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Why do you believe what you believe? (Page 3)
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el chupacabra
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Aug 4, 2011, 02:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Strictly speaking, it would be more scientifically accurate to say "there is no scientific evidence to prove it exists, therefore there is no reason to believe it does."
Let me put this into perspective: Thats like saying "there's no scientific evidence to prove pesticides cause cancer, therefore there is no reason to believe they do". The part in bold is logically correct statement, just like the 1st part of your statement is correct; But this would be a false conclusion because the reality is there is scientific evidence to suggest (not prove) some pesticides can cause cancer. You see there doesn't need to be evidence that proves something in order for it to possibly be true.
Would you say you distrust science or scientists? Do you feel any animosity towards science?
I am a scientist, a biologist who's worked in the medical field, energy, and in my free time volunteer as a marine biologist researching ocean plankton and chemistry; in the name of conservation. Science is my favorite subject. All I meant was that since the beginning of time god is considered a metaphysical character; scientific method wasn't designed to address the metaphysical. We use it to make one physical entity interact with another then write down the reaction. We use is to observe the physical world and modify our environment. I have never heard of any of my colleagues come up with a scientific experiment to address god. Thats not the purpose of science.

Were you tempted to stick with Buddhism at all?
I never gave it up. Buddhism is a follow-your-own-path philosophy so it's not mutually exclusive with other religions.
I was under the impression that many if not most gang members were believers. Surely most hispanic gangs are?
People who commit the atrocities I outlined obviously aren't very god fearing. I highly doubt the Hispanic gangs have read even 15 pages of the bible, or attend church. Simply believing in a god doesn't constitute a believer in my opinion, it's just a form of agnosticism.
Muslims are well known for beheading people on the internet as well as cutting off people hands when they are caught stealing (I confess I do not know if this one is true or not).
There might be a few heads being chopped off here and there with muslims. But with my study of history combined with life experiences atheism has brought incomparable tragedy. Atheism brought us communism which made quick work of over a hundred million people. From the communists themselves, the reason they did it was to irradiate religion; since the moral system was incompatible with their beliefs. People can say "crusades" "crusades!" but none of that compares; crusades didn't have mass graves. Big atheism even made the holocaust look like childs play. And that's not the only example.

Do you believe morality specifically requires a judeo-christian god?
No
Was morality justifiably different or simply absent in the past?
Probably both. But let me prove the most extreme case; absent. I like to explain human nature in terms of tribalism. Humans have been tribal for most of their existence; ~800,000 years or so. Much of our primitive desires and the way we act can be explained by how we evolved from tribal creatures. So the question is did tribal people have a better moral system than the current mainstream religion. Take the native americans for example. The probably treated each other within the tribe a lot better than people treat each other today in big cities. This is because they had a more personal connection with members of their own tribe whereas people in city life feel more anonymous/disconnected from their actions with others and hence engage in more careless acts. On the other hand tribal people used to go to war and fight for no reason at all, killing the men, enslaving the kids, and raping the women. There was plenty of resources so we know they weren't fighting over that. If you had been born into a tribe, you would be establishing your warrior-ship by how many skulls or scalps you had from people you killed just for fun. And when people got to old or weak to work, you would outcast them to die like a communist. This isn't unique to native americans... it's all tribes even the European. It reminds of Lord of the flies where one of the kids says "we should climb the mountain and build a fire", when questioned as to why he says "what else are we gonna do" ... and eventually they all start killing each other for fun.
So when an atheist says "morals are innate we all agree that murder and rape is wrong" I think the burden of proof is on them. People aren't giving credit were credit is due. The organized religions as much as you may hate them, gave you the idea of morals; and if your agnostic... they gave you idea of god in general. Its not something you'd just come up with on your own.


Much of this is news to me, but surely if these people believed in demons, they also believed in god?
No, many of their beliefs are more superstitious oriented. They believe demons/deities hurt people for fun and to please them they worship them and commit gruesome acts. Not every culture/religion believe in a 'good' god. This is true of many African religions today; they still commit human sacrifices and sell human body parts on the black market. Its very common actually.

Meerkats co-operate within their packs to fight other packs. Wolves, dolphins and lions co-operate to hunt. Lions, elephants and many primates will guard each others young from dangers and some primates will nurse each others young.
I don't think wolves/lions/dolphins co-opertae to hunt out of altruism. Its really their best chance for their own survival. Once they get the prey, it's every wolf for himself, if one doesn't get to eat that's too bad. Elephants won't guard the baby of another parade/herd; they dont empathy for one they dont know. And even if a baby of their own herd gets injured or stuck in a mud hole only the parents will help it.

lpkmckenna
I think this post is pathetically cynical. And you aren't impressed by modern civilization, but you think the "depth" of the Bible is beyond human beings?
Yes thats exactly what I said...

Let me expound just for fun.
If aliens had kidnapped you and hyteckit when you were babies and put you on a planet just like earth by yourselves as an experiment; it is doubtful that in your entire lifetime; and with all your hyper-intellectual mental capacity combined you would ever conceive something as simple as the wheel. Think about it.

All you guys look around and are so proud of humans accomplishments yet don't see the big picture. Humans have one unique adaptation. The ability to copy the inventions of the few smart people, and make slight improvements. Even with all the millions of people in native US America... None came up with the wheel. The wheel is something just a few of the smartest people in the world came up with... by chance from time to time... and others copies it. Don't overestimate human mental capacity.
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Aug 4, 2011, 02:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Let me expound just for fun.
If aliens had kidnapped you and hyteckit when you were babies and put you on a planet just like earth by yourselves as an experiment; it is doubtful that in your entire lifetime; and with all your hyper-intellectual mental capacity combined you would ever conceive something as simple as the wheel. Think about it.

All you guys look around and are so proud of humans accomplishments yet don't see the big picture. Humans have one unique adaptation. The ability to copy the inventions of the few smart people, and make slight improvements. Even with all the millions of people in native US America... None came up with the wheel. The wheel is something just a few of the smartest people in the world came up with... by chance from time to time... and others copies it. Don't overestimate human mental capacity.
You're deriding the human ability to learn?
     
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Aug 4, 2011, 03:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Let me expound just for fun.
If aliens had kidnapped you and hyteckit when you were babies and put you on a planet just like earth by yourselves as an experiment; it is doubtful that in your entire lifetime; and with all your hyper-intellectual mental capacity combined you would ever conceive something as simple as the wheel. Think about it.

All you guys look around and are so proud of humans accomplishments yet don't see the big picture. Humans have one unique adaptation. The ability to copy the inventions of the few smart people, and make slight improvements. Even with all the millions of people in native US America... None came up with the wheel. The wheel is something just a few of the smartest people in the world came up with... by chance from time to time... and others copies it. Don't overestimate human mental capacity.
Sounds like you are projecting your own inabilities. Just because you are limited by your own human mental capacity, doesn't mean the rest of us are.

I was able to fix a microwave and game systems before I was 10 without ever learning electronics just by analyzing the components, figuring out the purpose, and tracing the problem. I would probably be able to conceive of something as simple a wheel before I even hit 1 year of age.
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Aug 4, 2011, 06:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
It was a metaphor. A baby will not learn to speak only Chinese from English only speaking parents. A Child will not be Muslim with Christian only parents. The child will speak english and be Christian during its youngling years. It might go on to learn a second language or even buy into a different religion later on in life. But for most its what the parents taught them they become.
A bad metaphor with glaring holes.
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
So your telling me it is possible to change your mind about religion?
That is not what I am telling you, but I do believe that.
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
But you also don't fit in to the typical religious person because you picked it on your own, found it for what ever personal reasons you had to move in that direction. So I suspect its not part of your core identity as say with Big Mac.
I would not call my personal experience that atypical.

From my experience about half of believers that I know their background are from non-believing households. And even with the other half that do believe as their parents do, a majority of them didn't believe until they had left their parents house. Being in occupational ministry, and very involved in biblical-based counseling, I meet more people than the average person. I also hear more background stories than the average person.

My core-identity is a forgiven sinner. A Christian. I live my life out of gratitude for the burden that has been lifted from me and God alone deserves Glory.
     
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Aug 4, 2011, 07:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
The resistance to technology has to do with the human and social factor. For example, they allow some technology as long as it does not have a bad effect on the community and its social nature. You are allowed a phone but it can not be inside the house. It must be in a booth outside of the house. This limits its usage. They are allowed a mechanical machine to help with labor as long as it does not replace the job of a person. I admire the Amish so much for this way of living but despise them as much for the religious aspect of the community. If I could live in a community that was setup like the Amish but with out the religion I would in a heart beat.
Most Amish aren't very religious. They only have worship services every other week. (According to the Amish people I know in Michigan and Northern Indiana.) Another shocker was that they appear to be modest, but I saw many Amish woman breastfeeding their children openly without covering up anything. Even their women's clothing is made with slit in the blouses to make access easier for nursing.

Mennonite people share a lot of outside appearance characteristics with the Amish but differ greatly in regards to worship and doctrine. Mennonite doctrines are very similar to Independent Baptist doctrines. And Mennonite and Brethren church members will often attend Baptist services when their own church is not meeting.
     
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Aug 4, 2011, 07:08 PM
 
Core Identity is assumed a forgiven sinner... You wont actually know until your number is up
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Aug 4, 2011, 08:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
@ebuddy

People usually say "cool story" on the Internet as an insult, but that is, in fact, a cool story.
Thanks subego.
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Aug 4, 2011, 08:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
I may have to take a vacation there
They make nice clothes, quilts, and hardwood furniture. We've been buying their products for years.
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Aug 5, 2011, 01:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Core Identity is assumed a forgiven sinner... You wont actually know until your number is up
And that is the core of our belief differences. I have 100% assurance, you have none.
     
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Aug 5, 2011, 02:07 AM
 
No you dont, its still a assumption no matter what. You have 100% faith your assumption is correct. And im not doubting you. But you will never know until the day of judgement if your assumption is correct. Unless god has personally told you that your forgiven then thats a bit different. Thats a pretty good assurance.
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Aug 5, 2011, 01:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
No you dont, its still a assumption no matter what.
Yes, I do.
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
You have 100% faith your assumption is correct.
No, I have 100% assurance.
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
And im not doubting you.
Yes, you are.
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
But you will never know until the day of judgement if your assumption is correct.
Yes, I do.
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Unless god has personally told you that your forgiven then thats a bit different. Thats a pretty good assurance.
Well, that, pretty much, is the situation.
     
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Aug 5, 2011, 01:25 PM
 
Pretty strange to see a Christian claim "assurance" and squirm away from "faith." Assurance doesn't sound too Biblical to me.
     
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Aug 5, 2011, 01:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
Most Amish aren't very religious. They only have worship services every other week.
I don't think that's a very good way to assess religiousity. Do you have a better example, otherwise I'm skeptical.
Another shocker was that they appear to be modest, but I saw many Amish woman breastfeeding their children openly without covering up anything. Even their women's clothing is made with slit in the blouses to make access easier for nursing.
Unlike our cozy culture, Amish women probably needed to keep working while breastfeeding, and since men and women in traditional cultures don't work together, it was likely never an issue.
     
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Aug 5, 2011, 01:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Pretty strange to see a Christian claim "assurance" and squirm away from "faith." Assurance doesn't sound too Biblical to me.
Somehow I knew you'd come in here acting like you know everything telling some Christian they don't understand the bible or are adding things to it. Here's the part where I post a verse perfectly outlining the Christian perspective. Your reply is usually completely absent (telling), or a claim to the false authorship of that particular verse. The ball is in your court.

Hebrews 10:19-23 ESV:
"Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful."

Bolded and italicized text are my own doing.
     
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Aug 5, 2011, 01:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
I don't think that's a very good way to assess religiousity. Do you have a better example, otherwise I'm skeptical.
Unlike our cozy culture, Amish women probably needed to keep working while breastfeeding, and since men and women in traditional cultures don't work together, it was likely never an issue.
Ever chat with Amish fellows? I do, often. By their own admission they admit ignorance about biblical doctrine and admit following established culture more than anything else.

Another good definition of religiousity[sic]? Obeying God. Let's start with missions... tell me, how involved are they with obeying Matthew 28?

The most outrageous breastfeeding example was at the zoo. Whilst sitting. And relaxing. Waiting for a dolphin show. With about 2,000 other people including a couple bus loads of all ages all sexes Amish tourists. Other times it was while waiting for a ride at the grocery store on benches by the entrances. Other times while sitting around during picnics at public parks. Or in a gas station parking lot while their husband was selling goods from a portable sales stand.

You really should visit Amish country sometime and stay away from the tourist trap areas.

EDIT: Wait, did you say "like our cozy culture"?!?! The one where women are encouraged to also work? The one where women feel pressured in the business world to take as few days off after a pregnancy to they can stay on the promotion track and make equal pay as their male counterparts? That cozy culture? You REALLY need to visit Amish country.
     
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Aug 5, 2011, 01:50 PM
 
Congrats, you found a single example of "assurance" in the Bible. Boy, you sure told me!
     
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Aug 5, 2011, 02:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
Ever chat with Amish fellows? I do, often. By their own admission they admit ignorance about biblical doctrine and admit following established culture more than anything else.
Ever chat with Christians of every and any denomination?
Another good definition of religiousity[sic]? Obeying God. Let's start with missions... tell me, how involved are they with obeying Matthew 28?
If you're talking about the Great Commission, the correct interpretation of that is it was addressed to the Apostles, not all Christians. Proselytization is not a universal requirement of all Christians, and never was. That's a modern misunderstanding. As Paul says, the spirit conveys different gifts to different people. Christian groups which expect proselytization by all members (Mormons, JWs, evangelicals) are in the wrong, Biblically-speaking.
The most outrageous breastfeeding example was at the zoo. Whilst sitting. And relaxing. Waiting for a dolphin show. With about 2,000 other people including a couple bus loads of all ages all sexes Amish tourists. Other times it was while waiting for a ride at the grocery store on benches by the entrances. Other times while sitting around during picnics at public parks. Or in a gas station parking lot while their husband was selling goods from a portable sales stand.

You really should visit Amish country sometime and stay away from the tourist trap areas.
Actually, I don't go out of my way to visit any culturally-calcified religious groups. Not my thing. But you enjoy all those boobs.

Regardless, I've never been bothered by women openly breastfeeding. I hear people whine about it, but I don't know why.
Wait, did you say "like our cozy culture"?!?! The one where women are encouraged to also work? The one where women feel pressured in the business world to take as few days off after a pregnancy to they can stay on the promotion track and make equal pay as their male counterparts? That cozy culture? You REALLY need to visit Amish country.
Yeah, those lazy Amish, churning butter with a nursing baby strapped to her chest. So lazy.
(Yes, I'm sure they don't do that anymore, but they probably did when the breast slits were designed into their clothing.)
     
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Aug 5, 2011, 02:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
Somehow I knew you'd come in here acting like you know everything telling some Christian they don't understand the bible or are adding things to it. Here's the part where I post a verse perfectly outlining the Christian perspective. Your reply is usually completely absent (telling), or a claim to the false authorship of that particular verse. The ball is in your court.

Hebrews 10:19-23 ESV:
"Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful."

Bolded and italicized text are my own doing.
But here is the problem. Only god knows if you are pure at heart no matter what you tell yourself. Final judgement is with god and you have many more years of life to screw up and become un-pure. Until actual death its a assumption until the all mighty decides you are of a true heart to pass go and collect 200. Your just a man, you can't know if you will pass this test. Only time will tell if you waver. So no assurance just assumption.


Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
Yes, I do.

No, I have 100% assurance.

Yes, you are.

Yes, I do.

Well, that, pretty much, is the situation.
We will just have to agree to disagree and move on. Nothing you say will prove to me anything other then it is a assumption and nothing I say is going to change whats in your head that you have a assurance.
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Aug 5, 2011, 03:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Congrats, you found a single example of "assurance" in the Bible. Boy, you sure told me!
That's pretty much all that was needed.

Do you think there is a single reference to assurance in the Bible?
     
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Aug 5, 2011, 03:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Ever chat with Christians of every and any denomination?
Nope. We aren't talking about them. But you seem to have a lot to say about the Amish which is incorrect.
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
If you're talking about the Great Commission, the correct interpretation of that is it was addressed to the Apostles, not all Christians. Proselytization is not a universal requirement of all Christians, and never was. That's a modern misunderstanding. As Paul says, the spirit conveys different gifts to different people. Christian groups which expect proselytization by all members (Mormons, JWs, evangelicals) are in the wrong, Biblically-speaking.
You seem to be neglecting Matthew 28:20 "teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. ..." Which includes everything in the verses preceding it.
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Actually, I don't go out of my way to visit any culturally-calcified religious groups.
Is that what you consider the Amish? You REALLY REALLY need to visit Amish country.
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Not my thing. But you enjoy all those boobs.
Really, I LOVE boobs! My wife has a GREAT set. I play with them whenever I can. But hey, if you don't like the boobs ... don't society is starting to accept the alternative lifestyle more and more.
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Regardless, I've never been bothered by women openly breastfeeding.
Neither have I. Did I say I did? Nope, I did not. I encouraged my wife to breastfeed and supported her when needed.
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
I hear people whine about it, but I don't know why.
I do.
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Yeah, those lazy Amish, churning butter with a nursing baby strapped to her chest. So lazy. (Yes, I'm sure they don't do that anymore, but they probably did when the breast slits were designed into their clothing.)
HA Ha! Seriously, LOL! You should try churning butter sometime. Not nearly as much work as you'd think. I made some butter just last week. You should try homemade buter sometime. It is delicious!
     
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Aug 5, 2011, 03:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
But here is the problem. Only god knows if you are pure at heart no matter what you tell yourself. Final judgement is with god and you have many more years of life to screw up and become un-pure. Until actual death its a assumption until the all mighty decides you are of a true heart to pass go and collect 200. Your just a man, you can't know if you will pass this test. Only time will tell if you waver. So no assurance just assumption.
The Bible gives many assurances to those who believe.
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
We will just have to agree to disagree and move on. Nothing you say will prove to me anything other then it is a assumption and nothing I say is going to change whats in your head that you have a assurance.
I love how you worded that [/sarcasm]. Perhaps you need to change what's in your head and be more accepting and tolerant of other's beliefs.
     
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Aug 5, 2011, 03:33 PM
 
     
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Aug 5, 2011, 03:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
Nope. We aren't talking about them. But you seem to have a lot to say about the Amish which is incorrect.
You asserted that the Amish aren't very religious, but have yet to provide a single example of that. I'm still waiting.
You seem to be neglecting Matthew 28:20 "teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. ..." Which includes everything in the verses preceding it.
That's great. Now can you let me know how they fail to live up to that?

Or don't. Really, watching Christian bash each other isn't very pretty or interesting.
Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
That's pretty much all that was needed. Do you think there is a single reference to assurance in the Bible?
Of course not, because that wasn't what I meant at all. You were trying to get out from under that faith label with assurance, as if that matters. You only have your faith in that assurance. In the end, you have nothing but a belief that the promises of the Bible are true. You don't know that they are true, you can only believe they are true. Why do some religious people try to pretend their beliefs are actually hard facts?
     
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Aug 5, 2011, 04:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
You asserted that the Amish aren't very religious, but have yet to provide a single example of that. I'm still waiting.
Not a single example? You are right, not a single example, but multiple examples.
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
That's great. Now can you let me know how they fail to live up to that?
The Amish have zero interest in Missions. They are even wary of people who want to adopt their lifestyle.
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Or don't. Really, watching Christian bash each other isn't very pretty or interesting.
Yet, here you are, engaged in the conversations. Sitting with baited breathe to respond to nearly every religious discussion.
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Of course not, because that wasn't what I meant at all.
I proved you wrong. Admit it.
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
You were trying to get out from under that faith label with assurance, as if that matters.
No I wasn't. I included a specific verse that included "faith" in it and even italicized it.
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
You only have your faith in that assurance.
And that is ALL I need. And I have 100% assurance from my faith.
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
In the end, you have nothing but a belief that the promises of the Bible are true.
Oh no, I have faith in assurances. I know it to be true.
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
You don't know that they are true, you can only believe they are true.
Yes, I do. I believe the Bible is God's revelation and God is the only source of Truth.
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Why do some religious people try to pretend their beliefs are actually hard facts?
Again, I believe the Bible is God's revelation and God is the only source of Truth. Truth=hard facts.
     
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Aug 5, 2011, 04:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Awesome.
     
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Aug 5, 2011, 04:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
The Bible gives many assurances to those who believe.

I love how you worded that [/sarcasm]. Perhaps you need to change what's in your head and be more accepting and tolerant of other's beliefs.
Im actually trying to be respectful. What was wrong with agreeing to disagreeing? Neither of us will ever convince the other person so?
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Aug 5, 2011, 05:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
And that is ALL I need. And I have 100% assurance from my faith.

Oh no, I have faith in assurances. I know it to be true.

Yes, I do. I believe the Bible is God's revelation and God is the only source of Truth.

Again, I believe the Bible is God's revelation and God is the only source of Truth. Truth=hard facts.
Holy crap. I guess it's pointless to argue with someone who thinks you can get facts from beliefs, or that a capital "T" is a helpful qualifier.
     
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Aug 5, 2011, 06:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Holy crap. I guess it's pointless to argue with someone who thinks you can get facts from beliefs, or that a capital "T" is a helpful qualifier.
Do you believe in evolution? Is it a fact? If you answered "yes" then you have faith in the research of others. Because, you know, no one has ever faked research or fudged it to prove a point.
     
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Aug 5, 2011, 06:45 PM
 
Evolution is fact, its been measured reproduced and observed. Does not mean that God didn't create everything on this planet and Evolution is just one more of his creations. Does not mean that Aliens did not plant us on this planet to start the process. For all we know evolution is just god making changes on the go. Evolution isn't a faith issue and it can also work with in the religious view of creation. Its a bad example.

You have a self assurance of something, but no actual assurance. This assurance of forgiveness is actually conditional and even what you posted showed some of the conditions and anything conditional is not a assurance. This is what your failing to see. You have to do X Y Z to be assured forgiveness. But until you actually DIE you cant be assured because at any point in your life you can slip up which invalidated any self assurance you had. This is why Im arguing its a assumed not assured. And no matter how pure you think your heart is, the man upstairs is the only one that decides that. If he decides your not pure enough even though you thought you are well your assurance just went out the window.
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Aug 5, 2011, 07:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Evolution is fact, its been measured reproduced and observed. Does not mean that God didn't create everything on this planet and Evolution is just one more of his creations. Does not mean that Aliens did not plant us on this planet to start the process. For all we know evolution is just god making changes on the go. Evolution isn't a faith issue and it can also work with in the religious view of creation. Its a bad example.
It is not a perfect example, but it is appropriate. You have not observed evolution. You are going on the testimony of others. You have faith in their words. You have chosen to believe them. Faith.

The first definition of "faith" (according to Apple Dictionary app)
"faith |fāTH|
noun
1 complete trust or confidence in someone or something"
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
You have a self assurance of something, but no actual assurance. This assurance of forgiveness is actually conditional and even what you posted showed some of the conditions and anything conditional is not a assurance. This is what your failing to see. You have to do X Y Z to be assured forgiveness. But until you actually DIE you cant be assured because at any point in your life you can slip up which invalidated any self assurance you had. This is why Im arguing its a assumed not assured. And no matter how pure you think your heart is, the man upstairs is the only one that decides that. If he decides your not pure enough even though you thought you are well your assurance just went out the window.
I have Biblical assurance. Actual assurance. It is unconditional. It is a gift freely given. It is offered out of grace. I do not deserve it. I deserve an eternal punishment for my sins, but God has forgiven me when I didn't deserve it.

Who are you to tell me I am wrong? You seem to know all the answers with no sources. You seem to have come to the conclusion of the truth. Where was this knowledge revealed to you?

I know where my knowledge comes from.

I know where my assurances come from.

Lastly, Christian doctrines teach that you cannot be good enough, ever. Romans 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
     
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Aug 5, 2011, 07:50 PM
 
I think it's a perfect example. People like me, and apparently like Athens, have complete faith in the ideal of empiricism and observational evidence. So even though empirical science like evolution is conditional on a number of things, we hold no doubts that the technique of empiricism is accurate and reliable. Believers feel the same way about their faith.

Haters like to say that science is just another religion, because we have "faith" in textbooks. It's not, because we don't have faith in textbooks, but in another way it is, because we have faith in the scientific method, in the reproducibility of empirical experimentation. Experimentation might turn out to be deceptive, it could be that invisible gravity fairies have been fooling us the whole time. But the belief that this is not what's happening and in statistics and in the general consistency of natural laws is a condition of our faith in science.
     
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Aug 5, 2011, 07:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
ebuddy
     
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Aug 5, 2011, 07:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
Do you believe in evolution?
Yes.
Is it a fact?
Facts are human-made things. Humans observe DATA, which they INTERPRET to make FACTS, which they explain using THEORIES. If the DATA changes, the FACTS change. If the INTERPRETATION changes, the FACTS change. Any of those changes could require changing the THEORY.

In other words, all human knowledge is conditional.

So no, evolution is not a fact, it is a theory. It explains the data we have.
If you answered "yes" then you have faith in the research of others. Because, you know, no one has ever faked research or fudged it to prove a point.
Faith is belief in the absence of proof. But I do have confidence in the theories of scientists, because they show me the data and the facts, while the Bible does neither.
     
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Aug 5, 2011, 07:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
I think it's a perfect example. People like me, and apparently like Athens, have complete faith in the ideal of empiricism and observational evidence. So even though empirical science like evolution is conditional on a number of things, we hold no doubts that the technique of empiricism is accurate and reliable. Believers feel the same way about their faith.

Haters like to say that science is just another religion, because we have "faith" in textbooks. It's not, because we don't have faith in textbooks, but in another way it is, because we have faith in the scientific method, in the reproducibility of empirical experimentation. Experimentation might turn out to be deceptive, it could be that invisible gravity fairies have been fooling us the whole time. But the belief that this is not what's happening and in statistics and in the general consistency of natural laws is a condition of our faith in science.
Well said.
     
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Aug 5, 2011, 07:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Yes.
Facts are human-made things. Humans observe DATA, which they INTERPRET to make FACTS, which they explain using THEORIES. If the DATA changes, the FACTS change. If the INTERPRETATION changes, the FACTS change. Any of those changes could require changing the THEORY.

In other words, all human knowledge is conditional.

So no, evolution is not a fact, it is a theory. It explains the data we have.
Faith is belief in the absence of proof. But I do have confidence in the theories of scientists, because they show me the data and the facts, while the Bible does neither.
I'm glad you capitalized those words to be "a helpful qualifier."

You should look up what the true meaning of the word "faith" is. It does have more than one definition, but none of them match what you claim it means.
     
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Aug 5, 2011, 08:05 PM
 
That wasn't a quantifier, because it didn't change the meaning of the words, unlike your truth/Truth nonsense. I was trying to improve the impact of the word INTERPRET, which didn't stick out the way data, fact, and theory did.

EDIT: Just checked Apple's Oxford dictionary. Meaning #2 of "faith" is pretty much exactly what I said: "strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof." Of course "spiritual apprehension" isn't in the dictionary, but I'm confident that the "spiritual apprehension" of a man who actual may have met God or Jesus (like Moses or Paul) is considerably more real than the people who "spiritually apprehend" just by reading a book.
     
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Aug 5, 2011, 08:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Yes.
Facts are human-made things. Humans observe DATA, which they INTERPRET to make FACTS, which they explain using THEORIES. If the DATA changes, the FACTS change. If the INTERPRETATION changes, the FACTS change. Any of those changes could require changing the THEORY.

In other words, all human knowledge is conditional.

So no, evolution is not a fact, it is a theory. It explains the data we have.
Faith is belief in the absence of proof. But I do have confidence in the theories of scientists, because they show me the data and the facts, while the Bible does neither.
And I think this is well-said.

I haven't fully decided what I think of the ideal that faith is belief in the absence of proof though. If data is subject to interpretation, events in one's life can affirm beliefs as proof; their interpretation of the data. The obvious problems are that by nature this data is very personal and therefore not reproducible in the traditional, scientific sense.

Not directed at you mckenna - I echo the sentiment of others that science and faith are not in conflict. IMO they are simply two entirely different disciplines.
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Aug 5, 2011, 08:41 PM
 
I was kinda curious about how Amish openly breastfeed in public, but after trying various Google searches, I can't find any mention of Amish women exposing their breasts to feed in a way that could be described as "immodest," and certainly no criticism of that behaviour. Your experiences, Railroader, appear to be unique enough to be beneath the notice of Google's web-crawler.

Ok, so I was looking for pics of naked Amish boobies too. Sue me.
     
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Aug 5, 2011, 08:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Facts are human-made things.
Then why couldn't they come from beliefs?

Humans observe DATA, which they INTERPRET to make FACTS, which they explain using THEORIES.
It all comes from data, and data relies on our senses (mostly vision). There is no reason that what we sense through vision must be more "correct" than what we sense through our spirituality. It could be that our senses are lying to us, but we simply have no choice but to believe them. Because the option to observe the world absent the lens of our senses, is simply not available and likely never will be. As far as science is concerned, we are our senses, they are inseparable from us. So we choose to trust our senses, not because they are ASSURED, but because we simply don't recognize any alternative.

Believers are the same way, except with their spirituality instead of their other senses. It's not that their spirituality itself can be demonstrated to be infallible, but because they are their spirituality, and through it they sense a certainty of... whatever it is they believe. Just as certain as I sense the laws of gravity and thermodynamics through my vision and proprioception.

The weakest point of empiricism is the very first step, the one in which observations enter our bodies through our senses. This step cannot be proved, its truth is simply the premise of empiricism. It's the same step at which we cast the biggest doubt on believers. The step in which their spiritual observations enter their bodies, through their sense of spirituality. Even while this step also cannot be proved, and must simply be the premise of belief, it's not less right than the premise of empiricism is. It just lies outside the bounds of our ability to probe.
     
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Aug 5, 2011, 09:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Then why couldn't they come from beliefs?
They can, if they are based on data. For most people, that data is holy writings. That's fine. If I say "Plato wrote about Socrates," that's a fact, even though we only have books as data to prove it with.

I have no trouble with Christians making claims based on the Bible. (I'm more than ready to argue the correct interpretation of that!). It's when they claim their beliefs are directly based on observation that I balk. If you wanna say "Paul said we can see God in creation," that's fine, but don't tell me you can see God in creation when really you're just repeating what Paul said.
     
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Aug 5, 2011, 09:26 PM
 
How do you know what they're seeing? If you directly observe Plato writing about Socrates, how do you trust your own eyes? How do you know that another person "seeing God in creation" shouldn't trust his own senses in the same way?
     
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Aug 5, 2011, 09:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
I think it's a perfect example. People like me, and apparently like Athens, have complete faith in the ideal of empiricism and observational evidence. So even though empirical science like evolution is conditional on a number of things, we hold no doubts that the technique of empiricism is accurate and reliable. Believers feel the same way about their faith.

Haters like to say that science is just another religion, because we have "faith" in textbooks. It's not, because we don't have faith in textbooks, but in another way it is, because we have faith in the scientific method, in the reproducibility of empirical experimentation. Experimentation might turn out to be deceptive, it could be that invisible gravity fairies have been fooling us the whole time. But the belief that this is not what's happening and in statistics and in the general consistency of natural laws is a condition of our faith in science.
Good point.

There are those who put 'faith' into human's ability to observe, analyze, and apply critical thinking.

Then there are those who don't have 'faith' in human's ability like Railroad and el chupacabra. They put their faith into some 'metaphysical' or 'invisible' thing like God, outside of human's ability to observe. It's mostly from how they 'feel'. Mostly brain chemistry.


For example:

Railroader feels that God saved him from becoming an alcoholic. God believers would believe God saved Railroader.

Non-believer would observe and analyze Railroader's history and family history.

My observation and analysis would be that his family suffers from depression. Probably genetic. Some people fill their emptiness, void, or depression with alcohol. Some with sex, drugs, or whatever their vice might be.. Some are able to fill the void or emptiness with God. Instead of being alone deep into alcohol, Railroader fills the void or emptiness with God and being with others with the same belief. This is my analysis of Railroader's situation.

I can't even count the number of times I've attended a church rally and have people go up on stage and say how God save them from the destruction of alcohol, drugs, and promiscuity.
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Aug 5, 2011, 11:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Good point.

There are those who put 'faith' into human's ability to observe, analyze, and apply critical thinking.

Then there are those who don't have 'faith' in human's ability like Railroad and el chupacabra. They put their faith into some 'metaphysical' or 'invisible' thing like God, outside of human's ability to observe. It's mostly from how they 'feel'. Mostly brain chemistry.
You feel creation is invisible? lpkmckenna may say I am just repeating what Paul said, but I have seen God through creation (just as every person who has ever lived, according to Paul ) and chosen to worship God because of creation. All of creation is his, and it reveals his power.
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
For example:

Railroader feels that God saved him from becoming an alcoholic. God believers would believe God saved Railroader.

Non-believer would observe and analyze Railroader's history and family history.

My observation and analysis would be that his family suffers from depression. Probably genetic. Some people fill their emptiness, void, or depression with alcohol. Some with sex, drugs, or whatever their vice might be.. Some are able to fill the void or emptiness with God. Instead of being alone deep into alcohol, Railroader fills the void or emptiness with God and being with others with the same belief. This is my analysis of Railroader's situation.

I can't even count the number of times I've attended a church rally and have people go up on stage and say how God save them from the destruction of alcohol, drugs, and promiscuity.
Very detailed, and creative, but very wrong as well. I have never suffered from depression and neither does my father or brother (well, they never revealed it in the 40 years I have known them). My conversion came during one of the higher upbeat moments of my life (well, to be honest, my whole life has been pretty darn amazing and upbeat.)

God saved me from a life of living only for myself. I have died to self. Hedonism has been removed from my desires by God.

Here's what I said earlier in this thread about why I am not an alcoholic:
The only answer I could give was "There but by the grace of God go I." Before my conversion I had the same desires and actions he had. Pure hedonism. I truly believe I am not an alcoholic simply because God stopped it from happening.
Note, I mentioned hedonism. Alcohol just happened to be something they ended up being addicted to as a result of their hedonism. No other members of my family, up or down the family tree or out the branches, has this issue. My mom has probably drank a total of 30 drinks in her 60+ years on the planet. No "genetic" depressions here either. We are not the glass-is-half-full kind of people, we are the glass-is-full-and-runneth-over kind of people. I like how Chris Rice sings it: "Life gave me lemonade and I can't imagine why, Born on a sunny day, beneath a tangerine sky".
     
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Aug 5, 2011, 11:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
It is not a perfect example, but it is appropriate. You have not observed evolution. You are going on the testimony of others. You have faith in their words. You have chosen to believe them. Faith.

The first definition of "faith" (according to Apple Dictionary app)
"faith |fāTH|
noun
1 complete trust or confidence in someone or something"
No I have seen it through this amazing thing called Video and the documented evidence. Just look at how we can create dogs through selective breeding..


I have Biblical assurance. Actual assurance. It is unconditional. It is a gift freely given. It is offered out of grace. I do not deserve it. I deserve an eternal punishment for my sins, but God has forgiven me when I didn't deserve it.

Who are you to tell me I am wrong? You seem to know all the answers with no sources. You seem to have come to the conclusion of the truth. Where was this knowledge revealed to you?

I know where my knowledge comes from.

I know where my assurances come from.

Lastly, Christian doctrines teach that you cannot be good enough, ever. Romans 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Im not saying your wrong about being forgiven im just arguing about one small detail, assumption vs assurance. I trust that you have been forgiven but until God gives you something in writing saying You "name" have been forgiven for all your sins, your assuming you have been forgiven based on the recipe for it.

Look im trying to disagree with you and at the same time not be disrespectful. Im doing my best to be civilized in this. We will never agree on this.


Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
I think it's a perfect example. People like me, and apparently like Athens, have complete faith in the ideal of empiricism and observational evidence. So even though empirical science like evolution is conditional on a number of things, we hold no doubts that the technique of empiricism is accurate and reliable. Believers feel the same way about their faith.

Haters like to say that science is just another religion, because we have "faith" in textbooks. It's not, because we don't have faith in textbooks, but in another way it is, because we have faith in the scientific method, in the reproducibility of empirical experimentation. Experimentation might turn out to be deceptive, it could be that invisible gravity fairies have been fooling us the whole time. But the belief that this is not what's happening and in statistics and in the general consistency of natural laws is a condition of our faith in science.
And we have checks in place through peer reviews and many different people reproducing the same experiments to help mostly rule out false science and lies. Sometimes science gets things wrong but thats whats great, you can be wrong in science and correct it.
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Aug 5, 2011, 11:51 PM
 
Who knows maybe some day we will invent a time machine and be able to go back to the first person who wrote the first stories of the bible and find he was just a very creative story teller, nothing more then a screen play writer and all those people that lived by the story will feel silly or we find a world developed as the bible says it was and the rest of us feel silly and quickly pray for forgiveness.
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Aug 6, 2011, 12:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
No I have seen it through this amazing thing called Video and the documented evidence.
You have seen evolution on [V]ideo? Really, documented evidence about evolution?
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Just look at how we can create dogs through selective breeding..
That. Is. Not. Evolution. Period.
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Im not saying your wrong about being forgiven im just arguing about one small detail, assumption vs assurance. I trust that you have been forgiven but until God gives you something in writing saying You "name" have been forgiven for all your sins, your assuming you have been forgiven based on the recipe for it.

Look im trying to disagree with you and at the same time not be disrespectful. Im doing my best to be civilized in this. We will never agree on this.
But I am getting my beliefs from a certain source and you are making yours up from your feelings.

I'll repeat it again. I have 100% assurance. Simply being forgiven has given that to me. And God has promised that if I ask for forgiveness, it will be granted.
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
And we have checks in place through peer reviews and many different people reproducing the same experiments to help mostly rule out false science and lies. Sometimes science gets things wrong but thats whats great, you can be wrong in science and correct it.
What happens when you are wrong with your feelings on religion? That is the most important question you can possibly ask yourself.
     
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Aug 6, 2011, 12:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Who knows maybe some day we will invent a time machine and be able to go back to the first person who wrote the first stories of the bible and find he was just a very creative story teller, nothing more then a screen play writer and all those people that lived by the story will feel silly or we find a world developed as the bible says it was and the rest of us feel silly and quickly pray for forgiveness.
Or, you can just wait until you are dead to find out who's right.

But then it would be too late for you to ask for forgiveness.
     
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Aug 6, 2011, 12:31 AM
 
I don't need to ask for forgiveness because when I die, like all organic matter I rot away and become one with nature again as in the most basic of atoms and elements to be recycled again in something else, a plant, a insect, food for a animal that becomes food for a human. There is no after life. We are a biochemical machine, a constant biochemical reaction and death is just the ending the biochemical reaction. Just a more complexed evolved but natural system. Your here one minute hard coded to breed to pass on your biochemical make up and then your gone. Success comes from the continuation of your biochemical make up through offspring. Failure is never reproducing. Life is remarkably simple when you remove the faith and look only at the mechanical side of it.
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Aug 6, 2011, 12:32 AM
 
But hey im open to new things, take your best shot save me.
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Aug 6, 2011, 02:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
Or, you can just wait until you are dead to find out who's right.

But then it would be too late for you to ask for forgiveness.
Haha...

You better change to my religion before it's too late. Ghudda, the God of Gods. Ghudda created Christ. Christ just didn't know.

Hope it's not to late for you to believe in Ghudda.
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