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TheSpaz · Jul 24, 2005, 06:41 PM

These are the things that Panther does very well... where Tiger does not do so well. Check it out:

1. Dock, Exposé, Finder Scrolling, Icon Snap to Grid, Minimizing is A LOT SMOOTHER.
2. Menus are nice and zippy (if you haven't seen the thread, it's the thing about highlighting menu items in Cocoa apps)
3. I can now print photos wirelessly to my Canon printer via Airport 100% of the time
4. Safari remembers my window position.
5. Searching with file names is faster and no drive indexing!
6. Dashboard is dumb... Panther does not have this memory hog
7. Safari is very unbuggy... no scroll bar abnormalities and glitches
8. Mail doesn't suck... (I don't like the drawer but, Mail seems more reliable than Mail for Tiger)
9. Preview is faster... it seems like it's loading images a lot faster... and you can move images from the drawer without them just disappearing when you drag them off.
10. Preview has a full screen feature... unlike Tiger where you have to go into Slideshow mode for one picture.
11. The whole OS just feels snappier to me
12. Icon spacing isn't as bad as it is in Tiger
13. No spotlight icon in the menubar (woohoo!)
14. The Dock doesn't freeze on me... ever.
15. Saving images from Safari by dragging them to the desktop works better in Panther (For some reason in Tiger... I was having trouble with this... the image wouldn't save and I wouldn't notice until I was already done browsing)
16. Illustrator CS no longer saves .tmp files everywhere for no reason
17. Illustrator 9 files DO NOT open in Acrobat Reader by default (Tiger thinks they are PDFs)
18. Photoshop CS doesn't hang for no apparent reason in Panther
19. System preferences lets you customize the toolbar... Why did they remove this in Tiger?

I could probably come up with more... but, I can't think of any more right now.

msuper69 · Jul 24, 2005, 06:50 PM

This is really starting to get old.

TheSpaz · Jul 24, 2005, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by msuper69

This is really starting to get old.

Well... People kept asking me why I liked Panther so much because for some reason... for everyone else, Tiger runs perfect and nobody has problems with it. I had problems with Tiger and I told people that and they got all on me making me feel like an idiot and one person even called me a noob. I'm just speaking my mind here and I don't feel like very many people are on my side... so this time I decided to actually tell people what areas of Tiger are lacking and how Panther has really been the better choice (for me).

For those of you with Tiger and you love it... all power to you and I'm glad. But, my work is easier in Panther and I thought it should be the opposite since Tiger is supposed to be better.

P.S. Panther is a much cooler name for an OS than Tiger... Tiger just sounds kinda goofy.

OogaBooga · Jul 24, 2005, 07:57 PM

If you want to compare Tiger to Panther, wait for 10.4.9.

Millennium · 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by TheSpaz

1. Dock, Exposé, Finder Scrolling, Icon Snap to Grid, Minimizing is A LOT SMOOTHER.
11. The whole OS just feels snappier to me
12. Icon spacing isn't as bad as it is in Tiger

These seems to be matters of opinion. Tiger seems much smoother and snappier to me on both my G5/1.8x2 and my Ti G4/400: opposite ends of the hardware spectrum as far as Tiger support goes.

2. Menus are nice and zippy (if you haven't seen the thread, it's the thing about highlighting menu items in Cocoa apps)

See above.

3. I can now print photos wirelessly to my Canon printer via Airport 100% of the time

I've got an Epson, but no problems.

4. Safari remembers my window position.
7. Safari is very unbuggy... no scroll bar abnormalities and glitches

Here I will agree with you. I think it's also worth noting that Safari in Panther supports the LABEL tag (which allows such Mac-like behaviors as clicking on a radio or checkbox's label to activate the button) but Safari in Tiger does not.

5. Searching with file names is faster and no drive indexing!

Drive indexing is a Good Thing.

6. Dashboard is dumb... Panther does not have this memory hog

So turn it off. That's what I do, and there's no problem. I don't even have to use third-party placebo apps.

13. No spotlight icon in the menubar (woohoo!)

Opinion, not fact.

14. The Dock doesn't freeze on me... ever.

It doesn't for me either.

16. Illustrator CS no longer saves .tmp files everywhere for no reason
17. Illustrator 9 files DO NOT open in Acrobat Reader by default (Tiger thinks they are PDFs)
18. Photoshop CS doesn't hang for no apparent reason in Panther

These are all Adobe's fault, not Apple's.

19. System preferences lets you customize the toolbar... Why did they remove this in Tiger?

Here, I'll admit to being annoyed. I suppose three out of 19 isn't bad.

fisherKing · Jul 24, 2005, 08:39 PM

i would never go back to panther, but...
my canon also fails; printing just stalls, and i am back to *shudder* a usb hub.
(airport printing worked EVERY time for me in panther).

otherwise, bugs & all, tiger just seems a step forward...

TheSpaz · Jul 24, 2005, 09:06 PM

Well... with Panther installed now... I notice that Exposé is a LOT smoother and so is minimizing and Dock magnification and other animations... It's there... I'm telling you.

Hi I'm Ben · Jul 24, 2005, 09:50 PM

okay, now that you have panther installed, delete your thread. Then your account.

runejoha · Jul 24, 2005, 10:06 PM

Darn, I bought Tiger, but I really didnt need it for my work. (I use mostly console and Unix stuff). With these facts I ditch the Tiger.

Thinine · Jul 24, 2005, 11:29 PM

These aren't facts, these are one idiots inane ramblings about stuff he doesn't understand. If you let it affect your judgment you're an idiot too. All of things he listed are either completely wrong or so miniscule to not even matter.

TheSpaz · Jul 25, 2005, 09:21 AM

I admit some of them are just my opinions but, Panther is mostly faster than Tiger... case closed. Tiger doesn't even have Quartz 2D Extreme... I wonder how long we'll be waiting for that... probably not until Leopard is out.

I'm not going to delete my account... people are allowed to use this forum and as far as I'm concerned I don't abuse it... if you don't like my thread... don't read it and don't reply to it. It sucks being a Mac user when other Mac users call me an idiot and stupid. Thanks guys.

fisherKing · Jul 25, 2005, 09:27 AM

hey, that's what this is...a forum. keep posting your observations!

meanwhile,
as tiger progresses, we will find more to like about it, there will be more enhancements, bug fixes, tweaks...and challenges.

just like in panther, and it's subsequent updates.

airport printing problems notwithstanding, am staying with tiger. no place to go but forward...

Ji Eun · Jul 25, 2005, 09:43 AM

yeah, nothing like opening a folder full of images in panther and waiting for each to render...

one

by

one

Randman · Jul 25, 2005, 09:44 AM

After your 3 billionth post on the subject, we get it. You like Panther better. Good for you. I hope you two live happily ever after. But, why do you insist on making so many threads about it without any empirical evidence other than your observations, which sound suspect?

Take a look at the Tiger/happy poll. The majority of the people seem to be quite happy with Tiger. I just have to wonder if all your ranting and near-trolling is to convince us that Panther is better than Tiger (which it isn't comparing 10.4.2 with 10.3.9 or 10.4.2 with 10.3.2), or perhaps you keep beating a dead horse to convince yourself that you made the correct choice in reverting.

moonmonkey · Jul 25, 2005, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by TheSpaz

I admit some of them are just my opinions but, Panther is mostly faster than Tiger... case closed.

Just not true.

Tiger is faster for me at doing everything except fast user switching (which I don't use).

I installed Tiger and got a big "wow" with the speed increase

There is something wrong with your install.

mAxximo · Jul 25, 2005, 10:24 AM

Nice to read about your experience even if I don't share some of your points.
Much nicer and a lot less annoying than the usual fanboi patrol ganging up on you for —oh, GOD!— not loving Tiger.
Some people just can't keep quiet.

OogaBooga · Jul 25, 2005, 11:04 AM

It'll make him feel at ease if we support his decision, so...

Good job Spaz! You know, if a setup is working for you perfectly, why ever upgrade? I'm still using an Apple ][ and it runs like a beast!

</sarcasm>

Spaz, people don't always write perfect code. The more code written, the higher chance for bugs. Developers depend on people like YOU to test out the new software and report on it. It doesn't help Apple if only 20% of their users make it to Tiger. The more people that use Tiger, the faster the bugs will get reported and squashed, which will then make it into future releases of OS X.

TheSpaz · Jul 25, 2005, 12:21 PM

I reported my bugs... and 10.4.2 came and went and almost none of them were fixed... so I had to go back to Panther.

fisherKing · Jul 25, 2005, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by TheSpaz

I reported my bugs... and 10.4.2 came and went and almost none of them were fixed... so I had to go back to Panther.

did you, by any chance, consider backing everything up and doing a clean install?

anyway, your choice is reasonable enough.
the other route, not always easy, is to find workarounds, and wait for a fix (for example, i've gone back to *shudder* usb for printing, until airport printing works for me in 10.4, as it did in panther).

the benefits in moving forward aren't always obvious; but, for me at least, it's worth it.

good luck!

tuqqer · Jul 25, 2005, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Thinine

These aren't facts, these are one idiots inane ramblings about stuff he doesn't understand. If you let it affect your judgment you're an idiot too.

You must make your parents proud with cruel statements like this.

"Elite Member." Ha. If I was MacNN, I'd call it "Embarrassing Member."

MartiNZ · Jul 25, 2005, 04:26 PM

I've got one: Panther's Preview.app allowed you to just view page numbers/names in the drawer, without the thumbnails, which oft made things faster and easier - this seems no longer possible with Tiger's Preview.app.

Uhh ... more? Well I suppose yes Safari did remember its window position better. Oh, and iCal kept the right date in the dock after quitting.

But I think I'm done - can't think of any more ... hang on - Word never crashed under Panther, but then again it hasn't for me since 10.4.2 either. Maybe they secretly included an update for the Office apps in the realisation that MS never will

.

But I'm enjoying using Dashboard, and haven't noticed it sucking up RAM. Spotlight is much more useful for my purposes than any iteration of Finder's 'Find', but I only use the menu, I do think it needs some work - just making it an app with some options would be nice for a start - and I agree with those who say that Tiger's Finder 'Find' is stupid responding to each keystroke! But those are isolated Tiger things not things that Panther did better really ... which goes for most things in my experience

.

runejoha · Jul 25, 2005, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by Thinine

These aren't facts, these are one idiots inane ramblings about stuff he doesn't understand. If you let it affect your judgment you're an idiot too. All of things he listed are either completely wrong or so miniscule to not even matter.

No, I am not influenced by one man's statements, and I am quite familiar with most known OSes. I only have this feeling, including feedback on this forum, that Tiger is not really ready yet and that Panter works better for most things. I guess these problems are corrected in near future and that Tiger over time becomes a OS that can be trusted.

BTW - your feedback is very hard. To be critical to OS X is not a crime, and even tough Apple has suceeded to brainwash some people in their "religion", there are no wrong in asking questions.

yukon · Jul 25, 2005, 06:02 PM

I don't like the personal comments, two more for the ignore list in any case. Not that I mean to ignore anyone, I just value my time. I only see two threads started by TheSpaz, a new thread would be excessive but these two are different enough to justify two.

Anyway. I found Spotlight to be slow and unnecessary (for *me* and *my* G4) so I disabled it, and away went any basic file searching, so I don't have that. I now get "permission denied" as root when copying files from DVDs I own, that might not be 10.4 but a HW upgrade, it happened at the same time. Mouse-wheel scrolling is now erratic, a single wheel notch-stop brings me a page downward and subsequent stops are normal, so I lose track of whatever I was reading. My side mouse buttons sometimes just stop working alltogether unless I restart (no usboverdrive installed). On boot-up the G4 stays at the grey apple for the longest time, then zips through the progress bar....it may be faster than Panther (I don't know), but I thought it had stalled the first time, there's a lot less feedback about whats happening or loading. Having problems compiling things, many developer examples are now broken (simpletext (without modification), hexedit...) and the GCC v4.b/4.0 and new SDKs are variables to me that make it more difficult to find a working configuration for any specific project (I'm not a developer). Stuffit Expander had some sort of problem, but screw alladin. Safari isn't improved (speed and UI multithreading) and I had hoped it would be. Haven't had problems with Photoshop but I don't use it a lot on the G4. I'm still on 10.4, probably won't go back to 10.3, but I've found issues that would make some people revert to the previous version, so thespaz has a point.

Millennium · Jul 25, 2005, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by runejoha

No, I am not influenced by one man's statements, and I am quite familiar with most known OSes. I only have this feeling, including feedback on this forum, that Tiger is not really ready yet and that Panter works better for most things. I guess these problems are corrected in near future and that Tiger over time becomes a OS that can be trusted.

It is not a good idea to use this forum as a representative sample of Mac users as a whole. We're a support forum; people come here when they have problems. It's what we're here for. As a result, a vastly-disproportionate number of people here are having problems with OSX, because if they weren't then they wouldn't be here.

The fact is, for the great majority of people, Tiger is faster and more stable than anything which has come before. TheSpaz's situation is very unusual, but in his frustration he is trying to project his problems onto the userbase as a while. This is, perhaps, understandable, but that doesn't make it correct.

TheSpaz: If you're going to say "case closed", as though your statements were fact, then show me the numbers to back it up. If you can't show me numbers, then you're just blowing smoke, because if what you say is fact then the numbers do exist. Go get them.

TheSpaz · Jul 25, 2005, 08:07 PM

What do you mean by numbers? I'm talking about mostly user experience problems rather than bugs and glitches. Some things that were changed in Tiger were done on purpose (not a bug) that I don't particulary agree on. I'll keep on checking Tiger to see if it gets better (which it probably will) and if it does... I may upgrade to Tiger again and leave Panther in the dust (Afterall, I did PAY for Tiger).

Randman · Jul 25, 2005, 09:46 PM

But the majority of people on this forum seem to have a mostly positive experience with Tiger. You said plain and simple earlier: Panther is faster than Tiger.

It's not that you had some problems with Tiger, it's your blanket statements that Panther is better. Most people will disagree with you and are likely to call you on it for making statements without an ounce of proof.

Furthermore, I don't remember reading any posts of yours where you said you tried to correct the issue. Did you ever do a reinstall? Ever do a clean install? Ever create a new user account and see if some of the issues have been fixed? If you didn't, then it could very well be a case of operator error and not OS error.

There's a bit on Think Secret about 10.4.3 and some of the fixes.

But, if you are happy with Panther, be happy with it. but creating a number of threads on "Panther rules over Tiger" is plain silly and it makes you come across as a bit infantile and not very OS X-savvy.

budster101 · Jul 25, 2005, 09:55 PM

I love Panther, but I don't have Tiger yet, so it's just better than Jaquar as far as I'm concerned.

Person Man · Jul 26, 2005, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Randman

There's a bit on Think Secret about 10.4.3 and some of the fixes.

The problem is that some of the "fixes" he wants aren't really "bugs" in the first place.

TheSpaz · Jul 26, 2005, 02:13 PM

Yeah... exactly... I want speed and performance fixes... not necessarliy bugs but, annoyances in the way they changed the user experience a bit.

I think Panther's graphics are faster... honestly.

Jerommeke · Jul 26, 2005, 02:39 PM

20. iCal can no longer be used to give an appointment a status (confirmed, for example).

Thinine · Jul 26, 2005, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by TheSpaz

Yeah... exactly... I want speed and performance fixes... not necessarliy bugs but, annoyances in the way they changed the user experience a bit.

I think Panther's graphics are faster... honestly.

Then you're seeing things. Tigers graphics are faster in every way. There is no situation in which Panther will be faster. This is especially true if you have a G4/G5 and/or a newer video card. And it will be even more true once Apple enables Q2DX by default.

Chuckit · Jul 26, 2005, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by TheSpaz

Yeah... exactly... I want speed and performance fixes... not necessarliy bugs but, annoyances in the way they changed the user experience a bit.

I think Panther's graphics are faster... honestly.

Are you still on about the stupid menu thing?

TheSpaz · Jul 26, 2005, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by Thinine

Then you're seeing things. Tigers graphics are faster in every way. There is no situation in which Panther will be faster. This is especially true if you have a G4/G5 and/or a newer video card. And it will be even more true once Apple enables Q2DX by default.

Listen to this. I don't have the fastest computer on the market. I don't have a G5 okay? On the G5s at work the graphics are fast (except for the menus... sorry). I have a PowerBook G4 1GHz with 768MB of RAM and only 32MB of VRAM. With this configuration, Panther performs better in the graphics area than Tiger... I'm sorry but, it's true... You won't notice any difference on a 1.8GHz G5... that's all I'm saying.

Millennium · Jul 26, 2005, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by TheSpaz

Listen to this. I don't have the fastest computer on the market. I don't have a G5 okay? On the G5s at work the graphics are fast (except for the menus... sorry). I have a PowerBook G4 1GHz with 768MB of RAM and only 32MB of VRAM. With this configuration, Panther performs better in the graphics area than Tiger... I'm sorry but, it's true... You won't notice any difference on a 1.8GHz G5... that's all I'm saying.

I have a much slower PowerBook than you do, and yet from all I've been able to tell Tiger's graphics are faster than Panther's.

You may want to check out VGG's Let1kWindowsBloom. As a benchmark, it's crude but effective: open and close 1000 windows. Assuming that the actual background code for handling windows as objects hasn't changed much, almost all of the processor time of this app will go towards graphics. For the record, my Ti/400 did it in 42 seconds with Tiger. Going back to Panther to check is going to be troublesome; I'm out of town next week or I'd do it this weekend. However, here's a case where you can show me some basic numbers.

TheSpaz · Jul 26, 2005, 10:58 PM

I'm not interested in how fast a window can open and close... I'm interested in framerates. The Dock is choppy to me, minimizing is choppy, Exposé is choppy, icon snapping is choppy, menus are choppy... this is just from my experience... Now that I'm back in Panther... everythings working great again.

I did an Erase and Install of Tiger
I've tried troubleshooting it
Other people noticed the same things when I talked to them on AIM. It's not just me.

As I said before... it's not very noticable on a G5 system.

Don Pickett · Jul 26, 2005, 11:00 PM

What can Panther do that Tiger can't?

Lock up the finder for 30 seconds redrawing a window showing a directory on the server, because Panther used coarse grain thread locking in the Finder.

Maflynn · Jul 27, 2005, 07:13 AM

First things first I'm running tiger on a 15" 1.25GHz PB with 768meg of memory and a G5 2.0 Rev b. with 1 gig. With that said I can respond.

1. Dock, Exposé, Finder Scrolling, Icon Snap to Grid, Minimizing is A LOT SMOOTHER.

Tiger appears to be smoother on my machines.

2. Menus are nice and zippy (if you haven't seen the thread, it's the thing about highlighting menu items in Cocoa apps)

Ditto, I have not noticed any slowing with my menus.

5. Searching with file names is faster and no drive indexing!

I don't use the spotlight a lot or to its fullest potential, but its finding more stuff quicker. For what its worth, but Panther and tiger needed to index the drive before the searching could be considered zippy

6. Dashboard is dumb... Panther does not have this memory hog

First this thread is what Panther can that Tiger cannot... so this point shouldn't even be in the thread. Anyways here's my $.02
I wouldn't call it dumb, unnecessary, even bloatware yes but not dumb. Some of the widgets are cool. As for a memory hog, not using them means there not in memory so that argument really doesn't hold water.

7. Safari is very unbuggy... no scroll bar abnormalities and glitches
8. Mail doesn't suck... (I don't like the drawer but, Mail seems more reliable than Mail for Tiger)
9. Preview is faster... it seems like it's loading images a lot faster... and you can move images from the drawer without them just disappearing when you drag them off.
10. Preview has a full screen feature... unlike Tiger where you have to go into Slideshow mode for one picture.
11. The whole OS just feels snappier to me

I'll hit all of these all at once. I find tiger to be faster, and I have not noticed any abnormalities in tiger. Actually the opposite, running panther I'd get artifacts in safari, so its actually working better - go figure

I'm gonig to stop here because this list isn't an unbiased list but rather someone's personal experience. Your other threads have shown that your exerperince while unfortuniate is not the norm. Most people have had a very pleasent upgrade to tiger and have no complaints. I'm one of them, Tiger is running on a older (but not too old) powerbook and a fairly new (little over a yr) G5 and in both cases tiger is much better, even when tiger is at 10.4.2 vs. the last panther update.

Instead of complaing at how bad tiger is and how great panther is why not just reformat and reload panther?

Mike

qnxde · Jul 27, 2005, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by TheSpaz

Well... People kept asking me why I liked Panther so much because for some reason... for everyone else, Tiger runs perfect and nobody has problems with it. I had problems with Tiger and I told people that and they got all on me making me feel like an idiot and one person even called me a noob. I'm just speaking my mind here and I don't feel like very many people are on my side... so this time I decided to actually tell people what areas of Tiger are lacking and how Panther has really been the better choice (for me).

For those of you with Tiger and you love it... all power to you and I'm glad. But, my work is easier in Panther and I thought it should be the opposite since Tiger is supposed to be better.

P.S. Panther is a much cooler name for an OS than Tiger... Tiger just sounds kinda goofy.

d.fine · Jul 27, 2005, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by OogaBooga

If you want to compare Tiger to Panther, wait for 10.4.9.

Amen! End of discussion!

Millennium · Jul 27, 2005, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by TheSpaz

I'm not interested in how fast a window can open and close... I'm interested in framerates.

Certainly, but these things aren't unrelated. Besides, you complain about the Dock being choppy; the app's icon will continue to bounce while the graphics system is being put under load from all the windows. This will give you some opportunity to give that another look.
The Dock is choppy to me, minimizing is choppy, Exposé is choppy, icon snapping is choppy, menus are choppy... this is just from my experience... Now that I'm back in Panther... everythings working great again.[/quote]
I'm not noticing any choppiness, and I'm on a Ti/400; a machine which should by all accounts be much slower than yours. Are you sure that everything's all right with your installation?

Other people noticed the same things when I talked to them on AIM. It's not just me.

Some other people on AIM, huh? How many? Where'd you find them; another support forum? This tells me nothing except that whatever is wrong with your install, it can apparently be reproduced. This is a Good Thing, because it means that there's a clear cause, and therefore a clear fix. Finding out what these are is the next step. Categorically declaring Tiger as sucky is not.

As I said before... it's not very noticable on a G5 system.

Indeed not, but I'm not noticing anything terrible on one of the oldest machines that OSX supports. Is it slower? Of course it is. But I'm certainly not seeing choppy animation.

TheSpaz · Jul 27, 2005, 11:39 AM

There's nothing wrong with my install... rest assure of that. I've installed Tiger a few times now (Erase and Install) and I have NO third party haxies or 3rd party Apps running in the background (even my Dashboard widgets are Apple stock).

There is a noticable difference in computer graphics performance between Panther and Tiger and that's not the only advantage of Tiger... it's just one of the main reasons why I don't like using Tiger... it feels slower to me and there's nothing wrong with my install... I also checked out a few Macs at the Apple store and noticed the same drop in framerates.

There's nothing wrong with me... it's the computer.

Randman · Jul 27, 2005, 12:22 PM

Maybe it is your computer because – for the vast majority of people here – it's certainly not the OS.

ApeInTheShell · Jul 27, 2005, 02:49 PM

Here ya go buddy bear:
http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/compare.html

Maflynn · Jul 27, 2005, 05:40 PM

Nice link that summarizes the differences pretty well.