[redondo]

I posted the topic imac surved. There has been a decent turn out. Thanks. I will still
do a report soon. I am intrigued, however, on
how "pleased" we Mac people are with our computers with problems. Let me explain. There is a bunch of people here and in other forums reporting that they love their new
imacs, and then they go on describing SERIOUS
PROBLEMS that they have. There is a contradiction here. I agree that the new imacs are indeed realy nice computers, but I
insist that THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE THAT MANY
PROBLEMS.

[aniraf]

You need to understand that EVERY computer known to mankind WILL have problems. Do not be so silly about the issue at hand. We like our Macs because we know we can solve these problems. These problems don't even compare to the amount one would have with a Windows machine. Please be realistic.

[MAlan]

The problems that most people are having are software related. I know because I've experienced some crashes with my new iMac.
I've found out that there are tricks around these crashes...for example playing bugdom I was getting a system freeze when I quit because the game was automatically switching monitor resolutions from 640 x 480 back to the 1024 x 768. Why this would cause a system freeze I have no idea but...if I set my resolution to 640 x 480 manually before I play the game I avoid the crash.

I also had crashing using remote access after putting the iMac to sleep. A lot of people were having problems with the iMac sleeping...so I don't let it go to sleep anymore. Apple needs to fix that feature. So since then I've had less crashing....consuming more power is less bad for the computer than crashing is. Now I'm crash free. There is a tendency for applications and features of the new OS to conflict with other applications with the current Mac OS architecture. It is a fundamental limitation of the way the extensions work. Extensions are supposed to enhance the OS's capability to perform certain tasks for a certain application. Unfortunately, I believe apple allows those extensions as they are written today to have to much control over the OS.

The solution...Apple's solution to all of these problems is Mac OS X with its pre-emptive multitasking and protected memory features. So its not like they don't know about these problems and are just letting people suffer. But they've had to postpone giving the consumer these advanced features because the third party developers have to play catch up to make there apps carbon based and of course most of them have dithered away the last 2 years that apple has given them to make their apps carbon based so when the OS is finally released there will only be a handful of apps that will run from the carbon library.

None the less crashing and freezing of the entire OS should for the most part go away with the pre-emptive multitasking architecture. As a comparison you can look at windows 95 and 98 and compare them to NT. Now I'm not a fan of windows but the one thing that Microsoft has done right is for the most part when an application crashes in NT...which it does all the time...the OS has the ability to give you the option to force quit (End task) and this actually works about 95% of the time. I've experienced few crashes with windows NT.

So in the final analysis Mac OS X will save the day on the crashing front...but it'll be too bad that a lot of apps won't be ready for it when it comes around even though there is some kind of box...it used to be called a blue box but now its cocoa or something like that... where legacy apps will be able to run.

[redondo]

aniraf:
Indeed I am realistic, very. I have been using Windows computers at work for many years and macs at home. I still very much prefer macs, but I also see reality.
A haven't have nearly any problems with
the Computers at work. One example is the
clasic problem with extensions conflicts
in Macs. It is a HUGE problem. I have never have a conflict problem with a Windows computer. Or prove me wrong...

[redondo]

I seriously doubt that OS X will fix the problems with crashes. I have been hearing
that argument for many years. Enery new OS
version since I care to remember was supposed to do just that and we have more crashes than ever...
Now, regarding what you say that the problems with new imacs are mostly software related.
Many of them are indeed softaware related, but an abnormally huge number of new imacs
are comming out the pipeline with hardawre problems. To name just a few:

Defective hard disks...
Defective motherboards...
Keabords that dont work at all...
Monitor defects...
Defective modems...
And the list goes on...and on...

It really sounds to me that Apple is doing a
very poor job TESTING their imacs before they
are shipped. Too bad because the COULD otherwise be great machines.

[slboett]

If all you want is the answers you EXPECT, then don't call this a survey! People are telling you their feelings/thoughts. Use it or don't. As previous posters have said, all computers have some problems and in time, most software bugs a fixed. Either take what people say and use it or give it up.

Scott

[redondo]

I GIVE UP. YOU ARE ALL BLIND. LET IT BE...

[aniraf]

Thank you Scott!

You have hit it right on the target.

in all fairness to Apple, they did test the iMac before they shipped them. to put it simply they tested the design, not each individual iMac shipped, that would be impossible. the design is solid, there's little to be done about a few defective manufacturing flaws. nothing is perfect. These web boards also give a bit of a skewed perspective on what people are experiencing on their iMacs. These forums have been set up for frank discussion on all things iMacintosh (hee hee) and to deal with potential problems. There are a few people out there who seem hell-bent on knocking down the Macintosh platform, but on the most part I like to believe that we've helped people. My 2 cents.

[Keda]

WAKE UP!?

I dont think Apple makes bad products (or I wouldnt buy them), but I do think the attitude of the Mac community is in need of some adjustments.

I have used Macs & PeeCees for years (wich is why I use Macs). For most of that time, I have been in pro-windoze environments. This has left me with a seige mentality. I (like many of you) have been told over & over that my computer is a toy, joke, unusable for business...the list goes on. So I am in the habit of defending myself as well as Apple.

What I'm saying is that Apple doesnt need this anymore and neither do we. The Mac community needs to adopt a more discriminating attitude than before. We should insist on qulity and not make excuses for less.I will always advocate the Mac, and I dont want to back myself up with 2moro's products.

Growth can change, sometimes destroy a company. For Apple to remain strong, it needs intelligent customers, not mindless masses.

[slider]

I have to agree with Scott, I had been reading the posts and it seems to me that you already had your answer. I saw a lot of people that had no problems with their macs yet in this post you make no mention of that, that my iFriend is bias.

slider

Redondo, please cease to be SO obtuse!!! Do you really even read these replies? First of all, how did it even enter into your closed mind that these forums would be representative of the iMac experience? Generally, forums of this nature are always used to troubleshoot. For every negative comment that is generated on this forum, I bet that there is another iMac user sitting at home not feeling the need to post on these forums.
Another thing, I think I have the answer as to why your Windows machines at work don't lock up; maybe it's because you don't use them in the same way! Do you spend your time downloading the latest Beta release or shareware at work? I hope not. Those machines at work are also maintained at a much higher level than the one at home. Please in the future think before you post before you make such allegations.

[tke918]

Most of my friends(who use windows) are comlaining about windows
crash all the time.

[penginkun]

Regarding extension conflicts:

I've had my share over the years. My final solution? Load only what I need.

I haven't done an inventory to see how many third-party extensions and control panels I use, but I know it's less than ten. I have one for my tablet, one for my CDR, and I think that's about it...probably a couple more.

The end result is that I never have an extension conflict. Sure, there are lots of really cool and even useful extensions out there, but it's hardly Apple's fault if they don't play well without some help.

I don't think Lose... I mean, Windows has anything like extensions (maybe DLLs? or TSRs?) so I don't think this is an issue there. I could read off a long list of gripes and irritations I have with that other "OS" - each of which far outstrips a mere extension conflict in both scope and magnetude.

My computer here at home crashes maybe once a week. The computers at work (and I use several different stations during the week) are unstable, crashprone and just plain badly-maintained. You'd think Earthlink would take better care of its equpiment, eh? But the few Macs we have out there (and there are several, actually) are better maintained because the techs who use them are able to fix any problems which might arise. To fix a problem on a Windows machine you have to either call LAN services or you just reformat the drive, reinstall windows, and then call LAN services because they'll still have to set up the software and enter the network settings.

Fun, fun, fun. A lot worse than an extension conflict, let me tell you.

Um... Penginkun...

New Earthlink subscriber here... and I am starting to sweat! (GRIN)

Seriously now:

I use Windows NT based Dells at work, in a call-center enviroment, and I can count on a crash every 2 or 3 days... be it a DR WATSON in our account maintanence program, or some system wide glitch that knocks us out for an hour. It is truely pathetic, and a perfect example of why I went MAC. Before rejoining the computer world 3 years ago, (after a 5 year hiatius) my home computer was an Atari ST.. a straight-forward hobby computer, but it got the job done, and was stable.

Jumping back into the PC world was a learning experience, starting with a 486 running win3.1, and finishing up on my roomie's new 400mhz Gateway running win98. I had avoided MAC because of the bad things that I had heard about them, (ie, "forget about software... you can only buy Apple equip to work with it" etc etc) although I had several friends who owned them and loved them. After 3 years of fighting Windows and everything it has come to represent (slow, unstable, unpredictable, unforgiving...) I made the switch and I am loving it.

Yes, finding software for Mac is not as easy as going to Best Buy, and YES I still have crashes! However, the crashes are generally something that I have caused, and are easily fixed. I have yet to turn my Mac on and find some app no longer working, when there is no reason (I can find) for it not to be! My start-up time is MUCH faster than the Gateway my roomate has, and we both have comparable apps loading at startup. I can drop into sleep-mode with the push of a button. No menus... no 10 second delay while it "thinks" about my request, and when I shut down, it is nearly as fast, and just as easy. When I ask my Mac to do something, IT DOES IT! No waiting, no false starts and wierd error messages, none of this inane B.S. that seems to be a mandatory feature of every Windows-PC that I have ever used!

No, my Mac is not perfect yet, but it is as close as I have come in many, many years... and I am still counting the "Puck" in that statement!

(Not to go off on a rant or anything....)




[This message has been edited by bloodstone99 (edited 12-24-1999).]

[slboett]

To waste more bandwidth on chucklehead's "survey"...
Just picked up my iMac DVD SE tonight. After two-hours doing a low-level format of the drive (I do this with every computer right out of the box) I can say that I am just estatic over this Mac! It is odd though that the new DVD Update was not needed, neither was the DVD Software update - they were both current on this one (fresh from Apple). So I can't compare before and after with the DVD drive. I'm sure before the weekend is out, I will have crashed doing something. And I will still love this Mac and even recommend it - smoke that, Redondo!

Scott

Feel good factor.

This is the first time I've been moved to post a reply in a forum ...... so something must have hit a raw nerve. I just want to agree wholeheartedly with redondo - especially in relation to the imac monitor. I spent part of the morning in central London looking at monitors - trying to find a crisp 17" or 19 ". All the PC monitors I looked at suffered from blurred screens, especially at the corners. So I went into the Apple shop to get a dose of a good crisp, Sony trinitron screen ......and realised that the imac doesn't have a good crisp, Sony trinitron screen. It's got a very average 'PC' type screen .28 dot pitch - and the examples in the shop ( yes ..the ones on display !!) showed all the problems that I've read about in this forum - blurred corners, wobbly / wavey edges. Oh dear Mr. Jobbs - not a good move.

Just think about all the imac users who have similar problems who've never even come across this forum. There must be 10's of thousands out there. How large were your last month's profits ?

And the really sad thing is that the monitor is built in . Not like a cheap 15" bundled monitor that can be immediately upgraded. This is as good as it gets. The imac is not designed to be upgrded. That would make some sense if quality components had been used, but ....

I just feel very strongly that pressure should be put on Apple to make sure that the next version of the imac - be it 15 or 17" - has to have a QUALITY monitor. So every time anyone sits down at their computer they can say .....

"that's why I bought an Apple ... it's a TOP quality product without any cynical cost cutting measures. I don't feel cheated. A concscientious company has not just considered the bottom line, but they have shown that they are primarily concerned about my quality of life. They want me to feel good. Hey, I'll spread the good word about their products - and then they'll feel good . Symbiosis". ( or something like that .....)

As a loyal mac user I'm offended.

I have an order form sitting on my desk at work for 4 imac dv's and I'm going to make sure that I cross them off first thing Monday morning. Can't afford G4's and monitors so I'll have to consider PC's. What a sad state of affairs.

By the way, I'm typing this using an old 8100 and 14" ( 11.5" viewable ) Apple badged refurbished Sony screen - only 640x480 - but really nice and crisp. A quality monitor. It makes me feel good. It's not connected to a PC. It doesn't strain my eyes. I don't feel cheated. Luckily I haven't just bought an imac , got it home and realised that the hyped up , digital video ready, translucent case housed a second ( third ? ) rate monitor. Thanks redondo.

By the way again ....
I don't want to risk buying the imac's knowing that I can exchange them if the monitors are faulty. It's a flawed product. I would be worried that the monitor might go at any moment.

[Danoir]

SteveeD,

Good Lord. You are going to switch platforms over a couple of (very slighty) fuzzy monitors? I'm shocked and amazed. I assure you that the iMac is not a piece of junk and if your skilled eyes detect a small amount of bluriness when examining it then I would be inclined to say that it your problem, not Apple's. Seriously, has this alleged problem plagued anyone else? Wavy around the edges? What?

I'm personally unhappy with Apple because:

Last year they were intentionally preventing B&W G3 computer from being upgraded via a bogus firmware upgrade.

They removed the one slot in the iMac that could have allowed it to be internally upgraded.

They introduced the iMac DV with *horrible* DVD playback.

In an effort to make us buy a new OS every Six months they decided to release a buggy ram eater of an OS (OS9). With no usefull new features I might add.

I can't get the OS9 audio update installed on my iMac I bought 3 months ago, nor my iBook I bought 2 weeks ago because they use OS8.6 and apple has already stopped supporting an OS that still ships on new computers.

The new crop of iMacs mine included all seem to have some type of minor annoying hardware problem. (Ex. Going into a comma, Noisey 'quiet' hard drives.)

They bumped down the Mhz on the G4 systems and kept the price the same. That says a lot about apple imho.

The G4 Chips which can clock up to 800mhz are sitting at a pitiful 350 - 450mhz range. I remember Mac Users pokeing fun at Slow Intel Boxes when PPC Chips were leading in Quality and Mhz not so long ago.

The Graphics card in the iMac sucks, Apple might have had to raise the price of an iMac like $20 to make it a decent gameing machine.

They refuse to let Canadians such as myself buy online goods anywhere but Mac Warehouse. No we can't even use the apple store like any other country in the world.

iTools was designed for OS9 even though plenty of Macs are still shipping with OS 8.6.

Apple could have prevented me from having to pay $250 Canadian(64mb Ram) on top of the $2500 iBook price tag by including extra memory, we all know the freaken OS takes all the physical memory available and so does apple.

I wont get into OS X, except to say Remember when Mac users used to make fun of Windows 95 because it was just a Colorful DOS Application?

I don't care if it hurts sales or not, they should warn people before new products are released. $2000 Cdn. Might not be a lot of money to Steve Jobs, but for the poor souls who bought 333mhz iMacs when the DV's were a week away from hitting store shelves, it is a real kick in the teeth.

Anyway dispite all that I buy apple products. Why? Because a)They run the Mac OS and b)The hardware is better than the competition.

Companies are entitled to make mistakes, intentional or otherwise, but lets not feel like we are responsable for makeing excuses when Apple should be apologizing.

are some of you insane? i have an imac 350 and it is great! i love it! sure it had 8.6.1 on it when i got it out of the box but i simply used the apple up to date program and presto! mac os 9 was at my door in 3 weeks for the price of 19.99. now dont even tell me that apple is doing a bad job w/anything because your way off. By the way the imac has one of the best displays that i have ever seen.

FYI there is no such thing as 'apple update plan' in Canada. But I agree with you about the Monitors, big improvement from my Magnavox 14" display.

[bood69]

I agree with iMac-er that the iMac has an excellent display. All this B.S. about poor built-in monitors is completely unwarranted.

as i sit here at my iMac and look at the screen, i wonder what all that talk about bad screen display means? i use peecee's at school and i think that my screen image is the same or better. i think my iMac is great... I have had a few minor problems but everything has been easily fixed and been caused more because of my own lack of knowledge than anything else.

[Ca$h68]

SETIC, I agree with EVERYTHING you wrote. And all of that isn't what pisses me off. The fact that they dont listen to us at all pisses me off. According to some recent survey, like 90% of the public hates that stupid mouse. Guess what all the new G4s still ship with? Yep. And yeah, Apple is making hellafied profits by not letting us upgrade ANYTHING... they are preventing other companies from making upgrades as well, and I think that is a bad move. I am ALSO one of those unlucky bastards who bougth a 333mhz iMac RIGHT before the new one was introduced, I think like 2 weeks prior. Gee thanks apple. I just spent 1200 on something I can get for 750 now. Dickheads. You want me to REALLY GO OFF?!?! WHAT THE HELL IS WITH THESE COMPLETE BALLS OF HORSE SH*T VIDEO CARDS!?!?!?!?! 6 MEG ATI RAGE PRO?!?!? THATS PATHETIC! COMPLETELY PATHETIC! THat card was pretty much out dated when I opened the box! But for a poor college kid like me, could I afford a big G4 or something? No way in hell. So I'm stuck with an iMac that IS a nice quality product, unfortunatly it leaves SOO much to be desired graphic wise that I'm embarassed to take it to lan parties because all my PC friends can spend 100 bucks (or less) and pop in a 16meg 3dfx voodoo2. BITE ME APPLE! KISS MY ASS! Once I get out of college, and I get a job with you guys, I'm going to be a freaking drill sergent and whip your butts into shape. I want macs with NON retarded mouses, I want macs with VERY NICE VIDEO CARDS (because lets face it, cost is NOT an issue. If someone isnt really concerned with graphics they can probably just purchase an older mac with lots of RAM at dirt cheap prices) and I want Macs that dont even have some stupid extension conflict and mysterious crashes. I'm tired of this crap, but I do know that I'd be even MORE unhappy with a PC and its various problems. I'm saying that Apple has a better produce (save for the video cards) BUT Apple is being completely retarded and shooting themselves in the foot by not listening to what the public wants, and killing all aftermarket upgrades. So if any apple tech reads this, get this: IM PISSED OFF AND I HATE YOU AND I HOPE YOU GET DUMPED TOMORROW ON VALENTINES DAY.
Ca$h

wow... you seem pretty angry cash... i still contend that iMacs are great computers and i love mine. of course, i don't have the 333 mhz version either, so maybe i don't have room to say anything on the matter. anyway, i was just wondering what happened to all the devoted and loyal macintosh fans.

this is just a fun site for those of you out there who are devoted macintosh fans and a little on the anti bill gates side.... http://www.ihatebillgates.com/funthings/
spooky, isn't it?

[Sender]

I'm a devoted mac user, but that dosn't mean I think we should be apologists for everything that comes out of Cupertino. From what I've seen, most other Mac users don't either.

Two incidents in recent months illustrate this pretty well: The G4 speed dump/order cancellation, and more recently, the iTools public folder issure. In both cases Mac users raised hell, and in both cases Apple made it right.

After one month, my iMac SE's HD had a whine so obnoxious that neighborhood dogs were momentarily stunned when walking by. I took it in, and Apple made it right.

Some people still haven't figured out that the iMac was not intended for everybody, but it's still the best at what it does.

[Ca$h68]

Not to be rude, but hey wake up and smell the coffee... Bill Gates owns apple. If you don't cooperate with Windoze, we get killed. Apple was too freaking retarded a few years ago to get the following that IBMs have, and there isnt much we cand o about it.
Ca$h

[Misha]

Cash, Bill Gates does not own Apple, unless you're using "own" in reference the fact that MS is so powerful that they basically "own" everything (if they cut Office off, for example, Macs will be in dire straights).

To respond to a few points that Setic made:

In an effort to make us buy a new OS every Six months they decided to release a buggy ram eater of an OS (OS9). With no usefull new features I might add.

It was more than a year since OS 8.5 (the last pay-for OS upgrade was released). OS 9 offers a bunch of new features, although I must admit it was more of a $49 upgrade, not a $99 upgrade. Among those is support for iTools...

I can't get the OS9 audio update installed on my iMac I bought 3 months ago, nor my iBook I bought 2 weeks ago because they use OS8.6 and apple has already stopped supporting an OS that still ships on new computers.

There's a reason OS 9 Audio Update is called OS 9 Audio Update... because it's for OS 9. In all seriousness, the main feature of OS 9 Audio Udpate is support/drivers for the iSub. Mac OS 8.6 doesn't support USB audio, so to say that Apple doesn't support computers with 8.6 is false. Heck, Windows NT 4.0 doesn't suppport USB (2000 does); that doesn't mean that Microsoft doesn't support Win NT 4.0. It just menas that there's a new product to develope for... that's the way it's always worked.

The new crop of iMacs mine included all seem to have some type of minor annoying hardware problem. (Ex. Going into a comma, Noisey 'quiet' hard drives.)

The majority are fine.

They bumped down the Mhz on the G4 systems and kept the price the same. That says a lot about apple imho.

This has to do with what Apple was assuming Moto would sell the G4 chips for. Since Moto doesn't publically disclose those figures (unlike Intel), the public doesn't know specifically. If Moto had released a 500 MHz chip the 450, 400, and 350 would have dropped in price... but since 450 MHz was the fastest they could go, they let the 450 MHz chip assume the high-end price that the 500 MHz chip would have.

The G4 Chips which can clock up to 800mhz are sitting at a pitiful 350 - 450mhz range. I remember Mac Users pokeing fun at Slow Intel Boxes when PPC Chips were leading in Quality and Mhz not so long ago.

I don't know where you're getting this information from... the current G4s were designed to run at 350 MHz. It's been a chore for Moto to get them up to 450 MHz, and an even bigger headache to get them up to 500 MHz. We're not going to see anything faster than 500 MHz from the current G4s.

The Graphics card in the iMac sucks, Apple might have had to raise the price of an iMac like $20 to make it a decent gameing machine.

Blame ATI for this one. They're the OEM supplier for Apple and the fact that Apple included the fastest graphics card it could at the time (Rage 128) even though it's dated isn't their fault. It's ATI's.

iTools was designed for OS9 even though plenty of Macs are still shipping with OS 8.6.

(see above) That's like saying Win2000 is the first NT-caliber Win OS to support USB, even though plenty are still using NT 4.0. (No Macs ship with 8.6 anymore; at least none that weren't manufactured less than a few months ago.)

I wont get into OS X, except to say Remember when Mac users used to make fun of Windows 95 because it was just a Colorful DOS Application?

And I won't get into this because the underlying technology found in OS X is very advanced... I assume you're not that familiar with it. The interface is just a slick perk.

I don't care if it hurts sales or not, they should warn people before new products are released. $2000 Cdn. Might not be a lot of money to Steve Jobs, but for the poor souls who bought 333mhz iMacs when the DV's were a week away from hitting store shelves, it is a real kick in the teeth.

That's the way the market and this industry works. It always has and it always will. Otherwise no one would buy the older inventory... margins are too small.

[redondo]

You are right (Misha) in one or two of your points,
but overall sounds to me (and to any objective -not blinded mac user) like you
are excussing Apple for putting out crappy
hardware.
Why is it that we mac users (and for the most part mac loyals) over and over we keep
excussing Apple for faulty computers?
Are we suppossed to take it just because we
like the Mac OS system?
And again I insist the the new crop of imacs
are cheap low quality machines that happen to
run on a very nice system.

[slboett]

So tell me, Redondo, what is an acceptable number of failures in a product line?
I've now setup dozens of new iMacs and G4s with one DOA - and it was only a power supply. What IS your point? What computer has BETTER (fewer) failure rates? You see some threads in a TROUBLESHOOTING FORUM and make these wild assumptions that Apple quality sucks and Mac users are just blind idiots. Where is your DATA?

Scott

[Misha]

I'm not excusing Apple, I'm just trying to point out that it's not just their fault.

I have to say the PowerBook G3/400 that I use as my main Mac was perhaps the last thing that Apple released that didn't have a single widespread glitch. There was the DVD drive problem that Apple fixed with a firmware update a month after they shipped, but otherwise the PowerBooks G3s have been very solid accross the board.

it seems like cash and redondo are just trollers to me.

in any event, windoz users with nothing better to do than yap in mac forums aside, the iMac does have some issues. the whole point was to make a computer for the rest of us, a lot like another project that came out of cupertino a while ago...
i'm a 15-year mac user, and i've seen the OS go from inscrutable to unbearable to unbelieveable back to inscrutable...the machines have turned from boxes to display pieces...& the company go from zenith to nadir and back. i've used other platforms (not extensively) and been giddy with joy when i've returned to my macs. the idea of a hi-tech company maing domething you *don't* need a graduate degree to use is still refreshing, after all these years.
I agree that the round mouse is lame, but i also have an art director here at work who won't use anything else. seems if you hold it just so it rests the arm in a perfect stress-free manner. i can't do it (i love the 5 buttons on my kensington mouseworks) but it's not such a slam dunk against the thing. they really need to rethink the keyboard.
my iMac DV at home works like a joy, and in a side-by-side comparison with the peecee in my roommate's part of the house, it's rock steady, ultra-fast, and unbelievably simple to use. admittedly, the P2 266 doesn't really belong in the same sentence as my G3 400, and i have 192 megs of RAM to his 128, and his comp is a little older...but he's had a year or so to familiarize himself with his system, and still has mysterious, unsolvable troubles. i don't! add to that my actual plug & play, and not the cruel joke that windoz inflicts on users, and i can't see a comparison.
i'm writing this from an office of Macs, from accounting to creative, maintained entirely by a production artist/illustrator (me!) with no formal rech support training. if i can handle all 15 computers in my office for 5 years worth of upgrades, refurbs, and systems shuffling from one office to another, then jeez, shouldn't i be able to do the same with a windows setup? i mean, which one of us wouldn't welcome the chance to handle 15 or so peecees networked over an SDSL router with 4 different operating systems running concurrently? sounds like a breeze!
well, this is too long already.
-k

Not Happy with iMac DVSE our 5th Mac.
Number one, this is a supposed to be a consumer friedly Mac meant for the 1st time buyer.
Had to have noisy hard drive replaced.
Crashes all the time even on SimpleText
OS 9 is bloated with usless features.
DVD is loaded with glitches.
Modem is too whimpy to handle rated connection speed.
Isn't compatible with AOL
Automatic sleep is quirky.
Sound panel always needs adjusting.
Have to stay on top of all the upgrades that are suppose to fix the problems but don't.
We are Mac loyalists but are sick of all this trouble shooting.

[Q-Chan]

This "survey" has been banging around this forum for months now, and I have yet to see Redondo offer any hint of what, exactly, it is to be used for. He calls himself "objective," and then in the same posting calls the new iMacs "cheap low quality machines." And he gets angry if people don't gripe about enough troubles with their Macs.

I've had a DV SE for three months now. Yes, it crashes every once in a while. Yes, it's somewhat annoying that it won't be upgradeable. Yes, i was displeased that I had to pay 20 bucks for an OS upgrade that should have come with the machine. But overall, i'm very happy with my iMac. Guess that means i don't qualify for the survey, eh?

So i ask, Redondo: What IS the point? Inquiring minds want to know.

[MAlan]

I love my iMac DV/SE. I've been able to record my own original music on it, put the DVD movies on the Television with iTview, put the music I've recorded onto CD with my firewire CD writer, scan great images with my microtek scanner, and print those images with my Epson 760.

I don't like Mac OS 9 because they didn't trouble shoot it enough before they released it. Likewise with the fixes...however, I have my hard drive partitioned so I can bounce back and forth between 9.0 and 8.6. I use 9.0 for everything except my audio recording that I have to use 8.6 for because of the sound latency issues.

I think OS 9 has a lot of nice features though...Sherlock 2 and various other internet related things. I just wish it was good at the fundamentals that it doesn't achieve. OS 9 does seem to be a little more stable than 8.6.

All in all, iMac DV/SE kicks ass. I can't wait to put OS X on my machine which will completely replace OS 9.

Yikes and Jeepers! What a topic!

This proud and very satisfied Rev.B iMac owner is ticked by the following type of BS...

"iMac is no good because...
- it doesn't have a 17" screen!
- it doesn't have 14 PCI slots!
- it doesn't 20 cables hanging out the back!
- it doesn't run windoze!
- it doean't have the latest Video card that came out six months AFTER I bought the iMac!
- it doesnt this, it don't have that, Waa Waa Waa!"

If you are this kind why the hell did you by the thing it the first place? Were you paying attention?

As for the rediculous comment made to the effect "each Mac OS has been worse then the last, more crashes , etc." What planet are you from? From my experience with macs since OS 7.1 the OS has just got better and better. Note I said "better" and not perfect! Nothing ever is and I don't expect it to be.

It was also commented "I doubt that OS X will fix this (crashes)" An even more rediculous thing to say. Have you educated yourself about these issues at all?

Perhaps you types making these comments really think this way, in which case i suggest you either educate yourself or get professional help, whichever is appropriate.

Perhaps you're just a Windoze troller looking to sow hate and discontent, in which case you are beyond help.....

[This message has been edited by RockLord (edited 02-14-2000).]

[MAlan]

Right on RockLord!!!!!!!!! I hadn't read redondo's reply to me early on in the forum until now but that is a very uneducated response and I have to say I'm very disappointed in the lack of depth you bring to this subject.

Redondo you should know that Mac OS X is to the Mac OS what Windows NT is to windows 98/95. OS X is an advanced operating system with hardware abstraction built on a unix microkernel. Do you know about any of these things? OS X fixes the crashing problem in general. With features like pre-emptive multitasking and protected memory complete system freezes are almost completely eradicated. Microsoft has pulled this off with Windows NT. I use it at work and it only freezes when our crappy Novell software disrupts NT's low level functionality.

However, while NT is the best Microsoft has to offer now (until 2000 comes out of course) it is still harder to use than the Mac OS and buggy. The windows explorer for example always crashes...you can kill that process whenever you want but it is a horrible application. Manipulating deep file systems on the Windows platform is burdensome. Fixing address and resource conflicts on NT is extremely difficult, trying to do windows Active X programming is a pain to because your forced to deal with the registry every day...

and I can go on and on and on...

When I go home I'm in computer heaven. The problems I have on the Mac platform are minimal and the ones I do have are pinpointed to specific root causes. This is much harder on Windows...troubleshooting, that is...I've talked to people working with Win 98...forget about it they have installed their system software so many times it isn't worth mentioning.

How about when NT has a problem. Everyday when I boot the computer I'm typing on now I pray to get past that blue screen. If you have ever had the blue screen of death forget it...its time to reformat and repartition the hard drive because you can't get in to see any of your files.

Apple could have released OS X a long time ago but they would have alienated the mac faithful if they would have done that. Their revised approach makes much more sense and now we are finally going to see it. I already know it works to because it is based on NeXT technology. I used next's for 4 years at college and they were great machine's.

Good luck to you redondo in your endeavors...it would be good for you to inform yourself before tackling such a subject in the future.

Your problem with crashing upon wake-up is most likely due to the fact that you may have trashed the "multiprocessing" folder in your extensions folder.
:HAn.

Misha,

Just to clarify a little:

a)I would have liked to have seen the iMacs ship with the 16mb ATI Rage 128 Pro, the cost difference wouldn't have been very much when you consider the quantity apple would have been buying.

b)The G4 Processor clocks to 800mhz if your willing to play with the jumpers.

c)I wanted OS9 Audio update because I was hoping it would make my DVD Sync Issue go away, but apparently that route isn't open to people with 8.6 like me.

d)My two week old iBook came with OS 8.6, and while apple might not be shipping it's new machines with 8.6 any longer. I assure you there are plenty around that haven't been sold and they should still be supporting it.

e)It's very clear they are not interested in allowing people to upgrade their computers. Not even the graphics card it seems (Probably because gamers are more likely to buy a new computer when Quake V comes out).

f)The MacOS is gone, OS9 was the final version. We are now going to be using a variation of NextStep with the apple logo in the middle of the screen if i'm following the articals correctly. I just think it's funny because I used to read all sorts of critical Mac articals about Windows 95 and how it wasn't a real operating system because it was just a flashey interface over a command prompt. Maybe it's just me but it seems kind of ironic.


g)I realize it's difficult to liqudate old inventory after a new product announcement but that doesn't make is 'OK'. If Apple wants to coax it's loyal customers into buying second rate machinery just before a major product release, fine. I can't do anything about it but lets stop saying they actually care about anything besides our dollars.

Well lets put it this way, I'm happier with my Macs than I am with the way Apple has been acting lately.

safe to assume that MikeF either doesn't have one, or is doing something amazingly wrong..."Crashes even on simpletext"? come on troll boy.
that's not even very clever.

[Misha]

Setic,

a)I would have liked to have seen the iMacs ship with the 16mb ATI Rage 128 Pro, the cost difference wouldn't have been very much when you consider the quantity apple would have been buying.

So it would have cost Apple what, $10? $20? Multiply that by 2 million iMacs and that's $20 million... that's a lot of money.

b)The G4 Processor clocks to 800mhz if your willing to play with the jumpers.


That doesn't mean a thing, though... I can refill the nitrous (21% oxygen) bottole in my car with a straight up O2 (100% oxygen) and achieve 600+ HP for a couple seconds before fuel runs lean and my engine essentially explodes. G4s are designed for 350 MHz. They have them up to 500 MHz stable. That's as fast as the G4 will go, hence the G4e that is in development.

c)I wanted OS9 Audio update because I was hoping it would make my DVD Sync Issue go away, but apparently that route isn't open to people with 8.6 like me.

There's been some controversy as to whether or not this actually fixes the problem; but point well taken.

f)The MacOS is gone, OS9 was the final version. We are now going to be using a variation of NextStep with the apple logo in the middle of the screen if i'm following the articals correctly.

Well, no, not really... it's much, much more...

g)I realize it's difficult to liqudate old inventory after a new product announcement but that doesn't make is 'OK'. If Apple wants to coax it's loyal customers into buying second rate machinery just before a major product release, fine. I can't do anything about it but lets stop saying they actually care about anything besides our dollars.

Think about it this way... you're annoyed beacuse you bought an old iMac a few weeks before the new ones came out, so you think that Apple should pre-announce products, say a month in advance, to avoid this. Then what will the people who bought an old iMac a few weeks before that announcement think? "If only I'd waited a month or two..." It turns into a vicious circle, and Apple's only doing what everyone else in the industry is.

[Zordab]

Hey! Whats with these cheap keyboards on the new iMacs? I've owned my DV for 3 months and I'm on my second keyboard. Can't even play a pinball game on these damn things! The old mac keyboard was much better. Used and abused it for 5 years and it still works fine. Even had my gaming friends pounding their fist into it. The new keyboard was treated much better and lasted 2 months. Have you ever taken one of the keys off and seen whats under there? Not much. A little piece of cheap wire and inflated plastic. No wonder it has a problem. Can anyone recommend a good gaming keyboard?

[slboett]

Actually, the crummy little iMac/G3/G4 keyboard is one of the best (personal likes/dislikes aside) quality keyboards I've seen. I have yet to have one go bad. You must either be really hard on yours or had a streak o' bad luck.

Scott

You know all !
Mac computers have FANS...
and wintel computers have USERS !
This is the difference !

I'm really glad I got the iMac 333 - runs absolutely perfectly and does everything I need it to do -

[TwinFeats]

Operatings systems are always problematic at the personal computer level. Even Gates was recently quoted as saying the Windows 2000 is "dramatically more stable" than their previous OS releases. I had various PC's with various Windows releases for 10 years, until last January I decided to switch to a Mac. I had no Mac experience, but Windows was just getting out of control with all the crashes and hidden registry stuff that takes a Windows expert to decipher, particularly when trying to remove an app. I was quite nervous about switching because I too had read in places like this about all the problems people were having with their Macs, but I decided *anything* was better than suffering with Windows any longer. I didn't want to delve into Linux because of all the expertise required to manage all the little files involved with a Unix OS, so I settled on Mac. I'll never go back! Sure I've had problems from time to time, but what I like about my Mac is that *I* can take care of it. People may complain about extensions but at least they are all right there, out in the open, and in plain text unlike the Windows registry. What *few* problems I have had I've been able to work around or solve myself, ususally in a matter of minutes not hours or even days like I've experienced with Windows. MacOS is *far* from perfect, as is Windows, but I truly enjoy my Mac, something I never experienced with any of my Windows machines. I think it's because I can work so easily with my Mac, even when there are problems, whereas Windows also seemed like a struggle when problems arose. I'm a Mac user now - when people at my work degrade my little iBook and wonder what such a sharp guy like me would be caught dead with a "toy Mac" I ask them what they've done with their PC's at home. Far more often than not, it's 99% games. And after they get finished telling me about the latest game they can play on their PC that I can't, I run down the *long* list of things I do with my iBook - video capture and editing, working on both my personal (www.twinfeats.com) and commercial web sites, writing a number of java programs from applets to servlets, writing commercial apps for my PalmPilot....the list goes on. Usually my iBook critics get pretty quiet after I show them everything I can do and have done with my Macs *besides* playing games.

[enigmamf]

And the ironic thing is that the slot loading iMacs don't have fans in them. I love convection!

Originally posted by Shaman-BG:
You know all !
Mac computers have FANS...
and wintel computers have USERS !
This is the difference !