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US Primary Season 2016: Come for the numbers, stay for the punditry (Page 14)
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subego
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Jun 5, 2016, 03:17 PM
 
Republican politicians tend to be pretty clueless about what it's like to be poor. This leads them to make ignorant commentary and policy.

Such commentary and policy gets them called racist, but most of the time I don't think is actually racist.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jun 5, 2016, 03:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Captain Obvious View Post
It won't.
Sure it will.
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Cap'n Tightpants
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Jun 5, 2016, 03:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Career politicians tend to be pretty clueless about what it's like to be poor.
ftfy
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
subego
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Jun 5, 2016, 04:08 PM
 
Democratic Career politicians force themselves to be around poor people.

While the motives may be entirely mercenary, the unintended consequence is being more in touch with them.
     
OreoCookie
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Jun 5, 2016, 09:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
That'll probably change by the time the convention rolls around.
Yes. And what does that say about those Republicans?
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OreoCookie
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Jun 5, 2016, 09:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
… i see them both as part of the problem in politics, and both practice the same divisive race driven politics. Where one appealed to one race, the other appeals to the other.
Now you're contradicting your initial claim:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Trump is not running a bigoted or racist campaign.
So which is it?

I think you keep on skirting this issue: you're trying to argue semantics, trying to change the topic to violence at his rallies (which is a fair issue, but not the one that we are arguing now), trying to make it into a Democrat-vs.-Republican issue when I gave plenty of examples that it isn't — which you conveniently ignore. When was the last time that a Republican (presumptive) nominee did not have the support of former living Republican Presidents? When was the last time when a prominent Republican declared that the frontrunner in his own party's primary was akin to being shot in the head (and the runner-up was akin to being poisoned)?

I have the impression you're trying very hard to make this into a traditional Democrat-vs.-Republican Presidential race when it clearly isn't.
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Cap'n Tightpants
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Jun 5, 2016, 11:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Yes. And what does that say about those Republicans?
They want to win? He's no worse than Hillary, she's a known criminal and security threat.
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subego
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Jun 6, 2016, 08:35 AM
 
She'd be a minor security threat.

That's the beauty of being president... you have the CIA, FBI, and the NSA respectively growing your pot, taking down your enemies, and managing servers in your closet.
     
subego
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Jun 6, 2016, 11:17 AM
 
JuRY pointed out you could file the serial numbers off of Hillary's San Diego speech, have a Republican say it, and no one would bat an eye.

The specific talking points he mentioned were...

Taking Trump to task for being anti-Reagan.
Taking Trump to task for attacking (2008 Nazi Boogeyman) John McCain.
Bringing up Abraham Lincoln.
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Cap'n Tightpants
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Jun 6, 2016, 02:58 PM
 
JuRY is desperate, I no longer trust his motives.
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subego
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Jun 6, 2016, 03:17 PM
 
I still don't really know what those motives are.

Comedy? Downloads?
     
Chongo
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Jun 6, 2016, 06:02 PM
 
True? I don't remember either being asked.
45/47
     
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Jun 6, 2016, 06:31 PM
 
Because when her father was in office she was like 14?
And back then she wasn't pushed out in front of the press as a surrogate for the campaign?

Don't be a dolt.
The roles the kids play in 2016 and which parent is a nominee has everything to do with what character flaws are valid fodder for scrutiny.

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Chongo
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Jun 6, 2016, 07:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Captain Obvious View Post
Because when her father was in office she was like 14?
And back then she wasn't pushed out in front of the press as a surrogate for the campaign?

Don't be a dolt.
The roles the kids play in 2016 and which parent is a nominee has everything to do with what character flaws are valid fodder for scrutiny.
I thought it was obvious( ) it was in reference to Chelsea's current role and not about back in the day. Don't forget Ma Hillary was in charge of the "Bimbo Eruption Team"
( Last edited by Chongo; Jun 6, 2016 at 09:36 PM. )
45/47
     
Hawkeye_a
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Jun 6, 2016, 07:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Now you're contradicting your initial claim:

So which is it?
Just because both appeal to different "races" doesn't make either "racist" IMHO. They are both doing the same thing, and you seem to have a problem *now*, when the other side is doing it. I take issue with your side's hypocrisy. And i dont think either side *should* be doing it. But im not interested in affording one side the liberty to do it and to call out the other side.

IMHO, im not trying very hard to do anything. It seems like the left is trying very very hard to find something where there isn't. Thats all i have to say about this non-issue, i suggest we start discussing more important things with regard to the election.

You want to believe Trump is a racist, go ahead. And i dont have to believe it, or to agree with you. We can agree to disagree.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jun 6, 2016, 08:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I still don't really know what those motives are.

Comedy? Downloads?
Sorry. His solo endeavors haven't borne the fruit he thought they would. The problem is, most of the Night Attack crowd isn't listening to his solo work, most are libertarians who don't care for PoliticsX3 (myself included). Also, he's more than a little scared of a Trump White House, about as much as I am for Hillary or Trump.
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subego
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Jun 7, 2016, 06:46 AM
 
Interesting.

I ultimately listen because I like him, so if he lets the personal leak in I'm okay with it.

That said, he still seems pretty even-handed. He certainly gave Hillary and Bernie a lot of pipe last show.
     
BadKosh
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Jun 7, 2016, 09:19 AM
 
So if President LIAR is going to endorse Hillary, Then it suggests the STUPIDEST THING you could do is VOTE FOR HER! He's been wrong about everything else.

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/na...382044231.html
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jun 7, 2016, 11:56 AM
 
Jesus, even republicans are calling Trump's comments racist.

Oh and to put Trump in further context, the RNC apologized for the southern strategy in 2005. Trumps establishment hire is Paul Manafort, architect of the southern strategy.

But yeah both sides are 'the same'
     
BadKosh
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Jun 7, 2016, 12:15 PM
 
So President LIAR is going to support Hillary and go stump for her! I wonder how bad his stammer will be?
     
OAW
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Jun 7, 2016, 03:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Jesus, even republicans are calling Trump's comments racist.

Oh and to put Trump in further context, the RNC apologized for the southern strategy in 2005. Trumps establishment hire is Paul Manafort, architect of the southern strategy.

But yeah both sides are 'the same'
When you have the GOP leaders of the House AND the Senate saying things like this about the presumptive GOP Presidential nominee ..

Paul Ryan rips Donald Trump remarks as 'textbook definition of racist comment' - CNNPolitics.com

Trump should stop attacking minority groups: Senate's McConnell | Reuters

... it becomes increasingly difficult to credibly put one's head in the sand and try to dismiss the criticism of Trump's rhetoric as being mere "political correctness" on the left.

OAW
     
subego
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Jun 7, 2016, 03:26 PM
 
I'm going to go counter to the crowd and say this is less racist than it is big ****in crybaby needs a waaaaaamulance.
     
OAW
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Jun 7, 2016, 03:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
When you have the GOP leaders of the House AND the Senate saying things like this about the presumptive GOP Presidential nominee ..

Paul Ryan rips Donald Trump remarks as 'textbook definition of racist comment' - CNNPolitics.com

Trump should stop attacking minority groups: Senate's McConnell | Reuters

... it becomes increasingly difficult to credibly put one's head in the sand and try to dismiss the criticism of Trump's rhetoric as being mere "political correctness" on the left.

OAW
And isolated incident? Or the beginning of a stampede for the exits?

GOP Senator Mark Kirk Unendorses Trump - The Daily Beast

OAW
     
subego
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Jun 7, 2016, 04:05 PM
 
Looking to the other side for a moment, kinda have to call shenanigans on the primary getting called for Clinton the day before the final primaries.
     
subego
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Jun 7, 2016, 04:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
And isolated incident? Or the beginning of a stampede for the exits?

GOP Senator Mark Kirk Unendorses Trump - The Daily Beast

OAW
My cynical side says you'll be able to determine who does this based on whether they have a tough general coming up.

Say, for example, Tammy Duckworth has you in her crosshairs...
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jun 7, 2016, 04:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm going to go counter to the crowd and say this is less racist than it is big ****in crybaby needs a waaaaaamulance.
yeah, maybe if we didn't have the rest of his primary campaign to compare it to
     
subego
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Jun 7, 2016, 05:41 PM
 
I think his primary campaign has been far less racist than it's being made out to be.

You can call his anti-Muslim sentiments racist, but it's Mexicans we're talking about, right?
     
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Jun 7, 2016, 07:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I think his primary campaign has been far less racist than it's being made out to be.

You can call his anti-Muslim sentiments racist, but it's Mexicans we're talking about, right?
I'm quite sick of this "racist" non-issue (despite what democrats/republicans/regressives) might say. But, Subego, i'm curious as to what YOUR opinion is to this:

If, in 1940, a country were to ban members/voters/supporters of the Nazi party, would YOU consider that to be a racist/bigoted policy? Would it be justified?
(It's a terrible analogy as the aforementioned group is almost exclusively european caucasian, and the other ban proposed by Trump refers to peoples from different continents, cultures, languages and races(african, arab, south asian, east asian, slavic, etc)).
     
Chongo
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Jun 7, 2016, 07:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I think his primary campaign has been far less racist than it's being made out to be.

You can call his anti-Muslim sentiments racist, but it's Mexicans we're talking about, right?
If it hasn't been said before, Muslim is not a race/ethnicity.
45/47
     
subego
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Jun 7, 2016, 08:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
If it hasn't been said before, Muslim is not a race/ethnicity.
I generally don't mind too much if people misapply the term. I understand what they mean.
     
subego
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Jun 7, 2016, 08:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
I'm quite sick of this "racist" non-issue (despite what democrats/republicans/regressives) might say. But, Subego, i'm curious as to what YOUR opinion is to this:

If, in 1940, a country were to ban members/voters/supporters of the Nazi party, would YOU consider that to be a racist/bigoted policy? Would it be justified?
(It's a terrible analogy as the aforementioned group is almost exclusively european caucasian, and the other ban proposed by Trump refers to peoples from different continents, cultures, languages and races(african, arab, south asian, east asian, slavic, etc)).
Separate from the geographical and racial differences, I'm not sure I'm on board with the Muslims = Nazis analogy.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jun 7, 2016, 09:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Looking to the other side for a moment, kinda have to call shenanigans on the primary getting called for Clinton the day before the final primaries.
Nah. If anything it's more likely to make her voters complacent. Clinton gains nothing by the APs claim.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
I think his primary campaign has been far less racist than it's being made out to be.

You can call his anti-Muslim sentiments racist, but it's Mexicans we're talking about, right?
The man lives and breathes stereotypes. See his comments about Jewish accountants. This brings me to another point I was going to make, but I think the term 'racism' suffers from the same drawbacks as 'rape'. People automatically think of the worst case meaning of the term. Trump's not a racist in the sense of someone who uses the n-word, thinks blacks are inferior, etc. He's a racist because he views everyone through a prism of stereotypes. It's the same reason he's a misogynist and xenophobe. Illegal immigrants are rapists, Mexicans love taco bowls, Jews are great to have as accountants, etc. There's probably numerous examples, but I don't have the time to google.
     
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Jun 7, 2016, 10:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Separate from the geographical and racial differences, I'm not sure I'm on board with the Muslims = Nazis analogy.
I asked you...

If, in 1940, a country were to ban members/voters/supporters of the Nazi party, would YOU consider that to be a racist/bigoted policy? Would it be justified?

(Im not going to pose this question again, if you dont want to answer, thats fine)
     
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Jun 7, 2016, 10:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
My cynical side says you'll be able to determine who does this based on whether they have a tough general coming up.

Say, for example, Tammy Duckworth has you in her crosshairs...
That would assume all of those endorsements came out of actual desire to back Trump rather than out of obligation and pressure from leadership to try and present a united front for the sake of appearances. It would be a stupid assumption.
Its more likely that those GOP in Congress, like Kirk, who are in competitive races are just looking for a plausible excuse to revoke their pledge to support the party's candidate because he never shared their agenda from the get go.

And because he's toxic to their campaign:
Ellmers bragged about Trump's endorsement and hoped it would spur some late enthusiasm for her campaign.

It didn't. On Tuesday evening, Ellmers became the first Republican congressional incumbent to lose a primary in 2016. And she not only lost; she got blown out by Rep. George Holding. She trails by about 30 points with 95 percent of precincts reporting.


There's next to no purple or blue states where Trump helps another Republican win in the fall.
With Trump at the top of the ticket the majorities in Congress are wiped out 6 months from now.

Barack Obama: Four more years of the Carter Presidency
     
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Jun 7, 2016, 10:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
I asked you...

If, in 1940, a country were to ban members/voters/supporters of the Nazi party, would YOU consider that to be a racist/bigoted policy? Would it be justified?
America didn't.

Hell we didn't even put the dirty krauts in internment camps like the Japanese people born here.

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subego
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Jun 7, 2016, 11:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
I asked you...

If, in 1940, a country were to ban members/voters/supporters of the Nazi party, would YOU consider that to be a racist/bigoted policy? Would it be justified?

(Im not going to pose this question again, if you dont want to answer, thats fine)
I'm in no way trying to dodge the question, but since an analogy is trying to be drawn, the better I understand the analogy, the more constructive I can make the response.

Would it be racist? No. Race isn't the determining factor in the ban.
Would it be bigoted? It could fairly be termed highly intolerant of Naziism.
Would it be justified? It grinds really hard against my civil liberties inclinations. I can't really say those inclinations would survive a potential hot war with a totalitarian, first world country.
     
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Jun 8, 2016, 01:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
I'm quite sick of this "racist" non-issue (despite what democrats/republicans/regressives) might say. But, Subego, i'm curious as to what YOUR opinion is to this:

If, in 1940, a country were to ban members/voters/supporters of the Nazi party, would YOU consider that to be a racist/bigoted policy? Would it be justified?
(It's a terrible analogy as the aforementioned group is almost exclusively european caucasian, and the other ban proposed by Trump refers to peoples from different continents, cultures, languages and races(african, arab, south asian, east asian, slavic, etc)).
The best way to deal with those people is to give them the spotlight, let them talk. Sunlight is one hell of a disinfectant; let everyone see how nutty some beliefs are and the issues will take care of themselves. The more people try to block and disrupt Trump's rallies, the more backing he'll receive from those who also feel like they're being silenced or marginalized by the MSM and various political machines.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
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Jun 8, 2016, 01:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I generally don't mind too much if people misapply the term. I understand what they mean.
I truly don't. Religion, though it may seem as if it isn't at times, is a choice, and Islam is the worst choice out of a mountain of questionable ones. People can worship how they choose, as long as they leave it at the mosque or at home, where it belongs. If any good has come from this, it's shown Christians in the West just how important the separation of Church and State is.
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Jun 8, 2016, 02:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by Captain Obvious View Post
America didn't.
Hell we didn't even put the dirty krauts in internment camps like the Japanese people born here.
I only recently became aware of what is in that picture. And i hear what you are saying about sunlight being the best disinfectant , and i totally agree. Thats why the freedom of speech is so very important; Europe and Australia do not have it anymore. (And i agree with your follow up posts as well).

The reason for my question to Subego ....
If I was a person in that time and place in that picture above, would I be considered a bigot/racist for fearing and avoiding the people in that picture?(keep in mind, i am not white) I think it would be a fair assumption that many of the people in that photograph didn't murder anyone or pose any direct threat in day-to-day life. Would that make me "naziophobic"? (ie would I be considered a bigot/racist for avoiding bigots/racists?)

Either way, Im done discussing this non-existant issue. Hopefully there'll be more policy discussion instead.
( Last edited by Hawkeye_a; Jun 8, 2016 at 10:01 AM. )
     
Chongo
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Jun 8, 2016, 07:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by Captain Obvious View Post
America didn't.

Hell we didn't even put the dirty krauts in internment camps like the Japanese people born here.
Actually, FDR did order the interment of Italian and German Americans. Wilson ordered German Americans interned during WW I
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intern...rman_Americans
World War II Enemy Alien Control Program Overview
45/47
     
subego
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Jun 8, 2016, 01:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
I only recently became aware of what is in that picture. And i hear what you are saying about sunlight being the best disinfectant , and i totally agree. Thats why the freedom of speech is so very important; Europe and Australia do not have it anymore. (And i agree with your follow up posts as well).

The reason for my question to Subego ....
If I was a person in that time and place in that picture above, would I be considered a bigot/racist for fearing and avoiding the people in that picture?(keep in mind, i am not white) I think it would be a fair assumption that many of the people in that photograph didn't murder anyone or pose any direct threat in day-to-day life. Would that make me "naziophobic"? (ie would I be considered a bigot/racist for avoiding bigots/racists?)

Either way, Im done discussing this non-existant issue. Hopefully there'll be more policy discussion instead.
What constitutes racism or bigotry is a valid question, and it directly applies to the question du jour, which is whether Trump is racist or bigoted.

If you wanted to avoid Nazis in 1940, I'm not going to say you made the wrong choice. The only value in associating with them would be to make attempts at flipping them.

If one wants to avoid Muslims in the here and now, I won't say that's the wrong choice either. I have very little which is nice to say about Islam, while I'm quite fond of Judaism and Jews.

So this is the opinion of someone who is not friendly to Islam. What Trump proposes is in direct opposition to one of this country's founding principles, it would not serve the desired end of keeping out dangerous elements, and, most importantly, it is a box you will not be able to close once opened.

It's only a matter of time before what flies out of that box starts coming for you.
     
subego
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Jun 8, 2016, 02:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
The man lives and breathes stereotypes. See his comments about Jewish accountants. This brings me to another point I was going to make, but I think the term 'racism' suffers from the same drawbacks as 'rape'. People automatically think of the worst case meaning of the term. Trump's not a racist in the sense of someone who uses the n-word, thinks blacks are inferior, etc. He's a racist because he views everyone through a prism of stereotypes. It's the same reason he's a misogynist and xenophobe. Illegal immigrants are rapists, Mexicans love taco bowls, Jews are great to have as accountants, etc. There's probably numerous examples, but I don't have the time to google.
The taco bowl thing was a "**** you" to his critics.

The "illegal immigrants are rapists" thing is my primary example of how he's getting a raw deal. You only can get that if you strip all context from his statements. Is he overselling it? No question... but if we're going to bitch about overselling, why not start with "Trump thinks illegal immigrants are rapists", which is missing some pretty important qualifiers.
     
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Jun 8, 2016, 06:59 PM
 
@Subego
We can continue the discussion in this thread, if you'd like.

Cheers
PS>I appreciate the sincere discussion without the name calling.
     
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Jun 8, 2016, 09:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
The man lives and breathes stereotypes. See his comments about Jewish accountants. This brings me to another point I was going to make, but I think the term 'racism' suffers from the same drawbacks as 'rape'. People automatically think of the worst case meaning of the term. Trump's not a racist in the sense of someone who uses the n-word, thinks blacks are inferior, etc. He's a racist because he views everyone through a prism of stereotypes. It's the same reason he's a misogynist and xenophobe.
Very aptly put.
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subego
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Jun 8, 2016, 10:45 PM
 
He's a troll.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jun 8, 2016, 11:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
He's a troll.
No. He does not get to say racist things and hide behind 'I was just pretending.'



And you if he really was just pretending, getting labeled as a racist because no one can tell is his just reward. You wanna troll an issue that serious? Congrats, we think you meant it.
     
subego
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Jun 9, 2016, 02:09 AM
 
Hey... I'm willing to get shot down here, but it's got to be with specifics.

His stance on immigration is classist as all ****, but it's not racist. I commented on it in my response to the post Oreo commented on.

In the same response I mentioned the taco salad. It's obvious to me that was a tweet you weren't meant to take straight.

Which other thing should I be looking into?


Who says "**** off" to a retard?
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jun 9, 2016, 07:17 AM
 
Yeah, he's a lot of things, but he can only be called a racist if you take everything he says out of context. But then, "racist!" is so abused today, they only term that gets misused more is "misogynist!".
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Jun 9, 2016, 08:30 AM
 
Trump is petitioning to have a federal judge removed from his case because of his heritage. His reasoning is that because the judge is of Mexican heritage, he must be against the wall that Trump is proposing to build at the border, and is therefore going to be biased against Trump. That is, he is assuming a certain opinion based on the persons heritage. That is racism.
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subego
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Jun 9, 2016, 01:01 PM
 
And we go full circle. It's not. It's big crybaby get him a waaaaaamulance.
     
 
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