[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by freudling 

It's clear that all this is is some game for you, you aren't interested in the truth of the matter. For those of us spending $2000 on a sub-notebook, it's not a game.

The point is that when you get to the point that you have to start resorting to personal attacks, it’s a sign that you’ve run out of valid arguments.

If you bought a MacBook Air as your primary computer, then you should expect things like this, because the MBA is not intended to be used as a primary computer (frankly, why someone would spend that kind of money on a netbook in the first place eludes me, but then I’m not a millionaire).

Can you take some pictures of the process when you're at work tomorrow? You could post them during your lunch break. I'm sure you guys are busy there pressing lots of Snow Leopard discs. Say, when those Snow Leopard discs are dropped in, do you guys toss them in for fun, like you're shooting a basketball?

WTF?

From our supplier, the best flash memory is about 99% good. You do not have to pay for memory that is faulty: they have a warranty.

How does that answer my question? You stated that flash is better because you can write over it again if the flash drive fails to write because it is defective, and I asked why Apple would ever want to do that.

Actually, you're right, the math is a bit off. Measuring the Snow Leopard DVD package, and drawing out the small, rectangular box for 1 USB stick, you can fit 10 USB sticks in the same space as 1 DVD box. That means a box that holds 100 Snow leopard DVDs will fit 1000 USB sticks. That's a difference of 1000%.

Only if there’s no leaflet explaining how to boot from the stick. Apple likes to be user-friendly.

And I’d still like to know how this would reduce the packaging at all of the MacBook Air you’re complaining about.

We are discussing this because we brought up the idea of Apple making a bold move and going to USB sticks for their OS. This reduces packaging and is better for the environment.

Besides that, it WILL reduce the packaging of their units. If they put all of the software on the USB stick, they won't have to include both the large wallet, and the large indentation in the main plastic well for that wallet. They can then make their package even thinner than it is now. In some cases it will only be slightly thinner, but it will still be reduced. The iPhone is a good example of what they have done. The first iPhone's box is much larger than the latest iPhone. By slightly reducing the size of the AC adapter they managed to make the packaging much smaller.

And as you can see, others agree: Apple should be pre-installing the system on the Air, and that USB is a good idea. That users would be willing to pay $5 or $10 extra to have it done, which beats having to buy a superdrive for $100, or struggling for a few hours to get remote disc to work ourselves. But besides that, it should be pre-installed on a unit costing $2000 that does not have an optical drive. A unit where Apple saved money on not having to assemble into the unit and include an optical drive.

Which MacBook Air costs $2000? I only see a $1499 and $1799 model.

My guess is that Apple will eventually start distributing the OS not on USB drives, but on SD cards — it’s the only way that SD card slot on the new MacBook Pros makes any sense. However, this can’t and won’t happen until the prices come down, whether you’d like to admit it or not.

[Spheric Harlot]

I don't know what freudling's time is worth, but at my hourly rates, those diatribes on the previous page would have more than paid for an external Superdrive.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

The point is that when you get to the point that you have to start resorting to personal attacks, it’s a sign that you’ve run out of valid arguments.

This is not a personal attack. You mentioned that you have "won the argument". That is a clear sign that you are not treating this seriously. It's a game for you.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

If you bought a MacBook Air as your primary computer, then you should expect things like this, because the MBA is not intended to be used as a primary computer (frankly, why someone would spend that kind of money on a netbook in the first place eludes me, but then I’m not a millionaire).

I did not buy the MBA as my primary computer. However, some people do. And why do they do that? Because they choose something more portable than the other laptops. For example, a student. The 2.13 SSD model is a very capable machine. In fact, it has double the L2 cache compared to the MacBook Pro 13", and the same speed frontside bus... the same 256 MB Nvidia graphics card... the only main difference is that its clock speed is slightly less compared to the base model 13" (2.26 Ghz).

While it is more expensive, you say the Air cannot serve as a primary machine. The MacBook Air is more than capable as serving as a primary machine. In fact, it is faster than the entry MacBook: double the L2 cache which means everyday tasks like web surfing is going to be faster. And it has faster RAM (1066 MHz DDR3 RAM vs. 800 MHz DDR 2 in the MacBook). Not to mention that the 2.13 comes with an SSD, making it faster for certain tasks compared to even the top end MacBook Pro 17" with standard SATA.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

WTF?

You talk about failure rates of DVDs and the process of burning software to disc like you work at Apple manufacturing. But I am sure you do not. And your comment on this matter is, for the most part, baseless. The point was to illustrate this.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

How does that answer my question? You stated that flash is better because you can write over it again if the flash drive fails to write because it is defective, and I asked why Apple would ever want to do that.

DVD media can fail because the data does not write properly, and that can be because of something happening with the software, not just defects in the media. If that happens with flash, they can just start over writing to the same memory again without that particular media being wasted. And if the flash is defective, they are covered under warranty. This can reduce manufacturing costs by reducing waste.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Only if there’s no leaflet explaining how to boot from the stick. Apple likes to be user-friendly.

You keep clinging to this. They CAN wrap a leaflet inside the USB packaging in question. But never mind, nobody said they had to include that, you did.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

And I’d still like to know how this would reduce the packaging at all of the MacBook Air you’re complaining about.

I have the MacBook Air packaging in front of my eyes right now. I already explained this. There is one indentation for the Air and another, below it, for the Optical Media wallet, and still another for the AC adapter and cord. If you reduce or eliminate the indentation for the Optical Media wallet, you can reroute the AC adapter and cord and thin out those indentations. You can reduce the depth of the Air's box by at least 1/4" since you can sink the Air further down in the plastic well. By doing this, you can thin the box... the top flap of the box with the sponge sits flush on the top of the Air. Once the Air is sunk down more in the plastic well, you would need to reduce the depth of the box to bring the top of the box down flush with the unit.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Which MacBook Air costs $2000? I only see a $1499 and $1799 model.

If you read the post(s) again, you will see something called "CAD". That means "Canadian Dollars".

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

My guess is that Apple will eventually start distributing the OS not on USB drives, but on SD cards — it’s the only way that SD card slot on the new MacBook Pros makes any sense. However, this can’t and won’t happen until the prices come down, whether you’d like to admit it or not.

This would be the perfect solution, CharlesS, since the MacBook Air does not have an SD card slot. And now we have come full circle...

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by freudling 

This is not a personal attack. You mentioned that you have "won the argument". That is a clear sign that you are not treating this seriously. It's a game for you.

Hello and welcome to the internet.

You must be new here.

[CharlesS]

If it were a game, it sure as hell wouldn't be fun anymore by now. Ugh.

[Simon]

Charles makes a good point. The SD slot on MBPs does indeed only make sense if Apple starts distributing the OS/apps on SD memory.

However, from a user/buyer perspective I fail to see any advantage this could have over a USB stick. In fact, since the slot could be replaced with another two USB ports, I actually see including the SD slot for an OS on SD quite a step back from simply releasing stuff on USB memory.

[CharlesS]

Maybe Apple expects SD cards to be the floppy disks of the future. It does seem more plausible to see a 5 or 10-pack of SD cards than it does with USB sticks, which would help the price go down for consumers. Also, SD cards would stack better than USB drives.

[CharlesS]

Oh, and for freudling: I don’t really feel like arguing with you anymore, but since you seem intent on insisting that commercial DVDs are made by some guy in a basement with a PC and a DVD-R burner, here’s a video you can watch that will give you an idea of how a DVD duplication plant actually works (it’s an ad for a DVD duplication company, so it has a lot of annoying “look how great we are” stuff to skip past, but it does have lots of videos of the machinery working so you can get an idea of what actually goes on). As you can see, the only recordable disc involved that’s burned via software is the master (a.k.a. “golden master”, which is the origin of the term. The golden master is the disc that Apple sends to the duplicators, which is why the GM build is the one that ends up being shipped).

YouTube - Bulk DVD Replication - Duplication

[AKcrab]

Originally Posted by freudling 

In fact, it is faster than the entry MacBook: double the L2 cache which means everyday tasks like web surfing is going to be faster.

More L2 cache will speed up my internet?

[freudling]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Oh, and for freudling: I don’t really feel like arguing with you anymore, but since you seem intent on insisting that commercial DVDs are made by some guy in a basement with a PC and a DVD-R burner, here’s a video you can watch that will give you an idea of how a DVD duplication plant actually works (it’s an ad for a DVD duplication company, so it has a lot of annoying “look how great we are” stuff to skip past, but it does have lots of videos of the machinery working so you can get an idea of what actually goes on). As you can see, the only recordable disc involved that’s burned via software is the master (a.k.a. “golden master”, which is the origin of the term. The golden master is the disc that Apple sends to the duplicators, which is why the GM build is the one that ends up being shipped).

YouTube - Bulk DVD Replication - Duplication

Thanks. And I never stated that Apple gets some guy in a basement to do this.

As for SD cards, I used to think Apple was prepping us for software installs on them, but since they did not offer it on Snow Leopard, at least for the next few years, we won't be seeing them on there. And if they did put them on SD cards, they would be shooting themselves in the foot because not only does the Air not have an SD card slot, the iMac does not either. Neither does the Mac Pro. The entry level MacBook and Mac Mini are also devoid of the SD card slot.

What I have concluded is that Apple put those SD card slots on the units because they felt more people would use them than the Express Slot, which has a very, very low use rate according to stats. Since Mac portables are the tools of choice for film and graphics professionals, it makes sense. But for software installs? Not happening. USB ports are way more pervasive.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by AKcrab 

More L2 cache will speed up my internet?

Yup. It will use it to store frequently accessed html pages, for instance.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Thanks. And I never stated that Apple gets some guy in a basement to do this.

You kept going on about burning software and failure rates which are relevant for DVD+-R, but not so much for DVD-ROM. When I simply pointed out what is fairly common knowledge, you kept on harping on this point with insults and bizarre statements such as that “shooting a basketball” comment.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

You kept going on about burning software and failure rates which are relevant for DVD+-R, but not so much for DVD-ROM. When I simply pointed out what is fairly common knowledge, you kept on harping on this point with insults and bizarre statements such as that “shooting a basketball” comment.

What we have concluded, and as others have agreed, is that Apple should explore providing OS X on a USB stick, at least with products like the Air that are devoid of optical drives. The increased marginal cost, if there is any, is insignificant.

[CharlesS]

“We” have concluded no such thing. The costs are far from insignificant, and will remain so until the price of flash memory falls farther.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Yup. It will use it to store frequently accessed html pages, for instance.

The browser cache is kept directly in the CPU?

Am I even more ignorant, or is that really as funny as I think it is?

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

The browser cache is kept directly in the CPU?

Am I even more ignorant, or is that really as funny as I think it is?

What's so funny about it?

[freudling]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

“We” have concluded no such thing. The costs are far from insignificant, and will remain so until the price of flash memory falls farther.

"We" have concluded such a thing. The increased cost, if there is any, is insignificant. It does not significantly take away from Apple's profits on the MacBook Air. And a USB stick with an OS install image on it is the most practical solution for MacBook Air customers.

Your suggestion of putting the OS on an SD card has already been dealt with: it is a poor choice, because many of Apple's computers do not have SD card slots, but they all have USB ports.

[CharlesS]

Is that a usage of the “royal we” or something? Because all I’ve seen so far is:

• Claims that an 8 GB USB drive can be found for $3 at wholesale, for which you provide no source, so we’re supposed to just take your word for it

• Claims that USB flash drives are sufficiently smaller that you’d be able to fit five of them in the space of one DVD, despite the fact that a typical flash drive is approximately as thick as six DVDs



• Claims that Apple would want to ship an OS upgrade without including any of the little brochures, Apple stickers, licenses, etc. that they typically ship with it

• Claims that a USB flash drive would fit in the Snow Leopard box, despite the fact that the reason the Snow Leopard box is wide to do that is BECAUSE of the aforementioned documentation they ship in the box, and if that were being left out anyway, the package could just be slimmed to the size of a DVD, which wouldn’t fit most flash drives

• Claims that flash drives are “slightly” lighter than DVDs, yet enough so to make a difference in shipping costs, without providing any numbers of course, and no way for us to tell whether you even did a fair comparison, or whether you did something like put the DVD in a jewel case when weighing it

• Claims that DVD burning software and write failure rates of DVD-Rs should somehow have some relevance to commercial DVD replication

• Claims about the cost of “branding” where I still don’t get what point you were trying to make

• Personal insults and attacks, resulting in a modding, to which you respond with nonsensical comments like “you think this is a game”

And even if you take every one of your claims at face value, the USB drive still costs twice as much.

Color me unimpressed. Flash replacing DVDs is like Flash replacing hard drives — it’ll probably happen eventually, and it’ll be great when it does, but we’re not there yet, because of price.

[Andy8]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Maybe Apple expects SD cards to be the floppy disks of the future. It does seem more plausible to see a 5 or 10-pack of SD cards than it does with USB sticks, which would help the price go down for consumers. Also, SD cards would stack better than USB drives.

This is one of my USB sticks, it is just 2mm thick. (please excuse the iPhone 2G camera in poor light)

[CharlesS]

And is that one of the dirt-cheap ones that freudling is surely referring to? Did you pay $3 for it?

[Andy8]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

And is that one of the dirt-cheap ones that freudling is surely referring to? Did you pay $3 for it?

It was a freebie that was mailed inside a magazine I received in the post. (so I am not sure what it would have cost, but it is plenty thin enough)

[CharlesS]

No way to tell then — and probably not high-quality memory either.

What’s the capacity?

[Andy8]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

No way to tell then.

What’s the capacity?

2GB - I got it early last year, so the physical form factor would be suitable, but they would need to have it in 8GB at least to store an OS?

[CharlesS]

It would definitely need to be at least 8 GB.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Is that a usage of the “royal we” or something? Because all I’ve seen so far is:

• Claims that an 8 GB USB drive can be found for $3 at wholesale, for which you provide no source, so we’re supposed to just take your word for it

You won't find wholesale prices on the internet, advertised, because that is privileged information between the supplier and buyer. You would need to find your own supplier(s) and get prices. You might want to start with Alibaba.com - The world's largest online B2B marketplace.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

• Claims that USB flash drives are sufficiently smaller that you’d be able to fit five of them in the space of one DVD, despite the fact that a typical flash drive is approximately as thick as six DVDs

You have failed to understand the relationship between packaging a USB stick and a DVD. As has already been pointed out to you, the current OS X Retail DVD packaging is THICK ENGOUH to fit a USB stick. Now slice it up into many pieces because the length and width of a USB stick is many times smaller than a DVD. Why does Apple use a sort of jewel style box to package DVDs in? One, for the booklet, which you pointed out. Another reason is that the DVD would break if they did not secure it properly.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

• Claims that Apple would want to ship an OS upgrade without including any of the little brochures, Apple stickers, licenses, etc. that they typically ship with it

You are locked to that idea, nobody else is, including Apple. And when we are talking about including this with a computer that they sell, it is irrelevant.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

• Claims that a USB flash drive would fit in the Snow Leopard box, despite the fact that the reason the Snow Leopard box is wide to do that is BECAUSE of the aforementioned documentation they ship in the box, and if that were being left out anyway, the package could just be slimmed to the size of a DVD, which wouldn’t fit most flash drives

Alright CharlesS. Let's reduce the depth of the packaging to just the thickness of the DVD. That would be pretty secure, wouldn't it? You wouldn't have any issues with broken DVDs, because, after all, they don't include jewel cases, as you pointed out.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

• Claims that flash drives are “slightly” lighter than DVDs, yet enough so to make a difference in shipping costs, without providing any numbers of course, and no way for us to tell whether you even did a fair comparison, or whether you did something like put the DVD in a jewel case when weighing it

I will post the numbers when I get home. Thanks for bringing this up, it was something I was meaning to do.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

• Claims that DVD burning software and write failure rates of DVD-Rs should somehow have some relevance to commercial DVD replication

Less waste because flash is rewritable.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

• Claims about the cost of “branding” where I still don’t get what point you were trying to make

The point I am making, the many points I am making, and the fact I have to keep repeating them to only you... is a comparison of fixed manufacturing costs in this context between USB sticks and DVDs.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

• Personal insults and attacks, resulting in a modding, to which you respond with nonsensical comments like “you think this is a game"

You mentioned winning an argument. Clearly this is some type of game for you. That is not a personal attack, it is an interpretation of your comments and approach to this.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Color me unimpressed. Flash replacing DVDs is like Flash replacing hard drives — it’ll probably happen eventually, and it’ll be great when it does, but we’re not there yet, because of price.

It has already happened, just not completely. We don't us portable disc players anymore: flash devices took that over. SSD are starting to take over standard platter drives. And USB sticks have, for the most part, replaced external optical RW drives for backups, file transfers, and the like. Digital downloads for movies via Netflix and iTunes is further pushing optical media out.

Optical media is dead for all but antiquated computer users and some vertical markets. It is a residual part of computing left over from the early-mid 90s when everybody starting using optical media to store data and sell software. When transferring files or backing up some data, a USB flash stick is far superior to CD/DVD-RW. It's faster and more reliable, and it doesn't scratch. It's also a lot more portable.

The whole idea of some glorified record spinning inside a computer is nothing short of ridiculous, especially when you factor in that most people have two components for that: a standard platter hard drive and an optical drive. And especially since flash memory is better.

As a Newton user, I can, as well as many others, attest to how resilient flash is. I have flash cards that are over 15 years old, and have had data written to them, and read from them, many times. They are working perfectly still today.

And SSD drives in computers are way faster for day-to-day use than standard platter hard drives. Not only that, they are lower profile, and their power requirements significantly less. And their price has come down significantly.

With the Air, outside of the OS X debacle, it feels good to be opticalless...

[freudling]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

No way to tell then — and probably not high-quality memory either.

What’s the capacity?

The quality of the memory is irrelevant here, because the poster is discussing the form factor of the USB stick, and that it is thin enough to fit in existing OS X packaging. FYI, the memory I sourced was the best. From my knowledge of it, there are 3 tiers of memory. The first is like Kingston memory... the second tier is memory an outfit like Kingston had discarded during their QA. And the third tier is memory that second tier people may have discarded, or refurbished stuff, etc.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by freudling 

You won't find wholesale prices on the internet, advertised, because that is privileged information between the supplier and buyer. You would need to find your own supplier(s) and get prices. You might want to start with Alibaba.com - The world's largest online B2B marketplace.

Actually, you can find a few sites with wholesale prices on the Internet by Googling for it. What you can’t find is wholesale prices that are $3, so we have to take your word for that. We also have no idea what those flash drives are, or what their dimensions are. I doubt they are the extra-thin kind that tend to cost $30 individually.

You have failed to understand the relationship between packaging a USB stick and a DVD. As has already been pointed out to you, the current OS X Retail DVD packaging is THICK ENGOUH to fit a USB stick. Now slice it up into many pieces because the length and width of a USB stick is many times smaller than a DVD. Why does Apple use a sort of jewel style box to package DVDs in? One, for the booklet, which you pointed out. Another reason is that the DVD would break if they did not secure it properly.

Or you could just use a cardboard sleeve, like Apple did with the version of Leopard that got sent to ADC members. I’ve got one of those right on my desk. Because it’s a freebie, it doesn’t have the booklet and other extras that were in the regular Leopard box. However, it’s perfectly secure and won’t break, and a flash drive won’t fit in it.

You are locked to that idea, nobody else is, including Apple.

Got a source for that? (I’ve got the fact that Apple’s included said materials with every OS upgrade they’ve ever sold. What’ve you got?)

And when we are talking about including this with a computer that they sell, it is irrelevant.

So is the size of the packaging.

Alright CharlesS. Let's reduce the depth of the packaging to just the thickness of the DVD. That would be pretty secure, wouldn't it? You wouldn't have any issues with broken DVDs, because, after all, they don't include jewel cases, as you pointed out.

Never had a problem with the one I got from ADC.

Less waste because flash is rewritable.

Why would Apple want to rewrite a flash drive once they’d already written on it?

The point I am making, the many points I am making, and the fact I have to keep repeating them to only you... is a comparison of fixed manufacturing costs in this context between USB sticks and DVDs.

Why exactly you keep doing that is a mystery, because I’ve never said anything about the cost of branding.

You mentioned winning an argument. Clearly this is some type of game for you. That is not a personal attack, it is an interpretation of your comments and approach to this.

That was a response to these personal attacks. I was pointing out that doing so betrays a weak argument. I could make a comment about the implications of your not understanding this, but I won’t stoop to your level.

It has already happened, just not completely. We don't us portable disc players anymore: flash devices took that over. SSD are starting to take over standard platter drives. And USB sticks have, for the most part, replaced external optical RW drives for backups, file transfers, and the like. Digital downloads for movies via Netflix and iTunes is further pushing optical media out.

Optical media is dead for all but antiquated computer users and some vertical markets. It is a residual part of computing left over from the early-mid 90s when everybody starting using optical media to store data and sell software. When transferring files or backing up some data, a USB flash stick is far superior to CD/DVD-RW. It's faster and more reliable, and it doesn't scratch. It's also a lot more portable.

Tell that to someone who wants to send something to someone else that’s too big to send via e-mail. Currently that means burning a CD or DVD unless you want to throw away $15 on a flash drive.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Actually, you can find a few sites with wholesale prices on the Internet by Googling for it. What you can’t find is wholesale prices that are $3, so we have to take your word for that. We also have no idea what those flash drives are, or what their dimensions are. I doubt they are the extra-thin kind that tend to cost $30 individually.

You seem to be really grasping for things now. No idea what those flash drives are? They are all so similar in form factor, that this is a non-issue. But once you get to the bottom of this post, you will see that the flash drive is thin, like 99% of USB sticks are. And it's the one I fit into the Snow Leopard packaging.

This is just a strawman. USB sticks do not need to be "extra-thin" to be thin, and they don't need to be "extra-thin" to fit inside a Snow Leopard Retail box.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Or you could just use a cardboard sleeve, like Apple did with the version of Leopard that got sent to ADC members. I’ve got one of those right on my desk. Because it’s a freebie, it doesn’t have the booklet and other extras that were in the regular Leopard box. However, it’s perfectly secure and won’t break, and a flash drive won’t fit in it.

A flash drive will fit in. But there is no need for the extra width and height in the cardboard packaging because of the USB's much smaller form factor. And if you want to put the USB stick in cardboard, the amount of cardboard used will be much less than the sleeve for the disc.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Got a source for that? (I’ve got the fact that Apple’s included said materials with every OS upgrade they’ve ever sold. What’ve you got?)

The point is that they don't have to keep including it. You are the one locked into that idea. And you also mentioned: Where will they put the stickers if we reduce packaging for USB Sticks? First, they could wrap them up in there, and could include them. But the stickers are absurd. Why Apple still includes these...

I am certain most people do not use those stickers, ever, and they are just environmental waste. Apple should keep with its environmental friendliness, and eliminate the stickers. If you want stickers, they could make them available for free in limited quantities at Apple Retail Stores...

It will both help save them money and the environment.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

So is the size of the packaging.

You are getting a bit lost in this? There are two issues: 1. Including a USB stick with OS X on it with products like the MacBook Air 2. Extending the latter practice to all products and even standalone retail versions of OS X. As I have highlighted, there are many benefits to doing either just one of both of these things.

But as I have already pointed out, CharlesS, by eliminating the DVD wallet, you can thin out the box of, for instance, the MacBook Air. Packaging counts, and it is relevant here.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Why would Apple want to rewrite a flash drive once they’d already written on it?

If there's write errors, they can reuse it.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

That was a response to these personal attacks. I was pointing out that doing so betrays a weak argument. I could make a comment about the implications of your not understanding this, but I won’t stoop to your level.

And pointing out that you are being personally attacked is a sign of a weak argument on your behalf, because you feel frustrated and now try to detract away from the issue, putting focus on the parties involved.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Tell that to someone who wants to send something to someone else that’s too big to send via e-mail. Currently that means burning a CD or DVD unless you want to throw away $15 on a flash drive.

No, it doesn't. That's what services like YouSendIt - Send large files - transfer delivery - FTP Replacement are for, and that's why people and companies have their own servers to host data on. Optical media is not needed.

Now, onto the promise of the weights. I am sorry CharlesS, but the data below is probably not what you want to hear. The USB stick is over half as light as the Snow Leopard DVD. And that USB stick is 16 GB. The 8 GB USB stick will be lighter.

Snow Leopard DVD with clear plastic sleeve: .018 kg
16 GB USB Stick with plastic cap: .008 kg

The link will take you to a picture of each being weighed at the post office. Is there anything else?

Flickr: freudling's Photostream

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by freudling 

You seem to be really grasping for things now. No idea what those flash drives are? They are all so similar in form factor, that this is a non-issue. But once you get to the bottom of this post, you will see that the flash drive is thin, like 99% of USB sticks are. And it's the one I fit into the Snow Leopard packaging.

Therefore, it’ll be the size of the one I took a picture of, the one that’s 6 times as thick as a DVD.

This is just a strawman. USB sticks do not need to be "extra-thin" to be thin, and they don't need to be "extra-thin" to fit inside a Snow Leopard Retail box.

Strawman? What did I accuse you of saying that you didn’t say?

You are, of course, accusing me of saying something I didn’t say — namely, that a flash drive would need to be extra thin to fit in the Snow Leopard box. That is a strawman.

A flash drive will fit in. But there is no need for the extra width and height in the cardboard packaging because of the USB's much smaller form factor. And if you want to put the USB stick in cardboard, the amount of cardboard used will be much less than the sleeve for the disc.

But it will be thicker, and you’d have to leave out the physical documentation.

The point is that they don't have to keep including it. You are the one locked into that idea. And you also mentioned: Where will they put the stickers if we reduce packaging for USB Sticks? First, they could wrap them up in there, and could include them. But the stickers are absurd. Why Apple still includes these…

Apple includes the leaflet because they like to be easy to use. It also contains important information that it’s in Apple’s best interest to include, such as contact information. The system requirements are another (printed on the box in Snow Leopard, but there needs to be room to do that).

Not to mention that if you moved to a flash drive, the method most people to use to boot from the install disc, holding down the C key at startup, wouldn’t work. Apple would have to include instructions to tell novice users how to boot from the drive in the case of an emergency, if nothing else.

You are getting a bit lost in this?

Would you please quit doing that?

But as I have already pointed out, CharlesS, by eliminating the DVD wallet, you can thin out the box of, for instance, the MacBook Air. Packaging counts, and it is relevant here.

Dude, the computer is going to determine the size of that box, what you use for an install disc isn’t going to affect it one bit.

If there's write errors, they can reuse it.

No matter what kind of drive you’re using, if it’s got issues that are causing I/O errors, then it needs to be thrown away. Reusing a drive of any sort in that situation would just be foolish. Besides, if it’s messed up enough to give you I/O errors once, it’ll just give the same errors when you try it again. Plus, as I said, Apple doesn’t have some guy that makes these individually on a computer, so they’re not going to have the opportunity to do this (you think they go through every individual disc they send out by hand?).

And pointing out that you are being personally attacked is a sign of a weak argument on your behalf, because you feel frustrated and now try to detract away from the issue, putting focus on the parties involved.

Dude, that’s what you’re doing by making it personal. I bring it up because it pisses me off and is likely to get you an infraction if you keep doing it (you seem to already have gotten a warning once from a mod in this thread).

No, it doesn't. That's what services like YouSendIt - Send large files - transfer delivery - FTP Replacement are for, and that's why people and companies have their own servers to host data on. Optical media is not needed.

Do you have any idea how long it takes to upload 8 GB of data from a DSL connection? Aside from being slow, services like that are also not as secure.

Now, onto the promise of the weights. I am sorry CharlesS, but the data below is probably not what you want to hear. The USB stick is over half as light as the Snow Leopard DVD.

Half as light… heh. So the USB stick is twice as heavy, then. Great. But seriously, that means that it will be “only” twice as expensive, assuming that you’re not pulling the $3 price out of your ass, and assuming that your $3 flash drive is somehow magically as thin as a DVD and that Apple suddenly will decide to ship no paper documentation with the disk. Which is actually quite a big set of assumptions, but hey.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Therefore, it’ll be the size of the one I took a picture of, the one that’s 6 times as thick as a DVD.

Then yours is not the standard. The USB sticks we have are not that thick. But never mind, because you know, and as others have pointed out, the USB stick fits in existing Snow Leopard packaging. They don't need to make the packaging ANY THICKER.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

But it will be thicker, and you’d have to leave out the physical documentation.

No, it won't, and you don't have to leave out documentation. You can make it leaflet style.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Apple includes the leaflet because they like to be easy to use. It also contains important information that it’s in Apple’s best interest to include, such as contact information. The system requirements are another (printed on the box in Snow Leopard, but there needs to be room to do that).

They can revamp everything and make the packaging much smaller. They've been doing it for years. Both their products and their packaging are minimalist.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Dude, the computer is going to determine the size of that box, what you use for an install disc isn’t going to affect it one bit.

We've been through this and I provided an objective analysis of the packaging of the, for instance, MacBook Air. The computer is not the only thing that determines the size of the packaging. Another example: the iPhone. The ac adapter partly determined the size of the packaging on rev. 1 units. The iPhone 3GS has a smaller AC adapter and they were able to then reduce the size of the packaging, and by a significant amount...

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

No matter what kind of drive you’re using, if it’s got issues that are causing I/O errors, then it needs to be thrown away. Reusing a drive of any sort in that situation would just be foolish. Besides, if it’s messed up enough to give you I/O errors once, it’ll just give the same errors when you try it again. Plus, as I said, Apple doesn’t have some guy that makes these individually on a computer, so they’re not going to have the opportunity to do this (you think they go through every individual disc they send out by hand?).

Errors happen from the software too.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Dude, that’s what you’re doing by making it personal. I bring it up because it pisses me off and is likely to get you an infraction if you keep doing it (you seem to already have gotten a warning once from a mod in this thread).

Two Dudes in one post...

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Do you have any idea how long it takes to upload 8 GB of data from a DSL connection? Aside from being slow, services like that are also not as secure.

Not long. Without these services, my business and my clients would be lost. In fact, some of my best clients, including big consulting firms, introduced us to these services. And as for security, if you are really worried about that, then you need to rethink how you distribute materials because the postal service is not itself secure either.

And if you want to talk security, I can, because we hold a security clearance and can have classified documents on site. I know all the policies. Yousendit is secure and good for non-classified stuff. If you don't want to give your information to a third party, then you do what most everyone does: you host the non-classified files yourself and give secure access to those that need it.

At any rate, yousendit, for instance, is very fast, in fact, way faster than burning and sending Discs through post. Not only that, it's way cheaper.

And when you host them yourself, you get the same benefit.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Half as light… heh. So the USB stick is twice as heavy, then. Great. But seriously, that means that it will be “only” twice as expensive, assuming that you’re not pulling the $3 price out of your ass, and assuming that your $3 flash drive is somehow magically as thin as a DVD and that Apple suddenly will decide to ship no paper documentation with the disk. Which is actually quite a big set of assumptions, but hey.

You are right, that was my mistake. The USB stick is less than half the weight compared to the DVD with plastic insert. And nobody said they had to ship the USB sticks without any documentation. The length and width of the USB stick is so many times smaller than a DVD that you can fit many more in the same space as a DVD with some documentation inserted. And I did not include the cardboard cover that the DVD comes in.

At any rate, when the shipping charges come in, 200 USB sticks will weigh even less than 100 DVDs.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Then yours is not the standard. The USB sticks we have are not that thick. But never mind, because you know, and as others have pointed out, the USB stick fits in existing Snow Leopard packaging. They don't need to make the packaging ANY THICKER.

I’ve got a Verbatim and a Hitachi here, and they’re both about the same thickness — about 6 DVDs. The only flash drive I’ve got that’s less than that is a LaCie iamakey, which is only about 2 DVDs. It also cost $30.

And the point is not that they would need to make the packaging any thicker (unless of course they included the booklets, which they of course would), but that they couldn’t make it any thinner. If they take out the booklet, then they could leave it the same thickness, but if they were going to do that, they could stay with a DVD and make it thinner than the Snow Leopard box. I’m not sure how many times I’m going to have to repeat this.

No, it won't, and you don't have to leave out documentation. You can make it leaflet style.

Which will still have to increase either the thickness or the width of the packaging. A leaflet has to go somewhere.

They can revamp everything and make the packaging much smaller. They've been doing it for years. Both their products and their packaging are minimalist.

Yes, the current packaging is already quite minimalist.

We've been through this and I provided an objective analysis of the packaging of the, for instance, MacBook Air. The computer is not the only thing that determines the size of the packaging. Another example: the iPhone. The ac adapter partly determined the size of the packaging on rev. 1 units. The iPhone 3GS has a smaller AC adapter and they were able to then reduce the size of the packaging, and by a significant amount…

The install disc determines the size of the MacBook Air in the same sense that a dog collar determines the size of the dog.

Errors happen from the software too.

What software?!

Not long. Without these services, my business and my clients would be lost. In fact, some of my best clients, including big consulting firms, introduced us to these services. And as for security, if you are really worried about that, then you need to rethink how you distribute materials because the postal service is not itself secure either.

It’s more secure than putting stuff into the cloud. And handing a DVD to someone in person is more secure than anything.

At any rate, yousendit, for instance, is very fast, in fact, way faster than burning and sending Discs through post. Not only that, it's way cheaper.

It also doesn’t work at all. I just looked at their site and they don’t even let you send files over 2 GB, period. This would seem to be a pretty lame solution.

And even if it did allow large files to be sent, a standard DSL account has 512 Kbps upload. Sending 8 GB over that would take about 36 hours. The postal service might well get the disc there faster, and even if it doesn’t, it’ll certainly require less time for you to sit there babysitting it (especially if you’ve got a laptop and you might want to, you know, actually go somewhere with it). Even a fast cable connection with an 8 gigabit upload is still going to take about 2.28 hours, which is still annoying, especially if you come back to find that the transfer failed partway in and you have to start over. Burning a disc, on the other hand, takes only a few minutes of your time, and if you are able to hand the disc to the recipient in person, transfer is instantaneous.

Also: a decent account on Yousendit is $30 a month. I don’t understand how that’s cheaper than a $0.25 disc and possibly a buck or two of postage unless you do this a lot.

And when you host them yourself, you get the same benefit.

Well, this requires you to have a web hosting account. Most people don’t. And then, you’ve got to have at least 8 GB of space free on the hosting account. Not all do. Plus, you have to have the knowledge of how to set up security on a hosting account. Very few people do. Sure, if you’re a geek, it’s doable, but even then it’s still much more of a hassle than just burning a disc and mailing it. Sneakernet’s still got its place, and it always will. Flash media may eventually take over that role, but not until it gets cheaper.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

I’ve got a Verbatim and a Hitachi here, and they’re both about the same thickness — about 6 DVDs. The only flash drive I’ve got that’s less than that is a LaCie iamakey, which is only about 2 DVDs. It also cost $30.

And the point is not that they would need to make the packaging any thicker (unless of course they included the booklets, which they of course would), but that they couldn’t make it any thinner. If they take out the booklet, then they could leave it the same thickness, but if they were going to do that, they could stay with a DVD and make it thinner than the Snow Leopard box. I’m not sure how many times I’m going to have to repeat this.

Forget your closed minded view of packaging. Let's look at how a USB sticks can save space, and, heaven forbid, that Apple would actually shrink their packaging to take advantage of the change in media.

Stack your six discs up, I'll even give you that, but its not that many. I just measured. 5 DVDs equal the thickness of 1 standard USB stick. I used three different USB sticks to measure. But i'll give you 6 DVDs.

So, picture it, you have six DVDs stacked in a little box that just fits six DVDs. You have stripped all of the packaging away during this experiment. Now, how many USB sticks can you fit in that same volume of space? Since DVDs are several times the width and "length" of the USB stick, you can fit MANY more USB sticks in that same space. In fact, I just tested it, and you can fit 11 USB sticks in the same space as a stack of 6 DVDs. 1 DVD has a diameter of roughly 12 cm. We can just refer to that as its "width". The USB stick averages out at 1.75 cm wide. That means 7 USB sticks fit the little 6 DVD box across one way. And another 5 can be placed in that same box above and below these sticks.

Thus, you can fit almost double the amount of USB sticks in the same space as the stack of 6 DVDs in this experiment. And with almost double the product, the weight is actually less than the stack of 6 DVDs.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

The install disc determines the size of the MacBook Air in the same sense that a dog collar determines the size of the dog.

Wrong. But you have already read the analysis and you are being incredulous.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

It’s more secure than putting stuff into the cloud. And handing a DVD to someone in person is more secure than anything.

Post your data that shows how sending a file with a service like YouSendIt - Send large files - transfer delivery - FTP Replacement is less secure than sending a DVD via post. Also, post the data that supports that handing a DVD to someone in person is more secure than "anything".

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

It also doesn’t work at all. I just looked at their site and they don’t even let you send files over 2 GB, period. This would seem to be a pretty lame solution.

Ya, pretty lame CharlesS. How horrible a service: they charge us $10 a month and we can send files up to 2 GB per transfer to anyone with an Email address. And they have a Mac OS X java app that allows the user to drag and drop files to send. In the "real" world, businesses and people like me use this service constantly. And when we want to send videos and such that are larger, or more sensitive materials, we just post them to our secure server and tunnel in to download. All of the data is encrypted, in fact, better than most banks. All this means that optical drives and the postal system is not needed, and it speeds up project delivery times markedly, and saves us tons of money is express post costs yearly.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

And even if it did allow large files to be sent, a standard DSL account has 512 Kbps upload. Sending 8 GB over that would take about 36 hours. The postal service might well get the disc there faster, and even if it doesn’t, it’ll certainly require less time for you to sit there babysitting it (especially if you’ve got a laptop and you might want to, you know, actually go somewhere with it). Even a fast cable connection with an 8 gigabit upload is still going to take about 2.28 hours, which is still annoying, especially if you come back to find that the transfer failed partway in and you have to start over. Burning a disc, on the other hand, takes only a few minutes of your time, and if you are able to hand the disc to the recipient in person, transfer is instantaneous.

Nice try, but in the "real" world, most people and all legitimate businesses have fast internet. And the standard upload speed across all 50 states, according to the latest report by the Communications Workers of America, it is 1.1 mbps upload speeds, not 512 kbps as you claimed.

If you feel you have slow internet CharlesS, I wouldn't worry about it too much, because the US is in 28th spot in internet connection speeds in comparison to the other countries in the report.

Our current upload speed, for example, is tested, real world, at 15 MB per second. It's fiber optic, and many Canadian cities are wired for it. It costs less than $90 a month for this access. And that's slow compared to what many other businesses on Bell's business network get. So far, after the many years in business, nobody complains about uploading or downloading files. They much prefer it over sending things via post.

Taking the baseline US upload speed rate, you can get a large blueray movie over to someone in far less than 24 hours. When we are talking business and professionals exchanging things, they will have faster internet than baseline. At any rate, the whole point of doing this is to negate the need for business and professionals having to send each other media. And that time has come that technology has supplanted the postal service in this regard. I know, because I have hundreds of clients and work in the industries where this is happening.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Also: a decent account on Yousendit is $30 a month. I don’t understand how that’s cheaper than a $0.25 disc and possibly a buck or two of postage unless you do this a lot.

False. A decent account is not $30 per month. That is their Business Plus account and we don't even need that, because it just adds stuff like site drop, customized email notifications, etc. that we and many of our customers and business associates never use. We just need something to send large files, period. And yousendit does it for 10 bucks a month. We get much more than our monies worth out of it, since express posting 1 disc is close to $30. Then you have to wait around to receive and sign for it, etc. Just curious, can you post a link to where a consumer can you buy a recordable disc that can store 2 GB plus of data for $.25?

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Well, this requires you to have a web hosting account. Most people don’t. And then, you’ve got to have at least 8 GB of space free on the hosting account. Not all do. Plus, you have to have the knowledge of how to set up security on a hosting account. Very few people do. Sure, if you’re a geek, it’s doable, but even then it’s still much more of a hassle than just burning a disc and mailing it. Sneakernet’s still got its place, and it always will. Flash media may eventually take over that role, but not until it gets cheaper.

Yousendit, and the many other services like it, is excellent for many people since you can send much larger files to each other where Email is limited. When you get past a certain threshold, you can then host it yourself. And, CharlesS, believe it or not, people actually do host their own files, and give people access via ftp to those files. Photographers, graphic designers, film production companies... all of which I work with on a daily basis do this exact thing.

And we can break down the markets. Consumers - nerds sharing large files with each other. The average consumer... you think they are in constant need of sending each other packets of optical media express post... no, they are not.

Then businesses who have their own intranets and file servers. These are now quite intricate, fast and user friendly. Without these digital networks of files, businesses would virtually implode...

Typical scenario: you've got sales agents in Iraq, home office in Northern Canada, another office in Toronto, and you have loads of files associated with an RFP that the team needs access to. And Mary just posted a new document that needs to be edited and prepped for a meeting in Russia, where another small team is flying to the next day. These documents are about 100 MB in size a piece. You can't Email, but you can send them via yousendit, or download it from the company file server.

This is reality.

We are talking about digital downloading supplanting the need to send optical media. It's happened. Sorry if you are incredulous, but it has happened. And software sales are proof of it too. Most people download software now, they don't wait for it to come in the mail on Disc. And businesses don't wait for optical media either. Unless it is sensitive information that is classified and not to be sent via electronic means.

But people and businesses really want to just use optical media, and find replacing them with downloading and trading files on the internet "lame".

You mean yousendit has 10 million users? You mean a service such as that, what with how insecure it is, has customers such as Disney, eBay, Shell Oil, Sprint, Starbucks, and the U.S. Army. Or how most every legitimate business has its own file server complete with a network of computers and high speed internet access.

And that many government agencies and businesses have built their own, custom file serving solutions so subcontractors and employees can easily interface with the files at the company, no matter where they are located. You mean they are doing all of this because they just want to use optical media?

Indeed CharlesS, indeed.

[Spheric Harlot]

Digital downloading has NOT supplanted physical media for anything larger than a couple hundred MB, and certainly not for complete operating systems.

And it won't until bandwidth constraints have been sorted.

The exception being Linux systems, which aren't downloaded directly, but spread via peer-to-peer sharing mechanisms like BitTorrent.


However, I must admit that in what must have been hour-long diatribe compositions, I've rather lost track of what in holy hell you're actually trying to argue.

Next up: the violation of your constitutional rights by Apple's failure to include a USB stick loaded with file-sharing software keyed to allow easy download of the newest operating system upgrade.

[AKcrab]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

However, I must admit that in what must have been hour-long diatribe compositions, I've rather lost track of what in holy hell you're actually trying to argue.

The inverse of the package size is directly proportional to the inverse of the square of the difference between the mass of a hypothetical usb stick to the mass of 6 dvd's.

I think.

Or maybe that apple is lazy.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by AKcrab 

inverse … package size … proportional … mass … stick

err, what?

[CharlesS]

I don’t really want to go through all that, but.

Originally Posted by freudling 

Post your data that shows how sending a file with a service like YouSendIt - Send large files - transfer delivery - FTP Replacement is less secure than sending a DVD via post. Also, post the data that supports that handing a DVD to someone in person is more secure than "anything”.

I don’t think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out how giving a DVD to someone, where the only people handling the DVD are you and the recipient would be more secure than putting it on the Internet for anyone who can guess the URL to download it (given that the only security options mentioned in this chart seem to require that $30 plan that you say we don’t need).

The post office is less secure than that, but still more secure than putting it up on the network for people to hack away at from the safety and anonymity of their own home. Tampering with the mail is still a risk of getting charged with a federal offense.

Nice try, but in the "real" world, most people and all legitimate businesses have fast internet. And the standard upload speed across all 50 states, according to the latest report by the Communications Workers of America, it is 1.1 mbps upload speeds, not 512 kbps as you claimed.

Since you don’t seem to actually live in America, you should probably refrain from spouting off “facts” when you don’t understand the subject. DSL has slow upload speeds — I know, because for the last few years I had a DSL account I was paying AT&T about $45 a month for, and it has 256 kbps upload. I checked AT&T’s current DSL tiers on their website before posting, and the current plans have 384 kbps, 384 kbps, 512 kbps, and 768 kbps respectively. Fiber is better if you’re lucky enough to have it in your city, but many places don’t have it available. Cable providers like Comcast are faster, but they’re infamous for throttling heavy users to cut down on their bandwidth costs, and if you’re sending 8 GB files regularly, I’d think you’d be almost guaranteed to end up on that list.

Even taking the 1.1 Mbps number for granted, that’s still “only” 16.5 hours to send an an 8 GB file. The chances of your connection remaining continuously stable for that long with the shitty connectivity options in this country are virtually nil.

If you feel you have slow internet CharlesS, I wouldn't worry about it too much, because the US is in 28th spot in internet connection speeds in comparison to the other countries in the report.

Yes, the communication infrastructure in this country sucks, for reasons that would get this thread moved to the political lounge (where it would die a slow death… hey, maybe that’s not a bad idea).

Just curious, can you post a link to where a consumer can you buy a recordable disc that can store 2 GB plus of data for $.25?

Yup. 18 cents each. Or, if you are willing to pay a little more for really good media… 29 cents each.

Yousendit, and the many other services like it, is excellent for many people since you can send much larger files to each other where Email is limited. When you get past a certain threshold, you can then host it yourself. And, CharlesS, believe it or not, people actually do host their own files, and give people access via ftp to those files.

FTP?! Anyone who’s still using that horrible, insecure, outdated protocol needs to quit.

Most people, of course, don’t even know what hosting is. But they do know how to burn something onto a disc and send it to someone, out here in the real world.

Actually, you know what? This is a massive waste of time. Let’s just do this. Wait six months, and see if Apple has stopped shipping their OS on DVD. If they have, then you were right. If they don’t, then you were wrong (or you’re just that much more brilliant than Steve Jobs ). Agreed?

[cgc]

Wow, I've never seen a thread quite like this one where someone (freudling) argues every single point made by everyone in here. I agree with his original statment, but he's come off as an arrogant know-it-all.

[imitchellg5]

And now we can argue about how we perceive each other. YESSSSSSSS.

[Spheric Harlot]

Turning the subject onto something (hopefully) worthwhile:

What's with your sig, imitchell?

[freudling]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

I don’t really want to go through all that, but.


I don’t think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out how giving a DVD to someone, where the only people handling the DVD are you and the recipient would be more secure than putting it on the Internet for anyone who can guess the URL to download it (given that the only security options mentioned in this chart seem to require that $30 plan that you say we don’t need).

You should only use yousendit for non-sensitive information. And I just sent 2 files with yousendit today. I will give you my lifes savings and all my possessions if you get the URLs of those two files...

In point of fact, you won't be able to guess the URLs, and you know it, and most everyone else in the population won't be able to either. Not only that, but people wouldn't both care to think about doing this or bother trying, either. It's low risk. Very low risk.

At any rate, things that are modestly sensitive that we send with yousendit are zipped, encrypted and password protected. Unless you have the password to open that file, it won't open. And the average person will not be able to hack it, either. Again, it's very low risk.

And sending links to people's Emails for something as sensitive as deposting money into a bank account is good enough for every major bank in Canada with Interac Email Money Transfers. But nevermind, people don't use yousendit to transmit state secrets, and it's absurd to even think that yousendit is anything more than a medium through which millions of people share files with each other that are not overly sensitive.

If it's that sensitive, then you serve it and provide access yourself, which is what every legitimate business, professional and government agency does. Anytime you hand your information to a third-party risk goes up. That's why classified information above a certain threshold is never sent via the national postal service.

And the answer to what is the most secure way of passing on information, what most every military and government on the planet does with sensitive information above, usually, Level II (Secret), is provide it in paper only, and they use their own intra-postal service. That paper is then stored in safes onsite, where only a few people have access to it.

There are special COM-SEC terminals to store and disseminate more sensitive information than Level II Secret, but they are limited too.

Typewriters are in fact still used for the purposes of relaying very sensitive information.

At any rate, for information that is too sensitive to send electronically, very sensitive information, trans-border or within a country itself, it is then flown, with a carrier who has the information in a case locked to his/her wrist, to the point of destination.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

The post office is less secure than that, but still more secure than putting it up on the network for people to hack away at from the safety and anonymity of their own home. Tampering with the mail is still a risk of getting charged with a federal offense.

Post your data that shows the national post office is more secure than putting data up on a network for people to hack away at. The military, the US military, the FBI, the CIA, CSIS, Interpol, the RCMP, etc., they do have some IT challenges... but have all decided that secure networks are good enough to store sensitives. And it is much more timely for them too. Successfully hacking their networks is not something most people will be able to do. It is low risk because of this. But nothing is perfect and everything can be compromised, including your Gmail/Hotmail/Yaoo account that millions of people use, etc.

And they would be interested in hearing your argument because they share sensitive information to a certain threshold electronically across your country, our country, and the world.

And tampering with networks is not only a federal offense in your country, but can get people extradited from abroad to your country for prosecution, like Gary McKinnon.

Fury as hacker Gary McKinnon is refused permission to appeal extradition - The Daily Record

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Since you don’t seem to actually live in America, you should probably refrain from spouting off “facts” when you don’t understand the subject. DSL has slow upload speeds — I know, because for the last few years I had a DSL account I was paying AT&T about $45 a month for, and it has 256 kbps upload. I checked AT&T’s current DSL tiers on their website before posting, and the current plans have 384 kbps, 384 kbps, 512 kbps, and 768 kbps respectively. Fiber is better if you’re lucky enough to have it in your city, but many places don’t have it available. Cable providers like Comcast are faster, but they’re infamous for throttling heavy users to cut down on their bandwidth costs, and if you’re sending 8 GB files regularly, I’d think you’d be almost guaranteed to end up on that list.

This is just frustrated dribble. I provide information that is supported, you, for the most part, act out of frustration and post emotionally charged statements so you can try and skew a point into your favour. What is to be understood is that the report I accessed provides an average upload speed for all 50 States. Again, that's 1.1 mbps, not your claimed 512 kbps that is baseless.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Even taking the 1.1 Mbps number for granted, that’s still “only” 16.5 hours to send an an 8 GB file. The chances of your connection remaining continuously stable for that long with the shitty connectivity options in this country are virtually nil.

Post data to support your claim that there is a very low chance of someone successfully uploading a file that is 8 GB in size. At any rate, there are many businesses and even consumers in the US who have faster upload speeds than baseline, and it will take them much less time to upload an 8 GB file. Moreover, confining yourself to thinking that everyone is going to be sending 8 GB files everytime they exchange information, and that that cancels out any benefit of downloading and sharing files over the internet is absurd.

If you pan back to the mid 90s, we did not have all of this technology, and the Internet was too new for most people to able transfer large amounts of information over the internet. You have a 900 MB file? You better burn it and send it via post because people did not have the quick, easy facility and know how that we do today to transfer that over the internet.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

FTP?! Anyone who’s still using that horrible, insecure, outdated protocol needs to quit.

Many people do use it, and it is not horrible. At any rate, you know that you can use many secure methods to connect remotely to data. That includes Apple's built in VPN infrastructure that allows a person to tunnel into their network where all data is encrypted.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Most people, of course, don’t even know what hosting is. But they do know how to burn something onto a disc and send it to someone, out here in the real world.

Post data that shows that most people don't know what hosting is. And for the awareness of online file transfer services, it's funny too, because yousendit's growth rate is at 250,000 new users per month. And with over 25 billion webpages indexed on search engines, and the explosion of personal Blogs, it's foolish to say that most people don't know what hosting their own information is, whether that's with a free service like Blogger or on their own.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Actually, you know what? This is a massive waste of time. Let’s just do this. Wait six months, and see if Apple has stopped shipping their OS on DVD. If they have, then you were right. If they don’t, then you were wrong (or you’re just that much more brilliant than Steve Jobs ). Agreed?

First, Apple will not stop shipping their OS on DVD, there is a good chance of that. And I never said neither did I imply that I thought they would. What I have discussed is that, I made a case such that Apple ought to provide an OS on a USB stick. It's not only a practical solution for people like me, who own an opticalless drive computer, but it is also practical for Apple (good for the environment because of less packaging, smaller form factor allowing them to save on shipping, the fact that all of their units have USB ports but not all of them have optical drives, etc.).

So no, by Apple not releasing OS X on a USB in six months, that does not make any of the positive aspects of USB memory "wrong" or "invalid". I do understand though, that you seem to be confused that I am saying that Apple will release them in 6 months. But that is wrong. I never said that.

Let's take the other aspect of what you are saying and explore the absurdity of your conjecture that USB memory is wrong and invalid for OS X if Apple decides not to release it in 6 months, let's take an example. Let's say Apple does not release a USB stick version of OS X in 6 months. As you say, I/we who are proponents of USB would be wrong. So, for instance, USB sticks would all of a sudden be heavier than DVDs; they would require more packaging, not less. They would not be rewritable any longer. Etc.

And to the other poster, CharlesS is the one pushing the issue. He gets into pedantics. The bottom line is, USB sticks are a viable option for putting OS install images onto, but he keeps trying to argue against it. Moreover, the Internet and iTunes has greatly taken away the need for people to use optical media. From downloading and purchasing digital copies of music and movies, to sharing files over file servers and services like yousendit. It's CharlesS's incredulity that has engendered this discourse.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by freudling 

The bottom line is, USB sticks are a viable option for putting OS install images onto, but he keeps trying to argue against it.

Ah, so *this* is the actual point you've been making?

It got completely lost among pages and pages and pages of essays.

Bottom line is, USB sticks are at least an order of magnitude more expensive, and not a viable option AT THE MOMENT.

Case closed.

Originally Posted by freudling 

Moreover, the Internet and iTunes has taken away the need for people to use optical media. From downloading and purchasing digital copies of music and movies, to sharing files over file servers and services like yousendit. It's CharlesS's incredulity that has engendered this discourse.

This is true for music, and to a certain degree, for video.

I recall this thread originally having been about methods of delivering system software.

The internet has NOT supplanted optical media as the preferred means of distribution in that case, yet.



That, in a nutshell, is the entire argument boiled down to two points for the less patient than CharlesS.

[CharlesS]

And since my patience has pretty much run out and I really don’t have the time to read any more essay-length posts, I’m going to reiterate what I said earlier:

If distributing an OS on USB sticks is a viable mechanism, Apple will surely be the first to do it, since Steve Jobs loves to dump legacy things. So, let’s just wait six months, and see if Apple has stopped shipping their OS on DVD and moved to USB flash sticks. If they have, then you were right about its viability. If they don’t, then the rest of us were right. And if either of us still cares about this at that point, then we can resurrect the thread or something. Agreed?

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Turning the subject onto something (hopefully) worthwhile:

What's with your sig, imitchell?

I'm starting to plan a trip to Germany next summer. Not sure if it'll happen, but I need to get off North America at some point in my life, and this is a good time for it to happen I think

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Ah, so *this* is the actual point you've been making?

It got completely lost among pages and pages and pages of essays.

Bottom line is, USB sticks are at least an order of magnitude more expensive, and not a viable option AT THE MOMENT.

Case closed.

Wrong. As we have discussed, it is a viable means to distribute an OS. And this thread specifically relates to MacBook Air owners. When you buy the Air, there is a good chance you have to install Snow Leopard yourself. If you do not have access to another computer, you will have to spend $100 and buy the superdrive. Providing a USB stick in these cases, where things like even many netbooks and MacBook Airs are devoid of optical drives, USB sticks are practical, and make sense.

As for the cost difference, you need to read this thread, cost is discussed and the difference in price is not significant enough to make USB sticks invalid.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

This is true for music, and to a certain degree, for video.

I recall this thread originally having been about methods of delivering system software.

The internet has NOT supplanted optical media as the preferred means of distribution in that case, yet.

Forget supplanting. That got inserted in here somewhere and mis-interpreted. Optical media, as I have stated... the need for it, has been GREATLY REDUCED as a result of the Internet. And, actually, in some cases, it is being taken over by digital downloads and flash memory. Period.

Examples:

1. MP3 players with flash memory, like the iPod, with iTunes and Amazon music stores, etc. Let's look at the data from the US. For 2008, there was a significant drop in the number of Music CDs purchased in 2008: 17 million (19% drop). At the same time, there was a 29% rise in the number of digital music downloads. Further information can be found on Yahoo Finance from the NPD Group.

2. Software. For all major titles, including the tens of thousands of other less well-known programs, they are all available instantly via download. In addition, all updates to these programs are distributed over the internet. And you, me, and pretty much everyone else downloads applications and updates. And in many cases a person will have to spend more money to buy the disc version, if they even have one available. Which more and more of them do not.

Let's take me as an example of this trend. I have, for instance, over 100 applications on my computer, but you won't find any discs in my desk other than the system software that came with my Macs.

Then there's digital video replacing DVDs... Remember Blueray? On one poll, only 7% of US consumers said they had planned to purchase a Blueray player in the next year. The friction here is with digital downloading. And Apple has not put Blueray into their units yet. They might, but so far they don't seem as interested in the hype. According to Steve Jobs, "Blueray is a bag of hurt." And many pundits are dismissing Blueray because of the digital download "revolution", even though Blueray has slightly better audio/video quality than Apple's HD videos on demand and for purchase.

Downloading video... you can purchase and download high definition video instantly, and in some cases the cost is cheaper. Without the ability to stream and download purchased movies, we would all be stuck back in the VHS days, tied to video rental stores, recording TV shows with blank VHS tapes, and so forth. Because for the average consumer, there was no other way to obtain and play videos other than going to the movie theatre. Period. Now there is another way. And its opticalless.

Here is a good read on the subject of why Blueray is having trouble gaining speed like DVD did compared to VHS.

A quote from the article:

At an HDTV confab last fall, Warner Bros.' vice president of high-definition media development likened HD packaged media to a set of training wheels for digital downloads.

Digital downloads will be Blu-ray's downfall | News Blog - CNET News

[freudling]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

And since my patience has pretty much run out and I really don’t have the time to read any more essay-length posts, I’m going to reiterate what I said earlier:

If distributing an OS on USB sticks is a viable mechanism, Apple will surely be the first to do it, since Steve Jobs loves to dump legacy things. So, let’s just wait six months, and see if Apple has stopped shipping their OS on DVD and moved to USB flash sticks. If they have, then you were right about its viability. If they don’t, then the rest of us were right. And if either of us still cares about this at that point, then we can resurrect the thread or something. Agreed?

It's funny though that we have to wait 6 months. Will we get another OS X full upgrade in 6 months? Do you know something we don't?

At any rate, this is absurd, and a total distraction from the issue. In no way does Apple not shipping OS X on USB in 6 months make USB not a viable solution as system software media. Here's the absurdity of this. If Apple does not release OS X as a digital download in 6 months, then digital downloads are not a viable solution for software downloads.

If Apple does not release an eReader in 6 months, then eReaders are not viable. If Apple does not release a flexible screen computer in 6 months, then flexible computer screens are not viable. If Apple does not release a cure for cancer is 6 months, then a cure for cancer is not viable. Blah, blah.

Whether Apple or someone else does it, it makes no difference. It's viable, that's the point, and anyone who does not understand that is incredulous. Optical media is going out, and the Air is a great computer. Apple should offer OS X on USB for products like the Air. Period.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by freudling 

It's funny though that we have to wait 6 months. Will we get another OS X full upgrade in 6 months? Do you know something we don’t?

There’ll almost certainly be a bunch of new Mac models by that time, and they’ll need customized OS X discs to be bundled with them.

We could make the cutoff date whenever 10.7 is released, if you’d prefer that. But I’m sick to death of this discussion right now, as each post is 3 pages long and it hasn’t been going anywhere for a long time.

[freudling]

Again, you just distract away from the whole point of the issue and the thread. For the absurd 6 months, it's meaningless.

This is the point.

When a company like Apple offers a product without an optical drive, and they include the OS on optical media but do not pre-install it, they ought to provide that software on a medium through which the user can install it without having to spend $100 if they don't have access to another computer. The discussion then went into the viability of using USB sticks as a medium to distribute OS X for these users, and how it is a solid, practical, cost effective choice for both Apple and the end user.

Providing OS X on something alternative to DVDs is nothing new to Apple. They started doing this with I believe Panther. For an extra $10, the user could order CDs instead of DVDs. Many DVDless iBook users took advantage of that.

CharlesS, wrongly pointed out that SD cards would be the way to distribute OS X. The reason that is a poor choice of media is because most of Apple's computers do not have an SD card slot, but they all have USB ports.

Further, the discussion digressed into the fall of optical media and how there are other means to distribute software, like over the Internet through software downloads and flash memory. The fact that Apple released a portable computer without an optical drive is a testament to their view that an optical drive is not a necessity for everyone and for every computer.

USB sticks, outside of software downloads, is the most practical solution. Period.

[AKcrab]

Originally Posted by freudling 

The discussion then went into the viability of using USB sticks as a medium to distribute OS X for these users, and how it is a solid, practical, cost effective choice for both Apple and the end user.

I'm going to assert that you and /CharlesS have very different definitions of "cost effective".

[CharlesS]

Again, that computer without an optical drive is intended to be used as an adjunct to a computer that does have an optical drive. So it’s not an issue.

If Apple releases a tablet or netbook with no optical drive, and it’s intended to be used as one’s primary computer, then it’s a different story (and my money’s on an SD card).

[freudling]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Again, that computer without an optical drive is intended to be used as an adjunct to a computer that does have an optical drive. So it’s not an issue.

If Apple releases a tablet or netbook with no optical drive, and it’s intended to be used as one’s primary computer, then it’s a different story (and my money’s on an SD card).

Yes, it is an issue. It is a standalone computer, and nobody is telling you you can't buy the computer if you don't have another computer at home. The MacBook Air is powerful enough to be a person's sole machine, and some students are using it as such. It's a good machine to use in addition to others, yes. The issue is that Apple doesn't tell you in explicit terms that you will have to install Snow Leopard yourself when you buy the machine. That means having to spend time and, in some cases, money, to get it installed.

But that does not take away from the fact that USB media for the OS install is a better, more practical choice for some users, just like DVDless drive iBook owners who could get CDs from Apple. Period.

And others, here in this thread, for instance, who actually OWN MacBook Airs, that means they aren't armchair critics, agree. It's an issue for them, it's an issue for me. But it's not an issue for you because as far as we know the MacBook Air is not something you have ever owned, or currently plan to.

And enjoy your money on SD cards. Since USB 3.0 is lurking around the corner, you might lose it. But nevermind, because you just agreed with me: your money is on flash media, not optical.