[Loert]

I just bought a Sony TVR-103 Digital 8 at Sears for $630 and I must say that it works with Imovie brilliantly. Imovie is by far the coolest piece of software to come out of Apple in a while. I took old analogue 8's from college and started making movies the minute I plugged in the Sony. I then compressed the final product into email sized movies and sent them out to all the college buddies. I can't believe that Imovie hasn't received more hype than it has. To top it all off, I found the application was rock stable; I couldn't make it crash. I have added Imovie to my list of reasons why I don't use a Wintel machine at home. I also feel that the $1,299 I paid for my Imac is starting to look like a bargain.

[This message has been edited by Loert (edited 03-21-2000).]

[Kozmik]

You wasted your money on a Digital8 camcorder.

Very constructive criticism, Kozmik. And completely off-topic. Thank you for your earnest contribution to our collective wisdom.

Can anybody tell me more about video-editing with the DVSE 256mb. Is it stable and is it possible to work with Adobe Premiere 5.1? Is Final Cut Pro already available for DVSE?

Thanks...

[sblunden]

first of all Digital 8 cameras are not a waste of money. If you have a collection of 8 or Hi8 tapes its the best digital solution. The picture may not be as good as miniDV but it is better than VHS, I have used a Digital 8 and i think it is a very good camera. Especially for $630.

As for FCP I have gotten final Cut to work on a DVSE but the 15 monitor is too small to do serious work. I did notice that it was not as stable as it on a G4. I hear there is an exensions conflict so maybe that is the reason that it is unstable. But it does work. Also FCP is about 100 times more complex than iMovie and if all you are doing is editing home movies for friends and family i recommend saving the $1,000 and sticking with iMovie.


------------------
- s p e n c e r

[Loert]

Hey Kozmik,

Thanks for the info. I tried jamming my old 8's into a MiniDV camera and they wouldn't fit. So guess what? I bought a Digital 8 so I could edit them. If you have any other useful suggestions, let me know, otherwise you can kiss my ass.

For everyone else interested in this topic - Does anyone have any suggestions for emailing out large Imovies? Most Email services (including Earthlink) have attachment limitations and the only alternative I can think of is setting up a web page to house Downloadable Imovies. I tried some of those free disk space services but they weren't very Mac friendly (They kept crashing my finder). Thanks.


Loert

[This message has been edited by Loert (edited 03-21-2000).]

[penginkun]

Now, now...

I got the same camera you've got, and I have zero complaints.

Final Cut may or may not work. I've seen it in action on my own iMac, so I know if CAN happen. I haven't tried it since I upgraded to 9, so I don't know if it was because I was running 8.6, or if I was just lucky, or what... I've heard a LOT of people say it just won't work for them.

I haven't tried premier yet.

iMovie is good for very basic stuff, I'm finding, but FCP is probably what you'll want in the end. Apple's working on making it officially compatible with iMac DVs, so if you don't already have it, wait for the official announcement. If you already have it, give it a whirl. You've got nothing to lose if you do.

Kozmik is like a millionaire guys. Hey Kozmik, how do you like paying $16 per tape for the same 500+ lines of resolution that people get with D8 cameras and $5 tapes? Unless you're doing pro stuff, D8 is great. Kozmik needs to do some research before blabbing and making people feel bac over their purchases.

You guys should also look into using Strata Videoshop with the DV. Its $400+ if you buy it from them, but heres a groovy little secret. If you buy the InterView by XLR8 for $100 or less, it comes with the full version of this captain kickass program.

My question would be if anyone knows of any editing programs that can pull in footage through the firewire connections on the iMac DV besides iMovie? I can tell you that Strata cannot.

Hello again,
Q: Can anything do firewire other than iMovie
A: FCP definitely can.

As stated here and elsewhere, FCP is a very complex program when compared to iMovie. Apple's dilemma is whether to make iMovie more capable at the expense of FCP. I LOVE iMovie for its simplicity, but I dislike it for its lack of features... particularly the inability to do video inserts. Does anyone know how we, as a group, can convince Apple to enable a few more iMovie features (i.e. video inserts) and yet not damage the FCP market? I can't imagine anyone serious about producing non-linear being happy for very long with iMovie even if it did insert edits. The graphics are week for a professional product and the digital effects don't hack it. Nevertheless, I bet we have/will soon, see something edited in iMovie on cable TV.

AFN,
Rick

[Kozmik]

Oh, we have alright. A man involved with MacGroup Detroit makes inexpensive commercials for local businesses and edits them on an iMac DV Special Edition. Some have been aired. I took a look at a few of them, and they look excellent! iMovie works wonders for what it is.

[dante]

Kozmic, could you expand on why you the D8 is a waste of money?
I'm in the market for a camera, and the new Sony DCRTRV120, looks like a pretty sweet machine.

[vwa]

hawkmankt:
There is a product EditDV (see: www.radius.com and branch to digitalOrigin), which seems to me somewhere in between iMovie and FCP! You can download a full featured trial (valid for 30 days) and YES it DOES directly Firewire I/O on a DVSE!

macphan:
I certainly agree with you! I think iMovie is a great program but if you start working with it you very soon miss some additional features (e.g. better audio capabilities). I had the chance to see FCP for a whole day and I concluded, that this is not really what I want. This is really a professional tool and I would really like to have (and to pay for) iMovie upgraded with some minor improvements!

[Feathers]

I have FinalCutPro 1.2 running on a RevB iMac (although it calls all my stuff "off-line" quality, which I resent!) albeit slowly, and thats under 8.6 not NOS-NINE!

Helped a friend (a convert) buy and connect up an iMacDV with a SONY TRV900. Now I'm kinda used to Macs but the glitch free hook-up and communication between iMovie and the SONY blew me away. (An' I don't get blown that often!)
From Mac-In-A-Box to "Her first iMovie" in about forty minutes!

Now iMovie is BASIC but it sure does what it says on the box!!!

[penginkun]

I'm thinking Kozmik was just tossing in a piece of flame bait.

What a yutz.

Go with any of Sony's D8 cameras. You won't be sorry.

Can a DV camera like the Sony DV 8mm be used to concurrently capture video from a non-DV source. For example can I record a tv show to 8mm tape and extract it to my iMac at the same time?

What controls do you get over a DV camera from your iMovie or FinalCut software? Are the controls scriptable? Could you use your DV camera as a digital 'VCR'?

[Kozmik]

If any of you are confused about my views on Sony's crappy Digital8 format, please read my post called "My Views on Digital8" at http://forums.macnn.com/cgi-bin/Forum5/HTML/001917.html

Mar:
You cannot use the D8 Camcorders as on-the-fly converters. Someone somewher on this forum once wrote that you could take the firewire output through the camcorder and flow out through the RCA jacks simultaneously, but I could not get that to work on my DV310. You CAN take any 8mm tape and, using the D8 camcorder, do a realtime conversion into iMovie. (i.e. there is no extra step, your camera sees it as though it were a digital tape.)

HTH,
Rick

[Q-Chan]

Kozmik, I read your post about why you believe the Sony D8 format is, to employ your term, "crappy." I still don't quite understand your reasoning.

You say the format is going to become obsolete soon. On what evidence do you base this belief? Lots of people are still buying ordinary, analog 8mm camcorders, which seems to me to indicate that the manufacture of 8mm tapes is not going to end anytime soon. And as long as those tapes exist, how will these cameras possibly become obsolete? You'll still be able to shoot with them, upload raw footage from them into an iMac, and download edited footage back to the camera or VCR.

You also say there is "no advantage" to buying D8. How about saving $600 or $700? How about not needing to buy a converter to edit old analog footage? Those sound like advantages to me. Yeah, I know, these cameras are bigger and heavier than MiniDV cameras, but i think for most of us that's not much of an issue. (At least it's not for me. Two pounds is not exactly a major burden.)

If you do have valid reasons for thinking D8 cameras are lame, I'd love to hear them, since I am about to invest in one.

So ... what's the real story?

[This message has been edited by Q-Chan (edited 03-24-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Q-Chan (edited 03-24-2000).]

[Kozmik]

Yes, people are still buying analog 8mm and Hi8 camcorders. People are also still buying pre-G3 PowerMacs. Ever wonder why? Because they are very inexpensive due to their obsoleteness. Maybe I have been a little hasty about my hate toward Digital8, but I just don't like it. Also, why would one need any sort of converter to edit their old 8mm footage? If you buy a MiniDV camera, you can dub your old video to MiniDV and edit from there. It's not difficult at all. And as for price, most of what you are saying is BS. Yes, for prosumer and professional digital video, a real DV format is pretty expensive. However, I have seen quite nice consumer-based Canon MiniDV cameras for prices comparable to Sony's high-end (and mid-range) Digital8 cameras.

You are on the right track, but I think a bit extreme. What really makes some thing obselete? Is it just because there is some new whiz bang thing? If it works for you and keeps working, it really isn't obsolete.

Personally, I wouldn't buy a D8 camera but not because of the reasons you site. I have never shot in 8mm, or Hi8, save once, because of some inherent inadequacies of these formats compared to S-VHS at the prosumer level. Therefore, I would have no tape to convert. One of your arguments for not buying D8 is actually a good reason to go with D8. That is you can convert with an mini-DV camera. That simply isn't true, many good mini-dv's do not record through the analog video ports. In addition, any time you add cable to the equation, the quality of the video will be adversley affected. So, if you are converting it is better to do it directly in the playback device.

A big advantage of D8 is the fact that you can use Hi-8 tape. You can buy it anywhere, a drug store or a grocery store. And it is usually cheaper than mini-dv (I usually pay about $7 to $7.50/60 min. tape without the ASIC for mini-DV.) Who knows how long it will take for mini-dv to proliferate so you can get it anywhere and to a point to where the cost is reduced below Hi-8 (remember how expensive Hi-8 and S-VHS tape were when they first came out?)

The actual dataformat for D8 is exactly the same as mini-dv. The only difference is the media. This is really Sony's way of extending the viability of Hi-8 rather than planning for obselesence.

Hate it? Why? If you have 8mm tape now, why shouldn't someone buy this if they really intend to import that video to an NLE? If someone does not have an 8mm library, then that person should seriously think about going with straight mini-dv. But, like any other camera question, get what feels good and you will use 'cuz if you don't use it, what's the point?

Now get out there and shoot some video!

[rjc3]

to the best of my knowledge, only one of the prosumer level canon minidv cams support on the fly digital conversion from an analog source such as a vcr, cable box or tv. On the other hand, converting old 16mm and vhs to digital has been a breeze with my Sony trv-103 Digital 8 cam . and it cost half as much as an elura. I can get the tapes cheap at almost every drug store, supermarket or camera store across the world, and the accessories are plentiful. add cool features like ir night vision, the "intelligent" accessory shoe which syncs with accessories (ie shotgun mike attachment zooms the mic in sync with the optical zoom), and its much lower cost at purchase and in operation, and the digital 8 line of cameras looks very attractive to me. And Quality? I worked at a Mac store last year where we sold MiniDv cams and I ended up buying a digital8 from Costco despite the savings provided to me as an employee for the canons. To my eye, any difference between the digital 8s and mini dvs in terms of clarity, brightness, contrast, etc. is nil. Did I mention Sony's excellent reputation in the camcorder industry, and in particular the hi8 and 8mm markets before going into digital8? And just for the record, I think the digital 8 cams are GREAT even if you don't have any old 8mm or hi8 stuff. It is a better value than minidv virtually across the board. I wholeheartedly endore the digital 8 line.
Just my two cents worth. And no, I don't work for Sony : )

[This message has been edited by rjc3 (edited 03-29-2000).]

[Loert]

I have noticed that video in Imovie appears to be missing frames when playing video from my D8. Has anyone else had this problem? The video looks fine through the camera but appears slightly jerky when importing into Imovie. Is it actually missing frames or does it just appear that way? Any thoughts would be helpful. I wonder if VM is the culprit. Thanks.

Loert

[Q-Chan]

Hey Loert ...

Sorry i can't answer your question -- i just today bought a TRV-103, and haven't had a chance to try it out yet. But i do have a question for you: You mentioned early in this thread about how you compressed your finished movies and sent them out as e-mail. I'm not sure i know how to do that ... can you give me a quick tip?

Thanks much ... if i have the missing-frame problem on my iMac, i'll let you know.

[MS]

Guys, in answer to the last two posts:

1) The picture will look choppy when importing. Don't worry, when you export back to quicktime or your camcorder, the video will look fine.
2) To export a finished imovie, just choose export from the drop-down menu, then choose quicktime movie, instead of videotape. You then have several options to choose from (frames per second, size, etc.)

Hope this helps.

[Loert]

MS - Thanks, it's good to know I don't have a problem w/the camcorder or my firewire.

Q-Chan - When you save the movies to quicktime files remember that in order to email them you will have to keep them under 2 MBs. Most email services won't take very large attachments. I created a 6 minute movie w/lots of sounds/effects that was about 2 GB before compression into quicktime and 7.6 MB after compression. If they are over 2 MBs, I recommend you either post them as webmovies (so you can make them as large as you need to) or post them to some free diskspace site so your friends/family can go download them. I got some space at www.freediskspace.com and sent out instructions to my friends on how to get the videos and my problems were solved. So before you edit anything, think about how big it needs to be and how you will distribute it. You will love the TRV-103. Good Luck.

Loert

[Q-Chan]

Thanks Loert ... that's a major help. By the way, doesn't iTools offer some free disk space for purposes like this as well? I might look into posting a movie there.

Hooked up the camera last night, and it works like a dream. Amazingly easy to import/export and edit clips. You're right, i do love it (at least so far). Thanks again ...

(And thanks to MS as well. The "jerky" effect did indeed go away when i exported to the camera and then to TV.)

[This message has been edited by Q-Chan (edited 04-06-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Q-Chan (edited 04-06-2000).]

[Loert]

Q-Chan,

I am still using 8.6 because I was waiting for 9.04 so I don't really know much about itools (requires 9.0). Quite a few of my friends made the mistake of buying cheap Wintel boxes and I just made the assumption that PC users can't get to info on itools. I really don't know. If they can, that's good news. To be honest, www.freediskspace.com isn't very reliable if you are using a modem b/c of the chance of interruption and disconnections. The interface kind of sucks too but I know it works OK with an Imac DV. Later,


Loert

[Kozmik]

Try running iTools on 8.6. It works fine.

[Jeff Edsell]

Aaargh! I'm planning on buying my first camcorder this year. I know I want to go digital. First, I thought Digital8 was very cool - I was practically committed to it.

Then I did some research on About.com and elsewhere, and I changed my mind - my sources said, "Don't bother with Digital8 unless you have a stack of 8mm tapes sitting around. The quality isn't as good, and the future of the format is uncertain."

Now I read this discussion, and I'm totally lost. Almost everyone seems to be echoing my initial impressions about Digital8. (But I admit I had no idea it Digital8 cameras were getting so cheap.)

Well, thanks for the info. I hope I end up making the right decision.

Jeff

Jeff,(and others)
Just in case, that big retailer that used to only sell "Kenmore" appliances, is selling the Digital 8, Sony 310, for $799 this weekend. May herald the permanent lowering of the price on that model or may just be a great loss leader. If you're going, that's a great deal.

Rick <<didn't mean to endorse any retailer. Your mileage may vary

[Loert]

Kozmik - Can PC users retrieve files from itools, or does it have to be a mac w/8.6 or 9.0? Thanks.


Loert

[Kozmik]

I must clear up a few things. iTools does not work perfectly with 8.6. A few things are incompatible. However, things such as iDisks will work. As for running it on a PC, I don't think it's possible (unless you have a Mac emulator or something).

[Q-Chan]

Hey Loert (if you're still out there), or anyone else who might have an answer to this:

Have you had any trouble uploading movies to freediskspace? I registered for my 25mb on their server, but every time i try to upload a movie that i've converted to Quicktime, the cursor just spins and spins and nothing happens.

I tried disabling the Java multiple-upload option, as the FAQ suggests for Mac users, but still no luck. The movie is pretty big -- 14 mb -- but i don't see why that should be the problem. It's not as though i'm trying to send it as an e-mail attachment; i'm just trying to post it as a Webmovie.

Any insights would be appreciated. Thanks much.

(BTW: It's true, iDisk is only accessible to Mac users. Sorry i brought it up.)

[MS]

Loert, Kozmik, and Q-Chan, yes, you can have PC users access your itools files via the web.

For example, Loert, if you made a quicktime that you wanted to share with the web community, put it in your movies folder on your idisk. Let's say your movie's filename is kids.mov. Drag that file to your movies folder. Now anyone can access that imovie if you give them the appropriate URL.
Yours (if your itools user name was Loert) would be: homepage.mac.com/Loert/.Movies/kids.mov

I have used this several times to share some of my movies with friends and family, and many of them are PC users. As long as they have downloaded the PC version of Quicktime prior, they shouldn't have a problem.

Hope that helps.

MS

[This message has been edited by MS (edited 04-11-2000).]

[Q-Chan]

MS,

Thanks very much for this info. If this works, it'll solve my problem as expressed in previous post. I read through the FAQ for iTools, and it seemed to indicate that no non-Mac users could access those folders, so i'm really glad you cleared this up.

[Loert]

MS -

Thanks for the info. I'm going to sign up for idisk. The PC question deterred me before.

Q-Chan - Not that it matters now that idisk will work better, but I would go out to a movie or dinner and just leave that sucker spinning and eventually when I got back it uploaded. It just took what seemed forever. I'm off to sign up for idisk. Thanks,

Loert

MS has it right on the money. You actually share the files by creating web pages with the simple web tool (or you can create your own.) That way the pc users just go to your webpage and grab what they want. As MS said, you upload your movie into the Movie folder of your iDisk. Then you create a movie web page-the rest will be obvious. I have been using this to share larger image files with some friends. It is very easy.

Simplicity can be wonderful - 20 MB of space that you can use for web pages isn't bad either...