[art_director]

"They always buy the one you don't like"

-- a convenient excuse for why one's work isn't up to snuff and a horribly incorrect statement. if they always buy the one you don't like then you best brush up on your selling skills. anyone can create a good design / ad, few can sell them.

[godzookie2k]

I was going to say the same thing, but bit my tongue. Glad someone said it.

Alternative to the suggestion above: just don't give them a layout you don't like.

[dlefebvre]

Depending on where you work, the designer is not always the one selling the design. Nothing worst than a narrow-minded rep dealing with a narrow-minded client. You know the type, "Here's a sketch my wife did, could you do something that looks like it?"
But I guess there's always an excuse.

[art_director]

Originally posted by dlefebvre:
Depending on where you work, the designer is not always the one selling the design. Nothing worst than a narrow-minded rep dealing with a narrow-minded client. You know the type, "Here's a sketch my wife did, could you do something that looks like it?"
But I guess there's always an excuse.

that often happens early in the careers of designers / art directors. the good ones find their way into better spots / agencies. account people are nothing more than bag handlers these days. planners do much of the strategic thinking.

[designbc]

Originally posted by godzookie2k:
just don't give them a layout you don't like.

But you know how it works sometimes: You have to show 2 versions, there is one you love, the other one... well, you had to finish it. Guess what? They get the second one.

Or... you push until you sell the first one and then they say: Yes, I love it, but could we change this and that? until they mess it up. The last time it happened to me I was so upset than I told the customer to take it the way it was or hire someone else. They took it.

[killer_735]

An alternate explanation...

not wanting to get tooo philosophical, but Lucile Clifton said that people need to "let the poem be smarter than the poet." Where this applies in this case is that the work you love the most, you often try to own- you focus on you as the creator, and you're thinking more about how it reflects on you as the artist. Consequently, you don't let it go....you limit it based on your own opinion of yourself. Sometimes, when there's a piece that you don't like, you let it go...you don't try to own it-so you let go, and it can move beyond whatever things you do that hold it back.

Remember, as much as some people will try to tell you that there's a way to quantify a layout, or whatever type of image, it is a subjective medium.

This also doesn't mean that every piece you don't like is great. If you realllly think it sucks, it prolly does.

[dlefebvre]

Wise indeed.

[KeyLimePi]

Originally posted by art_director:
a convenient excuse for why one's work isn't up to snuff and a horribly incorrect statement. if they always buy the one you don't like then you best brush up on your selling skills. anyone can create a good design / ad, few can sell them.

What is this 'brush up on your selling skills' nonsense? So now designers are suppose to be salespeople, too? And we're not talking about long distance service, here. Good design should be able to stand on its own.

Stereotypes aside, sales & BusDev people are some of the most garish people I know...yet they all think they have such a great sense of style! I'd love to meet the 'designer' who is also the sales/account person!

[ultra-V]

What is this 'brush up on your selling skills' nonsense? So now designers are suppose to be salespeople, too? And we're not talking about long distance service, here. Good design should be able to stand on its own.

Stereotypes aside, sales & BusDev people are some of the most garish people I know...yet they all think they have such a great sense of style! I'd love to meet the 'designer' who is also the sales/account person!

Uhh, how about any graphic designer at a shop with less than 30 employees? Sure, at larger firms there's an AE to handle day-to-day client contact, but even there the designer should be presenting (or at least the creative director). Never trust the AE to present your work.

What we're talking about is not sales, but being able to describe the strategy behind your concept. And explain why these colors are good for their image. Or exactly what kind of photos you plan to shoot if they buy into it. How the theme unfolds from spread to spread. Stuff many clients don't really understand. Even the "salespeople" rarely understand it, they're just there to make sure the clients business needs are met.

Bottom line: Don't show anything you're not happy with. Even if it's only one design that's "just right". If you really understand their needs, they'll agree. But if they have a real objection, you better listen. They know their business better than you.

[art_director]

Originally posted by KeyLimePi:
What is this 'brush up on your selling skills' nonsense? So now designers are suppose to be salespeople, too? And we're not talking about long distance service, here. Good design should be able to stand on its own.

Stereotypes aside, sales & BusDev people are some of the most garish people I know...yet they all think they have such a great sense of style! I'd love to meet the 'designer' who is also the sales/account person!

yes, designers / art directors should be salespeople too. how else is the client going to get the essence of your rationale or experience your passion? there's no fookin' account executive on the planet that can convey a creative's enthusiasm for a project.

as for good design standing on its own: true, but it still needs to be sold. the best designers in the world sell, they do not stick their efforts through a hole in the wall and wait for an answer. they build elaborate presentation boards, sound rationale and compelling arguments for their decisions. hacks give their work to someone else to sell for them.

sales and biz development folk have specific tasks. i would add marketing people to that mix. they are your clients. you need to help them understand your vision, passion and rationale. it will help them sell it through to their superiors.

you'd like to meet the designer who is also the salesperson? -- i do not know your background. mine is in the advertising and design world. i have been employed at a number of agencies and i have worked on a wide range household brands in everything from durable goods to cars to food to high tech and beyond. i've worked along side some of the best in the business. let me tell you that the biggest difference between the good people and the bad people is the ability to sell.

the sooner young designers learn this the better. period.

[art_director]

Originally posted by KeyLimePi:
What is this 'brush up on your selling skills' nonsense? So now designers are suppose to be salespeople, too? And we're not talking about long distance service, here. Good design should be able to stand on its own.

Stereotypes aside, sales & BusDev people are some of the most garish people I know...yet they all think they have such a great sense of style! I'd love to meet the 'designer' who is also the sales/account person!

yes, designers / art directors should be salespeople too. how else is the client going to get the essence of your rationale or experience your passion? there's no fookin' account executive on the planet that can convey a creative's enthusiasm for a project.

as for good design standing on its own: true, but it still needs to be sold. the best designers in the world sell, they do not stick their efforts through a hole in the wall and wait for an answer. they build elaborate presentation boards, sound rationale and compelling arguments for their decisions. hacks give their work to someone else to sell for them.

sales and biz development folk have specific tasks. i would add marketing people to that mix. they are your clients. you need to help them understand your vision, passion and rationale. it will help them sell it through to their superiors.

you'd like to meet the designer who is also the salesperson? -- i do not know your background. mine is in the advertising and design world. i have been employed at a number of agencies and i have worked on a wide range household brands in everything from durable goods to cars to food to high tech and beyond. i've worked along side some of the best in the business. let me tell you that the biggest difference between the good people and the bad people is the ability to sell.

the sooner young designers learn this the better. period.

[Concept]

there have been some very valid points bought up on this subject, but in my opinion another unsaid notion of the entire transaction of idea to selling point and beyond is that.. design and its application is totally relative after a certain point.. while effective design is effective design... if the buyer ultimately never seems to get even the most rational of design theory -> rules its his eyes and mind that the decision lies on, and whoever has ever dealt with people know that to say they come in various apreciations is an understatement.. i say all that to say that while you may be able to produce more than a few in which you can leave the weaker pieces out.. the weaker pieces
still may have a chance at stroking the viewer(buyer) that special way in which he/she can only be stroked.

[teszeract]

Its been my experience that most often clients WILL buy the one that I like. No-one can "sell" your design as well as you if you have confidence in your work. YOU can explain the potential, background, feel etc much better than someone who doesn't have a relationship with the piece.

Of course, there are also those clients (or people who work for the client) who want to just be "matey" with the AE and the work is secondary to the Boys Club social scene. But for the most part, if the concepts are well presented, the client will veryy often ask which piece is your preference and why - and that is your opportunity.

Originally posted by KeyLimePi:
... I'd love to meet the 'designer' who is also the sales/account person!

Pleased to meet you

[bens1901]

Very often the Client doesn't know what they want, so it our job to consult them and guide them towards the best solution. In this regard, we are all sales people. We need to "guide" them (sell them) on the idea that is most appropriate for their product.

[andi*pandi]

Most of the places I've seen, the designer doesn't get to go to clients and make presentations. Putting comps on black board is a lost art.

I know I've had AE's and traffic managers come to me with a scribble on a napkin from their consult with the client... you've got to clench your teeth and do it unless you can get access to the client yourself.

I hate AEs. Think they're art directors because they wear a suit. SALESMEN. They will nod and let the client go off on tangents and then come back and say, your design is nice, but I talked them into a square logo in PMS 175.

Agh.

[KeyLimePi]

Personally, I don't think 'selling' and 'guiding' are necessarily the same thing. Sure you can, and should, explain the meaning behind your ideas, but it's another thing altogether to 'convince' someone that it is the best choice.

As any good AE will tell you (that is, if there were any good AEs) the best choice is the one with which the client is most satisfied. Very often that is not the first choice of the creative team. I don't think this represnts a shortcoming on anyone's part. It's just part of the business.

A common part, apparently, otherwise the aforementioned aphorism wouldn't have generated so much interest on these boards.

[daftpig]

Originally posted by KeyLimePi:
What is this 'brush up on your selling skills' nonsense? So now designers are suppose to be salespeople, too? And we're not talking about long distance service, here. Good design should be able to stand on its own.

Pardon my entry but I disagree.

I think anyone who wants someone to buy something (an idea, a work, him/her as an employee, etc.) must be first and foremost a salesperson.

It's a world of supply and demand (realist), you can't expect someone to buy into something without him/her seeing a benefit.

EDIT: With regards to "Good design should be able to stand on its own," remember chinoserie?

[art_director]

Originally posted by KeyLimePi:
Personally, I don't think 'selling' and 'guiding' are necessarily the same thing. Sure you can, and should, explain the meaning behind your ideas, but it's another thing altogether to 'convince' someone that it is the best choice.

As any good AE will tell you (that is, if there were any good AEs) the best choice is the one with which the client is most satisfied. Very often that is not the first choice of the creative team. I don't think this represnts a shortcoming on anyone's part. It's just part of the business.

A common part, apparently, otherwise the aforementioned aphorism wouldn't have generated so much interest on these boards.

keylimepi:

i respectfully disagree with this post.

our clients are not in the biz of communication and often do not understand the ramifications of the decisions we make and they make. we must educate them every time we do a project because in the end, regardless who championed a piece, if it doesn't work we get the blame.

btw, a.e.'s are a joke.

[kaboom]

Hey, after you designers learn how to be salespeople, how about learning about the printing process?

Did you know that when you print blue on top of yellow you get green?

*mumble fukingdesigners mumble*

/bitter prepress specialist

[MikeM33]

Well it's true at times, but sometimes you come-up with a real good design, send out a proof and they think it's "too busy". Like my last job, I was doing 4 color process phone book ad's. So I'm doing some ad for a pizza place and on the copy/layout sheet they're like okay put an image of Italy on the side, and here's the text (all scribbled out in illegible handwriting as-usual). Always the most vague descriptions. So this was a real "design" project for me and I spent quite a while working on it. Technically the job wasn't a "design" job (which is semi-BS, they just didn't want to pay a real designers salary).

So I do this ad, ship off the proof to the publisher. The publisher generally gets approval from the client from there. A few weeks later I get it back with changes They basically wanted everything stripped-out. That's when you just have to say FARK-IT and do what they want. They're paying for it, not me. So I do all that and it just looked "boring" but that's what they wanted.

This was an example of how I sometimes get too attached to a project. Generally new ads should have only taken like an hour to layout tops. I mean it's just phone directory stuff that's gonna get printed on crappy paper. Not like I was doing layouts for VOGUE or whatever. I think I spent like 2-3 hrs on this one because I was already way ahead on other stuff. I was just like; "oh this would look cool, and what about this?" I was getting totally sucked into it.

When I got canned from that job last month (long story, but I may have a civil rights lawsuit against those bastards) my co-workers gave me some stuff, and I had saved a print-out of a few ads I designed from scratch there. The original version of that pizza ad was in with my stuff when they handed it to me. I still like it enough to show in my portfolio to whoever the hell I'll be working for next.

The only decent thing I have to say about working there is that I did get to do more "design" related work (versus strictly production/pre-press stuff).

MikeM

[art_director]

Originally posted by kaboom:
Hey, after you designers learn how to be salespeople, how about learning about the printing process?

Did you know that when you print blue on top of yellow you get green?

*mumble fukingdesigners mumble*

/bitter prepress specialist

as soon as you production moneys learn to not fook up our layouts when you go make 'em all press ready and such.

seriously, i believe every art director / designer should spend a stint working for a printer. heck, even a month would teach them enough to avoid costly mistakes.

wouldn't be that easy for production folk and printers to work the other way up stream. y'all too busy sniffing ink and ****.

[dlefebvre]

What's wrong with sniffing ink? it sometimes help the creation process... (But to me, toner works the best)

[vsurfer]

I keep going back to April Carter's words:

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...hreadid=157579

[andi*pandi]

Originally posted by dlefebvre:
What's wrong with sniffing ink? it sometimes help the creation process... (But to me, toner works the best)

remember rubber cement? Now that was the stuff. And wax. Mmmmmm.

gorram it, nowadays there's just nothing in graphic design to kill your brain cells with.

[godzookie2k]

you don't mount proofs onto matboard with spray adhesive much do you? wooooo that stuff will kill you fast.

[zubro]

If you r good enough, the visual answer that you will give to your client will not be discussed to much.
Remember, you are at the service of the Co. that hires your... if you have a little bit of understanding of products and services (Ithink that covers most of it) and of psycology (umderstanding of the client him/herself) then the job is peace of cake, and not a fight to impose YOUR egoistic stuff! ;o)

Halla is great!

G.

[MikeM33]

Originally posted by art_director:
wouldn't be that easy for production folk and printers to work the other way up stream. y'all too busy sniffing ink and ****.

In as much as you "college educated creative types" don't know jack about production methods.

Try working as a press operator for a while dude. God damn I hate elitists with a passion. You have no friggin idea what it takes to set-up a press so please STFU. Thanks. Can you mix a Pantone color from formula using CMYK inks?

I've worked on both sides of the fence. I know my shiAt.

Besides I'm more creative than alot of the college educated types I've dealt with in my career. I was doing animation with a goddamn rigged-up 8mm movie camera when I was like 13. All that after just reading Disneys big book of animation.

I was working on my own comic book ideas by the time I was 17 or 18. I worked out the script and the characters. I still have the artboards.

Nevermind that my dad (now gone) was also an artist for TOPPS (the baseball card company). A great sign painter and awesome with calligraphy whom graduated from Cooper Union in the 30's.

My point? I worked my way-up from the very base. I know the whole process. Anyone saying us press guys (or in my case formerly press guys) don't know anything needs to re-read thier shiAt. Quit sniffing glue and remember we're all in this together dude. If it weren't for them you're work would be shiAt.

I'd probably out-design anything you could come up with on your own anyway. Hey can you actually draw? Like on Paper with a #2 pencil or charcoal? Or a Pen?

Amazing how many computer graphics "professionals" can't even draw a goddamn picture of anything without Illustrator, Quark or Photoshop.

Benjamin Franklin (printer)


I apologize for ranting, but I hate when people put down printers in this business. I respect them. They produce our final work, the final piece. The final print(s).

MikeM

[godzookie2k]

Mike, I'm not sure, but I *think* AD was just joking. Printers and designers have a very symbiotic relationship. One can't live without the other. I have immense respect for my printers, they kick ass. And I think they have an iota of respect for me. At the same time, we have a very playful "****in design monkey, making me print the unprintable", "****in press heads sniffin too much ink, ****in up my layouts" relationship. At some base, minor level we are being serious, but its mostly just joking because we both know each other are telling the truth, and we both know that we need each other. I joke around with my press guys like that all the time. I always thought the whole press guy/designer animosity was just a joke, I always looked at it that way at least. I never realized that some people were actually serious about it. Weird.

[kaboom]

It's funny, whenever I'm working on a job and cursing out a designer for her 'work of art', my friend yells across the room "If they knew what they were doing, you wouldn't have a job."

I keep trying to remind myself of that.
It ain't easy.

[Nathan Adams]

exactly! you're being paid to do it, so stop the complaining.

oh, and mike, since when has being able to draw been a pre-requisite to being a designer? (I'm quite serious)

[gadster]

Very interesting thread.

Firstly, we should define what 'selling' means.

Is it bludgeoning the client over the head with smarm, a slick suit and a toothy grin? No.

Is it convincing the client to go with your solution? Partly.

Is it getting the client to feel comfortable going with your solution? Mostly.

The most important part of the selling process is listening! What is the problem that you are trying to solve? Sometimes you really have to dig to get to the nub of the problem. My favourite question: 'How do you mean?'.

To 'sell', you have to identify what the clients 'pain' is. Only then can you relieve their pain. You cannot second guess what this is, you have to delve. How many lameass sales people go around saying 'we can do it cheaper'? I don't want it cheaper, I want it on time. Or I want it better quality. Or I want you to make my job easier.

Quite often all you need to do is put the client at ease, get them to trust you. And like you, that helps.

If you can do that, they will argue your case to the real decision makers. (More often than not they have to present your stuff internally to their bosses.)

Your 'job' is to make them look good.

Good designers know this as do good printers, plumbers, shoe-shine boys, CEOs etc.

[art_director]

Mike:

go back and read my post. it was a foookin' joke.

since you burdened us with your rant, let me say a few things.

1. it does not take drawing skills to be a good designer. if that's how you measure a designer you don't get this business.

2. college types don't know production? hmmmmmmmmm...because a person went to college that automatically means they don't know how printing works? my, my, in over your head there, sport.

3. can i mix a pantone with cmyk? i have done it but that's not my area. that does not mean i don't understand it or don't have experience with it. i prefer to focus on my expertise rather than be a jack of all trades.

4. what relevence does animating when you were 13 have to do with this thread? i would add that reading one book an animatior does not make.

5. see #4 for the comic book b.s.

6. sorry, can't use dad's occupation to justify your existence.

7. about the paragraph starting with "my point" -- again i direct you to go back and read my post. IT WAS A JOKE. MAYBE YOU SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN SCHOOL LEARNING TO READ RATHER THAN WORKING ON ANIMATION.

8. "I'd probably out-design anything you could come up with on your own anyway." -- not even worthy of a response. clearly you are insecure.

[::maroma::]

Not replying to any particular post.

I feel, and have always felt, that when you come to the table with your design, you better be able to explain, and have damn good reasons for any element you chose to put on that piece. This means, say if a client doesn't like the colors you chose, you have an educated, thought out response as to why you chose those colors and why you thought it was the right choice. Then, if the client still doesn't agree, you've made your case as best you can (both in your design and your reasoning for it), and you go with the client.

But then again, as one of my design professors once told me "if you have to explain it, it shouldn't be there." Meaning if your design can't stand on it's own without someone there to explain things, it's not good design. Remember, design is nothing more than communication. But I do realise (and he did too) that when it comes to the client, explanation to some extent is usually required.