[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Eug 

That's the one I was talking about.

---

P.S. Orion women are supposed to be sultry. The one in this movie was a total airhead, the antithesis of sultry. What gives? Maybe only the slave girls are sultry? Once they hit the middle class they become valley girls?

It figures that the class of girls who become slaves are probably a bit different that the class that would be joining Starfleet.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

I enjoyed the movie and thought the casting was good, the direction to be fun and that it lacked the "weight" of the series as a whole.

Yeah!

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by finboy 

OK, though, seriously, for those who've seen it, answer this please if you can:

 

Why can't Spock Prime just go back in time and fix everything? He was too late for Romulus, can't he just whip around the Sun or use the red matter or whatever and travel back in time and STOP everything, thus saving his mother and Vulcan, etc.? Heck, the Borg figured it out! Is this Spock Prime guy the same Spock who saved a whale, or what?

 

1. Black holes are not time machines, where and when they end up is (presumably) unknowable
2. Even if he could, he wouldn't change the current timeline/universe, just create a third timeline/universe.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

It figures that the class of girls who become slaves are probably a bit different that the class that would be joining Starfleet.

The more I think about this, the more I want to say this was them making the "alternate timeline" point in a very small way (in terms of screen time and importance), while actually showing some of the massive changes said timeline had wrought.

Though I don't remember it being explicit, one can assume Orions weren't part of the Federation in TOS as the Federation wouldn't allow a species that kept slaves to join. You certainly didn't see any green Orions in Starfleet.

FWIW, there was some stuff licensed by Paramount (books, games, etc.) which did make this explicit.



Umm, yeah... I'm a Trekkie.

[mrtew]

I don't know where you guys are getting this alternate universe stuff. When Nemo and Spock came back in time their actions created new consequences and started new chains of events in motion, thereby creating a new timeline for them and the people they affect, but I really don't think they caused a whole new universe such as green chicks now joining the Federation, the S.F. Navy shipyards moving to Iowa, or Uhura and Spock becoming romantically involved, just by going thru the wormhole. If so wouldn't the universe constantly be starting over with new realities every time some crap gets sucked into a black hole anywhere, presumably every second of every day?

[subego]

Originally Posted by mrtew 

If so wouldn't the universe constantly be starting over with new realities every time some crap gets sucked into a black hole anywhere, presumably every second of every day?

If that crap happened to...

 

Kill Kirk's dad and a bunch of other people. For instance, old Spock went through a whole rigamarole about how he knew Kirk's dad in the other universe, and how big of an influence he was on him. Here, his dad had no influence, which presumably led to an even more spirited youth.

Think of it as the Rigellan Butterfly Effect.

[Gavin]

Originally Posted by mrtew 

If so wouldn't the universe constantly be starting over with new realities every time some crap gets sucked into a black hole anywhere, presumably every second of every day?

It does. Every time a sock goes mysteriously missing = new reality starting up!

Got a pen without a cap? Romulans!

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by mrtew 

I don't know where you guys are getting this alternate universe stuff. When Nemo and Spock came back in time their actions created new consequences and started new chains of events in motion, thereby creating a new timeline for them and the people they affect, but I really don't think they caused a whole new universe such as green chicks now joining the Federation, the S.F. Navy shipyards moving to Iowa, or Uhura and Spock becoming romantically involved, just by going thru the wormhole.

'New timeline' effectively equals 'alternate universe'. If Nemo and Spock affected the same timeline that they came from, Spock wouldn't have any memory of events from his timeline, such as Kirk growing up knowing his father, since those events would have never happened. As such, this is an alternate timeline/universe and the original timeline, with a Vulcan and no Romulus, is still running along.

If so wouldn't the universe constantly be starting over with new realities every time some crap gets sucked into a black hole anywhere, presumably every second of every day?

In *one* Star Trek theory of time travel, yes. There are other time-travel theories explored in Star Trek as well.
http://io9.com/5238315/6-theories-of...l-in-star-trek

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Not really. Jason and the Argonauts is one of my favorite movies in terms of special effects, because the effects were completely revolutionary for its time. The Wrath of Khan has pretty cheesy effects - they're about on par with special effects in TNG episodes, which isn't saying much - it just seems low-budget.

The effects in TWK were revolutionary for their time. TWK came out in 1982; TNG started on TV 5 years later-with significantly LOWER budget effects. TWK included the ground-breaking "Genesis sequence" which was the very first fully computer animated sequence used as an important part of a theatrical movie. The rest of their effects were completely state of the art optical effects. They were great, especially for when the movie was made.

TNG, on the other hand, had TV-oriented effects. They were not done on the same scale or with the same time and money budget that theatrical film effects were done then, and that sometimes showed. Not to the extent that TOS effects showed their low budget, but it did show.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by scottiB 

Uhura ordered two Buds at the bar.

I think this one bugged me more than the Nokia placement. Buds? Why couldn't she order GOOD beer for crying out loud? Oh, wait. Maybe these beers were for her fellow cadets, the ones that had to go 4 or 5 on one to beat up Kirk... Yeah, that's it! Wimpy beer fits now!

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

The effects in TWK were revolutionary for their time. TWK came out in 1982; TNG started on TV 5 years later-with significantly LOWER budget effects. TWK included the ground-breaking "Genesis sequence" which was the very first fully computer animated sequence used as an important part of a theatrical movie. The rest of their effects were completely state of the art optical effects. They were great, especially for when the movie was made.

TNG, on the other hand, had TV-oriented effects. They were not done on the same scale or with the same time and money budget that theatrical film effects were done then, and that sometimes showed. Not to the extent that TOS effects showed their low budget, but it did show.

Yeah, according to Wikipedia, Khan was one of the first movies to use CGI. So I stand corrected on that one.

I don't know - it just seems to fall flat to me, and I'm not saying that simply because I'm used to movies with better effects. Of course I don't expect Khan to be as whiz-bang as the latest one.

[Thorzdad]

I have one question...Is there any explanation as to where the young Kirk gets the gasoline for the Corvette? One would assume that fossil fuels would have been long since depleted or phased-out. Or are there other instances of gasoline-engined vehicles in the time frame? (I won't be seeing the movie 'til the DVD come out.)

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by subego 

The more I think about this, the more I want to say this was them making the "alternate timeline" point in a very small way (in terms of screen time and importance), while actually showing some of the massive changes said timeline had wrought.

Though I don't remember it being explicit, one can assume Orions weren't part of the Federation in TOS as the Federation wouldn't allow a species that kept slaves to join. You certainly didn't see any green Orions in Starfleet.

FWIW, there was some stuff licensed by Paramount (books, games, etc.) which did make this explicit.

Umm, yeah... I'm a Trekkie.

I'm telling ya, it's the beginning of the mirror universe. This is where their universe took a wrong turn. Kirk's gonna become emperor.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Yeah, according to Wikipedia, Khan was one of the first movies to use CGI. So I stand corrected on that one.

I don't know - it just seems to fall flat to me, and I'm not saying that simply because I'm used to movies with better effects. Of course I don't expect Khan to be as whiz-bang as the latest one.

Interestingly, Khan just came out as a remastered HD version on Blu-ray, from the original film. It's currently packaged with a bunch of the other movies on Blu-ray, but none of those have been remastered. So I'll wait until Khan comes out on its own and I will buy it. One wonders how that CG will look, but even if it doesn't look great it doesn't really matter, because most of the effects are not CG in the first place. It was done on film with models, etc. and edited on film for release.

I mention this because Star Trek: TNG would be much harder to remaster in HD. Although the show was shot on film, it was edited on standard definition videotape for final broadcast. To properly remaster The Next Generation for HD, they'd have to re-edit the entire series using the original film stock. That would take forever and probably wouldn't be worth it.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Yeah, according to Wikipedia, Khan was one of the first movies to use CGI. So I stand corrected on that one.

I don't know - it just seems to fall flat to me, and I'm not saying that simply because I'm used to movies with better effects. Of course I don't expect Khan to be as whiz-bang as the latest one.

Have you seen it on a big screen? It ROCKS on big screens. Even a DVD version on a large flat-panel TV would look MUCH better than anything on a small and/or CRT TV. It's truly amazing how BAD even really good film can look on a mediocre TV. For example, in the theater, you NEVER saw "garbage matte" lines around the ships in any of the Star Wars movies, but on TV-until Lucas remastered the fun heck out of them, you could see just about every one. It's all about the odd differences in contrast and black levels between film and TV in this case, but it's there and it can make great films look very cruddy.

FWIW, that "sneak preview" of "Star Trek" that they did in Austin about 3 weeks ago? The way they got people to show up all unsuspecting was to offer them a chance to see Kahn on the big screen with a pristine print. They had the place packed. You really need to see these films from high quality prints and on a really big screen.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Thorzdad 

I have one question...Is there any explanation as to where the young Kirk gets the gasoline for the Corvette? One would assume that fossil fuels would have been long since depleted or phased-out. Or are there other instances of gasoline-engined vehicles in the time frame? (I won't be seeing the movie 'til the DVD come out.)

Probably some sort of non-fossil fuel substitute. And I can't believe it was an original 'Vette with all that Nokia crap in the dash, either. I felt from the time I saw the car in the trailer that it HAD to be a repro. Otherwise, Jim Kirk still deserves a kick in the pants for dropping it off that cliff. (I just do not want to go to "where did they get that huge gorge in Iowa?" at all...) Of course the stepdad that had the Nokia crap installed needs a bunch of those kicks too.

[SpaceMonkey]

Also, was that cop supposed to be a robot?

Which leads to a tangent: doesn't it seem that robotics are noticeably absent from the Star Trek universe?

[Dakar V]

Speaking of the gorge, let's hear it for Kirk hanging precariously off a ledge no less than three times in this movie.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey 

Also, was that cop supposed to be a robot?

Which leads to a tangent: doesn't it seem that robotics are noticeably absent from the Star Trek universe?

No the cop acted and moved very human. He had stuff on his helmet and visor to I guess give him lots of data on what he was doing, but he was a guy. Otherwise, why would he have a separate air bike? A "Cop-Bot" could have been vehicle and officer in one, right?

[sek929]

Originally Posted by Dakar V 

Speaking of the gorge, let's hear it for Kirk hanging precariously off a ledge no less than three times in this movie.

He must've taken lessons from Morpheus in Matrix: Reloaded.

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

No the cop acted and moved very human. He had stuff on his helmet and visor to I guess give him lots of data on what he was doing, but he was a guy. Otherwise, why would he have a separate air bike? A "Cop-Bot" could have been vehicle and officer in one, right?

True. I guess it was just his Robocop vocal delivery that did it for me.

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by sek929 

He must've taken lessons from Morpheus in Matrix: Reloaded.

...I don't remember (Other than the helicopter).

[sek929]

The whole scene where he is fighting the agent on top of the moving semi, he lands on the very edge like 7 times in the span of 5 minutes.

[Dakar V]

Oh yeah, my head was in the wrong movie.

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by Dakar V 

Speaking of the gorge, let's hear it for Kirk hanging precariously off a ledge no less than three times in this movie.

Forget that. Let's hear it for Kirk getting it on no less than...well, just once, I guess. Mirror universe!

[dzp111]

Kirk was an avid rock climber (without harnesses), if I remember correctly from another movie.

[Dakar V]

What does that have to do with anything?

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I mention this because Star Trek: TNG would be much harder to remaster in HD. Although the show was shot on film, it was edited on standard definition videotape for final broadcast. To properly remaster The Next Generation for HD, they'd have to re-edit the entire series using the original film stock. That would take forever and probably wouldn't be worth it.

Anything involving TNG is worth it. ANYTHING.

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Have you seen it on a big screen? It ROCKS on big screens. Even a DVD version on a large flat-panel TV would look MUCH better than anything on a small and/or CRT TV. It's truly amazing how BAD even really good film can look on a mediocre TV. For example, in the theater, you NEVER saw "garbage matte" lines around the ships in any of the Star Wars movies, but on TV-until Lucas remastered the fun heck out of them, you could see just about every one. It's all about the odd differences in contrast and black levels between film and TV in this case, but it's there and it can make great films look very cruddy.

FWIW, that "sneak preview" of "Star Trek" that they did in Austin about 3 weeks ago? The way they got people to show up all unsuspecting was to offer them a chance to see Kahn on the big screen with a pristine print. They had the place packed. You really need to see these films from high quality prints and on a really big screen.

I'll watch it this weekend on my LCD TV and get back with you. Last time I saw it was indeed on a 27" CRT HDTV.

[finboy]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Anything involving TNG is worth it. ANYTHING.

I'll watch it this weekend on my LCD TV and get back with you. Last time I saw it was indeed on a 27" CRT HDTV.

The TWK model shots are nice IMO. They make it worth seeing just by themselves. We watched the original DVD version upconverted to 42" the other night, and it was pretty spectacular.

I remember reading that Khan was going to be shown in Austin, it caused a stir. ANYTIME you can watch something projected is good. Rita Wilson (Tom Hanks' wife) says he used to make a big deal about how many times he'd watched "2001" on the big screen -- I can understand. Now LCDs are bringing back that same scrutiny of bygone films, and I love it.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Anything involving TNG is worth it. ANYTHING.

Heh. If you pay for it, I'm sure they'll do it.

I'm not convinced the business case is there to do it for all episodes of all TNG seasons, given the enormous amount of work necessary. How many of you here would actually buy all the TNG seasons if they remastered them to HD? I wouldn't, and I'm a Trek fan in a Trek thread.

They are remastering all of the original series, but it's easier to do it, and the cost is supposedly much less. Even though the film has faded, at least the detail is still there, because the final edited version is on film. They did spend some time redoing some shots in CG, but from what I gather it's way easier to do all that than to reedit the entire TNG series from the original film stock.

I'll watch it this weekend on my LCD TV and get back with you. Last time I saw it was indeed on a 27" CRT HDTV.

BTW, I watched the first season of the original Trek series on HD DVD on a 90" HD projection screen. It looks great. Obviously it's not as detailed as watching some movie from 2009, but it's not surprisingly way better than watching even the remastered DVDs upscaled. (The HD DVDs have the remastered HD DVD on one side, and the remastered DVD on the other, so I could do a direct comparison.)



I'm really looking forward to Wrath of Khan on Blu-ray. I have The Thing (from the same era) on HD DVD, and while again it's not up to 2009 standards, the image improvement over DVD is very noticeable.

[Dakar V]

The re-done effects for TOS should be held up to everyone as to how you update special effects while staying true to the original.

[dzp111]

Originally Posted by dzp111 

Kirk was an avid rock climber (without harnesses), if I remember correctly from another movie.

Originally Posted by Dakar V 

What does that have to do with anything?

Someone mentioned the fact that he hangs at the edge of a cliff a few times in the movie. It made me recall the fact that rock climbing was a hobby of his in later movies. It's just a connection I made. No biggie.

[starman]

I'd be VERY surprised if they go through the trouble of remastering EVERY TNG episode. I can see maybe doing a handful of the best ones, but all seven seasons? No way. There's not enough interest anymore to get back the money they'd invest in it.

You'd have to:

Rescan every frame of every episode. Seven seasons x ~22 episodes per season = 154 episodes, ~42 minutes each. That's a lot of damn scanning.

Then go back into each episode, and properly frame and color correct them.

Then put in the special effects.

Then remaster the audio for each show.

Not going to happen.

[Dakar V]

I'd be surprised if they went to the trouble for a best of.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by mrtew 

If so wouldn't the universe constantly be starting over with new realities every time some crap gets sucked into a black hole anywhere, presumably every second of every day?

How do you know it isn't?

[Dakar V]

We already knew there were a ton of alternate realities.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by starman 

I'd be VERY surprised if they go through the trouble of remastering EVERY TNG episode. I can see maybe doing a handful of the best ones, but all seven seasons? No way. There's not enough interest anymore to get back the money they'd invest in it.

You'd have to:

Rescan every frame of every episode. Seven seasons x ~22 episodes per season = 154 episodes, ~42 minutes each. That's a lot of damn scanning.

Then go back into each episode, and properly frame and color correct them.

Then put in the special effects.

Then remaster the audio for each show.

Not going to happen.

You forgot the kicker. TNG was not edited on film. The film they have is the unedited footage. The edits for the final version were done on videotape, at standard definition resolution.

Thus they'd have to scan a lot more film than just 42 minutes worth per episode, and then match up the edit points with the beta videotapes.

The reason I mention this is because what you describe is essentially what they did with the 3 seasons of the original series. Scanned it all in, cleaned it all up, remastered the audio, and redid much of the special effects.

[Oneota]

Originally Posted by Eug 

You forgot the kicker. TNG was not edited on film. The film they have is the unedited footage. The edits for the final version were done on videotape, at standard definition resolution.

Thus they'd have to scan a lot more film than just 42 minutes worth per episode, and then match up the edit points with the beta videotapes.

The reason I mention this is because what you describe is essentially what they did with the 3 seasons of the original series. Scanned it all in, cleaned it all up, remastered the audio, and redid much of the special effects.

If they did it (and that's the big IF), I would buy it in a heartbeat. That, and DS9, and I already have most of DS9 on DVD. I'd re-buy it in remastered HD (not just upconverted), that's how much I enjoy these shows. I suspect I'm not alone.

[Chuckit]

It's a bummer, because TNG was far and away the best of the Star Trek series.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

It's a bummer, because TNG was far and away the best of the Star Trek series.

Not for me. I prefer the TOS, mainly because Spock and Kirk are my fave characters, and I found characters like Wesley Crusher and Deanna Troi annoying. "He's hiding something, Captain."

Some of my favourite Trek episodes are with TNG though, like "The Inner Light".

Suffice it to say though, even though I like Trek a lot and TNG too, even this Trekkie/er wouldn't buy all 7 seasons of TNG on Blu-ray. I suspect that's what the studios are afraid of, and for good reason, and thus I think it's quite unlikely they'll devote the time and money to remastering TNG for HD.

[starman]

Originally Posted by Eug 

You forgot the kicker. TNG was not edited on film. The film they have is the unedited footage. The edits for the final version were done on videotape, at standard definition resolution.

Thus they'd have to scan a lot more film than just 42 minutes worth per episode, and then match up the edit points with the beta videotapes.

The reason I mention this is because what you describe is essentially what they did with the 3 seasons of the original series. Scanned it all in, cleaned it all up, remastered the audio, and redid much of the special effects.

Isn't that what I just said?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Not for me. I prefer the TOS, mainly because Spock and Kirk are my fave characters, and I found characters like Wesley Crusher and Deanna Troi annoying. "He's hiding something, Captain."

Some of my favourite Trek episodes are with TNG though, like "The Inner Light".

Suffice it to say though, even though I like Trek a lot and TNG too, even this Trekkie/er wouldn't buy all 7 seasons of TNG on Blu-ray. I suspect that's what the studios are afraid of, and for good reason, and thus I think it's quite unlikely they'll devote the time and money to remastering TNG for HD.

TOS' plots were hokey as all get-out. It was pretty novel for its day, but much like Guess Who's Coming To Dinner, as culture has progressed, nowadays the preachiness and flaws in the storytelling stand out much more starkly. TNG sometimes fell into that too, especially in the first season, but it managed to transcend it. In my eyes, TOS didn't really grow up until The Wrath of Khan. (Ironically, TNG devolved when it moved to the big screen. I still say All Good Things… would have made a much better movie than any of the actual films from that series.)

[Thorzdad]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Hokey smoke...that new version is horrible. The planet in the original version is far more effective, much more atmospheric and mysterious, I don't care how "accurate" the new version is. That old planet has far more impact. That new one looks like a flat disc.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

TOS' plots were hokey as all get-out. It was pretty novel for its day, but much like Guess Who's Coming To Dinner, as culture has progressed, nowadays the preachiness and flaws in the storytelling stand out much more starkly. TNG sometimes fell into that too, especially in the first season, but it managed to transcend it. In my eyes, TOS didn't really grow up until The Wrath of Khan. (Ironically, TNG devolved when it moved to the big screen. I still say All Good Things… would have made a much better movie than any of the actual films from that series.)

One of my favourite Trek episodes of all time is Mirror, Mirror.



Another favourite Trek episode of all time is Journey To Babel.



Spock: There is no logic in the attack on the Captain. There is no logic in Gav's murder.
Shras: Perhaps you should forget about logic, and devote yourself to motivation and passion and gain. Those are reasons for murder.

I thought their plots were good, but even better were the character analyses.

TNG's The Inner Light is in my top 5, but I'm not sure where. Maybe in the top 3.

[Dakar V]

City on the Edge of Forever needs props.

[scottiB]

Indeed.

I liked the TOS ep where the anthropologist defied the Prime Directive and created a Fascistic society. Eh, found the title: "Patterns of Force".

[Dakar V]

I'm a sucker for SS unis.

[G Barnett]

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey 

Forget that. Let's hear it for Kirk getting it on no less than...well, just once, I guess. Mirror universe!

Well, it wasn't for lack of trying, though.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by G Barnett 

Well, it wasn't for lack of trying, though.

I wanted to see him putting on his boots.

Originally Posted by Dakar V 

I'm a sucker for SS unis.

This thread is about Kirk's (and Uhura's and Spock's) sex life, not yours.

[Dakar V]

That's... an interesting connection to make.