[Simon]

Well obviously he's joking. Every undergrad here knows Algebra is arabic.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Well obviously he's joking. Every undergrad here knows Algebra is arabic.

a) Well, he's British, so…

b) Rob doesn't.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Wait - you're really saying that rock music doesn't have its roots in the early African-American scene? Seriously? (I can't tell if you're joking)

Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying. Just like Amerika didn't invent the automobile.
Here's a song which was written 50 years before Amerika was invented. No melodies or rhythms changed:
YouTube - Gary moore - over the hills and far away

Are you really going to tell me that your B3 is based upon some African-Amerikan instrument rather than the remarkably similar instruments which have populated European churches for several hundred years?

Originally Posted by Someone who thinks that only tech talk should be allowed on the NN

Well obviously he's joking. Every undergrad here knows Algebra is arabic.

You and the rest of the undergrads here need to go get your money back then. Try Babylonian.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying. Just like Amerika didn't invent the automobile.
Here's a song which was written 50 years before Amerika was invented. No melodies or rhythms changed:
YouTube - Gary moore - over the hills and far away

I see. So the Irish came up with power chords and pop chord progressions?

Or is this maybe just another case of some bloke taking an old folk song and re-chording it to 80s taste?

'Cuz what defines that as "rock" sure ain't the melody.

And what does define "rock" sure wasn't in the music before the Blues put it there.

Heck, not even the Stones would exist if it hadn't been for Muddy Waters, and they pre-date your ancient song by at least fifty years.

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Are you really going to tell me that your B3 is based upon some African-Amerikan instrument rather than the remarkably similar instruments which have populated European churches for several hundred years?

Heh.

True, the Hammond wasn't developed for Blues, nor for Jazz. It was a Church organ (Laurens Hammond always hated Leslies because they muddied his "pure" sound).

Of course, that means that any Hammond-based jazz or blues music is fundamentally European.

Including funk, which is structurally based on ancient central-African court music. If it's Hammond-based, it's European.

Got it.

Originally Posted by Doofy 

You and the rest of the undergrads here need to go get your money back then. Try Babylonian.

The WORD is Arabic, and I was careful in my phrasing: The <MiddleEasternEthnicityofChoice> didn't invent everything (though they developed a lot), but all the ancient European wisdom would have been completely lost, had they not preserved it through the dark centuries we were busy carousing and/or living in mud huts.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

I see. So the Irish came up with power chords and pop chord progressions?

Yup.
Well, after the Spanish, of course.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Or is this maybe just another case of some bloke taking an old folk song and re-chording it to 80s taste? 'Cuz what defines that as "rock" sure ain't the melody.

Melody and rhythm. Like I said.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

And what does define "rock" sure wasn't in the music before the Blues put it there.

Yes it was. The rock ethos and styling was present in folk music and, dare I say it, classical (which is why rock lends itself so well to the neoclassical style).

This whole "African American culture is the root of rock" is bullshit. And I'll only concede if you concede that an Amerikan invented the internal combustion engine. That Ford fella. You know the one.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Heck, not even the Stones would exist if it hadn't been for Muddy Waters, and they pre-date your ancient song by at least fifty years.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Of course, that means that any music which uses 12TET is fundamentally European.

Fixed.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

The WORD is Arabic, and I was careful in my phrasing: The <MiddleEasternEthnicityofChoice> didn't invent everything (though they developed a lot), but all the ancient European wisdom would have been completely lost, had they not preserved it through the dark centuries we were busy carousing and/or living in mud huts.

I seriously doubt that.
And how were our mud huts not better than their tents?

[Spheric Harlot]

Well Blues (and blues-rock) explicitly DON'T use 12TET, do they.

Pentatonic with "blue" notes sitting squarely in between where our white ears would like them go back a couple thousand years before Irish (or whatever) folk.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Well Blues (and blues-rock) explicitly DON'T use 12TET, do they.

You're telling me that a correctly intonated guitar doesn't operate in 12TET?

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

You and the rest of the undergrads here need to go get your money back then. Try Babylonian.

I majored in mathematics at an excellent university. I got my money's worth I can assure you.

So let's try to clear this up.

Algebra is an arabic word.
Algebra itself has its roots in India and Babylonia, but was greatly expanded around 800AD by an Arab called Al-Chwarizmi.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

You're telling me that a correctly intonated guitar doesn't operate in 12TET?

I'm telling you that correctly intonated blues doesn't.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Simon 

I majored in mathematics at an excellent university. I got my money's worth I can assure you.

Thicko.

Originally Posted by Simon 

So let's try to clear this up.

Algebra is an arabic word.
Algebra itself has its roots in India and Babylonia, but was greatly expanded around 800AD by an Arab called Al-Chwarizmi.

If you like.

[Phileas]

This has turned from a shit thread into something really quite interesting. I'm learning stuff, keep it up.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

I'm telling you that correctly intonated blues doesn't.

So, you're telling me that blues can only be played on the guitar if the guitar is incorrectly intonated?

Anyway, aren't you now lending weight to my theory that rock isn't rooted in African-Amerikan culture? Rock demands correctly intonated guitars. Blues, apparently, doesn't. So, no relation.

[Sarc]

Originally Posted by downinflames68 

They're all the same. Arabs that have done nothing for humanity, then POOF, oil money, then they buy all of the best stuff in the world, and trash it.

You sir, are truly ignorant.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

So, you're telling me that blues can only be played on the guitar if the guitar is incorrectly intonated?

Anyway, aren't you now lending weight to my theory that rock isn't rooted in African-Amerikan culture? Rock demands correctly intonated guitars. Blues, apparently, doesn't. So, no relation.

Aw, come on, I know you're just messing with me.

Rock wouldn't exist without rock'n'roll and blues-rock, which directly evolved from blues, which wouldn't exist if not for the African vocal tradition it's largely based on (right down to the fact that it doesn't use all twelve tones of our system - being mostly pentatonic - and that the tonal system contains crucial notes which are specifically *not* part of our tonal system (with the third lying smack between our minor and major third)). Blues tradition existed for quite a while before anybody ever figured out a way to adapt it to the instruments that were available a good hundred years ago.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Aw, come on, I know you're just messing with me.

Nah man, I'm being straight.

"Rock is rooted in African-Amerikan culture".
"Algebra was invented by the Arabs".
"Henry Ford invented the internal combustion engine".
"Thomas Edison invented the telephone and light bulb".

It's all BS. Next they'll be telling us that Microsoft invented the GUI.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

(right down to the fact that it doesn't use all twelve tones of our system - being mostly pentatonic and that the tonal system contains crucial notes which are specifically *not* part of our tonal system (with the third lying smack between our minor and major third)

Point me at a blues tune with said odd third please? I can't remember ever hearing any blues tune which can't be played on a 12TET guitar.

[Phileas]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

"Henry Ford invented the internal combustion engine".

I hate it when people state that Ford invented the production line.

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Thicko.



If you like.

Are you trying to claim that al-ğabr is an Akkadian loan word, rather than an inherented word in Arabic? If so, I’d like to see your justifications for that, ’cause it makes very little sense.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

Are you trying to claim that al-ğabr is an Akkadian loan word, rather than an inherented word in Arabic? If so, I’d like to see your justifications for that, ’cause it makes very little sense.

I'm not talking about the word, I'm talking about the theory.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Phileas 

I hate it when people state that Ford invented the production line.

Or the first car, or even the first successful car.

[SpaceMonkey]

He did, however, invent car f*cking (probably NSFW).

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

I'm not talking about the word, I'm talking about the theory.

But I wasn't, so there wasn't much point in contradicting me.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

But I wasn't, so there wasn't much point in contradicting me.

WELL IT'S NOT MY FAULT YOU'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE SAME THING AS I AM, IS IT?
Caps thingy.

[brassplayersrock²]

So this one British guy goes into a pub and gets drunk… the end.

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

I'm not talking about the word, I'm talking about the theory.

But the post you were quoting specifically said that the word is Arabic, while the theory comes from both Indian and Babylonian bodies of theory, which were expounded and expanded by (among others) al-Khwārizmī. And the post that originally mentioned algebra mentioned it in quotes, making it clear that the word, not the theory, was being referred to.

So yes, it is actually your fault that you’re talking about different things.

[James L]

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock² 

So this one British guy goes into a pub and gets drunk… the end.

That's usually just the beginning of the story, actually.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

But the post you were quoting specifically said that the word is Arabic, while the theory comes from both Indian and Babylonian bodies of theory, which were expounded and expanded by (among others) al-Khwārizmī. And the post that originally mentioned algebra mentioned it in quotes, making it clear that the word, not the theory, was being referred to.

OK, OK. I should have cut what I was quoting down to:

Algebra itself has its roots in India and Babylonia, but was greatly expanded around 800AD by an Arab called Al-Chwarizmi.

That's what the "if you like" was in response to.

So shut yer mouth, hippie!

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Point me at a blues tune with said odd third please? I can't remember ever hearing any blues tune which can't be played on a 12TET guitar.

There's thousands of hooks and licks (in fact, most any blues/blues-rock lick at all) that involve bending the minor third or sliding between the minor/major thirds.

As for vocal recordings - pretty much the entire Alan Lomax catalogue, with the a capella ones like the "Prison Blues of the South" being particularly revealing about the lack of minor/major distinction, because the third is precisely in between.

It's not lack of performance ability, either. There's recordings from the late 19th century (IIRC, in particular one recording of a work song called "Boll Weevil", can't remember offhand by whom) where the singing adheres to very clearly delineated, clean pitches (it's really a wonderful recording), and the third is very clearly defined as not within our tempered system.

Seriously, Doofy, it's an entire musical culture, and it's definitely not based on our system of tonality - it's merely been adapted to European instrumentation, because that's what was there.


Gospel, btw., is a whole different thing. Gospel *is*, in fact, European music - there are some small pockets, such as, IIRC, the Orkney Islands, where the "old style" church singing is still practiced that went across the Atlantic 500 years ago, and the resemblance to Afro-American gospel music is uncanny. IIRC (going by memory of a uni seminar a few years ago), it wasn't an explicitly "Black" style until the white churches adopted the "new style" church singing in the late 19th century and more or less explicitly forbade the Negroes to perform it as a means of cultural segregation.

Of course, there's all sorts of exchange and flow back and forth between the two.


Incidentally, "pure intonation" hasn't really been used since the Renaissance age - most instrumentalists opt for the tempered tuning introduced about 200 years ago, which is just a compromise allowing more than the three or four intervals that could be written in for the pure tuning (and other systems with more possible intervals in between, but only in certain keys). In "pure tuning", the third is inherently dissonant.

Which, of course, brings us full circle back to POWER CHORDS.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

There's thousands of hooks and licks (in fact, most any blues/blues-rock lick at all) that involve bending the minor third or sliding between the minor/major thirds.

As for vocal recordings - pretty much the entire Alan Lomax catalogue, with the a capella ones like the "Prison Blues of the South" being particularly revealing about the lack of minor/major distinction, because the third is precisely in between.

It's not lack of performance ability, either. There's recordings from the late 19th century (IIRC, in particular one recording of a work song called "Boll Weevil", can't remember offhand by whom) where the singing adheres to very clearly delineated, clean pitches (it's really a wonderful recording), and the third is very clearly defined as not within our tempered system.

Seriously, Doofy, it's an entire musical culture, and it's definitely not based on our system of tonality - it's merely been adapted to European instrumentation, because that's what was there.

Which is why it's not related to rock, since rock's based on old European folk.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Incidentally, "pure intonation" hasn't really been used since the Renaissance age

I know. Hence it's 12TET. By "intonation" I'm merely referring to a correctly set up (for 12TET) guitar intonation.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Which, of course, brings us full circle back to POWER CHORDS.

Can't argue with power chords!

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Which is why it's not related to rock, since rock's based on old European folk.

One 80s crossover song by Gary Moore does not an entire genre make.

'Specially not one that existed for ten years before anybody even *considered* crossing European folk into it.

The musicologist in me is interested, though:

Since you deny the actual history , what does *your* chronology of rock development look like?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

One 80s crossover song by Gary Moore does not an entire genre make.

'Specially not one that existed for ten years before anybody even *considered* crossing European folk into it.

Right, because Zep III isn't full of folk songs.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

The musicologist in me is interested, though:

Since you deny the actual history , what does *your* chronology of rock development look like?

Greensleeves -> folk -> classical -> folk -> Zep -> Judas Priest -> Accept -> 1989 (end).



The Last Night Of The Proms is actually a rock gig.
And my theory is why Blind Lemon Whiner moaning about how his woman/dog done left him doesn't work with crossover elements like this does:
YouTube - Metallica - Sad But True(S&M)
It's a perfect marriage. There's a reason for that.

[Doofy]

OK. Just got busy. So I'll leave you with some Finntroll.

YouTube - FINNTROLL - Trollhammeren (OFFICIAL VIDEO)

See anyone whining about their wife kicking their dog?

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Right, because Zep III isn't full of folk songs.

I was wondering if you were going to mention Zep.

I & II were blues-rock records.

[Doofy]

Candice and her old man know where they came from...
YouTube - Blackmore's Night:Green Sleeves

And just because she's got a pretty dress on...
YouTube - Blackmore's Night - Way to Mandalay

[brassplayersrock²]

A few minutes later, a priest comes in and sees the passed out drunk English guy and says “I’ll have what he’s havin’” The end

[brassplayersrock²]

So after a few shots, a still very annoyed priest proclaims that he isn’t even buzzed and wants something stronger! The bartender asks "what he’d be havin’” “a Holy bartender” said the priest. “never heard of it,” says the bartender.

Shocked, the priests pulls out a semi auto and shoots up the bartender, and chuckles. “Now you have."