[smileyscout]

REMOVED at request of channel creator

[danman]

Elite hackers? hahaha...

[alphasubzero949]

Elite?

[:dragonflypro:]

As far as I know, the DRM is not even in place.

I am not sure this is that big of a thing…

Nice catch though.

T

[ghporter]

As of just now, the OSx86 site is down due to "heavy load on the server." Hmmm. Looks like a lot of people want to be able to run OSX on x86 hardware. I'm one-if Steve would let me disavow any support from Apple and sell me a x86-native copy, I'd buy it NOW.

[osxisfun]

Elite hackers?

Oh you mean dipshit copyright infringers?

[ghporter]

I would be very interested-which is why I even tried to look at the site-to see how they managed to FIND the x86 OS to mess with. As I've said, I'd like to be able to run OS X on my PC hardware, but I would certainly not condone stealing it. Note that in my previous post I said "I'd buy it NOW." (emphasis added). I'm also interested in seeing if any action is taken against this group, and any other, future group that messes with the x86 version of Tiger. Does Apple think this is a problem, or does Apple dismiss these hackers as scum?

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by osxisfun

Elite hackers?

Oh you mean dipshit copyright infringers?

How are they infringing on a copyright? It's not like they're redistributing the x86 OS X dev release, they using it for development purposes which is what the dev release was intended for.

[Chuckit]

But they are not licensed to make copies and run them on other computers, are they? The dev release was intended to be run on the dev kits, which were meant to be returned to Apple when the Intel OS version was released. Think they'll be returning that laptop to Apple as well?

(I don't really care about the copyright infringement. The RIAA and Hollywood have taken all the criminality out of it with their crying wolf. I'm just sayin'.)

[gururafiki]

There is this great photo editing program called Photoshop....

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by ghporter

I would be very interested-which is why I even tried to look at the site-to see how they managed to FIND the x86 OS to mess with. As I've said, I'd like to be able to run OS X on my PC hardware, but I would certainly not condone stealing it. Note that in my previous post I said "I'd buy it NOW." (emphasis added). I'm also interested in seeing if any action is taken against this group, and any other, future group that messes with the x86 version of Tiger. Does Apple think this is a problem, or does Apple dismiss these hackers as scum?

I'm also very interested in this. I'm planning on selling my G5 and building a gaming PC. I was trying to decide whether I then wanted to dual-boot Linux so that I wouldn't have to use Windows all the time or get a mac mini or something (don't really want to buy a new mac until I can get an x86 PowerBook). If I could run OS X on that PC in the meantime that would be a vastly superior option in my opinion. I would have no problem with paying a premium to run the OS on my own hardware. I pay, and will continue to pay, a premium to run it on Apple's hardware as it is.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by :dragonflypro:

As far as I know, the DRM is not even in place.

I am not sure this is that big of a thing…

Nice catch though.

T

The DRM is in place, Rosetta makes periodic checks to the hardware to ensure that it's one of Apple's dev machines. As parts of the GUI haven't been ported to x86 yet this effectively restricts the entire OS to Apple's dev machines.

I have this not only from the OSx86 guys, but also from Apple employees.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

But they are not licensed to make copies and run them on other computers, are they? The dev release was intended to be run on the dev kits, which were meant to be returned to Apple when the Intel OS version was released. Think they'll be returning that laptop to Apple as well?

(I don't really care about the copyright infringement. The RIAA and Hollywood have taken all the criminality out of it with their crying wolf. I'm just sayin'.)

I don't have the license as I didn't want to pay the money to get a dev machine (well, I did, but I decided it wasn't worth it) so I don't really know what it says. But by getting those dev machines from Apple was giving them the software and hardware to play around with the OS. There's no way Apple didn't expect people to do this, and there's no way Apple expected any restrictive licensing to actually stop this from happening.

I don't see any (moral) problem with what they're doing, and if I can I'm going to try and install OS X on my Thinkpad. It's going to get replaced with an x86 PowerBook in the relatively near future anyway so it's not like Apple will be losing any money off me doing this.

[rickey939]

[brapper]

or, "Full Screen VNC Users"

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by nonhuman

I don't have the license as I didn't want to pay the money to get a dev machine (well, I did, but I decided it wasn't worth it) so I don't really know what it says. But by getting those dev machines from Apple was giving them the software and hardware to play around with the OS. There's no way Apple didn't expect people to do this, and there's no way Apple expected any restrictive licensing to actually stop this from happening.

Just like stores that don't keep their junk behind lock and key surely expect some shoplifting, but don't necessarily approve of it?

[osxisfun]

Becuase they are not authorized to do what they are doing. That copy of OSX for intel is expressly for the dev mules. Prob. breaks their dev agreement too.

>I don't see any (moral) problem

Rspectfully... so what if you do or do not have a "moral" problem with it.

You are breaking copyright law and infringing on apple's intellectual property rights by doing the above.

If i don't find anything "imoral" about robbing from the rich and giving to the poor and do something about it, you will not here from me any more as I'll be in lock up.

and for the record... do you honestly think these guys are not going to give copies to a "friend" or two?

yah right.

[cleanup]

I used to have that same laptop! The Dell Inspiron 8200. I had 640 MB of RAM though, and even Windows ran slow, so Mac OS X Tiger would run like a snail crawling through the desert on that laptop... The thing took minutes to shut down, and had a battery life of about an hour (max).

I figure: take screenshots of Mac running OS X, edit with Photoshop, view fullscreen on Dell laptop, take photos.

Furthermore, the video card in that laptop runs at a resolution of 1400 x 1050 - otherwise it will look like crap. The screenshots are at 1024 x 768.

[osxrules]

Yeah, I was going to say that about just taking screenshots of OS X and viewing fullscreen on a Dell.

I reckon someone will crack the DRM eventually. True hackers/crackers will not sleep until they break it just to get the recognition.

They cracked CSS encryption, AAC DRM and I'm sure though this might take longer, it will happen.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by cleanup

I used to have that same laptop! The Dell Inspiron 8200. I had 640 MB of RAM though, and even Windows ran slow, so Mac OS X Tiger would run like a snail crawling through the desert on that laptop... The thing took minutes to shut down, and had a battery life of about an hour (max).

I figure: take screenshots of Mac running OS X, edit with Photoshop, view fullscreen on Dell laptop, take photos.

Furthermore, the video card in that laptop runs at a resolution of 1400 x 1050 - otherwise it will look like crap. The screenshots are at 1024 x 768.

My 8200, which has a 2GHz processor, runs quite quickly; Windows XP is nicely fast on my machine. Further, there is nothing wrong with using anything less than the default, physical resolution of the screen-I run mine at 1280X1040 and it is sharp, crisp, and brilliant. With a single battery, it runs for over three hours, and with both bays filled with battery it runs for almost 6 hours I think that your machine had a ton of Dell-provided gunk that you didn't need (I wiped the drive and loaded only the OS and the apps I wanted), which would definitely slow anything down to a crawl. You're not giving that machine enough credit.

With the fastest CPU Dell put in the 8200 and a full compliment of RAM (I think it maxes out at 2GB), it should be very capable of emulation when needed, and it should definitely be a good candidate for an x86 OS X platform.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Just like stores that don't keep their junk behind lock and key surely expect some shoplifting, but don't necessarily approve of it?

Yes, like the Apple stores, for example. They have a huge amount of merchandise get stolen every day and they just eat the costs. It's the cost of doing business.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by osxisfun

Becuase they are not authorized to do what they are doing. That copy of OSX for intel is expressly for the dev mules. Prob. breaks their dev agreement too.

It's the nature of computer geeks to experiment, try to understand how things work, and then try to overcome limitations. Apple, and every other software company out there that gives out previews of their software does so knowing that people will try and hack the hell out of that software to make it do things it wasn't intended to do. Regardless of their licensing agreements or even the law.

Rspectfully... so what if you do or do not have a "moral" problem with it.

I was just trying to make my position clear...

You are breaking copyright law and infringing on apple's intellectual property rights by doing the above.

It may be breaking the law, but frankly I consider that immaterial. No one gets hurt by people playing around with their computers and trying to see what they can make it do beyond what it was designed to do. In fact it's people doing exactly that that advances the computer industry and leads to the sorts of innovations that make Apple what it is. Legal or not, this is not a bad thing.

If i don't find anything "imoral" about robbing from the rich and giving to the poor and do something about it, you will not here from me any more as I'll be in lock up.

Do you really fail to see the difference between a little computer hacking and stealing physical assets? Apple loses nothing by people doing this. Especially not with the dev version which probably uses different TPM than the release version will.

and for the record... do you honestly think these guys are not going to give copies to a "friend" or two?

yah right.

Of course they will. Do you really think that pirated copies of OS X 10.4.0 are really going to damage Apple's profit margins?

[Helmling]

It was only a matter of time.

Everyone knows OS X will run on regular PC's in the near future...that's why anyone with a brain in the Linux community is scared.

[OogaBooga]

Originally Posted by nonhuman

Yes, like the Apple stores, for example. They have a huge amount of merchandise get stolen every day and they just eat the costs. It's the cost of doing business.

How do you know Apple Stores get stolen from every day?

[kcmac]

Here's Dvoraks conspiracy theory posted today.

[runejoha]

Originally Posted by alphasubzero949

Elite?

Why this respons? I believe it is a difficult task to achieve, and they probably deserves a "title" elite hackers. OS X x86 is designed to owrk with apple main boards, not on DELL computers.

[runejoha]

Originally Posted by Helmling

It was only a matter of time.

Everyone knows OS X will run on regular PC's in the near future...that's why anyone with a brain in the Linux community is scared.

Not really. For instance, IBM and Intel have invested a lot of resources into making the Linux kernel a solid platform for their development tools/apps/environments. OS X is not close to compete with some of Linux's qualitites due to its focus on the end users. OS X is propably not going to support the IA64 architecture etc. Furthermore, the OS X Terminal isn't close to compete with Linux.

These are examples for why the Linux community can relax, even tough they may loose some "end users" to the OS X. Because, OS X is a BSD OS where you have lost most of your freedom compared to BSD/Linux. That said, I do like OS X for several tasks. My point is that Linux is far better for some usage, and the opposite.

[runejoha]

Originally Posted by nonhuman

It's the nature of computer geeks to experiment, try to understand how things work, and then try to overcome limitations. Apple, and every other software company out there that gives out previews of their software does so knowing that people will try and hack the hell out of that software to make it do things it wasn't intended to do. Regardless of their licensing agreements or even the law.



I was just trying to make my position clear...



It may be breaking the law, but frankly I consider that immaterial. No one gets hurt by people playing around with their computers and trying to see what they can make it do beyond what it was designed to do. In fact it's people doing exactly that that advances the computer industry and leads to the sorts of innovations that make Apple what it is. Legal or not, this is not a bad thing.



Do you really fail to see the difference between a little computer hacking and stealing physical assets? Apple loses nothing by people doing this. Especially not with the dev version which probably uses different TPM than the release version will.



Of course they will. Do you really think that pirated copies of OS X 10.4.0 are really going to damage Apple's profit margins?

Actually, this is a part of Apples marketing. This is free attention, marketing, commerical. Of course everybody knew this was going to happen, long before they decided to switch architectures.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by runejoha

Why this respons? I believe it is a difficult task to achieve, and they probably deserves a "title" elite hackers. OS X x86 is designed to owrk with apple main boards, not on DELL computers.

Oh, I can run VNC on Dell computers quite easily.

[Graymalkin]

If you think the people pirating the Intel betas will stop with the betas you're deluding yourself or stupid. Everything learned pirating the betas will be used to pirate the retail copies when they're released. Piracy of the OS on PowerPC Macs isn't a really big problem for Apple because there's a relatively small pool of people that will do it and they've already bought the Mac hardware to run the OS. That's what Apple wants to sell them. Even Tiger's 2 million copies sold is a drop in the bucket compared to the money made on hardware.

People being able to pirate Tiger-x86 means real lost money for Apple because these are people not buying Macs. They don't help cover the development costs of new machines or software, they don't increase the Mac's potential software market, and they can damage the Mac's reputation. If the only way to get MacOS is to buy a Mac, people wanting the benefits of the OS will buy a Mac. There will be little reason not to when they're running similar hardware to equivalent PCs. If the OS is widely pirated the need to buy Macs will diminish. They'll do with OSX like they do with Windows, build a cheapo whitebox PC and slap a pirated OS on it to end up with a $300 computer (including software). Folks that would replace their virus ridden PC with a Mac mini or some such will instead get the local computer geek to "fix" their PC with a pirated copy of MacOS.

[msuper69]

Originally Posted by nonhuman

I don't have the license as I didn't want to pay the money to get a dev machine (well, I did, but I decided it wasn't worth it) so I don't really know what it says. But by getting those dev machines from Apple was giving them the software and hardware to play around with the OS. There's no way Apple didn't expect people to do this, and there's no way Apple expected any restrictive licensing to actually stop this from happening.

I don't see any (moral) problem with what they're doing, and if I can I'm going to try and install OS X on my Thinkpad. It's going to get replaced with an x86 PowerBook in the relatively near future anyway so it's not like Apple will be losing any money off me doing this.

If the shoe was on the other foot, you'd be singing a different tune.

What if you had spent a few years developing a killer app and everyone started pirating it. Are you saying you would be ok with that? What if you depended on the income to live on?

What those dodos are doing is wrong, morally, ethically and legally. There's no question about it.

[msuper69]

wrong button pushed.

[threestain]

If Apple no longer have the killer app of OS X to sell their machines, people won't buy them. The majority of PCs in the world aren't slick Vaios and PBooks, they;re cheap, rubbish, beige boxes of death that are bought for tuppence and consequently work as well as a penny whistle in an orchestra. People aren't going to be impressed by OS X on that.

[leperkuhn]

Originally Posted by msuper69

If the shoe was on the other foot, you'd be singing a different tune.

What if you had spent a few years developing a killer app and everyone started pirating it. Are you saying you would be ok with that? What if you depended on the income to live on?

What those dodos are doing is wrong, morally, ethically and legally. There's no question about it.

That's one of the reasons Windows became so popular...

And yes, if I developed a killer app, I'd deliberately make sure it was pirated, as long as I wasn't completely broke, homeless and hungry as a result. It has a great long term effect - mindshare. The more people know about your product, the better off you are.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by OogaBooga

How do you know Apple Stores get stolen from every day?

Because I know people who work at them.

A couple days ago a guy walked into the Emeryville Apple Store which is currently very understaffed. He had the girl at the desk walk into the back to check if something was in stock then just walked behind the country took out a big bag, stuffed it full of ~20 iPods, and walked out.

Obviously that's a pretty extreme case, but things do get stolen all the time.

[nonhuman]

[QUOTE=Graymalkin]If you think the people pirating the Intel betas will stop with the betas you're deluding yourself or stupid. Everything learned pirating the betas will be used to pirate the retail copies when they're released. Piracy of the OS on PowerPC Macs isn't a really big problem for Apple because there's a relatively small pool of people that will do it and they've already bought the Mac hardware to run the OS. That's what Apple wants to sell them. Even Tiger's 2 million copies sold is a drop in the bucket compared to the money made on hardware.[/quote[

Of course they will, just like they pirate the PPC versions of Mac OS. But I can almost guarantee you that the release version will use a different method of hardware authentication than the developer version so all the work that's been done will have to be done over. The current TPM implementation in the dev version is pretty half-assed, and the motherboards being used in the dev machines are not the motherboards that will be in the release machines.

People being able to pirate Tiger-x86 means real lost money for Apple because these are people not buying Macs. They don't help cover the development costs of new machines or software, they don't increase the Mac's potential software market, and they can damage the Mac's reputation. If the only way to get MacOS is to buy a Mac, people wanting the benefits of the OS will buy a Mac. There will be little reason not to when they're running similar hardware to equivalent PCs. If the OS is widely pirated the need to buy Macs will diminish. They'll do with OSX like they do with Windows, build a cheapo whitebox PC and slap a pirated OS on it to end up with a $300 computer (including software). Folks that would replace their virus ridden PC with a Mac mini or some such will instead get the local computer geek to "fix" their PC with a pirated copy of MacOS.

I think you're over-estimating how many people will pirate OS X to use on their generic boxes rather than buying Apple machines. For one, most people want a computer to work as a unit. They go to the store, they buy it, they bring it home, and it works. These are the people who, in surprising numbers, actually throw their computers away and buy new ones to get rid of spyware and viruses rather than just wiping the hard drive. Most people don't really understand the hardware/software distinction. They think of a computer as a computer. This machine runs OS X, that machine runs Windows. If the computer gets a virus, to them, the hardware is just as bad as the software.

Even for the people who do understand the distinction, this won't be as attractive as you think it will be. For one, installing OS X on generic PC hardware is not going to be a simple issue of booting off the DVD and running the installer. There's going to need to be some sort of workaround to convince the installer that it's installing onto official Apple hardware. Basically, there's going to need to be some other piece of software that runs simultaneously and pretends to be whatever chip on the motherboard it is that lets the OS know it's an Apple machine. It's not going to be a process that your average user wants to go through.

So the only people who are left are the geeks. The people that not only understand computers, but are willing to jump through hoops to get a computer to do what they want. And yes, some of these people will undoubtedly pirate OS X to run on their home-built computers. But it's a much smaller segment of the population than you think. And some of those geeks, like me, would be perfectly willing to buy OS X and then jump through those hoops to get it running on our own hardware. In fact I'd be much more willing to buy OS X in those circumstances than I would be to run it on Apple hardware.

This simply isn't going to be the huge problem that you think it is. And if you think Apple hasn't already thought of all these possibilities and taken steps to deal with them as they see fit you're wrong.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by msuper69

If the shoe was on the other foot, you'd be singing a different tune.

What if you had spent a few years developing a killer app and everyone started pirating it. Are you saying you would be ok with that? What if you depended on the income to live on?

What those dodos are doing is wrong, morally, ethically and legally. There's no question about it.

What if I had? It's not like I've never had my property stolen before. It didn't bother me then, it wouldn't bother me in this case. Software is not property. No matter how much people want it to be, it just isn't. And I say this as some one who does make a living off of the code I write (among other things).

Obviously we have different moral values.

[Agent69]

Actually it is, just not tangible property. That is what copyright does.

[threestain]

its intellectual property, like films and books and other ideas (as a dvd isn't in fact the major property - the idea behind it is)

[nonhuman]

Yes, I understand the concept of intellectual property. I just disagree with it.

[Angus_D]

Originally Posted by leperkuhn

That's one of the reasons Windows became so popular...

And yes, if I developed a killer app, I'd deliberately make sure it was pirated, as long as I wasn't completely broke, homeless and hungry as a result. It has a great long term effect - mindshare. The more people know about your product, the better off you are.

You clearly have no experience of the software business. Perhaps you should consider that those who do might know better than you - it's not just that they're all greedy pigs.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by threestain

If Apple no longer have the killer app of OS X to sell their machines, people won't buy them. The majority of PCs in the world aren't slick Vaios and PBooks, they;re cheap, rubbish, beige boxes of death that are bought for tuppence and consequently work as well as a penny whistle in an orchestra. People aren't going to be impressed by OS X on that.

People who build crap PC boxes will certainly not spring for OS X. People who build quality computers with quality parts will put in the time and effort to make it worth while to use a high-quality OS on their computers. Not every PC is crap...like the one I'm using right now.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by ghporter

People who build crap PC boxes will certainly not spring for OS X. People who build quality computers with quality parts will put in the time and effort to make it worth while to use a high-quality OS on their computers. Not every PC is crap...like the one I'm using right now.

However, Windows is more expensive than OS X, and people who pirate Windows are just as likely to pirate OS X.

[Chuckit]

And people who pirate Windows are legion. That's why Microsoft led the charge in this activation bull.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by goMac

However, Windows is more expensive than OS X, and people who pirate Windows are just as likely to pirate OS X.

Yes, but Windows is easy to install on any cheapo PC you want to build. Mac OS X will be hard to install on any PC (Mac) that isn't made by Apple.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by nonhuman

Yes, but Windows is easy to install on any cheapo PC you want to build. Mac OS X will be hard to install on any PC (Mac) that isn't made by Apple.

Of course you're already dealing with people who have built a PC, and potentially cracked Windows to run on it. In due course it will probably be just as easy to crack OS X. Look at XPostFacto here on the Mac side.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by nonhuman

What if I had? It's not like I've never had my property stolen before. It didn't bother me then, it wouldn't bother me in this case. Software is not property. No matter how much people want it to be, it just isn't. And I say this as some one who does make a living off of the code I write (among other things).

Obviously we have different moral values.

What software have you written? I'd really like to know.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by goMac

Of course you're already dealing with people who have built a PC, and potentially cracked Windows to run on it. In due course it will probably be just as easy to crack OS X. Look at XPostFacto here on the Mac side.

There are now step by step instruction up on the web for installing OS X on any old PC (including AMDs). Read through them, it's not something that just anyone is going to do.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

What software have you written? I'd really like to know.

Nothing you would have used. All my stuff (so far) has been internal to the company.

[Chuckit]

So your company stole your software? How on earth do you steal software that isn't on the market?