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Car Talk (Page 43)
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Originally Posted by Laminar
How about trying to be Euro? Cadillac CT-5.
Non-police Charger is still an option, those are generally recognized as fast cars, with kind of a hooning reputation.
I had to look up “hooning”.
My hooning is limited to pretending interstates are the autobahn. A euro luxury sedan is the obvious choice, but wouldn’t mind options where I piss away less money.
Somewhere along the line it occurred to me a cop car is close to ideal. I kind of like the idea of a Charger tbh. I wonder how roomy they are in front. I also like the idea of a Caddy.
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Last edited by subego; Jan 3, 2025 at 07:31 PM.
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I think I’ve been bitten by the Charger bug. Even, dare I say it… the EV model.
Not cheap though.
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Is this to replace the van or augment it?
The electric version isn't super impressive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KV6XDHsuU1w
If you're willing to go electric, the 2024-up Model 3 Performance is like $55k and is murderously fast. I'd get one of those before I got a Charger.
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Augment the van, which is why I’m avoiding SUV/XOs.
Not been a fan of the Teslas I’ve ridden in as a passenger.
The video didn’t cure my problem as much as I thought it would. It’s comfy, and good for the highway. That’s exactly what I’m looking for. In theory I don’t mind if it handles like a boat.
Luckily, this is still in dream-phase, so I’ve got some time for them to work some kinks out.
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Personally I’m a Charger hater…..but kind of a Dodge/Stellantis hater as well I guess, so could be my bias showing. I just don’t know what they’re still doing in business but I guess Ram and Jeep are propping them up.
Are you just looking for an EV as a second runabout car? Me too. In my case it’s just a cheap practical small family city car that does everything OK and nothing amazing…which is pretty much the Chevy Equinox EV at this point. A dad in my son’s class got one this fall and he loves it for what it is. I test drive it and also the Cadillac Lyric over the holidays. Neither of them set your hair on fire performance-wise or features but they have pretty great range and are perfectly comfortable to drive (the Lyric was really nice inside I must say).
So my issue with the Charger as an EV is that the gas version seems like a big, pretty heavy, large-displacement loud coupe meant for burning tires in a straight line. Right? But straight-line acceleration is what most EVs are already good at. I’d love to see the EV version of….the Civic Type R, you know? Nimble and fast and connected-to-the-road but still a practical 4-door 4-seater.
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Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton
I’d love to see the EV version of….the Civic Type R, you know? Nimble and fast and connected-to-the-road but still a practical 4-door 4-seater.
Model 3 Perf and IONIQ 5 N seem to fit the bill.
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Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton
Are you just looking for an EV as a second runabout car?
Yes, but just in case, it should excel at felony speeding.
There’s lots of evidence I should hate Stellantis, but I struck gold with my (rebranded Fiat) van. Absolutely love the thing. I cut them slack because of it even though I probably shouldn’t.
I really want an interior where I don’t feel cramped, so the Charger being huge is potentially a feature, not a bug.
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Originally Posted by Laminar
Model 3 Perf and IONIQ 5 N seem to fit the bill.
Have you driven either of them? I’ve only tried the Model 3 Performance. Definitely a high-performance vehicle but it doesn’t feel connected to the road and just pure fun to drive, you know? It’s possible I’m probably longing for a thing that is dead and gone but I’ve heard pretty great things about the 5 N, so I suspect not.
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Haven't driven either, but I've watched a Model 3 absolutely smoke every single Corvette, Miata, M3, Mustang, Camaro, GT86, etc. at an autocross, so they're certainly fast and capable handlers. I suspect some of the road connection and pure fun comes from the visceral experience of ICE NVH, which a Model 3 wouldn't have. But the IONIQ fakes a lot of that with motor noise and "shifts" and stuff while being as fast as the Model 3.
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I guess when the time comes I’ll do my best to give Tesla a fair shake.
I am resolutely determined to ignore anything I hate that isn’t related to comfort or high-speed cruising. How much I hate the interior shouldn’t matter as long as the seat is comfortable and I don’t feel cramped.
With all that weight, I’m assuming the Charger might have better ride comfort though.
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A former work colleague has a Model 3 and I got to ride in one. He had the low-end model and it was still ridiculously quick. We were on tight mountain roads, and you do feel the weight of the car, but because the weight is so low down, it handles more like a sports car, i. e. it is very much planted to the ground and doesn't feel like a barge. To make that happen, the suspension is stiffer than you might expect. It isn't stiff-stiff, though. It is also less spacious than you might think, especially in the rear.
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I’ve only ridden in the back, but with the front seat slid all the way forward as is common in rideshares.
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Originally Posted by subego
I am resolutely determined to ignore anything I hate that isn’t related to comfort or high-speed cruising.
Finding that hard with the Ioniq though. I’d be fine if it was just ugly, but it’s ugly and it thinks it’s hot.
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Originally Posted by subego
I’ve only ridden in the back, but with the front seat slid all the way forward as is common in rideshares.
We were 4 adults in the car, I'd say all of us were average-sized. Definitely less roomy than a VW Passat, perhaps less spacious than a Golf. It is the BMW i3 in reverse: that car feels more roomy on the inside than you expect from the exterior, with the Model 3 it was the reverse.
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Speaking of electrics, I came out of a shop on Wednesday to find a Rivian SUV parked next to my CR-V.
It seems like it's close in size to a Ford Explorer in height, width, and length. This one had a third row of seats in the back - I'm not sure, but it looked like two seats, not three. It's definitely an eye-catcher. Sadly, I didn't see it moving, so I don't know how snappy it goes.
I've seen a Model 3 go from just sitting in a parking space to going about 20 MPH in maybe 2 seconds. They can definitely get out of their own way...
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The Rivian looks a lot better in-person, imho. We have a surprisingly large number of them around here, and they look really nice in the wild. It’s a good design (visually, anyway.) It’s a soft, friendly design. Those vertical lights are especially neat at night.
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Unfortunately, that’s an in-person opinion.
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I agree that my picture doesn’t do the vehicle justice. I took it with my phone from about my eye level, and I was in a hurry. The Rivian does look a lot better in person, as Thorzdad says.
Rivian’s site for the R1S has a lot of much better photos that seem to be much closer to the in-person experience than my quick picture.
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Still looks smushed to me.
Specifically, the windows. I feel like it’d have crummy visibility.
My van spoiled me. The windshield is enormous.
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I can understand that. When I drove my son’s sedan after driving an SUV for many years it initially felt like I didn’t have visibility. It was simply that my point of view was at a different height.
Note how high the seats in the Rivian are; I think the height might make up for the less enormous windshield.
And now I might have to visit a dealer to see what it’s really like.
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Don’t get me wrong. Even smushed I like them. I was lusting after the pickup one I creeped in person.
Saw a Tesla Model S today, which I almost never see. Looks bigger, so it might be closer to what I’m looking for in terms of a spacious feeling interior.
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I dunno. Everything I ever heard about Teslas of any flavor make them sound like anti-TARDISes. Big on the outside but tiny inside.
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I’m just saying relative to a 3.
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Since we can put them anywhere, I’ve come to the firm conclusion digital instrument clusters would be better placed higher up and to the right of the steering wheel.
This way you still have the road in your peripheral vision when you glance at it.
In that sense, Tesla was onto something, but unsurprisingly the implementation is still half-baked. What I’m talking about needs to be just for the driver (i.e., angled towards them), and not a clusterfuck.
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Yeah, I meanI think that’s why most auto makers now have that iPad-esque approach that Glenn hates so much. It allows them to “float” the screen above the dash up into the driver’s line of sight. You notice the difference when going back to the older integrated-style screens where the dash is either really night or the screen is really low to look at.
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I mean for the speedometer, warning signals, etc.
So, not something center-mounted meant for the whole car to see, but just for the driver.
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What about a HUD projected onto the windshield?

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I certainly like the idea of a HUD. I feel there must be something wrong with it or it would have caught on more.
Even with a HUD, behind the steering wheel is a bad place for the non-HUD cluster.
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Everytime I see a Rivian:
I honestly think the overall design is fantastic, but those headlights are so fucking dumb
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Originally Posted by subego
I certainly like the idea of a HUD. I feel there must be something wrong with it or it would have caught on more.
2024 Vehicles with an available HUD:
Code:
Acura: Integra, MDX, RDX, TLX, ZDX
Audi: A4, A5, A6, A7, A8, E-Tron GT, Q4 e-Tron, Q5, Q5 e, Q7, Q8, Q8 e-Tron, S3, RS 3
Bentley: Bentayga, Bentayga Hybrid, Continental GT, Flying Spur, Flying Spur Hybrid
BMW: 2 Series, 3 Series, 4 Series, 5 Series, 7 Series, 8 Series, i4, i5, i7, iX, X1, X2, X3, X4, X5, X6, XM, Z4
Buick: Enclave, Envision
Cadillac: CT4, CT5, Escalade/Escalade ESV, XT4, XT5, XT6
Chevrolet: Blazer EV, Camaro, Corvette, Silverado 1500, Silverado 2500/3500, Suburban, Tahoe
Ferrari: Purosangue, SF90 Spider/SF90 Stradale
Ford: Escape, F-150, Super Duty F-250/F-350
Genesis: G70, G80, Electrified G80, G90, GV60, GV70, Electrified GV70, GV80
GMC: Acadia, Canyon, Sierra 1500, Sierra 2500/3500, Terrain, Yukon/Yukon XL
Honda: Accord Hybrid, Pilot
Hyundai: Ioniq 5, Ioniq 6, Palisade, Santa Fe, Santa Fe Hybrid, Sonata Hybrid
Infiniti: QX50, QX55, QX60
Jaguar: E-Pace, F-Pace, I-Pace, XF
Jeep: Grand Cherokee/Grand Cherokee L, Grand Cherokee 4xe, Grand Wagoneer/Grand Wagoneer L, Wagoneer/Wagoneer L
Kia: EV6, EV9, Niro EV, Telluride
Lamborghini: Urus
Land Rover: Defender, Discovery, Discovery Sport, Range Rover, Range Rover Evoque, Range Rover Sport, Range Rover Velar
Lexus: ES, GX 550, LC, LS, LX 600, NX, RX, RZ, TX, UX 250h
Lincoln: Aviator, Corsair, Navigator/Navigator L
Maserati: GranCabrio, GranTurismo, Grecale
Mazda: CX-30, CX-5, CX-50, CX-90, Mazda3
Mercedes-Benz: C-Class, CLA, CLE, E-Class, EQB, EQE Sedan, EQE SUV, EQS Sedan, EQS SUV, GLA, GLB, GLC, GLE, GLS, AMG GT, AMG SL
Mini: Clubman, Convertible, Countryman, Hardtop, SE Hardtop
Mitsubishi: Eclipse Cross, Outlander
Nissan: Ariya, Pathfinder, Rogue
Porsche: Cayenne, Panamera, Taycan
Ram: 1500
Rolls-Royce: Cullinan, Ghost, Phantom, Spectre
Toyota: Camry, GR Supra, Highlander, Grand Highlander, Land Cruiser, Mirai, RAV4 Prime, Sequoia, Sienna, Tacoma, Tundra, Venza
VinFast: VF 8, VF 9
Volkswagen: Atlas/Atlas Cross Sport, Golf GTI, Golf R
Volvo: S60, S60 Recharge, S90, S90 Recharge, V60 Cross Country, V60 Recharge, V90 Cross Country, XC60, XC60 Recharge, XC90, XC90 Recharge
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My (perhaps imperfect) definition of “caught on” is “seen even once in one of the half-dozen-plus Ubers I take a week”.
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Originally Posted by subego
I certainly like the idea of a HUD. I feel there must be something wrong with it or it would have caught on more.
Big fan of HUD here, I have it in my truck. It is often an expensive option. I’ve been told it may not work great with third-party replacement gas although that could be bullshit.
Even with a HUD, behind the steering wheel is a bad place for the non-HUD cluster.
Why? I thought you were talking about interactive information. Behind the steering wheel seems like the perfect spot — it’s straight ahead, only a slight glance down.
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Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton
Big fan of HUD here, I have it in my truck. It is often an expensive option. I’ve been told it may not work great with third-party replacement gas although that could be bullshit.
What is "third-party replacement gas"? And how would it affect an instrument readout?
The only OEM that's manufacturing gas is Porsche - they're experimenting with synthetic fuel. For all other brands, all gasoline is 3rd-party.
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Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton
Why? I thought you were talking about interactive information. Behind the steering wheel seems like the perfect spot — it’s straight ahead, only a slight glance down.
Humans have wide-angle vision, not tall-angle vision. We can take in a whole lot more information horizontally than we can vertically.
Edit: even though it’s off to the side and the size of a thimble, I found myself checking my speed in Waze instead of using my actual speedometer. It just started happening instinctually. I realized it was because my iPad is high enough I retain much better awareness of the road with my left peripheral vision than my top peripheral vision if I look down.
Further, on a sunny day, since the real speedometer is in shadow, I’ve got an extra quarter-second wait for my eyes to acclimate. Maybe less of an issue with digital.
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Last edited by subego; Jan 15, 2025 at 02:30 PM.
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Originally Posted by Laminar
Glass.
Yep….don’t know if true or not, but was told the dealers see a lot more problems with the HUD if customers use third-party windshield replacements.
Originally Posted by subego
Humans have wide-angle vision, not tall-angle vision. We can take in a whole lot more information horizontally than we can vertically.
I’m obviously not a human design expert but honestly don’t feel this is too relevant in the context of driving a vehicle. Your vertical field of view is already quite limited in a driving experience; it’s mostly just the road ahead and about 12 inches below to the upper dash. It’s not like drivers are being asked to tilt their head or anything — a quick flick of the eyes a few inches downward is all it takes.
Edit: even though it’s off to the side and the size of a thimble, I found myself checking my speed in Waze instead of using my actual speedometer. It just started happening instinctually. I realized it was because my iPad is high enough I retain much better awareness of the road with my left peripheral vision than my top peripheral vision if I look down.
I dunno. It’s a bit easier for me to check information straight down on the steering-wheel console than it is to look down and to the right at my large centre console display. For example, if I’m using a Maps app I tend to display it on the steering-wheel screen instead of to the right on the console screen (that’s where I’ll put my media instead).
All that to say I don’t care too much, but my general preference is not to have to look down and to the right.
Further, on a sunny day, since the real speedometer is in shadow, I’ve got an extra quarter-second wait for my eyes to acclimate. Maybe less of an issue with digital.
I’ve never noticed this issue on the vehicles I’ve had since 2016, but they either had good backlighting or digital displays. Feels like it might be a work van issue?
All that to say HUD is the best for my preference. For the first 10 minutes it’s distracting and then you suddenly get used to it and realize that looking down at all is pretty annoying…
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Let me try this again. Some critical bits are getting lost.
When I glance down at my speedometer, I’m taking my eyes off the road.
When I glance at my iPad, I still have some of the road in my peripheral vision. This is a vastly superior option.
Importantly, unlike a center-mount screen, my iPad placement is 100% optimized for the driver. It’s close to me, angled towards me, and is as high up as it can go without blocking the road.
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When I glance at the instruments, I still have the road in view. We actually have vertical peripheral vision, more upward than downward. That peripheral vision captures what’s going on outside of what we’re pointing our eyes at, and that’s how I can see when Joe BrakeTest slams on his brakes while I’m checking my speed.
There’s also a whole big thing about what focal distance one needs with bifocals for driving, and plenty of back and forth about transitioning versus separate focus (no line versus lined bifocals) for maintaining awareness of both traffic and speed. But it’s really a matter of whether you quickly shift your focus, or do it more slowly.
For the record, I’ve needed reading glasses for a long time, but at instrument panel distances I have more than sufficient focus to read the speed (and the tach, and any annunciator that stays on long enough to notice) without needing glasses for driving. My distance vision is 20/16 +/- in both eyes thanks to PRK, and that hasn’t changed since 2001.
“Wait, what was that about bifocals? What’s the issue?” Well it’s all about how the brain reacts to the change in where the eyes are pointed. Quickly switching from “reading” to “distance” isn’t a big deal; the brain does a “jump cut” when the eyes move quickly, and sort of edits out any blur between the start and stop point. But slower switches can be a bummer, especially with “transition bifocals”. The smooth change in lens correction, along with head movement, can cause disorientation.
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There is indeed vertical peripheral vision, however it has a much narrower field of view than our horizontal peripheral vision, so I felt comfortable leaving it out for simplicity’s sake.
Also, as I understand things, it’s flipped. Our lower peripheral is better than our upper. It’s more important for survival to see the ground because that’s our footing and snakes like to hang out there. The sky’s just a big blank.
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Originally Posted by subego
Let me try this again. Some critical bits are getting lost.
When I glance down at my speedometer, I’m taking my eyes off the road.
When I glance at my iPad, I still have some of the road in my peripheral vision. This is a vastly superior option.
Importantly, unlike a center-mount screen, my iPad placement is 100% optimized for the driver. It’s close to me, angled towards me, and is as high up as it can go without blocking the road.
I dunno. I feel you’re suggesting the centre console is higher up than the driver’s screen. I’ve not noticed that on the cars I’ve driven. They are usually about the same height. Glancing down for a fraction of a second is no more an inconvenience that glancing down and to the right — when, by the way, you are looking in the direction of the side of the road rather than the car directly in front of you.
HUD still wins.
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Last try.
My screen is high up because it’s an iPad. I can mount it wherever I want.
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That’s what I thought. Most cars now have a huge built-in centre console screen; you’re not attaching an iPad over top of an iPad.
Another thing to note is all the driver assist safety features now. They aren’t bad. If you’re looking down and the guy in front hits the brakes, your car will flash a warning and also hit the brakes itself. Same thing with going out of lane. So I guess that partly makes up for making you
More distracted….!?!?
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Mankind's only chance is to harness the power of stupid.
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
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Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton
That’s what I thought. Most cars now have a huge built-in centre console screen; you’re not attaching an iPad over top of an iPad.
Why not? It’s the 21st century. We can do whatever we want.
Regardless, I think the panel for the driver should take precedence.
I assume the traditional placement behind the steering wheel was due in large part to accommodate mechanical linkages. Those aren’t required now, so if there’s a better place for that to go, that’s where it should go.
There is a better place. High up, to the right of the steering wheel, like where I have my iPad mounted. I maintain better awareness of the road looking at that over the cluster behind the wheel.
Though I’ve never used one, I’d probably agree a HUD is ideal, but if it’s required to have a non-HUD backup, it should be high up, to the right of the steering wheel.
Now that the driver’s panel is sorted, we can work out where we put the less important displays.
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
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How do you feel about the MINI's dashboard?

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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
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Too low and too far over. It should be above the vent.
Smaller would be better, but that’s made difficult by the analog dial.
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Senior User
Join Date: Jul 2020
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The interior of new MINIs is why I don't own one. I love the exterior and they drive great, but the interior is tacky, cheap, and complete cheeseball. I had an original mini and I didn't mind that interior, but the new one sucks.
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Moderator 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
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Originally Posted by MacNNFamous
I love the exterior and they drive great, but the interior is tacky, cheap, and complete cheeseball. I had an original mini and I didn't mind that interior, but the new one sucks.
But hasn't that always been the case? When I first got into a new Mini, I was surprised how cheap they felt on the inside. The plastic had a definite Dacia feel to them, rugged, but cheap. Centered speedo never made sense to me either.
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I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
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Senior User
Join Date: Jul 2020
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The old one didn't feel cheap. I mean it felt like not an expensive car, but it felt solid and functional.
The newer ones all feel like creaky plastic. Centered gauge cluster was a way to cut costs and sell the same car in multiple markets just by changing the steering column.
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
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Originally Posted by subego
Too low and too far over. It should be above the vent.
Looks like they preemptively took your feedback for the new model. I passed one on the highway today and could actually see their speed.
Kind of like the 8th gen Honda Civic - whenever I passed one on my motorcycle I could always check my speedo calibration.

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