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Apollo 14 astronaut claims aliens HAVE made contact (Page 3)
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Horsepoo!!!
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Jul 29, 2008, 02:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cthulhu View Post
n00b
I know...my experience pales in comparison to other top notch journalists.
     
f1000
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Jul 29, 2008, 02:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
People will gradually know the truth despite the United States' best efforts to keep this secret to push their agenda on the world.
The ONLY truth that I know of are the scientific "truths" that have been verifiably demonstrated time and time again. Our daily lives revolve around these scientific truths, and yet these scientific truths basically tell us that interstellar space travel is all but impossible. Why resort to conspiracies when plain-old physics tells us that alien visitation is bunk? You have a child-like mentality when you believe all the world's problems (and solutions) lay in the hands of others, whether nefarious human superiors, aliens, or vaporous deities.

Seriously, do you think that pathetic human dictators and organizations could stop aliens who can travel faster than lightspeed or warp space and time from dropping in to shop at the Gap?
     
Horsepoo!!!
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Jul 29, 2008, 02:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by f1000 View Post
The ONLY truth that I know of are the scientific "truths" that have been verifiably demonstrated time and time again. Our daily lives revolve around these scientific truths, and yet these scientific truths basically tell us that interstellar space travel is all but impossible. Why resort to conspiracies when plain-old physics tells us that alien visitation is bunk? You have a child-like mentality when you believe all the world's problems (and solutions) lay in the hands of others, whether nefarious human superiors, aliens, or vaporous deities.

Seriously, do you think that pathetic human dictators and organizations could stop aliens who can travel faster than lightspeed or warp space and time from dropping in to shop at the Gap?
Interstellar space travel is impossible? Can you repeat that? I'm not sure I understand what you mean or how you are getting to that conclusion.

So physics is flawless? We've reached the peak of our knowledge? Who's the child?

No, I do not believe pathetic human dictators and orgs could stop aliens who can travel faster than lightspeed or warp space and time from dropping in to shop at the Gap. I truly believe that they could stop at the Gap for their clothing needs if they so wanted to.
     
design219
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Jul 29, 2008, 02:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
So I ask AGAIN, how many people does it take and what must their credentials be for some observed event to become empirical evidence?
Well, first off, this astronaut doesn't claim to be an eye witness to aliens. Second, even if he was, just being an astronaut, scientist or whatever doesn't make someone a more credible eye witness.

People have come to believe many things throughout history that are simply not true... faith healings, psychic projection, spontanious human combustion, ghosts, magic, etc., etc.

I, for one, would like some credible footage. Much better than talk.
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f1000
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Jul 29, 2008, 02:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
Really? So you're saying that when people are trying to save endangered species they're really in it to cultivate it and eat them?

Have these nuclear devices been detonated to kill people? Come on, don't be shy...answer my question.
Humans are a selfish species. We save species because we are afraid of what might happen to us if we let them vanish. Also, some morons have a God-complex and just like the thought of saving "wild" beasts to boost their own egos. Every once in a while we read about one of these egomaniacs having his testicles chewed off after getting into a torrid argument with his rare pet chimp/tiger.

As for the nuclear devices, I'm sure the Pakistanis and Indians tested their nukes recently to promote peace and understanding on the subcontinent.
     
Horsepoo!!!
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Jul 29, 2008, 02:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by design219 View Post
I, for one, would like some credible footage. Much better than talk.
You and I both know that credible footage will be discredited.

There is a ton of credible footage out there. But it's all CGI, right? Or humidity on the lens. Or debris. Or particles.
     
design219
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Jul 29, 2008, 02:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
You and I both know that credible footage will be discredited.

There is a ton of credible footage out there. But they're CGI, right?
If you're refering to that huge tether thing, then there is no credible footage of anything but debris and optical out-of-focus effects. Speculation was blown up over nothing, and I really beleave that's where most of this alien mythology comes from. Typical footage of "aliens."
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f1000
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Jul 29, 2008, 02:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
Interstellar space travel is impossible? Can you repeat that? I'm not sure I understand what you mean or how you are getting to that conclusion. "
I did say ALL but impossible. English not your first language?

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
Interstellar space travel is impossible? Can you repeat that? I'm not sure I understand what you mean or how you are getting to that conclusion. "So physics is flawless? We've reached the peak of our knowledge? Who's the child?
Don't put words in my mouth. Our increasing understanding of the universe has resulted in refined formulas, but it's becoming increasingly rare for formulas to be completely contradicted. I'm quite confident that the majority of us will be stuck on this dirt speck for all eternity, forever in thrall to the Earth's (and the Sun's) gravity.
     
Horsepoo!!!
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Jul 29, 2008, 02:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by f1000 View Post
Don't put words in my mouth. Our increasing understanding of the universe has resulted in refined formulas, but it's becoming increasingly rare for formulas to be completely contradicted. I'm quite confident that the majority of us will be stuck on this dirt speck for all eternity, forever in thrall to the Earth's (and the Sun's) gravity.
Can I see these refined formulas?
     
f1000
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Jul 29, 2008, 02:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
So...are you admitting NASA is an incompetent organization?
NASA may have hired perfectly rational astronauts whose behaviors degenerated over time. Given NASA's mandate, it's done a very good job overall for being incompetent.

When you can demonstrate a working interstellar spacecraft and come back with evidence that you scored some Arcturian poon-tang, then we'll talk.
     
Horsepoo!!!
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Jul 29, 2008, 02:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by f1000 View Post
NASA may have hired perfectly rational astronauts whose behaviors degenerated over time. Given NASA's mandate, it's done a very good job overall for being incompetent.

When you can demonstrate a working interstellar spacecraft and come back with evidence that you scored some Arcturian poon-tang, then we'll talk.
You want me to demonstrate a working interstellar spacecraft and having sex with an alien before you'll show me the refined formulas? Kinky.
     
f1000
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Jul 29, 2008, 02:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
You want me to demonstrate a working interstellar spacecraft and having sex with an alien before you'll show me the refined formulas? Kinky.
OR the basis for a hit NBC family show:

     
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Jul 29, 2008, 03:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
I haven't...I asked a simple question and nobody answered it. I thought *you* and your friends had given up.

You even quote my question and never bother to answer it:

So I ask AGAIN, how many people does it take and what must their credentials be for some observed event to become empirical evidence? You say that ET life requires greater proof, well, how many scientists/astronauts/pilots should it take before the same observed phenomenon becomes true?

There are observed reports out there that count more than one witness. From more than one location. Verified by radar. This was not a one-time event. These reports are reproduced again. Every day. Multiple times a day. By Joe Normal as well as scientists, astronauts, pilots, meteorologist, astronomers, police officers.
It's not about the sheer quantity of people who make a claim. Nor is it about the type of people who make a claim (the appeal to authority fallacy). It is about the validity of the claim and how it is verified. You talk about multiple witnesses and multiple locations and [sightings] verified by radar. So, show us all this verifiable evidence.

Show us a single episode where there are multiple documented photographs taken of a craft from different individuals in different locations. (i.e.: different, un-related people in the same general geographic area happened to look up at the sky at the same time and see the same UFO. And these different, un-related people happened to take pictures of said UFO.)

Show us that these individuals did nothing to their images to alter them.
(If they were smart they would have submitted their camera to a forensic analysis after taking pictures of the UFO.)

For claims of radar evidence, show us the radar tracks/logs from multiple different radar sites. Show us the data that confirms the radar tracks are sweeping the same area and identify the same object in the same part of the sky.

All this should be completely doable. If there was a UFO sighting at location A and multiple groups of people saw this sighting and took pictures of this UFO, then there should be a very easy way to interview separately those folks from location A, collect any images they have, and put all the info on the web. Is there a website that does this? Is there a web site that actually uses the scientific method to verify claims about UFO sightings and then posts the verified information on the web for others to see, critique, and analyze? If so, tell us about it.


Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
So are you going to tell me that a bunch scientists that peer through a electron microscope to tell the world of their observations are more trustworthy than scientists, astronauts, pilots, meteorologist, astronomers that see a flying saucer or triangular craft with visual and radar data?
Yes. Because of those two little words that seems to escape your vocabulary, verifiability and reproducibility. Any claim made by a scientist peering through an electron microscope can be verified and reproduced by any other scientist with a similar electron microscope. (FYI. Scientists don't actually look through any kind of optical lens with an electron microscope, all the imaging is done with a beam of electrons that are detected and processed after hitting the object under examination. Then an image appears on a computer screen after being digitally processed.)

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
That's selective trust. And it's bullshit. You know it. Chuckit knows it. analogika knows it.

You only trust what fits in your system of beliefs. It's sad.
Nice personal attack. As for me, I do believe in the existence of alien life. I think this is the fourth or fifth time I have said so* but I don't believe they have been here yet based on evidence that I have seen.


*Since you raised the question of selective trust, when will you trust me when I say that I believe in the existence of aliens.
(Or does belief in the existence of aliens require belief in every claim made as to their visits here on earth?)
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Horsepoo!!!
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Jul 29, 2008, 04:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
It's not about the sheer quantity of people who make a claim. Nor is it about the type of people who make a claim (the appeal to authority fallacy). It is about the validity of the claim and how it is verified. You talk about multiple witnesses and multiple locations and [sightings] verified by radar. So, show us all this verifiable evidence.

Show us a single episode where there are multiple documented photographs taken of a craft from different individuals in different locations. (i.e.: different, un-related people in the same general geographic area happened to look up at the sky at the same time and see the same UFO. And these different, un-related people happened to take pictures of said UFO.)
Is that also how you got through school? Bullying people to do your homework? "Show me that 1+1=2"

There are lots of documentaries out there. You can also read up on the recent Stephenville sighting and read the MUFON reports and get the radar data yourself. I'm not going to fetch you your sandwich because you don't feel like it. If you don't do it yourself, you'll never try to learn and you'll just keep demanding me to do your homework.

Show us that these individuals did nothing to their images to alter them.
(If they were smart they would have submitted their camera to a forensic analysis after taking pictures of the UFO.)
Get the pictures yourself and get them analyzed. Find something that is credible...find the person who took the picture...and ask him for the negatives if it's a film camera or ask them for the original digital picture and do your own work.

Even if I did all this work myself, it would do no effect to change your mind. If you want to believe it, you'll have to do this work yourself.

For claims of radar evidence, show us the radar tracks/logs from multiple different radar sites. Show us the data that confirms the radar tracks are sweeping the same area and identify the same object in the same part of the sky.
The Disclosure Project has had many people talk about this...contact them yourself. I have...you can too. They have a lot of radar data. Mexico has a phenomenal amount of visual observations confirmed by radar data.

All this should be completely doable.
Yup, it definitely is. But you won't believe unless *you* spend the time digging it up yourself.

If there was a UFO sighting at location A and multiple groups of people saw this sighting and took pictures of this UFO, then there should be a very easy way to interview separately those folks from location A, collect any images they have, and put all the info on the web. Is there a website that does this? Is there a web site that actually uses the scientific method to verify claims about UFO sightings and then posts the verified information on the web for others to see, critique, and analyze? If so, tell us about it.
There are many...I personally like http://www.ufoinfo.com.

Yes. Because of those two little words that seems to escape your vocabulary, verifiability and reproducibility. Any claim made by a scientist peering through an electron microscope can be verified and reproduced by any other scientist with a similar electron microscope. (FYI. Scientists don't actually look through any kind of optical lens with an electron microscope, all the imaging is done with a beam of electrons that are detected and processed after hitting the object under examination. Then an image appears on a computer screen after being digitally processed.)


Nice personal attack. As for me, I do believe in the existence of alien life. I think this is the fourth or fifth time I have said so* but I don't believe they have been here yet based on evidence that I have seen.
Because you don't take the time to look at the evidence.

*Since you raised the question of selective trust, when will you trust me when I say that I believe in the existence of aliens.
(Or does belief in the existence of aliens require belief in every claim made as to their visits here on earth?)
I trust that you believe in the existence of aliens. And it does not require belief in every claim made as to their visits here on Earth. But dig enough and I'm sure you'll find some claim that is believable.

Burden of proof is on the person that makes extra-ordinary claims, right? Someone will undoubtedly say this to me at one point in this thread. Well it's not. The proof is out there, I'm not required to give it. It might look slightly discrediting that I don't prove that ETs have been visiting Earth but that's like arguing with someone about how the sun works like a fusion reactor and that person says "prove it" and doesn't believe me because he can't look up the facts him or herself.

I've said it many times in different threads: if you're not going to do your own homework on this, none of what I say will sway you. I could bring you a piece of flying saucer debris and it won't change a thing.
( Last edited by Horsepoo!!!; Jul 29, 2008 at 04:22 PM. )
     
design219
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Jul 29, 2008, 04:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
As for me, I do believe in the existence of alien life.
I too believe. I think the unimaginable size of the universe, number of stars and the daily growing list of discovered planets make it very, very likely that life has originated more than once. I don't think we're all that special.

But I have extreme doubts about contact.

Putting aside the lack of credible evidence, the shear distance between the stars and the short lifespan of intelligent civilization (in our case, only about 10,000 years, and only about 50 space technology years) makes contact astronomically unlikely.
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Horsepoo!!!
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Jul 29, 2008, 04:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by design219 View Post
I too believe. I think the unimaginable size of the universe, number of stars and the daily growing list of discovered planets make it very, very likely that life has originated more than once. I don't think we're all that special.

But I have extreme doubts about contact.

Putting aside the lack of credible evidence, the shear distance between the stars and the short lifespan of intelligent civilization (in our case, only about 10,000 years, and only about 50 space technology years) makes contact astronomically unlikely.
Our solar system is surrounded by neighbor solar systems. There are hundreds upon hundreds of stars within 60 light years of our solar system. Many of them having the same characteristics as our own sun. Stars with planets orbiting them.

Are you saying these planets have no chance of being habited? 60 light years is not very far. Especially if you consider that these stars are sometimes a billion years older than our sun and considering that time slows for the person traveling near the speed of light.

60 years for the observer could be a few minutes in the life of the person traveling near light speed. (This of course assuming that light speed can't be reached or surpassed.)
     
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Jul 29, 2008, 04:51 PM
 
Welcome to our fortress tall
Take some time to show you around
Impossible to break these walls
For you see the steel is much too strong
Computer banks to rule the world
Instruments to sight the stars

Possibly I've seen to much
Hangar 18 I know too much

Foreign life forms inventory
Suspended state of cryogenics
Selective amnesia's the story
Believed foretold but who'd suspect
Military intelligence
Two words combined that can't make sense

Possibly I've seen to much
Hangar 18 I know too much
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Jul 29, 2008, 05:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
Show me the evidence. (Let this be an exercise. I want people to understand what 'evidence' is.)
Evidence is consensus. Is that what you're looking to do? Get somebody to allow for the limitations of all evidence? Obviously, we must reach a threshold after which a certain amount of evidence becomes credible. I have seen pictures of Greenland, I have read about the existence of Greenland countless times, and for my part, I have seen Greenland first hand, roughly where I expected it to be, while flying over the North Atlantic. The evidence exists and its verifiable by getting on a plane yourself or a boat trip, or whatever.

The "evidence" for aliens is pretty spurious. A bunch of suspect first-person accounts and a number of phenomenon which do not directly support belief in the presence of extraterrestrials.

Now, for some people the weight of those two evidence pools might be comparable, but the latter will never pass muster by creating a consensus within any reputable scientific group.

What makes a group reputable? Well, that they believe in Greenland would be a good start.
     
design219
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Jul 29, 2008, 05:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
Are you saying these planets have no chance of being habited?
No, I'm not saying that at all. But we have only been worth contacting for about the last 50 or so years. We probably will destroy ourselves or go extinct within the next 10-50 thousand years. The odds of two civilizations lining up in time is very slim.

Add to that, even though 60 light years is (relatively) close, it is unimaginably far for human travel. Even if light speed were possible, which according to Einstein is not, then it would take a lifetime.

And then there is the which star do you go to. There are a lot to choose from, and if you choose wrong... really bad luck.

I'm not saying impossible, but extremely improbable.
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dcmacdaddy
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Jul 29, 2008, 07:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
Is that also how you got through school? Bullying people to do your homework? "Show me that 1+1=2"

There are lots of documentaries out there. You can also read up on the recent Stephenville sighting and read the MUFON reports and get the radar data yourself. I'm not going to fetch you your sandwich because you don't feel like it. If you don't do it yourself, you'll never try to learn and you'll just keep demanding me to do your homework.



Get the pictures yourself and get them analyzed. Find something that is credible...find the person who took the picture...and ask him for the negatives if it's a film camera or ask them for the original digital picture and do your own work.

Even if I did all this work myself, it would do no effect to change your mind. If you want to believe it, you'll have to do this work yourself.



The Disclosure Project has had many people talk about this...contact them yourself. I have...you can too. They have a lot of radar data. Mexico has a phenomenal amount of visual observations confirmed by radar data.



Yup, it definitely is. But you won't believe unless *you* spend the time digging it up yourself.



There are many...I personally like http://www.ufoinfo.com.



Because you don't take the time to look at the evidence.



I trust that you believe in the existence of aliens. And it does not require belief in every claim made as to their visits here on Earth. But dig enough and I'm sure you'll find some claim that is believable.

Burden of proof is on the person that makes extra-ordinary claims, right? Someone will undoubtedly say this to me at one point in this thread. Well it's not. The proof is out there, I'm not required to give it. It might look slightly discrediting that I don't prove that ETs have been visiting Earth but that's like arguing with someone about how the sun works like a fusion reactor and that person says "prove it" and doesn't believe me because he can't look up the facts him or herself.

I've said it many times in different threads: if you're not going to do your own homework on this, none of what I say will sway you. I could bring you a piece of flying saucer debris and it won't change a thing.
NONE of this is "my homework". You are making a claim so you need to provide the evidence to back it up. It is really as simple as that. If I cam on here making a claim about the performance of my car and people doubted my claims, I would need to come back with proof of my claims. Just like Laminar did in the thread about how he has modified his car. He showed an image of the dyno report. So, if anyone were to doubt him still, he could maybe show a video of the dyno's screen as it was registering his car's horsepower output. That is yet another piece of evidence. So, if you want your claims to be believed, show us evidence and verification and validation for that evidence. Showing us video clips of a piece of material floating in space and saying it has to be UFOs is not verifiable evidence. Unless you have other footage from space, of the same occurrence, say from a different angle. That second piece of evidence could then be used to verify the first piece of evidence.

But yes, it is all up to you to show proof of your claim. To do otherwise just makes you a troll.
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Jul 29, 2008, 07:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
I personally like http://www.ufoinfo.com.
Now that is an interesting site.

Here is a link from a sighting in Australia that purports to have multiple separate, un-related witnesses.
http://www.ufoinfo.com/sightings/australia/080723.shtml

And here is a link from another similar sighting later in the same day.
http://www.ufoinfo.com/sightings/aus.../080723a.shtml

So, this is a good start. Now if the person in the first link does get their photos sent to the site the we will have more info. With this particular instance we do have some basic verifiability. Although, the person in the first post said there were several car-fulls of people who pulled off the road to have a look. It would be good if the rest of those folks sent in their version of events as well. More data for the verification means a greater likelihood for validation, or at least ruling out the possibility of a singe source.

This type of process is *exactly* what I am talking about and if more people took this seriously we might have a better chance and determining the validity of some of these claims.
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Jul 29, 2008, 07:59 PM
 
I for one would love to live to see us be openly contacted by ET life from another planet. How friggin cool would that be? Human relation to religion and philosophy would be changed forever. It could possibly lift us up to a higher plane of existence. It could also drive us to a quick extinction. Either way, I'd love to be alive if/when that happens.

I think anyone who patently dismisses the possibility of highly intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe is being very arrogant. The chances that another civilization has evolved many (perhaps hundreds of billions) years beyond our own are slim, but nonetheless possible. Think of how much the human race has evolved technologically in our short existence. Simply thinking of how many years we humans spent with primitive stone tools, compared to where we've gone since then is mind blowing. We're moving at a ridiculously fast pace, and the possibilities of expanding our knowledge of the Universe is endless. We invent new things every day to help us discover new things, or understand things better. Every time we think we pretty much know it all about something, we find out we aren't even close.

I hope Horsepoo!! is right, and we indeed find that we are not alone, and in fact we are quite primitive in the grand scheme of things within our lifetimes. I believe that will do our species a great deal of good, perhaps even save us from ourselves.

Up above
Aliens hover
Making home movies
For the folks back home

Of all these weird creatures
Who lock up their spirits
Drill holes in themselves
And live for their secrets
...
I wish that they'd swoop down in a country lane
Late at night when I'm driving
Take me on board their beautiful ship
Show me the world as I'd love to see it

I'd tell all my friends
But they'd never believe
They'd think that I'd finally lost it completely

I'd show them the stars
And the meaning of life
They'd shut me away
But I'd be all right
     
BasketofPuppies
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Jul 29, 2008, 08:12 PM
 
What I want to know is, why do aliens travel light years just to abduct humans, probe them anally and release them?

It seems kind of pointless. After 50 years of performing anal probes, all they could have learned is that one in 10 doesn't really seem to mind.

Also, shouldn't aliens at least abduct our political or religious leaders instead of just any idiot in a pickup truck?
inscrutable impenetrable impregnable inconceivable
     
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Jul 29, 2008, 08:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by BasketofPuppies View Post
Also, shouldn't aliens at least abduct our political or religious leaders instead of just any idiot in a pickup truck?
Are you dismissing the possibility that aliens ARE our religious and political leaders?
     
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Jul 29, 2008, 08:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by BasketofPuppies View Post
What I want to know is, why do aliens travel light years just to abduct humans, probe them anally and release them?

It seems kind of pointless. After 50 years of performing anal probes, all they could have learned is that one in 10 doesn't really seem to mind.
Maybe anal probing is the alien equivalent of having a seal balance a ball on its head — we're not really learning anything from it anymore, but it just never seems to get old.
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Jul 30, 2008, 05:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
NONE of this is "my homework". You are making a claim so you need to provide the evidence to back it up. It is really as simple as that. If I cam on here making a claim about the performance of my car and people doubted my claims, I would need to come back with proof of my claims. Just like Laminar did in the thread about how he has modified his car. He showed an image of the dyno report. So, if anyone were to doubt him still, he could maybe show a video of the dyno's screen as it was registering his car's horsepower output. That is yet another piece of evidence. So, if you want your claims to be believed, show us evidence and verification and validation for that evidence. Showing us video clips of a piece of material floating in space and saying it has to be UFOs is not verifiable evidence. Unless you have other footage from space, of the same occurrence, say from a different angle. That second piece of evidence could then be used to verify the first piece of evidence.
Indeed.

As it was, there is a comparable video available, and what that does is VERIFY that the type of camera used for the "tether" video is prone to producing optical artifacts in low light that look EXACTLY like the supposed "UFOs". In that case, evidence gathered with comparable equipment under comparable circumstances verifies that the video does NOT show alien craft, at all.
     
Lava Lamp Freak
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Jul 30, 2008, 10:12 AM
 
The Black Vault website has been around for a while. I remember seeing the guy who started it on TV many years ago.

http://www.theblackvault.com/
http://www.theblackvault.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
     
 
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