[besson3c]

Do any of you guys have friends that were staunchly anti-Obama/left wing ideology and used pretty extreme rhetoric that have dialed it back a little bit in recent days?

I think if you want to be an outspoken partisan sort of person that it is generally a good idea to not resort to extreme language and hyperbole, because it is easy to lose credibility this way over time. I've known people that have gone on about the impending doom of the economy, Obamacare, etc. and of course, things have proven to not be that bad. Lately, it's been harder to make these sort of claims with some of the positive signs we have been seeing, so I would imagine that some of this rhetoric is a little more moderated with some, but I don't know... What have conversations with your Facebook and other political peeps been like?

I've also known people that did the same thing under Bush, I guess this just goes with the territory of being a partisan warrior.

[subego]

The NSA is sooo much better now!

[Waragainstsleep]

I've been seeing stats for much longer than days that show Obama has exceeded many of his own goals and promises and generally defied all the doom and gloom predictions from his detractors.

I'm sure the hardcore right will refute most of those facts and figures but it perhaps most people are finally accepting that the only way Obama has really done badly is in a way that the Republicans would have most likely done the same thing if not worse. Maybe they are only accepting it because they know he'll be gone soon so there is less point trying to indict homier whatever.

[Snow-i]

What's your point, besson? Partisan people are partisan? You've managed to prove that in more ways than one.

To answer your question, the Republicans control congress now, so the level of contentious legislation coming out of that body has dropped considerably. The big fight now is over bypassing congress, a problem which the Republicans have scored pretty large victories in recently.

Regardless of how you felt about Obama in the past, his level of influence compared to even 3 years ago is pretty low. As a result, there's just not as much for anti-populists and conservatives to fear for.

Also, his list of failures at home in abroad continues to grow just as his list of accomplishments. This is a function of time, as it is for any president.

[BadKosh]

Facebook? really?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

What's your point, besson? Partisan people are partisan? You've managed to prove that in more ways than one.

It didn't take long for the attacks to begin.

To answer your question, the Republicans control congress now, so the level of contentious legislation coming out of that body has dropped considerably. The big fight now is over bypassing congress, a problem which the Republicans have scored pretty large victories in recently.

Regardless of how you felt about Obama in the past, his level of influence compared to even 3 years ago is pretty low. As a result, there's just not as much for anti-populists and conservatives to fear for.

Also, his list of failures at home in abroad continues to grow just as his list of accomplishments. This is a function of time, as it is for any president.

I'm talking about his overall report card since starting his presidency. Many Republicans were predicting all sorts of doom and gloom scenarios, and while I'd agree that there have been obvious failures (like the NSA), I'm not here to position any particular policy as a success or failure, but I'm sure we can all agree that the doomsday stuff hasn't come to pass? The doomsday predictions under Bush didn't come to pass either.

I think this country needs to dismantle its partisan war machine. While there are obviously some policy differences between the right and left, they aren't that radically different for us to go nuts over in comparison to what I see as being the real war between monied interests and the interests of the remaining population. IIRC we agree on this point, no?

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

It didn't take long for the attacks to begin.

It's kind of hard not to when the OP is so enticingly ironic.

I'm talking about his overall report card since starting his presidency. Many Republicans were predicting all sorts of doom and gloom scenarios, and while I'd agree that there have been obvious failures (like the NSA), I'm not here to position any particular policy as a success or failure, but I'm sure we can all agree that the doomsday stuff hasn't come to pass? The doomsday predictions under Bush didn't come to pass either.

I guess this is where I'm having trouble following what you're getting at. Are you surprised? What here is worthy of discussion? That hardliners on both sides that hyperbolize their campaigns turned out to be hyperbolizing? Doesn't that kind of follow without needing a thread?

Just making a statement that "some Republicans this" or "some liberals that" is purely hypothetical. Do you have an example of your point that involves a post here @ NN? Or are you just saying in general?

I think this country needs to dismantle its partisan war machine. While there are obviously some policy differences between the right and left, they aren't that radically different for us to go nuts over in comparison to what I see as being the real war between monied interests and the interests of the remaining population. IIRC we agree on this point, no?

Absolutely. In order to dismantle the partisan war machine, we must first learn to think and communicate in ways that leave the door open for adverse ideological standpoints, and stop treating our political parties like football teams. I do agree 100% that this is not about partisan politics (that's just the diversion). The real battle is the ruling class and everyone else. Divide & Conquer and all that.

It's kind of hard for me to reconcile your view when your OP is specifically about whether or not one partisan group was partisan or not, followed by a statement like this.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

It's kind of hard not to when the OP is so enticingly ironic.

It's tempting to create a new nick so that I can start conversations without people wading through my years and years of history. I'm not blaming you for this, I do the same with other posters, it's natural, but also annoying.

I guess this is where I'm having trouble following what you're getting at. Are you surprised? What here is worthy of discussion? That hardliners on both sides that hyperbolize their campaigns turned out to be hyperbolizing? Doesn't that kind of follow without needing a thread?

Just making a statement that "some Republicans this" or "some liberals that" is purely hypothetical. Do you have an example of your point that involves a post here @ NN? Or are you just saying in general?



Absolutely. In order to dismantle the partisan war machine, we must first learn to think and communicate in ways that leave the door open for adverse ideological standpoints, and stop treating our political parties like football teams. I do agree 100% that this is not about partisan politics (that's just the diversion). The real battle is the ruling class and everyone else. Divide & Conquer and all that.

It's kind of hard for me to reconcile your view when your OP is specifically about whether or not one partisan group was partisan or not, followed by a statement like this.

I was asking for your input on your circles of friends so that I can calibrate where we are at with this whole distraction, as you put it.

My thinking was maybe some of the positive reports might make enough people think twice about paying attention to at least the extreme spectrum of fear mongering. Enough years have passed and our deficit is lower, job creation up, etc. - a number of these the exact opposite of the realities we were promised by these aforementioned entities.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

It's tempting to create a new nick so that I can start conversations without people wading through my years and years of history.

we'll know its you

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

we'll know its you

I guess I'm no Abe when it comes to disguises...

[subego]

I had no idea you were buttsauce.

[besson3c]

I think I was butthawk too at some point?

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

we'll know its you

That was my first thought too,

Still love ya bess

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I was asking for your input on your circles of friends so that I can calibrate where we are at with this whole distraction, as you put it.

My friends both back home and out here in the midwest are about as diverse as they come as far as politics are concerned. I have extremely liberal friends, I have extremely conservative friends, and I have friends that are flavors of both. I think the key is that anytime we talk politics, we discuss the issues themselves and don't focus on who's rooting for which team and who's going to win the superbo...uhh next election.

My thinking was maybe some of the positive reports might make enough people think twice about paying attention to at least the extreme spectrum of fear mongering.

This would require an impractically enormous overhaul to the way news is done in the US. It's happening for the better with the internet, but the process is slow (like decades) and there's still a lot of money and power in the infotainment industry.

Enough years have passed and our deficit is lower, job creation up, etc. - a number of these the exact opposite of the realities we were promised by these aforementioned entities.

I would disagree with you here, but that's for another thread. Our economy hasn't really recovered - we've just gotten used to the new norm over the past 6 years and some have been content with the anemic gains our economy has made. The job market is still absolute crap - just ask anyone graduating from college, especially those in medicine.

[subego]

I can't really answer the question posed in the OP, because I'm the most staunchly anti-Obama person I know who isn't in the PWL.


Edit: I don't hang on Facebook, but the pro-D rhetoric on reddit has already started to get insufferable.

[Waragainstsleep]

My thinking was maybe some of the positive reports might make enough people think twice about paying attention to at least the extreme spectrum of fear mongering.

Its gotten pathological. Its a carefully cultured mixture of classic propaganda tactics. You start by inflating the importance of personal beliefs. This gives people a nice confidence boost that what they believe is correct, just because they believe it and in turn boosts the source's credibility with the audience. You tell someone exactly what they want to hear and compliment them at the same time. Its seduction 101.
You then have your audience's attention, trust, respect and admiration which is when they invite you into their home to start ****ing them regularly. Sustain the relationship with a continued policy of saying what they want to hear, garnished with healthy doses of paranoia and create yourself a scapegoat or hate figure to deflect onto (or better yet a constant supply of them).
"Your step-daddy Obama is trying to turn you against me! He tells you lies about the stuff I did then tries to win you over with free healthcare and cheaper gas!"

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

I would disagree with you here, but that's for another thread. Our economy hasn't really recovered - we've just gotten used to the new norm over the past 6 years and some have been content with the anemic gains our economy has made. The job market is still absolute crap - just ask anyone graduating from college, especially those in medicine.

This sounds like arguing with well-established fact using anecdotal evidence. So what if it spawns another thread? You ought to be able to summarise if there is any worthy basis for your opinion.


They are becoming better-crafted to sound more reasonable on the face, but when you really look at most of the right's arguments they don't appear much different from those of the likes of anti-vaxxers, anti-GMO people or conspiracy nuts.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

I would disagree with you here, but that's for another thread. Our economy hasn't really recovered - we've just gotten used to the new norm over the past 6 years and some have been content with the anemic gains our economy has made. The job market is still absolute necromancy - just ask anyone graduating from college, especially those in medicine.

We are getting closer to agreeing on the big picture things, but you lost me here.

It is a fact that there has been recovery from since Obama took office. Recovery to 90s levels? I guess it depends on how you define recovery, but I don't see how one can dispute the fact that the economy has gotten better since when Obama took office. Or, is this not what you are disputing?

I'm not saying this to elevate his status, elevate my status, or any of that. The picture is not entirely rosy, I'm not suggesting that we claim some sort of victory/case closed and move on to other things, but until we can agree upon a baseline of facts and separate them from what we want the facts to be and what makes party x or party y look good/bad, I think we're going to be stuck in the Superbowl, like you put it (I like that characterization

It is important that we agree upon these particular facts not for ideological or partisan reasons, but simply because in order to end the Superbowl game we are going to have to learn to call things as they are, without all of this other Superbowly stuff.

[BadKosh]

I guess changing the way you calculate those numbers makes no difference?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

I guess changing the way you calculate those numbers makes no difference?

These are CBO numbers.

[BadKosh]

And they changed the methods of how they calculate the CBO numbers.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

And they changed the methods of how they calculate the CBO numbers.

Riiiggghtt... and this is a well-kept secret.

I didn't know you were a conspiracy guy.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

And they changed the methods of how they calculate the CBO numbers.

You mean this?

After the drama of electing a new speaker of the House and the changing of control in the Senate, the House on Tuesday approved an obscure but significant rule change requiring the economic effects of legislation to be included in a bill’s official cost to the Treasury.

The change on “dynamic scoring” — ardently sought since the 1990s by Republicans — could ease passage of major tax cuts by showing that their impact on economic growth would substantially reduce their cost to the Treasury. The move is widely seen as a way for Republican leaders to set ground rules for an ambitious overhaul of the entire United States tax code.

Speaker John A. Boehner and Representative Nancy Pelosi not long after he beat back an embarrassing challenge to retain his post on Tuesday.

“We’re saying, ‘If you think a piece of legislation is going to have a big effect on the economy, then include that effect in the official cost estimate,’ ” said Representative Tom Price, Republican of Georgia, the new chairman of the House Budget Committee. “So if you think a bill is going to help or hurt the economy, then tell us how much.”

“We’re saying, ‘If you think a piece of legislation is going to have a big effect on the economy, then include that effect in the official cost estimate,' ” said Representative Tom Price, Republican of Georgia, the new chairman of the House Budget Committee.

Democrats blasted the change as “voodoo economics,” a “gamble” and “tax fraud.” Opponents said the rule change would invite politicized scorekeeping, further tilt policy to benefit the rich, and expand the budget deficit. Shaun Donovan, the White House budget director, implored the House not to “upend the level playing field that has existed for decades” and “call into question the accuracy, consistency and fairness” of congressional budget estimates.

House Republicans Change Rules on Calculating Economic Impact of Bills | NYTimes.com

Basically the GOP is changing the rules to require the CBO to quantify the Republican mantra of "Tax cuts pay for themselves" into the official scoring of legislation. Despite the fact that every time this has been tried in the modern political era it has been an unmitigated disaster. See the skyrocketing deficits under President Reagan, President G.W. Bush, and more recently under Gov. Brownback in Kansas as examples. And contrast that with the dramatically falling If you are even remotely interested in and evidence based policy discussion that is.

OAW

[BadKosh]

Its been discussed all over the media for about 3 years now. Not surprised you haven't been aware.

[BadKosh]

Just look how they changed the method of deriving the unemployment figures!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3619152.html

http://www.americanthinker.com/artic...aningless.html

[OAW]

So let me get this straight. You said this ....

Originally Posted by BadKosh

And they changed the methods of how they calculate the CBO numbers.

And when challenged on it you respond with this ....

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

Just look how they changed the method of deriving the unemployment figures!

The Official Unemployment Rate Is Wrong, Says Guy Who Used To Calculate It

Articles: O's Legacy: Unemployment Rate Now Meaningless

Even though the words "CBO" or "Congressional Budget Office" are not present anywhere in either article you cited? And then on top of that the two articles you cite are only making the point that the official "Unemployment Rate" does not factor in the separate "Labor Force Participation Rate" ... even though that has always been the case.



OAW

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Like how the Clinton era spending/tax cuts had no positive effect on the economy? Either the Left says that deficits don't matter, or they focus on them intently and kick their heels, which is it?

[Snow-i]

Well this thread is certainly starting to live up to its title. I think that pretty well answers the OP.

[besson3c]

Whomever decides to play these two parties against each other was brilliant. This will never end.

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Whomever decides to play these two parties against each other was brilliant. This will never end.

Divide and conquer.