole thing up into a ball to even out the texture?

[P]

That's the same thing - panel to the right in the picture is weaker. You can flatten it out, but it is much more likely to crumple again, as it is weaker.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by P 

That's the same thing

Same thing? what do you mean?

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by P 

Same with the leather of just about any car, at this point - certainly from the premium segment and up. Cheaper cars may not have a leather option, but if it does, it is going to be the highest quality. The buyer has paid quite a bit more for that option, and expects it to be perfect.

I've yet to see a fleet-type car with leather that looks anywhere close to "perfect" when new. It's going to be a standard grade cowhide leather, which is great for upholstery, but wouldn't be used in premium handbags and luggage (which is the same grade used by the highest tier carmakers). It's the difference between a $4000 leather option and $40000+.

[P]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

Same thing? what do you mean?

Same defect as what I described above - weaker leather in the right side panel causes it to wrinkle by itself. On a range that has a thick rubber sheet on one end and tissue paper on the other, the right side panel is closer to the tissue paper.

[P]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

I've yet to see a fleet-type car with leather that looks anywhere close to "perfect" when new. It's going to be a standard grade cowhide leather, which is great for upholstery, but wouldn't be used in premium handbags and luggage (which is the same grade used by the highest tier carmakers). It's the difference between a $4000 leather option and $40000+.

Depends on what you mean by perfect, but when it comes to defects, there is a zero tolerance on most panels. The issue with most automotive leather is that it is quite highly processed to get a high enough yield. This creates a different, more synthetic, feel that what you get on luxury products. OTOH, a luxury handbag would wear out long before passing the kind of cycle tests we do.

[Hawkeye_a]

Thanks.

Also, can someone tell me what 'made using the original pattern' is supposed to mean? Tried googling it to no avail.

Cheers

[Laminar]

What's the context? Is that feature being marketed as a plus? Is this a replica of a classic style?

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

What's the context? Is that feature being marketed as a plus? Is this a replica of a classic style?

Yeah, its a replica of an original. what does 'pattern' refer to?

Cheers

[Laminar]

It sounds as though they were able to get a hold of the layout drawings that were used to make the original piece - it may have been drawings on paper or more complex tools used to punch the individual shapes out of the leather stock. This would supposedly be superior to someone just looking at the original and recreating something similar with new patterns and punches.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

It sounds as though they were able to get a hold of the layout drawings that were used to make the original piece - it may have been drawings on paper or more complex tools used to punch the individual shapes out of the leather stock. This would supposedly be superior to someone just looking at the original and recreating something similar with new patterns and punches.

Oh ok, so it's sort of an overlay, that would go over the hide, and so the panels on the new jackets would come from the same region of the hide as the original? Am i right?

So whats the benefit of this (why is it important or worth mentioning)? Is it related to the 'texture' issue i noticed before?

I'm new to the world of leather

Cheers

PS>>This is the original designer of the jacket, so he has the 'original pattern'. I wasn't sure what original pattern referred to...at first i thought it was the leather hides themselves, or the leather treatment process to get the color

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

Oh ok, so it's sort of an overlay, that would go over the hide, and so the panels on the new jackets would come from the same region of the hide as the original? Am i right?

I'm just speculating here, but I don't think it's that the pieces would necessarily come from the same region, but that the sizing and design would be identical. It's like if you want to make a fender for a 1967 Mustang - you can either get the molds that Ford used originally for a perfect copy, or you can look at a fender and make your own mold based on that fender. Typically you would expect that using the original pattern would give you the most accurate part.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Yeah sounds to me like it has nothing to do with the leather itself per se - it's the pattern for the jacket. Unless that pattern involves specific leather choices.

[Hawkeye_a]

So its like a stencil for each panel, that makes up the 'pattern'? And it can be arranged and cut from any part of the hide?

[P]

The pattern here is the size of each cut piece and the order in which they're sewn together. Presumably he had access to the spec instead of reverse-engineering one jacket with all the defects from the tolerancing disturbing things.

[Hawkeye_a]

Alrighty cheers guys

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by P 

Depends on what you mean by perfect, but when it comes to defects, there is a zero tolerance on most panels. The issue with most automotive leather is that it is quite highly processed to get a high enough yield. This creates a different, more synthetic, feel that what you get on luxury products. OTOH, a luxury handbag would wear out long before passing the kind of cycle tests we do.

That's unfortunately a side effect, I have no doubt that the leather in the Huayra won't stand up to as much wear and abuse. It even comes with special care instructions and requires annual conditioning (semiannual is recommended), it's similar with the F12 Berlinetta. They don't expect people will put 25k kms on these cars each year, or ride around with a mastiff in the passenger seat.