[vmarks]

The fact is that America is a special country, my dear. A country to envy, to be jealous of, having nothing to do with it�s riches, etc. It is special, because it was born out of a soul-need, the need to have a mother land, and from the most sublime idea that man has ever conceived: The idea of liberty, in fact liberty wed to equality. It is so special also because at the time, the idea of liberty was not fashionable. Neither was equality. The only ones who spoke of these concepts where the philosophers known as �illuminists�. The only place you found these concepts where in enormous and extremely costly serial volumes called l�Encyclopedie. Besides writers or other intellectuals, princes and lords that had the money to buy them, who else had ever heard of illuminism? It was not something to eat, not even the French revolutionaries spoke of it. Seeing as the French Revolution began in 1789 or rather thirteen years after the American Revolution, which began in 1776. (Another item that the anti-Americans of the �Good-the-Americans-deserve-it� ilk, ignore or feign to forget. The hypocrites!).

It is a special Country, A Country to envy furthermore, because that idea was understood by the farmers often illiterate and certainly uneducated. The farmers of the American Colonies. It was realized by a small group of extraordinary leaders: By men of great culture, of great quality. The Founding Fathers. Do you have an idea who the Founding Fathers were, the Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine and John Adams and George Washington ect.? Well above and beyond the petty little lawyers (as Vittorio Alfieri justly called them) of the French Revolution! They were totally different from the morose and hysterical henchmen of terror, the Marat and Danton and Saint Just and Robespierre! The Founding Fathers had a knowledge of Greek and Latin like the Italian professors of Greek and Latin (admitting that there are any left) will never possess. They were men who had read Aristotle and Plato in Greek and Seneca and Cicero in Latin. They had studied the principles of Greek democracy in depth, not even the fanatics of my time studied the Marxist theory in such depth (admitting that they actually studied it at all). Jefferson was fluent in Italian (he called it �Tuscan�). He spoke and read Italian fluently. In fact along with the two thousand vines and the thousand olive plants and music sheets, that were in short supply in Virginia, in 1774 the Florentine Filippo Mazzei had also brought various copies of a book written by a certain Cesare Beccaria called �Of crime and punishment�. As to the self taught Franklin, he was a genius. A scientist, publisher, editor, writer, journalist, politician and inventor. In 1752 he had discovered the electric nature of lightning and invented the lighting rod. It was with these extraordinary leaders, these men of great quality, that in 1776 the farmers illiterate and uneducated rebelled against England. They had the war of Independence. The American Revolution.

Well, notwithstanding rifles and gun powder and the cost of lives that every war exacts, they did not do it with the rivers of blood of the future French Revolution. They did not do it with the Guillotine and with the massacres of Vandea. They did it with a sheet of paper which together with the need of the soul, the need to have a Mother Land, made concrete the sublime idea of liberty, in fact liberty wed to equality. The Declaration of Independence �We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal��It is that sheet, that from the French Revolution on we have all copied for better or worse, or from which we were inspired, and it still constitutes the back bone of America. The life blood of this nation. Do you know why? Because it transforms the subjected into citizens. Because it transforms the masses into a population. Because it invites them, no it orders them, to govern themselves, to express their own individuality, to find their own happiness. The complete opposite of what Communism used to do, forbidding people to rebel, to govern themselves, to express themselves, to enrich themselves, and placing His Majesty the State at the place of the usual King. �Communism is a monarchy, an old fashioned monarchy. As such it castrates men. When a man is castrated he is no longer a man� my father used to say. He also used to say that instead of ransoming the masses, communism transformed everyone into one of the masses. It rendered everyone a peasant.

Well, in my opinion, America ransoms the plebeians. They are all plebeians in America. White, black, yellow, brown, purple, stupid, intelligent, poor and rich. In fact the rich are the most plebeian. In the majority of cases they are unrefined, badly mannered, rednecks. You can immediately ascertain that they have never read Monsignor della Casa, that they have never had anything to do with sophistication, good taste and refined ways. In spite of the money that they waste in dressing, for example, they are so inelegant that by comparison the Queen of England looks chic. However, they are ransomed, by God. In this world there is nothing stronger, more powerful and the ransomed masses. You always break your horns butting heads with the ransomed masses. With America everyone has gotten their horns broken, England, Germany, Mexico, Russia, Nazi, Fascist, Communist. Lastly even the Vietnamese, who after the victory had to come to terms with them so that when an ex president of the United States goes to visit them, they touch the heavens with a finger. �Welcome, Mr. President, welcome�.

---- Oriana Falacci, The Rage and the Pride.


Discuss�

[Zimphire]

You got huge ones posting that in here.

And I agree. I am glad I was born here.

[Ratm]

Originally posted by vmarks:
The fact is that America is a special country, my dear. A country to envy, to be jealous of, having nothing to do with it�s riches, etc. It is special, because it was born out of a soul-need, the need to have a mother land, and from the most sublime idea that man has ever conceived: The idea of liberty, in fact liberty wed to equality. It is so special also because at the time, the idea of liberty was not fashionable. Neither was equality. The only ones who spoke of these concepts where the philosophers known as �illuminists�. The only place you found these concepts where in enormous and extremely costly serial volumes called . Besides writers or other intellectuals, princes and lords that had the money to buy them, who else had ever heard of illuminism? It was not something to eat, not even the French revolutionaries spoke of it. Seeing as the French Revolution began in 1789 or rather thirteen years after the American Revolution, which began in 1776. (Another item that the anti-Americans of the �Good-the-Americans-deserve-it� ilk, ignore or feign to forget. The hypocrites!).

It is a special Country, A Country to envy furthermore, because that idea was understood by the farmers often illiterate and certainly uneducated. The farmers of the American Colonies. It was realized by a small group of extraordinary leaders: By men of great culture, of great quality. The Founding Fathers. Do you have an idea who the Founding Fathers were, the Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine and John Adams and George Washington ect.? Well above and beyond the petty little lawyers (as Vittorio Alfieri justly called them) of the French Revolution! They were totally different from the morose and hysterical henchmen of terror, the Marat and Danton and Saint Just and Robespierre! The Founding Fathers had a knowledge of Greek and Latin like the Italian professors of Greek and Latin (admitting that there are any left) will never possess. They were men who had read Aristotle and Plato in Greek and Seneca and Cicero in Latin. They had studied the principles of Greek democracy in depth, not even the fanatics of my time studied the Marxist theory in such depth (admitting that they actually studied it at all). Jefferson was fluent in Italian (he called it �Tuscan�). He spoke and read Italian fluently. In fact along with the two thousand vines and the thousand olive plants and music sheets, that were in short supply in Virginia, in 1774 the Florentine Filippo Mazzei had also brought various copies of a book written by a certain Cesare Beccaria called �Of crime and punishment�. As to the self taught Franklin, he was a genius. A scientist, publisher, editor, writer, journalist, politician and inventor. In 1752 he had discovered the electric nature of lightning and invented the lighting rod. It was with these extraordinary leaders, these men of great quality, that in 1776 the farmers illiterate and uneducated rebelled against England. They had the war of Independence. The American Revolution.

Well, notwithstanding rifles and gun powder and the cost of lives that every war exacts, they did not do it with the rivers of blood of the future French Revolution. They did not do it with the Guillotine and with the massacres of Vandea. They did it with a sheet of paper which together with the need of the soul, the need to have a Mother Land, made concrete the sublime idea of liberty, in fact liberty wed to equality. The Declaration of Independence �We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal��It is that sheet, that from the French Revolution on we have all copied for better or worse, or from which we were inspired, and it still constitutes the back bone of America. The life blood of this nation. Do you know why? Because it transforms the subjected into citizens. Because it transforms the masses into a population. Because it invites them, no it orders them, to govern themselves, to express their own individuality, to find their own happiness. The complete opposite of what Communism used to do, forbidding people to rebel, to govern themselves, to express themselves, to enrich themselves, and placing His Majesty the State at the place of the usual King. �Communism is a monarchy, an old fashioned monarchy. As such it castrates men. When a man is castrated he is no longer a man� my father used to say. He also used to say that instead of ransoming the masses, communism transformed everyone into one of the masses. It rendered everyone a peasant.

Well, in my opinion, America ransoms the plebeians. They are all plebeians in America. White, black, yellow, brown, purple, stupid, intelligent, poor and rich. In fact the rich are the most plebeian. In the majority of cases they are unrefined, badly mannered, rednecks. You can immediately ascertain that they have never read Monsignor della Casa, that they have never had anything to do with sophistication, good taste and refined ways. In spite of the money that they waste in dressing, for example, they are so inelegant that by comparison the Queen of England looks chic. However, they are ransomed, by God. In this world there is nothing stronger, more powerful and the ransomed masses. You always break your horns butting heads with the ransomed masses. With America everyone has gotten their horns broken, England, Germany, Mexico, Russia, Nazi, Fascist, Communist. Lastly even the Vietnamese, who after the victory had to come to terms with them so that when an ex president of the United States goes to visit them, they touch the heavens with a finger. �Welcome, Mr. President, welcome�.

---- Oriana Falacci, The Rage and the Pride.


Discuss�

<macaddict forums>I'm not reading that long bullsh*t </macaddict forums>instead why don't you make me a


America is a great country *because-because-because*

You act as if you were responsible for all this, that and the other....I'm mean you're just so proud --its a little much if you ask me.

I agree with you, I just wish more countries would adopt some of the more positive qualities of this country, especially in places like the middle east.

[ghost_flash]

Originally posted by Ratm:
<macaddict forums>I'm not reading that long bullsh*t </macaddict forums>instead why don't you make me a


America is a great country *because-because-because*

You act as if you were responsible for all this, that and the other....I'm mean you're just so proud --its a little much if you ask me.

I agree with you, I just wish more countries would adopt some of the more positive qualities of this country, especially in places like the middle east.

WTF? I think that was a back-handed compliment in reverse.

READ THE FCUKING POST. It was awesome.

[Lerkfish]

America is a great country. I love both it and what it stands for.

I just disagree that Bush is acting in its best interests in the long run. In fact, most of what He does goes against my opinion of what makes this country great. I believe he, his handlers, and his apologists have completely lost site of what this country was based on.

Any country can be a warmonger. That is not special. Any country can rescind rights of the populace. That is not special. Any country can be arrogant. That is not special. Any country can say "Im the king of the hill, come and try to knock me off". That is not special.
Any country can make up an enemies list, that does not make america special.

what made this country great was a belief in Liberty, and justice for all. In my opinion, lying and preemptively invading countries because we want to rape their oil and plant bases there does not mesh with the american creedo.

[OldManMac]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
America is a great country. I love both it and what it stands for.

I just disagree that Bush is acting in its best interests in the long run. In fact, most of what He does goes against my opinion of what makes this country great. I believe he, his handlers, and his apologists have completely lost site of what this country was based on.

Any country can be a warmonger. That is not special. Any country can rescind rights of the populace. That is not special. Any country can be arrogant. That is not special. Any country can say "Im the king of the hill, come and try to knock me off". That is not special.
Any country can make up an enemies list, that does not make america special.

what made this country great was a belief in Liberty, and justice for all. In my opinion, lying and preemptively invading countries because we want to rape their oil and plant bases there does not mesh with the american creedo.

[Sven G]

Oriana Fallaci? Hmm... hmm... One of those "ex-everything", probably - or maybe she's always been rather like that...?

America (the USA) might have some (even many) good things, but certainly not because she says so. And many quite bad things, also, which she doesn't mention, "of course"!

And this line is, as always, a complete misunderstanding of communism:

[...] The complete opposite of what Communism used to do, forbidding people to rebel, to govern themselves, to express themselves, to enrich themselves, and placing His Majesty the State at the place of the usual King. [...]

... As if the state didn't exist in our so-called democracies! And as if the so-called "Communism" hadn't been corrupted by the post-revolutionary power-appropriation process, like all other revolutions! And so on...

Evidently, she talks about the so-called "real socialism" in the ex USSR, etc.: but the fact that she liquidates communism and socialism in a so superficial manner (how did "Communism" get established? through a revolution, even with generous ideals and hopes by the people, of course!) obviously means that she's not a social libertarian, but rather an individualist one. Nothing wrong with that - but she certainly seems to have some fascistoid tendencies, and has been a quite controversial character recently in Italy (see her war against "radical Islam" (sic!), which is her version of Bush's preemption, and so on).

Anyway, what I find very strange is that some Americans (and not: see Fallaci and others) continuously feel the urge to state the same things, over and over again, about supposedly being more "democratic", and so on: of course, that could mean that the reality isn't so rosey and crystalline, maybe. In other words, some form of "forced optimism".

It's much more rare that an average European keeps saying that Europe is so much better than this and that...!

[angaq0k]

(...)what made this country great was a belief in Liberty, and justice for all. In my opinion, lying and preemptively invading countries because we want to rape their oil and plant bases there does not mesh with the american creedo. [/B]

I could not agree more.

Yet, those beliefs are shared not only in America, but in many other countries as well. But belief is only wishful thinking at times, wherever we are on this planet.

[voyageur]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
Any country can be a warmonger. That is not special. Any country can rescind rights of the populace. That is not special. Any country can be arrogant. That is not special. Any country can say "Im the king of the hill, come and try to knock me off". That is not special.
Any country can make up an enemies list, that does not make america special.

what made this country great was a belief in Liberty, and justice for all. In my opinion, lying and preemptively invading countries because we want to rape their oil and plant bases there does not mesh with the american creedo.

Beautifully said. I would dearly love to see the US live the credo in the international arena as well as the domestic.

[Ayelbourne]

vmarks, I hope you're not going to be too disappointed when I tell you that envy and jealousy are not emotions that I cultivate, nor does anyone I care to associate with. I like to consider myself and my family and friends slightly more mature in our emotional development than that.

Or were you merely ordering me to envy you?

[vmarks]

None of the above.

I simply posted what I felt was an inspiring bit of writing by an Italian author who lives in New York.

I followed that posting by asking for discussion of her words.

Instead, you've assigned her words to me (I'm honored) and drawn some interesting but false conclusions about what they say to you (that you should be envious, when you don't care to be, and that you read it as an imperative.)

I think you may want to re-read it.

[ghost_flash]

Originally posted by vmarks:
None of the above.

I simply posted what I felt was an inspiring bit of writing by an Italian author who lives in New York.

I followed that posting by asking for discussion of her words.

Instead, you've assigned her words to me (I'm honored) and drawn some interesting but false conclusions about what they say to you (that you should be envious, when you don't care to be, and that you read it as an imperative.)

I think you may want to re-read it.

Great post anyway vmarks.

[ThinkInsane]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
And I agree. I am glad I was born here.

I wasn't born here, but I am glad to be here now. Of course I will get flamed for that, but so be it...

[Orion27]

"With America everyone has gotten their horns broken, England, Germany, Mexico, Russia, Nazi, Fascist, Communist. Lastly even the Vietnamese, who after the victory had to come to terms with them so that when an ex president of the United States goes to visit them, they touch the heavens with a finger. �Welcome, Mr. President, welcome�."

I call some member here hyppocrites: If we have such an illustrious history of magnaminity after the fact, why all the gnashing of teeth over Iraq? Our history shows our hearts and minds are bent toward liberation. Why are some members here intent on our failure rather than supporting our fight that would be, if history would to repeat, auger a favorable outcome? In fact, betting odds would be for a favorable outcome for the Iraqi's.

[Ratm]

Originally posted by ghost_flash:


READ THE FCUKING POST. It was awesome.

NO!

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by vmarks:
The fact is that America is a special country, my dear. A country to envy, to be jealous of ...

Funny. Isn't it also your arguement that terrorists are targeting the USA (America includes Canada, Cuba, South and Central America) because they envy and are jealous of the USA? If that is why the USA is being targeted for terrorism, then why would you want to convince more people that they should be envious and jealous of the USA?

[Spliffdaddy]

We can't be responsible for *your* envy.

That's silly.


America - protecting the world's self-esteem for over 200 years

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
I wasn't born here, but I am glad to be here now. Of course I will get flamed for that, but so be it...

Not by me.

[Ayelbourne]

Originally posted by vmarks:
None of the above.

I simply posted what I felt was an inspiring bit of writing by an Italian author who lives in New York.

I followed that posting by asking for discussion of her words.

Instead, you've assigned her words to me (I'm honored) and drawn some interesting but false conclusions about what they say to you (that you should be envious, when you don't care to be, and that you read it as an imperative.)

I think you may want to re-read it.

With all due respect, I read it twice before posting, and continue to find it to be an overbaked and cloying slice of jingoism, with a side order of tiresome French-bashing thrown in for good measure. It's not to my taste at all, regardless of my respect for the principles of democracy, the Founding Fathers, the Declaration of Independence, et alibi.

I never assigned her words to you, vmarks, but the article begins with a call for envy and jealousy, and you posted this with the title "America, to be envied". If I've misread your intent in doing so, I apologise, but perhaps I can be excused for doing so under the circumstances.

[Face Ache]

Envy America? Why would I do that? I live in Australia.

In fact there's a lot of Yanks moving in around here...

[roger_ramjet]

Originally posted by Ayelbourne:
With all due respect, I read it twice before posting, and continue to find it to be an overbaked and cloying slice of jingoism....

Except Oriana Fallacci isn't American. She's Italian. This has nothing to do with jingoism.

... with a side order of tiresome French-bashing thrown in for good measure.

No more tiresome than the effort to have her book banned in France. Under a 1972 law the Movement Against Racism and for Friendship Between People (MRAP) sought to have her book banned. She went to court and prevailed because of a "procedural error in the summons" for Fallaci. That's how Reuters put it; the article didn't elaborate. Fallaci, 72, routinely receives death threats.

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by vmarks:
The fact is that America is a special country, my dear. A country to envy, to be jealous of, having nothing to do with it�s riches, etc. It is special, because it was born out of a soul-need, the need to have a mother land, and from the most sublime idea that man has ever conceived: The idea of liberty, in fact liberty wed to equality. It is so special also because at the time, the idea of liberty was not fashionable. Neither was equality.
---- Oriana Falacci, The Rage and the Pride.
Discuss�

(...) you've assigned her words to me (I'm honored) and drawn some interesting but false conclusions about what they say to you (that you should be envious, when you don't care to be, and that you read it as an imperative.)

How about First Nations?

[Orion27]

angaq0k:

First Nations: What's your point? The species evolves, sensitivites evolve. Given all we try to preserve now, whether it is culture or ecological niches we are most powerless to do so.
All we can hope to do is adapt to the changes that will occur. In our lifetimes we can have the illusion of managing change, but over longer time spans it becomes evident incrementalism rules.

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by Orion27:
angaq0k:

First Nations: What's your point? The species evolves, sensitivites evolve. Given all we try to preserve now, whether it is culture or ecological niches we are most powerless to do so.
All we can hope to do is adapt to the changes that will occur. In our lifetimes we can have the illusion of managing change, but over longer time spans it becomes evident incrementalism rules.

My point is that you obviously do not "get it".

Fallacci's thesis is that America is a better place than France which she despizes for its barbarism (Robespierre was no angel and the revolutions brought a couple of people who experienced "headlessness" head first if I may say). She does not say it in plain, but it is exactly what she is pointing at.

Fallacci brings down France on account of its History, comparing America's History as something "special, because it was born out of a soul-need, the need to have a mother land, and from the most sublime idea that man has ever conceived: The idea of liberty, in fact liberty wed to equality."

As you say, the species evolves, and sensitivities as well. But in the end, what makes a country, is how its population makes its bed. And sometimes, the freedom of some is the doom of others...

Fallacci's point is that America is far better than France because of its forefathers and its ideals. Fallacci's idealism is blinded by her disappointment of France, and when people are not happy about something, they look at anyone who appears better. So Fallacci turned towards America. But America's ideals are just that: ideals. Like in France, in Canada, or any other country.

Well these ideals left a trail of blood that is still wet, and it is no different in America than in France, or Germany, or Israel, or Palestine, or Africa, or Canada, or any other country...

[Orion27]

angaq0k:

Listen, I'm not looking for an argument. You asked a rhetorical question and I gave a philosophical answer. You're right, Ideals are just that, ideals. Should we suspend our idealism because we are fallible and imperfect? No, we try to build on our failures to realize our ideals. Except in some societies which remain intolerant, the practice of bloodletting to procure the spoils of dominance is history for the most part. I think that's progress.

[roger_ramjet]

Originally posted by angaq0k:
... Fallacci's point is that America is far better than France because of its forefathers and its ideals. Fallacci's idealism is blinded by her disappointment of France, and when people are not happy about something, they look at anyone who appears better. So Fallacci turned towards America...

Fallaci's attitude towards America was shaped long before the French had an opportunity to disappoint her. As a little girl she knew first hand what it was like to have bombs dropping out of the sky, killing her countrymen. The bombs were American bombs - bombs that eventually liberated her and her country from the fascists. It isn't simply her idealism speaking. It's also her experience.

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by Orion27:
angaq0k:

Listen, I'm not looking for an argument. You asked a rhetorical question and I gave a philosophical answer. You're right, Ideals are just that, ideals. Should we suspend our idealism because we are fallible and imperfect? No, we try to build on our failures to realize our ideals. Except in some societies which remain intolerant, the practice of bloodletting to procure the spoils of dominance is history for the most part. I think that's progress.

True. It is progress. Although I am definitely not sure where we are progressing when I look at the news...

vmarks put a text in this thread that refers to idealism as perceived by someone who saw only the bright side of a nation and promoted that bright side only, while puting down another for its failings and its failings only.

But he also put a prescription: "America to be envied". If it had been a question, there would have been a question mark. But he used "to", which refers to an action, such action being "envy". And it is envy as refered to that text which is a double-standard assessment of a situation.

Fallacci is certainly entitled to her own opinions, and so is vmarks, whatever these are in this thread. But we were all invited to discuss it.

My part of the discussion is this: people are quick to rest on their ideals, and self-promotion of our ideals always fall short after a good look at ourselves and a little digging in our closets. Looking at our ideals is good, as a goal, but being blinded by them is sometimes murder. Self-glorification is good for the self-satisfied and the short-sighted.

Fallacci's text is murder disguised in her escape through her own prejudice.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Face Ache:
Envy America? Why would I do that? I live in Australia.

In fact there's a lot of Yanks moving in around here...

and we thank you profusely for taking those particular people off our hands...

[roger_ramjet]

Originally posted by angaq0k:
... Fallacci's text is murder disguised in her escape through her own prejudice.

Shoot from the hip much?

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
Shoot from the hip much?

Cool your jets space cadet:

From this site:http://www.giselle.com/oriana.html

She told Bonfante: "A journalist lives history in the best of ways, that is in the moment that history takes place. He lives history, he touches history with his hands, looks at it with his eyes, he listens to it with his ears." To Jonathan Cott in a Rolling Stone interview, she explained: "I am the judge. I am the one who decides. Listen: if I am a painter and I do your portrait, have I or haven't I the right to paint you as I want?"

Fallaci denies her reputation as a brutal interrogator, insisting instead that she merely frames the questions other reporters lack the courage to ask. Where others seek objectivity, Fallaci prefers an approach that she calls "correct" and "honest." Each interview, "is a portrait of myself," she told Time contributor Jordan Bonfante. "They are a strange mixture of my ideas, my temperament, my patience, all of these driving the questions."

[kvm_mkdb]

Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
Except Oriana Fallacci isn't American. She's Italian. This has nothing to do with jingoism.No more tiresome than the effort to have her book banned in France. Under a 1972 law the Movement Against Racism and for Friendship Between People (MRAP) sought to have her book banned. She went to court and prevailed because of a "procedural error in the summons" for Fallaci. That's how Reuters put it; the article didn't elaborate. Fallaci, 72, routinely receives death threats.

She's Italian, but lived most of her adult life in Israel and the US.
In the last years, she has incessantly made xenophobic remarks and called for genocide against Muslims and Arabs.

[lil'babykitten]

"Miss Fallaci contends in the angry polemic that the only difference between "moderate Islam" and "radical Islam" is the length of their beards."



Sounds like an ignorant b1tch to me.

[roger_ramjet]

Originally posted by angaq0k:
Cool your jets space cadet:

Lose the name-calling.

From this site:http://www.giselle.com/oriana.html

So? This doesn't justify your charge. All it is is a complaint about her journalism.

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
Lose the name-calling.

Fair enough. I sincerily apologize.

So? This doesn't justify your charge. All it is is a complaint about her journalism.

And her objectivity.

If you cannot see that, let me explain.

Look. I am not condemning Orianna Fallaci as a person. I don't know her. I am even less interested in her now, although she does seem like a complex character.

I am refering to the text vmarks posted. Whatever context there is around this text, its what it carries in this forum with the title of the thread.

If you like her, so be it. Fine by me. But remove the name of the author of the text, put the ideas in 2 columns, the left one being positive, the right one being negative, and you will find the left being only about America, and the right about France.

That is an objective assessment of her text, here quoted by vmarks. She refers to the butchery "� la fran�aise", which it was, and compares similar periods in America. But she makes no reference to the butchery that happened on those American grounds in the name of the same principles.

If you insist, I will give you a hint: Google: "Genocide" "Native" "American". Fallaci obviously disregarded that, like we often do (I had to make an effort to remember, shame on me!)

That American bombs fell on her head to free her I am glad, thank you very much, but I could not care less here because it is not relevant to this thread. You want to start your thread about her, why don't you? As I said she seems like a complex character and leaves nobody indifferent.

And by the way, my quotes reflect exactly what she said of herself.

Otherwise, please explain what is wrong with my charge and what is it you understand (or not) of what I am writing here.

[roger_ramjet]

Originally posted by angaq0k:
Fair enough. I sincerily apologize.

Apology accepted.

... And her objectivity.

Except I didn't say anything about that. This is the part of your post that I challenged: "... Fallacci's text is murder disguised in her escape through her own prejudice."

... That American bombs fell on her head to free her I am glad, thank you very much, but I could not care less here because it is not relevant to this thread...

It was relevant to your comments about her attitudes towards France and the US.

[Logic]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
"Miss Fallaci contends in the angry polemic that the only difference between "moderate Islam" and "radical Islam" is the length of their beards."



Sounds like an ignorant b1tch to me.

Knew that already after reading the article.

But it doesn't surprise me that some would agree with her on several topics. We've seen that in the last few weeks here on macnn.

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
Apology accepted.Except I didn't say anything about that. This is the part of your post that I challenged: "... Fallacci's text is murder disguised in her escape through her own prejudice."It was relevant to your comments about her attitudes towards France and the US.

Ah! Now I get it. And I am glad you accepted my apology. Actually, when you refered to my "shooting from the hip" I thought you meant it as a joke, so I thought I could put some of my own. Anyway. I have to admit I misunderstood the expression "shoot from the hip". I interpreted that as "shooting myself in the leg". Now I understand you meant something like: "quick to judge" or "easy shooter". English is my second language so I do not get all popular expressions.

Now I feel things are clearer, but I feel worse for the name calling...

My charge is this:

If you can look at the murders of one Nation and not the other, that form of prejudice shows double-standards in the assessment of what is right and what is wrong.

In the case of Fallaci, she easily point the finger at the French, but glorifies America although similar things happened there.

The conclusion that one draws is that it is not OK to murder in France, but it is OK in America.

Of course, I do not presume she was aware then of the situation of First Nations in America. Actually, All Europe idealized America for a long time (and for good reasons, I would never deny that) but her charge towards France is accurate for what she exposed but her comparison is biased big time.

[Orion27]

Imagine for one moment the absence of the Untited States from the strategic theater. It adopts a truly conservative isolationist policy of non-interfereance in the internal affairs of Europe and the Middle East. Instead we will pay our annual dues to the United Nations based on the fraction of member states. How long would it take Europe to decend into total war, disregarding trying to defend itself against an Islamic insurgency and Russian expansionism? Until we decided we were going to stay awhile, I'll just mention the two major world wars in this century. There is no way it would not happen again and the Europeans know it. My feeling is we should do just that. All this self serving European Old world BS. Imagine the American bashing then. My god how could the Americans just stand by and let this happen. Alas, it is in our own national interest to keep Europe from disintegrating once again. It's frustrating listening to all the crybabies.

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by Orion27:
Imagine for one moment the absence of the Untited States from the strategic theater. It adopts a truly conservative isolationist policy of non-interfereance in the internal affairs of Europe and the Middle East. Instead we will pay our annual dues to the United Nations based on the fraction of member states. How long would it take Europe to decend into total war, disregarding trying to defend itself against an Islamic insurgency and Russian expansionism? Until we decided we were going to stay awhile, I'll just mention the two major world wars in this century. There is no way it would not happen again and the Europeans know it. My feeling is we should do just that. All this self serving European Old world BS. Imagine the American bashing then. My god how could the Americans just stand by and let this happen. Alas, it is in our own national interest to keep Europe from disintegrating once again. It's frustrating listening to all the crybabies.

You must be right...

[Orion27]

angaq0k:

Then deny it! Who will step in and stop the slaughter in the Balkans? The Canadians?

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by Orion27:
angaq0k:

Then deny it! Who will step in and stop the slaughter in the Balkans? The Canadians?

Tell me.

What do you understand of the text at the top of this thread?

[Orion27]

Just reiterating that we'er special, the point of the article. It's a shame that specialness, which comes from a culture born of the revolution which is the constitution, founded on the judeo-christian ethic is pilloried by the same people who most benefit from it.

Now just what don't you understand?

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by Orion27:
Just reiterating that we'er special, the point of the article. It's a shame that specialness, which comes from a culture born of the revolution which is the constitution, founded on the judeo-christian ethic is pilloried by the same people who most benefit from it.

Now just what don't you understand?

I understand you think you are in the best country of this planet, that you represent goodness itself and we should thank you for it.

I am sorry I broke your party.

[Orion27]

angaq0k

Very weak, nice try though. But this truth shouldn't hurt. It should give the world hope.

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by Orion27:
angaq0k

Very weak, nice try though. But this truth shouldn't hurt. It should give the world hope.

Then let's hope!

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Orion27:
angaq0k

Very weak, nice try though. But this truth shouldn't hurt. It should give the world hope.

hope for what?
the "global leadership" of the US, where allies are threatened to comply or face consequences, and enemies are put on lists and preemptively invaded on falsehoods?

Just what, pray tell, should the world hope for from us?

Don't say security, because we've proven ourselves the biggest threat to their security.
Don't say freedom, because any freedom we provide has strings attached.
Don't say stability, because we've only introduced instability.

the only "hope" I can see is the hope that they don't p!ss us off.

[fizzlemynizzle]

Man, if it sucks so bad here, maybe you can get a package deal w/ Alec Baldwin when you leave?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by fizzlemynizzle:
Man, if it sucks so bad here, maybe you can get a package deal w/ Alec Baldwin when you leave?

[Sven G]

Another line from Fallaci's article:

[...] They are all plebeians in America. [...]

... Which is not true at all, if one assigns to the word "plebeian" a little deeper meaning than she seems to do (see also the extreme inequalities that are to be found also in her "America": the fact that the rich are unelegant, etc. means nothing from the allocation of economical resources point of view, and so on) - and anyway would be yet another way of levelling the playfield "downwards", in a manner, thus, similar to the so-called "real socialism" (ex USSR & Co.).

In a society where human beings were truly free as individuals and lived in a condition of social equality (a.k.a. spontaneous solidarity), on the contrary, there would rather be an upwards levelling of the playing field: that is, everyone would be an aristocrat (in the positive, humanistic meaning) - not a plebeian!

[Nicko]

Nationalism is so 20th century. Get with the millennium. Globalization is the new game in town.

That said, Canada is clearly the best � country in the world. Look it up.

Oh and this is China�s century. Prepare to bow to your new overlords!