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You are here: MacNN Forums > Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion > iPhone, iPad & iPod > WHEN the iPhone goes 3G, what type of 3G will it be?

WHEN the iPhone goes 3G, what type of 3G will it be? (Page 2)
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Simon
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Apr 9, 2008, 02:31 AM
 
OTOH we also know that previously Apple has not used features that the chipsets would have allowed. In that sense I think we now know we won't be getting more than HSDPA. But it's all but guaranteed we'll get HSDPA.
     
Eug  (op)
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Apr 9, 2008, 10:28 AM
 
I know where you're coming from, I don't see much reason for them to give less than HSDPA in this case (knowing that it's an HSDPA chip), since HSDPA is now the standard, and is already common in even lower end 3G phones. Aiming lower than HSDPA would be a major disappointment to both consumers and investors.

That said, battery life is still a bit of an issue... but mainly for talk time, not standby time. AFAIK, phones with both 3G and GSM generally have about the same standby times on both networks. However, talk time gets reduced by about half on 3G.

I wonder if it's possible to have it set up to default to using GSM for talk and 3G for data.
     
Simon
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Apr 9, 2008, 10:49 AM
 
From 3G Chipset Reference in the SDK? Maybe... Maybe Not - Mac Rumors

While it's not unheard of to see references to unreleased chipsets buried in Apple's software, it seems the interpretation may be a touch optimistic.

First, people have been quick to presume the "SGOLD3" references the the SGOLD3H (PDF) chipset which is a HSDPA 3G chipset, but the actual SGOLD3 (PDF) chipset is not (can add a UMTS coprocessor, however).

Finally, there also appears to be a reference to SGOLD1 -- an older chipset that the iPhone presumably does not use. This could indicate the code is simply generic placeholder rather than referencing any specific plans.
     
analogue SPRINKLES
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Apr 9, 2008, 01:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
However, talk time gets reduced by about half on 3G.
Why? Is that just for voice or video chatting? Why the hell do I want a phone with half the talk time (that I always use) but faster internet (which I rarely use).
     
analogika
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Apr 9, 2008, 01:57 PM
 
^ If that really is the case, then you can be absolutely *sure* that Apple asked themselves the same question, to which the sensible answer is, of course, "Um - make it EDGE, 'kay? We'll still sell enough for a first shot."
     
Eug  (op)
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Apr 9, 2008, 02:31 PM
 
The battery life of chipsets in 2008 are apparently better than they were a year ago. However, that doesn't mean that 3G talk times are equivalent to 2G talk times currently.

I suspect that Apple's choice to use GSM/EDGE in the first iPhone may have been for three main reasons:

1) Battery life <-- Improved with 2008 chipsets
2) Implementation ease and time to market
3) Marketing <-- EDGE was "good enough" for a 1st model, and then they can resell the iPhone again in 2008 with a 3G updated model.



Personally I think EDGE is OK, but definitely not ideal. That's why I wouldn't be impressed with just going to 384 Kbps UMTS either. HSDPA is a big jump over both. I suspect one main reason a lot of people are reasonably happy with their EDGE iPhones is because a lot of the time they're on WiFi. However, having 3.5G HSDPA, EDGE, and WiFi all in the same unit is really quite a nice bonus of course.
     
f1000
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Apr 9, 2008, 03:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
That said, battery life is still a bit of an issue... but mainly for talk time, not standby time. AFAIK, phones with both 3G and GSM generally have about the same standby times on both networks. However, talk time gets reduced by about half on 3G.
I haven't confirmed whether or not this is true, but I can believe it; nevertheless, the improved audio quality of 3G makes any sacrifice in talk time worthwhile.
     
f1000
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Apr 9, 2008, 03:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
The battery life of chipsets in 2008 are apparently better than they were a year ago. However, that doesn't mean that 3G talk times are equivalent to 2G talk times currently.

I suspect that Apple's choice to use GSM/EDGE in the first iPhone may have been for three main reasons:

1) Battery life <-- Improved with 2008 chipsets
2) Implementation ease and time to market
3) Marketing <-- EDGE was "good enough" for a 1st model, and then they can resell the iPhone again in 2008 with a 3G updated model.
I respectfully disagree. I think the real reason Apple left 3G out of the 1st gen iPhone was to prevent AT&T's network from being swamped. 3G on most cell phones is poorly utilized by end users, mostly because of unintuitive interfaces and crappy content. In many ways, 2.5G on the iPhone is being more effectively utilized by end users than the 3G on most competitor phones. I'm sure Apple and AT&T anticipated this possibility and decided to stick with a "governed" 2.5G chipset to prevent users from overloading AT&T's network.
     
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Apr 9, 2008, 03:52 PM
 
^ What's irritating about all of this is that iPhone users still have to pay the same price for service as 3G subscribers, but aren't provided the same network benefits (i.e., 3G). I guess the point is moot, though, since until recently competing 3G devices were barely usable teenage wetdreams of complexity. Who programs these phones anyway, high school dropouts who think adding flame decals on their cars is rad?
     
analogika
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Apr 9, 2008, 03:57 PM
 
No, whole committees of high school dropouts wearing suits who believe that *kids* think that adding flame decals on their cars is rad.
     
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Apr 9, 2008, 04:44 PM
 
O2 says 128Kb/s is all its 3G customers need | Register Hardware

O2 has admitted its 3G customers are limited to 128Kb/s connections, with business users being automatically upgraded to 384Kb/s if they are deemed to warrant it.

3G connection speeds are highly variable, so establishing that the network has imposed a speed limit isn't as easy as it might appear, even though O2 users have long suspected they are being restricted.

384Kb/s is the technical limit of 3G technology, without resorting to HSPDA, but topping out at 128Kb/s is something of an embarrassment for a 3G network. Not that using HSDPA will help the O2 customer, depending on the "profile" O2 has decided to assign to them they might still find themselves allocated only 128Kb/sec.


Well, that's stupid. It basically negates the point of even low end 3G, since even EDGE (at least around here) is faster than that.
     
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Apr 10, 2008, 10:09 AM
 
This was from 1.5 years ago.

Rogers unveils new wireless network - High Speed Downlink Packet Access

A new network aimed at business and high-end personal users is being rolled out today by Rogers Wireless. The new network, called High Speed Downlink Packet Access (HSDPA), is transferring data at 1 megabit per second (Mbps), a speed that is expected to increase to a maximum of 14.4 Mbps, Rogers chief technology officer Bob Berner said Thursday. In contrast, the current high-speed data access offered by Rogers, called EDGE, runs at 120 kilobits per second (Kbps).

EDGE: 120 Kbps
HSDPA: 1 Mbps (at launch)

That's a pretty significant difference.

However, I do know that some people now are (rarely) getting real-world speeds over 5 Mbps (!) on HSDPA. I'd be happy as long as it's over about 0.5 Mbps. Apparently, most people get over about 0.8 Mbps.

On EDGE, people are getting around 0.16ish Mbps real world.
( Last edited by Eug; Apr 10, 2008 at 10:16 AM. )
     
analogue SPRINKLES
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Apr 10, 2008, 01:11 PM
 
Whatever I get with edge it feels faster than dial-up and unless I load a huge as website or watch youtube I rarely even notice the speed.
     
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Apr 10, 2008, 01:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
Whatever I get with edge it feels faster than dial-up
Of course, but that's not saying much.

and unless I load a huge as website or watch youtube I rarely even notice the speed.
Well, that's the point. HSDPA essentially removes the significant remaining bottlenecks for surfing. With HSDPA you should be able to load those huge ass websites and watch YouTube much more smoothly.
     
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Apr 10, 2008, 02:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
With HSDPA you should be able to load those huge ass websites and watch YouTube much more smoothly.
You're not going to want to throw away your cable modem or optical fiber, but yes HSDPA does make the browsing experience much more useful. There are a lot of websites that'll simply time-out with regards to slow connections, rendering those websites all but useless, so more speed will definitely equal more usability.

If you will ever have to tether your laptop to your future 3G iPhone, then you'll really be able to appreciate the extra speed.
     
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Apr 16, 2008, 09:09 AM
 
UMC to fabricate 3G iPhone baseband chip, says paper

United Microelectronics Corporation (UMC) will be the foundry to produce Infineon Technoloiges' 3G baseband chip, which will be used in the new Apple iPhone that supports 3G, according to a Chinese-language Economic Daily News (EDN) report.

X-GOLD 608 - PMB 8878 - Infineon Technologies

     
analogue SPRINKLES
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Apr 16, 2008, 01:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by f1000 View Post
If you will ever have to tether your laptop to your future 3G iPhone, then you'll really be able to appreciate the extra speed.
I don't think too many cell providers are going to offer 3G tethering as tons of people will use it full time as their main internet connection.
     
adamwhite
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Apr 18, 2008, 06:32 PM
 
I don't believe the new 3G iPhone will support the higher upload speed...however it will support the 7.2mbps according to what's been written already.

http://www.3GiPhoneInfo.com
     
f1000
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Apr 19, 2008, 01:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
I don't think too many cell providers are going to offer 3G tethering as tons of people will use it full time as their main internet connection.
I've been tethering to AT&T Wireless / Cingular / AT&T Wireless II for years, and currently tether to AT&T wireless 3G. What you don't think is going to be offered has in fact been available for years.

For all practical purposes, there's almost no way AT&T can discern between tethered versus non-tethered use, so AT&T rarely enforces its own "do not tether" rule. 3G is still no replacement for a hardwire connection, however, as wireless connections can be flakey, latency tends to be high, and bandwidth is still significantly lower than that of the faster broadband connections, so I doubt people with the option of broadband are going to opt for 3G instead.
     
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Apr 21, 2008, 07:51 AM
 
     
analogue SPRINKLES
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Apr 21, 2008, 12:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by f1000 View Post
I've been tethering to AT&T Wireless / Cingular / AT&T Wireless II for years, and currently tether to AT&T wireless 3G. What you don't think is going to be offered has in fact been available for years.
Strange as the only internet plan I can see for the iPhone spesifically says "NO TETHERING".

Where is the iPhone tethering plan please?
     
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Apr 21, 2008, 02:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
Strange as the only internet plan I can see for the iPhone spesifically says "NO TETHERING".

Where is the iPhone tethering plan please?
Funny you should mention that, since your specific data specifically says that phones like the iPhone are not allowed.

"PDAs such as Blackberry or Windows Mobile devices, PC cards and non-Rogers certified devices are not eligible."
     
f1000
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Apr 21, 2008, 04:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
Strange as the only internet plan I can see for the iPhone spesifically says "NO TETHERING".

Where is the iPhone tethering plan please?
Maybe reading comprehension is not your strength, but I made it clear in my post that most people in the know ignore AT&T's "do not tether" prohibition. To me, this prohibition is as pointless as making it illegal to duplicate/rip CD's for personal use.

AFAIK, no one who tethers to occasionally check emails or lightly browse the web has ever been reprimanded, although idiots who try to use their AT&T wireless account as their full-time broadband service and then abuse it by using BitTorrent or other copyright-violating applications may occasionally get their a$$es handed to them.

If you're asking me how one can partake in all of this tethering goodness, then I suggest that you learn to use Search.
     
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Apr 22, 2008, 02:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Funny you should mention that, since your specific data specifically says that phones like the iPhone are not allowed.

"PDAs such as Blackberry or Windows Mobile devices, PC cards and non-Rogers certified devices are not eligible."
Ya well my Provider doesn't even offer iPhones so fail on that argument. And like I said they can easily nail me on it if I was using tethering and downloading 5 gigs a month over the 25 megs I use today

f1000 your reply was so ridiculously over the top smart ass on the internet for a while I thought it was a joke. But I guess you are just angry

Of course tethering is possible DUH. I read about it months ago on the iPhone and I am sure it is as easy as pie to hack up for a reading comprehension genius like yourself. The point is no iPhone plan allows it and I'd love to see how soon you guys think a plan with tethering and the iphone advertised and supported with 50 gig a month limits.

Even if they don't offer it officially see how long you get away with that much data when it replaces your home connection.
     
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Apr 22, 2008, 09:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
Ya well my Provider doesn't even offer iPhones so fail on that argument. And like I said they can easily nail me on it if I was using tethering and downloading 5 gigs a month over the 25 megs I use today
Uh... Bingo.
     
f1000
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Apr 22, 2008, 09:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
f1000 your reply was so ridiculously over the top smart ass on the internet for a while I thought it was a joke. But I guess you are just angry
Not angry...constipated. Hey, $hit happens.

Or sometimes not.
     
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May 2, 2008, 09:22 AM
 
Carphone Warehouse is completely sold out of the iPhone.

MacNN | Carphone Warehouse sells out of 16GB iPhone

They're now sold out of the 16 GB version, and had already sold out of the 8 GB version. Furthermore, they have no intention of getting any more in. They're just gonna wait for the 3G.

P.S. For those who don't know, Carphone Warehouse is the biggest cell retailer in Europe. They have 1700 stores.
     
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May 6, 2008, 09:13 PM
 
August Said to Be Target for New iPhone in Europe

That's a little later than I was hoping, but that would still be OK... if it comes to Canada around that time.

However, it's interesting to note that AT&T is telling its employees that June-July is the time it wants people working.

Apple and AT&#038;T to launch iPhone 3G a lot sooner than we think? | The Boy Genius Report

Perhaps the US could get the iPhone 3G as soon as mid-June.
     
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May 7, 2008, 11:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Perhaps the US could get the iPhone 3G as soon as mid-June.
Sounds about right.

It's about time.
     
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May 7, 2008, 01:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by f1000 View Post
Sounds about right.

It's about time.
A YEAR with shitty 3G carrier coverage is really that long for you? I've had my iPhone since August and it still feels like a brand new top of the line device to me. 3G will be fun but it was worth waiting a short year for the better battery life, size and cost.
     
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May 7, 2008, 01:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by f1000 View Post
Sounds about right.

It's about time.
I get 3 days of battery life out of my 2.5G iPhone. I'd imagine I'd probably be recharging my phone every day if I had 3G. I'm content with the iPhone as is.
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May 7, 2008, 05:27 PM
 
^ Blah, blah, sour grapes. Cingular's 3G coverage in most Metro areas has long been un-shitty, especially in the Northeast. A reasonably priced 3G iPhone is going to rock & roll in the marketplace. And as I've stated several times before, you guys are drinking the Cool-Aid if you really believe 3G was left out of the iPhone for technical reasons. AT&T, in collaboration with Apple, has been charging you full price for a fraction of the bandwidth.
     
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May 7, 2008, 05:47 PM
 
I never said 3G was left out for technical reasons. I'm just saying I'm perfectly content with EDGE. You're drinking the 3G kool-aid if you think it'll really give you the speeds you want. O2 caps their 3G networks; if a 3G iPhone were released, considering the extent of data usage that occurs on EDGE from iPhone users, AT&T will have to cap the bandwidth or implement a reasonable limit. Don't start whining about battery life when a 3G iPhone comes out, either.
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May 11, 2008, 10:43 AM
 
I find it interesting that now the 3G iJesusPhone is coming, the 2.5G iPhone is no longer available. I wonder if they're scrapping the non-3G phones entirely, or if it's going to get a new cheaper redesign for the lower end crowd.

Of course, the big question for me is whether or not I'll be able to use it here. I'd need either:

A) A native Rogers or Fido iPhone

or

B) A hack, and who knows how long that will take.


Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
Ya well my Provider doesn't even offer iPhones so fail on that argument. And like I said they can easily nail me on it if I was using tethering and downloading 5 gigs a month over the 25 megs I use today
So, Rogers is now saying they're going to crack down on unauthorized use (like with the iPhone). Idle threat? I wonder, but it doesn't seem like they're referring just to tethering.
     
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May 13, 2008, 11:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
So, Rogers is now saying they're going to crack down on unauthorized use (like with the iPhone). Idle threat? I wonder, but it doesn't seem like they're referring just to tethering.
They said that it would be in effect on May 12th and that I would get a notice by text message. No text messages came.
     
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May 14, 2008, 12:14 PM
 
Good luck.

However, you had registered a Blackberry on that account though right? For me, I have no true so-called smartphones on my account.
     
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May 14, 2008, 11:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Good luck.

However, you had registered a Blackberry on that account though right? For me, I have no true so-called smartphones on my account.
Ya but I canceled it almost a year ago and they know it is not on my account. Plus all my other friends who also never had a smartphone haven't got a text message warning yet.
     
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May 15, 2008, 12:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
August Said to Be Target for New iPhone in Europe

That's a little later than I was hoping, but that would still be OK... if it comes to Canada around that time.

However, it's interesting to note that AT&T is telling its employees that June-July is the time it wants people working.

Apple and AT&#038;T to launch iPhone 3G a lot sooner than we think? | The Boy Genius Report

Perhaps the US could get the iPhone 3G as soon as mid-June.
That would be great since I am considering buying one. Guess I will just hold out a bit longer.
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May 15, 2008, 03:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
I find it interesting that now the 3G iJesusPhone is coming, the 2.5G iPhone is no longer available. I wonder if they're scrapping the non-3G phones entirely, or if it's going to get a new cheaper redesign for the lower end crowd.
Why should they bother?

The only place they could *possibly* still sell a 2.5G iPhone if they also offer a 3G phone *might* be the U.S.
     
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May 15, 2008, 10:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by analogika View Post
Why should they bother?

The only place they could *possibly* still sell a 2.5G iPhone if they also offer a 3G phone *might* be the U.S.
But they could probably sell a lot of them in the U.S., if they can push the price low enough. I'm sure plenty of people a) lust for an iPhone, b) balk at spending $400 or more on a phone (and don't necessarily notice when refurbs are available), and c) don't really quite get what this 3G thing is (and probably can find plenty of places with Wi-fi).
     
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May 15, 2008, 12:04 PM
 
Time for a reality check!

Apple is...
• a company that likes selling inexpensive low-end options alongside their more expensive products
• a company that likes selling the hottest gadgets regardless of the price

Apple likes...
• low prices to increase market share
• selling high-end products to a small market

Unless Apple has somehow dramatically changed, the 2.5G iPhone is definitely a goner.
     
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May 15, 2008, 12:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
Time for a reality check!

Apple is...
• a company that likes selling inexpensive low-end options alongside their more expensive products
• a company that likes selling the hottest gadgets regardless of the price

Apple likes...
• low prices to increase market share
• selling high-end products to a small market

Unless Apple has somehow dramatically changed, the 2.5G iPhone is definitely a goner.
     
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May 15, 2008, 12:18 PM
 
So the shuffle was a rebranded version of a previous generation iPod?
     
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May 15, 2008, 12:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
So the shuffle was a rebranded version of a previous generation iPod?
Moving the goal posts now are we?
     
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May 15, 2008, 12:34 PM
 
Not at all. I'm simply convinced once Apple releases a brand new 3G iPhone they will stop selling the previous version (and they actually already have in some countries). A new "iPhone lite" alongside the iPhone? Maybe. But they will not keep the present version around just to have something like a "poor man's iPhone". That's my prediction. We'll know for certain by WWDC.
     
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May 15, 2008, 12:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
Not at all. I'm simply convinced once Apple releases a brand new 3G iPhone they will stop selling the previous version (and they actually already have in some countries). A new "iPhone lite" alongside the iPhone? Maybe. But they will not keep the present version around just to have something like a "poor man's iPhone". That's my prediction. We'll know for certain by WWDC.
OK, but that's not quite what you said. You said there would be no more 2.5G iPhone once the 3G lands.

Anyways, I personally do agree we could see an iPhone lite 2.5G alongside the 3G. However, I won't rule out the possibility of a 2.5G that is very similar to the 3G. A 2.5G iPhone would still suite some North American markets than a 3G. Remember, Apple's iPod market was to saturate the market in terms of share. And they have largely been successful at that. I definitely see Apple wanting to replicate that with its iPhone platform. (And if not Apple, then certainly its investors.)

Luckily, I live in an area where 3G would be preferred but 2.5G is ubiquitous too, so I am free to choose.
     
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May 15, 2008, 12:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
OK, but that's not quite what you said. You said there would be no more 2.5G iPhone once the 3G lands.
I was referring to the current iPhone. I'm not saying there will never be a new 2.5G iPhone lite, but I'm convinced the current 2.5G iPhone is a thing of the past.

To be honest, I'm also skeptical of a 2.5G iPhone lite. Apple originally didn't want to do a special iPhone version for the US, why should they want to now?
     
slugslugslug
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May 15, 2008, 01:21 PM
 
I should've pointed out that I wasn't necessarily saying I think Apple will keep an EDGE model in the lineup. I just think that if they did, they could certainly find plenty of buyers.

I'm pretty sure that they're already thinking about expanding the product line into lower price ranges, but I'm not necessarily convinced that it's imminent. On the other hand, I'd be surprised if we didn't see a $200 iPhone model by, say, end of 2009.
     
analogika
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May 15, 2008, 08:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
Time for a reality check!

Apple likes...
• low prices to increase market share
• selling high-end products to a small market
In the case of iPhone, Apple has been doing *both* in Europe, for those exact reasons: first the latter, then the former (when market share didn't develop as planned due to the radically different Euro market).

However, a non-3G model in 2008 is just a complete no-go in Europe.
     
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May 16, 2008, 03:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by analogika View Post
In the case of iPhone, Apple has been doing *both* in Europe, for those exact reasons: first the latter, then the former (when market share didn't develop as planned due to the radically different Euro market).
Yeah, I agree with you. The non-3G made it virtually impossible to sell this phone in Europe for €500 and hence the price drop. Had the iPhone been 3G right from the start in Europe I doubt we would have seen the same cuts. OTOH if Apple changes its distribution strategy and carriers start subsidizing the device heavily we might get to see lower iPhone prices alongside 3G.

Assuming carriers actually do that, will this be the end of inexpensive iPhone flat rate data plans? I mean one of the incentives for carriers to lur people to the iPhone would be the large amount of data traffic they generate. I imagine carriers would want to generate more revenue than the current $20/month if they're going to sell unlimited 3G.
     
 
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