[macmonkey]

Top Gear pretty much says it all, and adding a bigger engine without a whole lot of handling work is just going to make it worse. I like my cars to turn.

My SL may not be able to beat this thing on the track, but it gets a lot more eyeballs on the street, and handles beautifully, along with a top notch interior and driving experience. I've only taken my SL over 120Mph twice since I bought it, but was able to control the car almost exactly the same as if I was going 40Mph.

[ajprice]

After reading the thread title "Fast cars, bow before your new leader:" I was expecting the thread to be about this...
Nissan GTR

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by ajprice 

After reading the thread title "Fast cars, bow before your new leader:" I was expecting the thread to be about this...
Nissan GTR

YouTube - 2007 Noble M400 Road Test by Edmunds' Inside Line

This is still faster.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by macmonkey 

Top Gear pretty much says it all, and adding a bigger engine without a whole lot of handling work is just going to make it worse. I like my cars to turn.

Bingo. The same thing happened when they tested the new Shelby Mustang (500 hp engine). All the effort went into upgrading the engine, the suspension was still stock (which isn't overly sophisticated anyway). On the track, it was beaten by a wide margin by another tuned Mustang which had to live with `only' 400 hp. But the suspension and the breaks have been upgraded.

[ajprice]

Yep it was a Roush that was tuned suspension but 'only' 400bhp, heres a link of Clarkson comparing the Shelby to the Roush (wigh a couple of minutes or so on the original Bullitt Mustang 390GT at the start.

Link

[imitchellg5]

I love the Roush in Transformers. I would give an arm and leg for it.

Edit: I just realized if I gave an arm and a leg for it, then I really wouldn't be able to drive very well

[sek929]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

YouTube - 2007 Noble M400 Road Test by Edmunds' Inside Line

This is still faster.

Almost 80 mph in the slalom

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by sek929 

Almost 80 mph in the slalom

Not to mention a 3.2 0-60.

Oh, and it's powered by the same engine as my car (plus a couple turbos)

Our testing equipment has definitely had a hard lesson in Newtonian physics. The Noble hit 60 mph in just 3.2 seconds, then streaked through the quarter-mile in 11.4 seconds at almost 120 mph. This makes it the quickest car we've ever tested, leaving behind the Corvette Z06, Ford GT and Porsche 911 Turbo.

The M400 also slices through the slalom at 79.4 mph, nearly 4 mph faster than the previous record-holder, the poised Porsche 911 GT3. The Noble also rips up the skid pad at 1.05g, breaking another standard previously set by the 911 GT3.

[stevesnj]

599 Fiorano GTB no words needed

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by stevesnj 

no words needed

Three words used.

[ajprice]

How many Corvettes could you get for that?

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by ajprice 

How many Corvettes could you get for that?

Good question...how much do Vetts go for these days? The Ferrari goes for about $265k

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

But the suspension and the breaks have been upgraded.

When a car stops at a light due to the driver applying a pedal, it's using the brakes. When it stops because of a mechanical malfunction, it breaks.

[IceEnclosure]

Originally Posted by stevesnj 

599 Fiorano GTB no words needed

Probably my favorite car. Still you could have two 2009 ZR1's(with equal performance) and a 2008 Z06 for the price. That Ferrari will not pull away from the ZR1 though, and that's just how it is.

[IceEnclosure]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Bingo. The same thing happened when they tested the new Shelby Mustang (500 hp engine). All the effort went into upgrading the engine, the suspension was still stock (which isn't overly sophisticated anyway). On the track, it was beaten by a wide margin by another tuned Mustang which had to live with `only' 400 hp. But the suspension and the breaks have been upgraded.

You "bingo'd" his point about big engine/no handling. With your nose up in the air it's hard to read so:

“It all boils down to the power-to-weight ratio and the ZR1’s is exceptional – better than the Porsche 911 GT2, the Ferrari 599 and even the Lamborghini LP640."

Ride and handling

The ZR1 is built on the same aluminum-intensive chassis as the Corvette Z06 and features similar independent SLA front and rear suspensions, with aluminum upper and lower control arms. Where the ZR1 differs is the suspension tuning, which was optimized for the car’s steamroller-wide front and rear tires.

Magnetic Selective Ride Control is standard and tuned specifically for the ZR1. The system’s ability to deliver a compliant ride with nearly instantaneous damping adjustments enabled engineers to develop a surprisingly supple ride quality in a supercar that still delivers cornering grip of more than 1g.

From a high-performance perspective, Magnetic Selective Ride Control helps the rear axle remain planted during launch for smooth, hop-free acceleration. It also helps suppress axle movement when cornering on broken or uneven pavement.

Brakes, wheels and tires

Commensurate with the ZR1’s engine output is the braking system, which is headlined by carbon-ceramic brake rotors. Found on only a few exotics and more expensive supercars, carbon-ceramic brake rotors are made of a carbon-fiber-reinforced ceramic silicon carbide material . Their advantage comes in low mass and resistance to wear and heat. In fact, the rotors should never show any corrosion or require replacement for the life of the vehicle, when used in normal driving.

The vented and cross-drilled rotors on the ZR1 measure 15.5 inches (394 mm) in diameter in the front and 15 inches (380 mm) in diameter in the rear – making them among the largest carbon-ceramic rotors available on any production vehicle.

Clamping down on the high-tech rotors are six-piston front calipers and four-piston rear calipers, each painted a ZR1-exclusive blue. The front pads are equivalent in size to the largest on any production car with a single-pad design – double that of the Corvette Z06’s 70-sq.-cm. front pads.

The brakes are visible through the ZR1’s exclusive wheels: 20-spoke alloy rims that measure 19 inches in diameter in the front and 20 inches in the rear. They come standard with a bright, Sterling Silver paint finish and chrome versions are optional. The wheels are wrapped in Michelin Pilot Sport 2 tires developed specifically for the ZR1, measuring P285/30ZR19 in front and P335/25ZR20 in the rear.






-----------------------------------


This ain't a Mustang. And it's got bigger brakes(not breaks) than I've evar seen.

[OreoCookie]

I was talking about the Mustang and not the ZR1/6. And the tendency of American `sports cars' to be good at driving in straight lines only.

[hwojtek]

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure 

does the fact that the car pulls over 1g on the skidpad not hit you in the head when you say stuff like that?

Not, because I've learned through years that "skidpad rating" is basically the very same marketing trick as is used in "highway mpg". The highway mpg are measured at a specific speed (it's 120 km/h in Europe, for example) and guess what - the ECUs in most cars are deliberately tuned to deliver the leanest mixture possible (best mpg) when... cruising at around 120 km/h in top gear.
It's the same with "skidpad Gs". Most kids will be putting their hands into pants when they hear the number before "G". Sure, it is quite important to have a combination of suspension geometry and tire sidewall height and stiffness that allows the car to corner well.
But the 'skidpad' is an American test (edit: I just saw that you wrote this "American who doesn't..." below. I decided to keep this part, because I thought the oval thing is funny, but this remark was not intended to patronize you for being American whatsoever) . It is just as applicable to test the agility of a car, as calling the winner of oval races "World Champion". Man, he only turns left!
And that's the point with the skidpad. You only measure how big the lateral acceleration is before the car breaks traction. This has more to do with the tires and LDS's than supertricky suspension setups nowadays anyway. A simple change of tires gives even a 20 percent better skidpad record. But skidpad doesn't answer the question "how good the car corners". It answers a different question: "what is the tractional limit when driving in circles of a given radius".
The real test is intermittent lane change, AKA slalom. Bear in mind there is another marketing trick buried in the slalom test. I am sure you can work it out and from a bunch of tests deface the one which has been made by marketoids, not by drivers.

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure 

you're trying to play the "i'm arguing with a dumb american who doesn't know cars exist outside of the dragstrip and the US of A" and it's not working out too well.

No. What I am trying to do is to make you realize that actually anything might be sold as "the best car in the world". It's not the drivers (or "the general public") who judge it, but it is the marketing who pushes the car to sales. It is our (OK - it is mine, but everyone is invited) job to stay away from the marketing, pseudo-technical and pseudo-scientific crap and judge (not an easy task, concerning the amount of wine and luxuries we are being spoiled with by the car makers).
Which is the reason I will always look for balance and quality, rather than sheer performance or pure power. It is because the rule of thumb (and the rule of profit) says: if the whole "best car ever" campaign is based on a simple set of biased features, the car is otherwise crap.

This said I must admit that I am a Porsche guy and a 997 GT3RS would be my daily driver have I bought one, however I would also admit, that this car is way off-balance and generally useless. Some time later ;-)

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure 

except when it comes to your opinion on it's styling. That's cool, but you should have just said that in the first place!

Nonono, it's not styling. It's the completeness. I should have said it in a bit more complex way, but I hope I've explained it somehow above.

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure 

hmm, are you going to end up citing mini-parking lot solo-type events as the proper venue to prove your "tight and twisty" theory?

I'd put a Mini Cooper S with JCW add-ons and win ;-)

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure 

oh, and why did this thread have to become a vette vs' audi thing?

We can do it a Germans vs Vette or a Italian exotics vs Vette thing ;-)
In fact, I feel a strange temptation to put some words about the Gallardo Superleggera I've been driving when Lambo did the press launch last September :-)

[IceEnclosure]

Nirwana <-- I don't know this guy but I like reading various racer blogs.

If I had a Mustang, I wouldn't try to go racing it stock at a racetrack. There's really only a handful of cars where that is a good idea. It's obvious and expected for someone to upgrade their suspension if they race. I don't care what some british tv show says, I know a dozen Cobra Mustangs that regularly terrorize the exotic car crowd.

"Aww man there's this yellow Murcielago that I slaughter every Friday at the same traffic light, the guy gets so mad!!" - My friend with his crazy Cobra. (and by judging the videos in the blog I posted above, which is owned by a dude who has a similar Cobra with similar mods, the Cobra could possibly outhandle said Murc too if the road ever turned.

haha

[IceEnclosure]

Originally Posted by hwojtek 

No. What I am trying to do is to make you realize that actually anything might be sold as "the best car in the world". It's not the drivers (or "the general public") who judge it, but it is the marketing who pushes the car to sales. It is our (OK - it is mine, but everyone is invited) job to stay away from the marketing, pseudo-technical and pseudo-scientific crap and judge (not an easy task, concerning the amount of wine and luxuries we are being spoiled with by the car makers).
Which is the reason I will always look for balance and quality, rather than sheer performance or pure power.

This car makes no bones about being mostly about "sheer performance" and "pure power".
Also, I never said this is the best car in the world or anything(not that you said I said that). I already said I might take a 599 GTB for daily driving if life could be a dream.

Also, my buddy's dad has a 1989 930 Turbo, it's really cool. He's got some work to it, 3.6, various upgrades. We got it up to about 160mph with a fair bit of room to go. The fact that it has only 4 forward gears makes me giggle.

[hwojtek]

Hell yeah, a 930 turbo, a true widowmaker. It's incredible that Porsche was able to legally deliver that amount of power in a car that was using a totally outdated, even in late 80's, suspension. Not to mention the odd, Porsche-trademark RR-layout... I'd love to have another spin in this car, I was really scared when I drove it for the first time, especially as it happened during the presentation of the 996 Turbo which, basically, drives almost by itself, no matter how dumb or creative the driver is ;-)

Ah, regarding the 599 - it's a good choice for a daily driver, but it's damn tough to park this thing if the park assist goes on strike (and, since this is the very same park assist that is used in Fiat Pandas or Alfa Romeos - it happens more often than a Ferrari buyer would expect). Aston Martin does a better job in the quality assurance department, but the V8 Vantage is really disappointing.
Putting the 997 GT3RS aside, I am still in search of the perfect daily driver (in Europe I need to take snow in account, the lack of parking space in european cities, fuel pricing over here, driving habits, the need for CO2 efficiency etc). I believe the BMW 3-litre twinturbo, 272 HP diesel engine is the proper engine for a daily driver, but still don't know if it is better in E92 3-series coupe chassis, or as an E90 touring (AKA wagon). Low-6s 0-62mph, +155 mph top speed and even I was able to keep it @ 23 mpg diesel in the city. Truly amazing. And the sound of this engine, it's incredible that a diesel engine can sound that beautiful, intense but civilized. Only a proper V8 tops it in sound experience department. By "proper" I mean American this time - the european V8s are a little different in construction, which leads to lack of this distinctive sound.

[xi_hyperon]

Originally Posted by hwojtek 

I'd put a Mini Cooper S with JCW add-ons and win ;-)

<slight derail> The JCW Stage 1 is sweet, but for best bang for the buck, I'd recommend ALTA. Just sayin'. </slight derail>

[is not]

Originally Posted by hwojtek 

It's not the drivers (or "the general public") who judge it, but it is the marketing who pushes the car to sales. It is our (OK - it is mine, but everyone is invited) job to stay away from the marketing, pseudo-technical and pseudo-scientific crap and judge (not an easy task, concerning the amount of wine and luxuries we are being spoiled with by the car makers).

Did you get a free laptop, too?

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by is not 

Did you get a free laptop, too?

You would be surprised at what automakers give to the press. If it had their logo on it, or if they thought it would make the car win some award, yes.

[is not]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

You would be surprised at what automakers give to the press. If it had their logo on it, or if they thought it would make the car win some award, yes.

Why do you think I would be surprised?
Bye.

[angelmb]

Originally Posted by hwojtek 

What I am trying to do is to make you realize that actually anything might be sold as "MOST LIKELY the best WHATEVER in the world". It's not the CONSUMERS who judge it, but it is the marketing who pushes the WHATEVER to sales.

Fixinated™ but otherwise right…

Advertising: the science of arresting the human intelligence long enough to get money from it.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by is not 

Why do you think I would be surprised?
Bye.

Good bye?

PS- It's a figure of speech.

[macdude]

Originally Posted by stevesnj 

Good question...how much do Vetts go for these days? The Ferrari goes for about $265k

Edmunds and the others report around that for the "normal" price, but if you check Autotrader.com you'll see them in the high $400's to low $500's.

[IceEnclosure]

599 GTB is hard to get at sticker, I believe macdude's right the GTB is collecting serious money, rightfully so I'd say. That thing is sick. Enzo power, beautiful sound, race-lux interior.

[Arty50]

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure 

Probably my favorite car. Still you could have two 2009 ZR1's(with equal performance) and a 2008 Z06 for the price. That Ferrari will not pull away from the ZR1 though, and that's just how it is.

Yeah, in a straight line...on dry pavement...etc...etc...

I'll never forget an article I read a few years back. They tested a handful of the supercars at the time. From memory it was a Ferrari, a Porsche, a Viper, maybe a Vette, and/or a Lambo.

The Ferrari was the last car they drove for the test and it started raining lightly just before they took it around the track. The verdict. The Ferrari wasn't the quickest 0-60, wasn't the fastest in the 1/4, but it was "the only car we felt comfortable driving hard in the rain." That's because Ferrari gets it. It's not just about drag stip numbers. It's about building a balanced car that uses the power it has to the fullest extent. Big engines are cool and all, but they're useless if the car isn't designed to handle them.

[IceEnclosure]

Originally Posted by Arty50 

Yeah, in a straight line...on dry pavement...etc...etc...

I'll never forget an article I read a few years back. They tested a handful of the supercars at the time. From memory it was a Ferrari, a Porsche, a Viper, maybe a Vette, and/or a Lambo.

The Ferrari was the last car they drove for the test and it started raining lightly just before they took it around the track. The verdict. The Ferrari wasn't the quickest 0-60, wasn't the fastest in the 1/4, but it was "the only car we felt comfortable driving hard in the rain." That's because Ferrari gets it. It's not just about drag stip numbers. It's about building a balanced car that uses the power it has to the fullest extent. Big engines are cool and all, but they're useless if the car isn't designed to handle them.

I recall your posts are normally pretty smart. This was an exception.

WTF cares about "a few years ago"? Also, I wouldn't take a supercar out in the rain. It's dumb, they're not meant for it. Doing the traction control thing and all, whatever.

Fact: Nothing is going to make 620HP feel "comfortable" in the rain.
(how much HP did this Ferrari have in the test? No more than 400 I bet, with a very weak torque curve(easy non-agressive rain driving).

Watch a sportscar race on television. The Corvettes that are beating the Ferraris don't all-of-a-sudden spin out when the rains come down. No, they put on the rain tires like everyone else, and keep racing. It's just, they usually win.

You should have picked on solid-axle Mustangs or Camaros, still, I'd have a few easy mods for ya to get those things to drive real nice in the rain too!

"The verdict"?? You don't know jack.

[IceEnclosure]

If you DON'T LIKE THE CAR, that's quite fine. Just don't come in here acting like you know what's up and spitting out some nonsense. Just say "I don't like that car, it's stupid" and be done.

This last guy quoted half of my quote about being able to buy two ZR1s and a Z06 for the price of a 599 GTB. He left out the part about me saying I love Ferraris. Then he's gonna show me by talking about the awesome prowess of Ferrari. DUH!!

Next guy that says the ZR1 doesn't turn, or is a drag strip machine(lolol) will be the 'NN 'tard of the day.



*edit: It was in fact a complete quote.

[mrtew]

The ZR1 doesn't turn, and is a drag strip machine.

[ctt1wbw]

So how do they get it turned around to run the drag again, lift it with a forklift?

[IceEnclosure]

lawlerz

[MallyMal]

So...yeah, I like the ZR1.

And the 599GTB and the GTR and Porsches and Audis and bikes too. Yeah, I love bikes.

[IceEnclosure]

Originally Posted by MallyMal 

So...yeah, I like the ZR1.

And the 599GTB and the GTR and Porsches and Audis and bikes too. Yeah, I love bikes.

a waiter at my job has a ducati. that's just not right.

[Shaddim]

Let's face it, there are 100s of car models that are fast and agile enough to give almost anyone a happy. With a little work and money, the performance numbers published by auto manufacturers are useless, one of the fastest (and best handling) cars I've ever seen on the road was a 900hp Honda.

It all comes down to what you find aesthetically appealing, and how much you're willing to spend to impress others.

[MallyMal]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Let's face it, there are 100s of car models that are fast and agile enough to give almost anyone a happy. With a little work and money, the performance numbers published by auto manufacturers are useless, one of the fastest (and best handling) cars I've ever seen on the road was a 900hp Honda.

It all comes down to what you find aesthetically appealing, and how much you're willing to spend to impress others.

Yeah, that is what I was saying above in a round about way.

[MallyMal]

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure 

a waiter at my job has a ducati. that's just not right.

You know what model?

[hwojtek]

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure 

7:42.9 - 160.207 km/h -- Corvette Z06, 500 PS/1319 kg

Just to stir things up, it has been recently disclosed, that a Lexus LF-A test mule has achieved 7m24s on the 'Ring (wiping the floor with a Porsche 911 GT2 driven by Walter Roehrl himself, BTW).

I wasn't able to take a ride in the GT-R, but the UberSupra Lexus might be just the real king of the 'Ring for a long time.

[IceEnclosure]

Originally Posted by MallyMal 

You know what model?

I don't know, but I think 9-something, I sorta recall.

[MallyMal]

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure 

I don't know, but I think 9-something, I sorta recall.

Hmm, could be a 916, 996, or 999. But I won't derail your thread trying to figure out the bike. Either way the he has a very nice bike.

[mrtew]

Originally Posted by MallyMal 

Hmm, could be a 916, 996, or 999. But I won't derail your thread trying to figure out the bike. Either way the he has a very nice bike.

You just did!

[is not]

What about a three seater SLR?





Bye.

[ajprice]

Originally Posted by is not 

Caption competition, anyone?

[chris v]

Corvette, Be prepared to have your world rocked by the Fiat Multipla!

[analogika]

Originally Posted by chris v 

Corvette, Be prepared to have your world rocked by the Fiat Multipla!

That thing is the only car in recent memory that's actually uglier than the PT Cruiser.

It boggles the mind.

There's something about that car that took me fifteen minutes to get over when I first saw one in person, years ago. Sometimes, images don't do a car justice, and this is one of those times. IRL, it's not just ugly, it's *hideous*.

[OreoCookie]

Even the name sounds hideous to me, it has always reminded me of `Multiple Sklerose' (multiple sclerosis), not a very positive association.

[IceEnclosure]

did homer simpson design that thing?

[is not]

The old Multipla. A very fatty 500



Bye.