[Eug Wanker]

http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2004/06/09/apple/

Anyone that has seen the heat-sync from a Power Mac G5 knows that it would not fit in a portable computer. This is the challenge that faces Apple as it tries to move its pro product line to the new fast processor technology.

"I think it's important to realize that the technical challenges are not trivial putting that G5 in a PowerBook or anything else and not to expect a G5 anytime soon in a PowerBook -- certainly not before the end of the year," said Boger.

[BrunoBruin]

Between this and the seemingly definitive news that we shouldn't expect 3GHz soon either, I think I will just stay out of the forums for a few days. I can just imagine the wailing, the weeping and the hair-pulling.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by BrunoBruin:
Between this and the seemingly definitive news that we shouldn't expect 3GHz soon either, I think I will just stay out of the forums for a few days. I can just imagine the wailing, the weeping and the hair-pulling.

Well, my 1 GHz TiBook SD's AppleCare is good until the end of 2005, so I can still wait. I had hoped for a G5 PowerBook by Xmas 2004 though.

[Randman]

The quote says not to expect, certainly not before the end of the year. That means they could still be announced at the end of the year, or they could be announced earlier and released by the end of the year.
The headline on the post is wrong and misleading.

[schmoe]

I was surprised to read that the 2.5ghz Power Mac G5 will have the 90nm chip. I thought the liquid cooling was due to it having the old, hot, 130nm design. Is the new chip so hot that it needs liquid cooling?? Perhaps things are much better at a lower frequency like 1.6ghz, but I wonder.

[plasticmoz]

Originally posted by Randman:
The quote says not to expect, certainly not before the end of the year. That means they could still be announced at the end of the year, or they could be announced earlier and released by the end of the year.
The headline on the post is wrong and misleading.

Well, and they could also announce quad G5 PowerMacs but the likely-hood is that it won't happen. I don't think it's misleading at all - straight from the horses mouth.

[James L]

Most people knew the G5 PB wasn't coming anytime soon, especially after a release just came out.

Maybe now people can realize it is not going to happen anytime soon, and they can just enjoy the current lineup!

Cheers,

James

[JHromadka]

Originally posted by Randman:
The quote says not to expect, certainly not before the end of the year. That means they could still be announced at the end of the year, or they could be announced earlier and released by the end of the year.
The headline on the post is wrong and misleading.

Apple would not wait until December to announce a new product. They would want to do that before September to catch the Edu and consumer markets before school starts and Christmas.

[ink]

Whelp; no new PowerBook for ink in 2004 then.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by schmoe:
I was surprised to read that the 2.5ghz Power Mac G5 will have the 90nm chip. I thought the liquid cooling was due to it having the old, hot, 130nm design. Is the new chip so hot that it needs liquid cooling?? Perhaps things are much better at a lower frequency like 1.6ghz, but I wonder.

IBM says the G5 2.5 GHz 970FX is about as hot as the G5 1.8 GHz 970.

I suspect the new cooling is for two reasons.

1) Quieter
2) More robust, for future 3 GHz 970FX.

[Pierre B.]

Originally posted by JHromadka:
Apple would not wait until December to announce a new product. They would want to do that before September to catch the Edu and consumer markets before school starts and Christmas.

For the Edu buying season there is the current Powerbook line. As for Christmas, a little before or after that, there will be the new Powerbooks, but still no G5.

[Pierre B.]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
I had hoped for a G5 PowerBook by Xmas 2004 though.

No Eug, sorry, I don't think so. The G5 is very hot. Perhaps it would be fine in the black and thick Wallstreet plastic enclosure, but not in an Aluminum. No way as it is right now.

[todrain]

That's ok... by the time that we have a powerbook G5, we should see a Dual-Layer slot loading SuperDrive, faster Bluetooth, and maybe more enhancements in the product.

[jamesa]

Originally posted by Pierre B.:
No Eug, sorry, I don't think so. The G5 is very hot. Perhaps it would be fine in the black and thick Wallstreet plastic enclosure, but not in an Aluminum. No way as it is right now.

Well, maybe it is too hot for the current enclosure, but that's not because it's aluminium. Aluminium conducts heat well... plastic does not. Which means that you can get away with hotter chips inside it because the case acts as a big-ass heat sink

-- james

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by Pierre B.:
No Eug, sorry, I don't think so. The G5 is very hot. Perhaps it would be fine in the black and thick Wallstreet plastic enclosure, but not in an Aluminum. No way as it is right now.

Uhh... Isn't this what this entire thread is about?

I had just hoped BACK IN 2003 that a G5 would make it into a PB by the end of 2004. Now it looks like 2005.

Anyways, aluminum is BETTER for heat than plastic. Aluminum enclosures can act as a heatsink, while plastic would act as an insulator.

[Pierre B.]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:

Anyways, aluminum is BETTER for heat than plastic. Aluminum enclosures can act as a heatsink, while plastic would act as an insulator.

Absolutely correct and that's exactly the problem. The Aluminum with a G5 will burn you for sure, the plastic will not. Do you remember that the Wallstreets operated at up to 75 C (158 F) fanless? And now the Aluminum's fans start at 51-55 C (124-131 F), depending on the model. And still people find them very hot, and from personal experience I can say that they feel much hotter than the Wallstreet.

[Pierre B.]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
Uhh... Isn't this what this entire thread is about?

Haha, yes, indeed .

[The Placid Casual]

Will we even see a G5 as we know it in a Powerbook at all?

Freescale looks more promising at the moment...

[Pierre B.]

Originally posted by The Placid Casual:
Will we even see a G5 as we know it in a Powerbook at all?

Freescale looks more promising at the moment...

A G5 as we know it certainly not, I am convinced on that, a G5 specially adapted for a thin notebook, perhaps yes. And in any case, Freescale looks more promising. They are targeting the embedded market and produce really low power chips. Only thing it remains is to actually deliver those e600s. And in time.

[Maflynn]

Originally posted by jamesa:
Well, maybe it is too hot for the current enclosure, but that's not because it's aluminium. Aluminium conducts heat well... plastic does not. Which means that you can get away with hotter chips inside it because the case acts as a big-ass heat sink

-- james

That seems to me the opposite of what needs to happen. You want a material that conducts heat so it move the out from the cpu instead of having inside the enclosure. So using my non-enginerring brain, I want to keep the internals as cool as possible using a material that helps migrate the temprature outside.

Its funny in a couple of different threads people kept saying how possible it is to put a G5 in a PB (or an iMac for that matter) and I kept saying that the G5 runs too hot (that's why they have 9 fans).

Well the 2.5 really must be running hot for apple to invest in a liquid cooling solution. I don't buy that this is for the future, it costs too much money R&D and manufactoring money to put somthing like that into the computer for the future. If its needed it goes in, profit margins are so thin these days that throwing that baby in just for the next release makes no sense.

Mike

[justinkim]

You know, it might not be just the heat of the processor that's keeping the G5 out of PowerBooks now. Maybe Apple's trying to figure out a way to get the fast bus and other motherboard components to run within a PowerBook's heat and power envelope. I bet performance would be pretty disappointing if they were to just put a G5 in with the current slow bus and memory.

[legionare]

Guess I'll not be contributing to financing SJ's jet fuel cost in 2004 then.

[himself]

I suspect that when the G5 PB does make it to market, it will use a variation of the liquid cooling system just released in the new G5.

Well the 2.5 really must be running hot for apple to invest in a liquid cooling solution. I don't buy that this is for the future, it costs too much money R&D and manufactoring money to put somthing like that into the computer for the future. If its needed it goes in, profit margins are so thin these days that throwing that baby in just for the next release makes no sense.

I partly agree with you, but apple has always been a forward looking company. Whether the the new 2.5Ghz G5's need the liquid cooling or not (I think they don't actually need them), they can benefit from it, performance wise. And I think implementing it now (and only in the top of the line model) dilutes the R&D expense further down the line, when you are likely to see liquid cooling in systems that may actually need them (like, potentially the entire PowerMac G5 line, or even the powerbooks at some point). The earlier apple gets a return on it's investment in liquid cooling, the better (for apple and the consumers).

[Eug Wanker]

Sorry, if we're strictly talking the CPU, a G5 1.4 970FX is COOLER than a G4 1.5 7447A, and in fact it would seem that a G5 1.5 would be cooler than a G4 1.5 as well.

It is a fallacy that the G5 970FX is inherently a hot chip. At 2.5 GHz, yes it is, but at less than 1.8 GHz, it's OK - warm.

Remember that IBM rates the G5 1.4 at 12.3 Watts typical, which probably means its max is around 25ish Watts. The G5 2.5 is rated at 50 Watts typical which probably means its max probably close to 100 Watts. ie. It's a completely different kettle of fish.

Originally posted by Pierre B.:
Absolutely correct and that's exactly the problem. The Aluminum with a G5 will burn you for sure, the plastic will not. Do you remember that the Wallstreets operated at up to 75 C (158 F) fanless? And now the Aluminum's fans start at 51-55 C (124-131 F), depending on the model. And still people find them very hot, and from personal experience I can say that they feel much hotter than the Wallstreet.

That makes no sense at all. The aluminum can be used as a heatsink in areas if desired, or can be shielded from the heat if desired.

The reason a Wallstreet feels much cooler is because it IS much cooler (and it's a proportionally larger case as well). You just can't compare a G3 233 or whatever it is with a G4 1.5 obviously.

[innocentchild]

What cracks me up is an Apple Store employee//friend was telling me how the powerbooks are coming out in September. I started laughing because the notion is ridiculous right now. They can't even solve all of the problems with cooling the G5 in a full tower let alone solve the problem of cooling on in a powerbook - yet. I'm sure at some point they will. Having a shipping product by September, no way. I was told that *oh they figured that out* which hell, maybe they have, but I highly doubt it. There was that new technology of on-chip cooling that emerged recently. But that's new tech and not production ready last I checked.

I'm reserving a 5% chance that the rumor is true just because stranger things have happened. Mostly I see information like that as disinformation. Besides, why would Apple be telling *retail* employees about this? If the Director of Product Marketing said something about G5 PB's coming in September you can be sure that's true. Coming from a retail clerk in a store - no.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by innocentchild:
What cracks me up is an Apple Store employee//friend was telling me how the powerbooks are coming out in September. I started laughing because the notion is ridiculous right now. They can't even solve all of the problems with cooling the G5 in a full tower let alone solve the problem of cooling on in a powerbook - yet. I'm sure at some point they will. Having a shipping product by September, no way. I was told that *oh they figured that out* which hell, maybe they have, but I highly doubt it. There was that new technology of on-chip cooling that emerged recently. But that's new tech and not production ready last I checked.

I'm reserving a 5% chance that the rumor is true just because stranger things have happened. Mostly I see information like that as disinformation. Besides, why would Apple be telling *retail* employees about this? If the Director of Product Marketing said something about G5 PB's coming in September you can be sure that's true. Coming from a retail clerk in a store - no.

Apple store salespeople know no more than we do. Well sometimes they have a few days advance notice but that's it.

[Pierre B.]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
That makes no sense at all. The aluminum can be used as a heatsink in areas if desired, or can be shielded from the heat if desired.

The reason a Wallstreet feels much cooler is because it IS much cooler (and it's a proportionally larger case as well). You just can't compare a G3 233 or whatever it is with a G4 1.5 obviously.

Like it or not, CPU monitoring software thinks otherwise. The Wallstreet operates at MUCH higher temperatures than any Aluminum Powerbook, and even if the fan remains silent, it feels much cooler. The reason Apple leaves it to operate at these temperatures without fan is that, by construction (much bigger volume than the Aluminums + plastic case), the heat is hardly an issue and the user can work confortably. Unless he has it on his lap.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by Pierre B.:
Like it or not, CPU monitoring software thinks otherwise. The Wallstreet operates at MUCH higher temperatures than any Aluminum Powerbook, and even if the fan remains silent, it feels much cooler. The reason Apple leaves it to operate at these temperatures without fan is that, by construction (much bigger volume than the Aluminums + plastic case), the heat is hardly an issue and the user can work confortably. Unless he has it on his lap.

Sorry, but CPU temp. does not equal output wattage, nor does it indicate system temperature.

The PowerPC 750 G3 uses less than 10 Watts at maximum. ie. It's about a third as hot as the G4 1.5.

[Pierre B.]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
Sorry, but CPU temp. does not equal output wattage, nor does it indicate system temperature.

The PowerPC 750 G3 uses less than 10 Watts at maximum. ie. It's about a third as hot as the G4 1.5.

I see. However, the total output wattage for the Wallstreet is 45 W, the same is for the 12" Aluminum.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by Pierre B.:
I see. However, the total output wattage for the Wallstreet is 45 W, the same is for the 12" Aluminum.

Where do you get that? If that were true in real usage they'd only have one hour of battery life.

[Pierre B.]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
Where do you get that? If that were true in real usage they'd only have one hour of battery life.

This is the total wattage the power adapter provides. I think it corresponds to the maximum power consumption (under full system load--LCD included).

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by Pierre B.:
This is the total wattage the power adapter provides. I think it corresponds to the maximum power consumption (under full system load--LCD included).

The maximum power the power adapter provides should be higher than the laptop consumes. How much higher one does not know. eg. You can use a 65 Watt 15" PowerBook adapter with a 12" PowerBook (or slower 12" iBook) just fine, but that doesn't mean the 12" PowerBook is consuming 65 Watts.

[Maflynn]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:

It is a fallacy that the G5 970FX is inherently a hot chip. At 2.5 GHz, yes it is, but at less than 1.8 GHz, it's OK - warm.

Remember that IBM rates the G5 1.4 at 12.3 Watts typical, which probably means its max is around 25ish Watts. The G5 2.5 is rated at 50 Watts typical which probably means its max probably close to 100 Watts. ie. It's a completely different kettle of fish.

Eug I'm confused by your statement. You mentioned here the 970fx is not a hot (at least below 2.5) because its rated at 25ish watts

Then you say this

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
Sorry, but CPU temp. does not equal output wattage, nor does it indicate system temperature.

Maybe I'm missing something but you use wattage to make a point then you discount the use of wattage

I'm no engineer but when apple uses 9 fans to cool an enclosure and uses liquid cooling on th 2.5s, then G5s really must be running hot. I can't see any other explanation.

Mike

[Pierre B.]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
The maximum power the power adapter provides should be higher than the laptop consumes. How much higher one does not know. eg. You can use a 65 Watt 15" PowerBook adapter with a 12" PowerBook (or slower 12" iBook) just fine, but that doesn't mean the 12" PowerBook is consuming 65 Watts.

Of course, but the power output of the power adapter that comes with a specific Powerbook model, should not differ substantially from the actual maximum consumption. In fact, my 12" Powerbook 867 MHz, at full power non-stop on battery, it lasts for a little more than 1 hour. This is consistent with the 45 W maximum power and the 50 Wh battery energy.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by Maflynn:
Eug I'm confused by your statement. You mentioned here the 970fx is not a hot (at least below 2.5) because its rated at 25ish watts

Then you say this

Maybe I'm missing something but you use wattage to make a point then you discount the use of wattage

I'm no engineer but when apple uses 9 fans to cool an enclosure and uses liquid cooling on th 2.5s, then G5s really must be running hot. I can't see any other explanation.

Sorry if it was not clear, but one cannot use desktop-speed CPUs as a direct measure of feasibility of laptop use. One does not run desktop chips in a laptop. The G5 2.5 is relatively hot, that is true. However a G5 1.4 is not. It's MUCH slower, and it runs at a lower voltage as well. IOW, IBM has managed to create a G5 1.4 chip that is actually likely cooler than a G4 1.5. Conversely, if a G4 were running at 2.5 GHz, it'd be pretty damn hot too, but at 1.5 GHz it's fine for a laptop.

Also, CPU temp is not a measure of wattage. A moderate wattage CPU with poor cooling will run hotter than a high wattage CPU with good cooling.

Originally posted by Pierre B.:
Of course, but the power output of the power adapter that comes with a specific Powerbook model, should not differ substantially from the actual maximum consumption.

In fact it often does.

Thus the power adapter is useless to determine CPU wattage or even overall system power at maximum. It's not as if Apple creates 10 different power adapters to exactly match their various laptops. That would be a bad idea anyway, since the power adapter's max power supplied should easily exceed the max power draw by the laptop.

[Pierre B.]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:

Thus the power adapter is useless to determine CPU wattage or even overall system power at maximum.

However, at least for the special case I am talking about, there seems to be some consistency with the figures the power adapter gives. I don't know if it is coincidence or a more general (approximative) rule.

[jocker]

The G5 is cooler than the G4 and uses lets watts at the same clock speed. period. If it weren't, then we'd have G4s in a desktop at 2.5ghz too. Read all the tech data on the two processors.

Its simply the other aspects of the system around which the G5 is based (faster motherboard, bus, IO etc) which is causing Apple problems.

Getting the G5 in the xserve was the first step, we * will * see a G5 in a powerbook early 2005.

Apple aren't trying to put a 2.0ghz G5 into a laptop. They're trying to re-engineer the much faster system (motherboard, buses et al) so that it fits into the enclosure. The CPU is a small part of the problem, and one which has * already * been solved.

I, for one, would be happy with a 1.5ghz G5 powerbook with a 750mhz bus. And I guarantee that I'll be able to buy this by early 2005.

[Maflynn]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
Sorry if it was not clear, but one cannot use desktop-speed CPUs as a direct measure of feasibility of laptop use. One does not run desktop chips in a laptop.

Thanks for the clarification, I agree with you completely. Laptops and desktops are completely different beasts. The CPUs are typically lowerer powered as are the components. I have 1.25 AL and its slower in a number of ways then my old QS that I sold to buy it. I'm not complaining but i was a little surprised that some things too longer. After looking into it I found the ram differance coupled with the slower hard drive and graphics card produced a slower PB.

Don't get me wrong I love my PB, but I am looking toreturn to faster processeing and the G5 is awesome.

[no1allowed]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
Sorry if it was not clear, but one cannot use desktop-speed CPUs as a direct measure of feasibility of laptop use. One does not run desktop chips in a laptop. The G5 2.5 is relatively hot, that is true. However a G5 1.4 is not. It's MUCH slower, and it runs at a lower voltage as well. IOW, IBM has managed to create a G5 1.4 chip that is actually likely cooler than a G4 1.5. Conversely, if a G4 were running at 2.5 GHz, it'd be pretty damn hot too, but at 1.5 GHz it's fine for a laptop.

Also, CPU temp is not a measure of wattage. A moderate wattage CPU with poor cooling will run hotter than a high wattage CPU with good cooling.

In fact it often does.

Thus the power adapter is useless to determine CPU wattage or even overall system power at maximum. It's not as if Apple creates 10 different power adapters to exactly match their various laptops. That would be a bad idea anyway, since the power adapter's max power supplied should easily exceed the max power draw by the laptop.

Actually it probably has nothing to do with how "hot" a chip can actually run. It more than likely has an effect on how noisy a chip gets at a certain internal temperature. At 90nm and being able to process 216 instructions simultaneously, the effects of capacitance and leakage in insulating layers begins to put a drag on performance at higher temperatures. Remember as temperatures increase, so doesn't resistance in conductive materials. This resistance might be minute to us, but to a 90nm transistor it could be quite a hurdle. There's practically an industry-wide cry for help with the amount of noise and leakage they are seeing at 90nm. Pentiums being produced at 90nm actually have rather huge chip sizes compared to the 970FX and consequently have better dissipation of the heat they produce. That's why they can operate at 3+ GHz. Of course we all know their GHz rating is only a measure of how fast their chip goes through electricity

Of course the big question is can IBM solve the problems? Of course they can and they, unlike Motorola, have an incredible amount of talent, and I mean world class talent, they can throw at the problem. And I believe the 970FX has a lot of potential, it just needs time.

[vcutag]

Originally posted by Pierre B.:
Absolutely correct and that's exactly the problem. The Aluminum with a G5 will burn you for sure, the plastic will not. Do you remember that the Wallstreets operated at up to 75 C (158 F) fanless? And now the Aluminum's fans start at 51-55 C (124-131 F), depending on the model. And still people find them very hot, and from personal experience I can say that they feel much hotter than the Wallstreet.

You sure about that figure for the Albook's fan? Mine doesn't kick on until 142-144�F (62�C), and even then, it's gotten up to 147�F before starting to come back down. Since changing settings (d'oh), I've been running between 105-120�F.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by jocker:
I, for one, would be happy with a 1.5ghz G5 powerbook with a 750mhz bus.

I wouldn't. I'd want something like a G5 1.8 (considering the PowerBooks are already running G4s at 1.5 GHz), although a 600 MHz bus would satisfy me.

That brings up another point. It seems one of the problems of a G5 in a PowerBook is the system controller. One suspects it is a significant source of power usage as well.

[Pierre B.]

Originally posted by vcutag:
You sure about that figure for the Albook's fan? Mine doesn't kick on until 142-144�F (62�C), and even then, it's gotten up to 147�F before starting to come back down. Since changing settings (d'oh), I've been running between 105-120�F.

Yes, as far as older models are concerned. My first generation 12" 867 MHz, starts its fan at 51.5 C (125 F) and stops only if the CPU temperature drops to 47 C (117 F).

[pgolf]

Originally posted by vcutag:
You sure about that figure for the Albook's fan? Mine doesn't kick on until 142-144�F (62�C), and even then, it's gotten up to 147�F before starting to come back down. Since changing settings (d'oh), I've been running between 105-120�F.

On my 12" 1.33 the fan turns on at 122�F, while the 15" 1.25 kicked in at around 140�F+.

[Maflynn]

Originally posted by Pierre B.:
Yes, as far as older models are concerned. My first generation 12" 867 MHz, starts its fan at 51.5 C (125 F) and stops only if the CPU temperature drops to 47 C (117 F).

My 15" AL PB's fan does not start until the temp reachs 140+F

Mike

[Kenstee]

Originally posted by Pierre B.:
Yes, as far as older models are concerned. My first generation 12" 867 MHz running 10.3.1, starts its fan at 51.5 C (125 F) and stops only if the CPU temperature drops to 47 C (117 F).

Are you running 10.3.2+? My RevA 12 - running 10.3.1 - fan doesn't start until it's 60C and shuts off when 60C is reached. I believe in 10.3.2+ the fan goes on at a much lower temperature.

[Pierre B.]

Originally posted by Kenstee:
Are you running 10.3.2+? My RevA 12 - running 10.3.1 - fan doesn't start until it's 60C and shuts off when 60C is reached. I believe in 10.3.2+ the fan goes on at a much lower temperature.

Right. I am under 10.3.4. Before I had 10.2.8 and the fan started at 63 C (145 C). Now the Powerbook runs much cooler, although it is often more noisy.

[Eug Wanker]

Pics of Apple's G5 Power Mac liquid cooling design in various states of undress. Hmmm...

[Pierre B.]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
Pics of Apple's G5 Power Mac liquid cooling design in various states of undress. Hmmm...

What a massive system. I hope people here start to realize that Apple are not joking about this. I have the feeling that the heavy problem here is not heat itself, but surface heat density.

[sbc]

So, if you bought a Powerbook G17 in 2004 and a year from today the G5 powerbooks were out, what trade-in value would be offered for the older model.


Hopefully the G5 would give both performance and battery life improvements. So it may not be worth passing up.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by Pierre B.:
What a massive system. I hope people here start to realize that Apple are not joking about this. I have the feeling that the heavy problem here is not heat itself, but surface heat density.

Apple has already said that the 2.5 GHz 970FX's overall heat output is not a problem and that in fact it's no hotter than the chips in previous G5 Power Macs. However, as you suggest they have said that power density is the problem. The actual quote is here.