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UK Riots (Page 2)
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Doofy  (op)
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Aug 10, 2011, 09:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I don't own a TV because I can't afford one. I don't own one because I don't want my mind polluted with the crap that's on it.
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screener
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Aug 11, 2011, 04:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
I don't own one because I don't want my mind polluted with the crap that's on it.
Ah jeez, another one.
Afraid of being seduced so ignores it all.
Must be tough not being able to be a discerning viewer.
A trip to the library or book store must be especially terrifying for you.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Aug 11, 2011, 05:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
I don't own a TV because I can't afford one. I don't own one because I don't want my mind polluted with the crap that's on it.
Mine is mostly for fiction and football. The occasional science-y thing when somebody bothers to show a good one.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Waragainstsleep
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Aug 11, 2011, 05:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by screener View Post
Ah jeez, another one.
Afraid of being seduced so ignores it all.
Must be tough not being able to be a discerning viewer.
A trip to the library or book store must be especially terrifying for you.
Don't you read Doof's posts? He's connected. None of us can comprehend just how connected he is. They probably have to run the news by him before they broadcast it.

I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Doofy  (op)
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Aug 11, 2011, 07:55 AM
 
No matter.
I don't get why yet another thread seems to have become about me. More ad hominem 'coz you can't stay on topic, boys?
( Last edited by Doofy; Aug 11, 2011 at 08:27 AM. )
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Doofy  (op)
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Aug 11, 2011, 07:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by screener View Post
Ah jeez, another one.
Afraid of being seduced so ignores it all.
Must be tough not being able to be a discerning viewer.
A trip to the library or book store must be especially terrifying for you.
So in your mind, TV = reading?
No wonder you have problems with your responses to everyone here.
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Doofy  (op)
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Aug 11, 2011, 09:57 AM
 
BBC News - Nottingham district judge hits out at riot sentences

A district judge dealing with cases relating to disorder in Nottingham has said people should speak to the government if sentences seemed lenient.

Tim Devas, district judge at Nottingham Magistrates Court, also told Craig Cave, 26, of Burrows Avenue, Beeston, to "sort his life out".

Cave was found guilty of obstructing the police and was fined £60.

Mr Devas went on to ask Cave if he now felt ashamed about being one of the "hundreds of yobbos" arrested.
That's about $100 folks.
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turtle777
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Aug 11, 2011, 10:25 AM
 


Seriously, though, they should re-introduce public flogging, tarring and feathering.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/08/...al-but-it.html

-t
     
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Aug 11, 2011, 11:00 AM
 

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Doofy  (op)
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Aug 11, 2011, 11:12 AM
 
First watch this:
Hackney (London) riots - police V.S. Angry Black Men - YouTube

Check the peaceful oppressed rasta in the green trackie.
OK?

Now watch the last 20 seconds of this:
Injured foreign youth mugged during UK riots - YouTube

I don't know about whipping them. A public spectacle with a huge pink dildo rammed up his arse with a jackhammer, more like. Let's see how many want to carry on being cretins if they know they're going to get a public reaming.
(Yes, I'm all about the cruel and unusual punishment. I should be minister in charge of it.)
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Aug 11, 2011, 11:32 AM
 
National Service would solve most of these problems.
     
screener
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Aug 11, 2011, 02:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
So in your mind, TV = reading?
What an entertaining comment.
Enough said.
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
No wonder you have problems with your responses to everyone here.
Really?
I thought you were made of sterner stuff than some here who ignore what they don't like to hear.
     
k2director
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Aug 11, 2011, 04:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by mattyb View Post
National Service would solve most of these problems.
I doubt it.

First of all, there would be a good chance of national service efforts becoming corrupted by the apathetic youth.

Why would being summoned to clean up neighborhood trash or paint a community center suddenly motivate these kids? If they refused to work, or work effectively, then what recourse would the state have? Would the state cut off their public assistance, or their family's? I highly doubt it, since that goes against the whole idea of the British welfare state. Would the British throw the kids in jail? Again, not a chance, the argument would be made that putting a non-violent kid in jail would only further corrupt them (probably right, too). Would the state fine the kids? If they have no money, or they're considered too poor for an onerous fine, then what good does a fine do? Realistically, the nanny state really doesn't have any tools to force apathetic kids to work, just like it has no tools to force apathetic kids to do well in school. You can sit them in a classroom for 8 hours a day, but that hardly means they're going to take their education seriously.

Second, even if a National Service program in Britain showed some positive results, it would keep kids artificially propped up for a year or two, and then they'd be released back into "the wild" and they'd face the same debiliating environment that they do now: i.e., a nanny state that largely lets them live without work, lets them atrophy like zoo animals, and in fact reduces any jobs that might be available to them by maintaining a high-tax, high regulation environment (which suppresses business growth, the heart of job creation).

No, the more likely outcome of a national service program in Britain would be yet another government agency that starts small, then fails to address the problem and is given more money, then again fails to address the problem and is given even more money, etc. etc. until it's just another bloated, massive, byzantine beaurocracy that sucks up money and jobs from private industry (the real job creators), that further entrenches the nanny state because more Britons will be employed by it and not want to see their jobs ever trimmed, and *still* delivers no real benefit.

THERE'S ONLY ONE LEGITIMATE WAY OUT OF THIS SOCIALIST MESS FOR BRITAIN, THE U.S. AND PRETTY MUCH EVERYONE ELSE: in *general*, let people fend for themselves. When they fail, let them live with the consequences. When they succeed, let them enjoy their success without treating them like a gravy train, forcing them to heavily subsidize the laziness or bad decisions or bad luck of others. There will be some hard adjustments for people to make, but soon they will realize that they have to rely on themselves, and most of them (given my faith in the vast majority of humanity) will become independent because of it.
     
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Aug 11, 2011, 04:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by k2director View Post
THERE'S ONLY ONE LEGITIMATE WAY OUT OF THIS SOCIALIST MESS FOR BRITAIN, THE U.S. AND PRETTY MUCH EVERYONE ELSE: in *general*, let people fend for themselves. When they fail, let them live with the consequences. When they succeed, let them enjoy their success without treating them like a gravy train, forcing them to heavily subsidize the laziness or bad decisions or bad luck of others. There will be some hard adjustments for people to make, but soon they will realize that they have to rely on themselves, and most of them (given my faith in the vast majority of humanity) will become independent because of it.


I still think public flogging would be more effective than most other things, but it's gonna be a moment until we get broad support for that

-t
     
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Aug 11, 2011, 05:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post


I still think public flogging would be more effective than most other things, but it's gonna be a moment until we get broad support for that

-t
I'd definitely use flogging and public shaming as a tool.

I was reading about the rioters being processed through London courts and how some of them were simply getting $100 fines....for looting! That's way too lax. There's nothing wrong with giving 20 flogs to rioters that contribute to the breakdown of civilization.

Also, why not bring back public stocks for shaming miscreants? Why not have these kids stand in busy public places with irons around their legs, with signs that say "LOOTER" or "THIEF" hung around their necks, and their photos published in newspapers? Why is this considered bad form? That would be far more effective at discouraging future bad behavior than a fine (which most of them will simply get back from the government anyway!).

What the hell is wrong with the Britain of today? They revere all of those statues and paintings of historical British leaders, but those historical figures would be appalled if they could see how spineless Britons have become. I can't see Nelson handing out $100 fines to looters. Or Wellington dolling out free housing. Or Chinese Gordon opening up the flood gates to waves of poor, uneducated immigrants who immediately go on the public dole.

In other words, it's not just the British kids who are sick...
     
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Aug 11, 2011, 06:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by k2director View Post
What the hell is wrong with the Britain of today?
Lefties - too many of them. That's what's wrong with Shitain today.
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Aug 11, 2011, 08:55 PM
 
What ever happened to minding your own damn business? The underclass wants to rob us, and the ruling elite wants to tax us. Both these group need to settle down and mind their own affairs.
     
turtle777
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Aug 11, 2011, 10:33 PM
 
Good luck with that

-t
     
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Aug 12, 2011, 09:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by k2director View Post
I doubt it.
This is the sort of National Service that I was talking about.

One could argue that these looters were indeed fending for themselves when running away with the latest flat screen TV.

While the 'let the strongest survive' mantra does have some appealing traits, I personally like to have a safety net when some highly paid fatso decides that $1 billion profit isn't enough, we want $2 billion so we'll lay off 10,000 people. Of course, the limits of this safety net are extremely hard to define, and even harder to get a decent sized population to agree on.
     
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Aug 12, 2011, 12:42 PM
 
It is getting ridiculous. Our prisons are supposedly overcrowded so people committing burglaries are just let off with feeble or non existent sentences.

I think the answer is bigger fines. This is the only way to punish most people. Save the cells for the violent offenders and the sickos, the thieves and petty scumbags should just get massive fines. Of course people will say "but how will they pay for them? By stealing?" Not in my system.

The most important part of the penal system that the government needs to overhaul is community service. If you can't pay with money, you pay with time. And hard work.
And when I say pay with money, I mean if you don't have a job (regardless of if you collect welfare money) you have to work it off. After they go to your house and repossess everything of value. You don't need a TV, a PS3 an Xbox or a PC. Even your Blackberry is a luxury item. Take the lot and don't even credit full market value for it. Look to make a profit. £50 off your debt for a PS3, £25 for the BB etc. And if the serial numbers on any of it came up as stolen it doesn't count of course. In fact, it gets added to your bill at twice market value.
As soon as you get a fine, if you are have no job you work 5 days a week and a 6th day you MUST attend a job centre and/or job interviews. You have to wear one of those snazzy GPS tags until your debt is paid too.

Time to bring back the chain gang.

As for the violent sickos who are locked up full time, they should be required to learn a trade. No choice whatsoever. Thats proper rehab. Those who fail don't get out until the succeed otherwise there seems little point in letting them out.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Aug 12, 2011, 01:52 PM
 
I see nothing wrong with lashes for stealing. First offence 10 lashes. Second offence 30 lashes and so on. 4th offence the mandatory removal of the criminals penis. If that's not incentive then the death penalty for the 5th offence.
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Aug 12, 2011, 02:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by k2director View Post
THERE'S ONLY ONE LEGITIMATE WAY OUT OF THIS SOCIALIST MESS FOR BRITAIN, THE U.S. AND PRETTY MUCH EVERYONE ELSE: in *general*, let people fend for themselves. When they fail, let them live with the consequences. When they succeed, let them enjoy their success without treating them like a gravy train, forcing them to heavily subsidize the laziness or bad decisions or bad luck of others. There will be some hard adjustments for people to make, but soon they will realize that they have to rely on themselves, and most of them (given my faith in the vast majority of humanity) will become independent because of it.
Worked out great for Somalia.
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Aug 12, 2011, 03:39 PM
 
On a related note:

Philly curfew begins tonight to combat 'flash mob' violence

Of course, it's purely by chance that the majority of those kids are black.

In announcing the curfew, Mayor Michael Nutter blamed the "terrible acts" on a "small number of reckless teenagers who have damaged our city and our citizens."

On Sunday, Nutter, who is African American, mounted the pulpit at Mount Carmel Baptist Church in West Philadelphia to scold the troublemakers by saying "you have damaged your race," BET reports.

An excerpt from his remarks to the congregation:

"If you walk into somebody's office with your hair uncombed and a pick in the back, and your shoes untied, and your pants half-down, tattoos up and down your arms and on your neck, and you wonder why somebody won't hire you? They don't hire you 'cause you look like you're crazy."
Of course, the usual suspects around here would blame it on racism.

-t
     
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Aug 13, 2011, 08:12 PM
 
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Aug 13, 2011, 09:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
I see nothing wrong with lashes for stealing. First offence 10 lashes. Second offence 30 lashes and so on. 4th offence the mandatory removal of the criminals penis. If that's not incentive then the death penalty for the 5th offence.
Originally Posted by k2director View Post
I'd definitely use flogging and public shaming as a tool.

Also, why not bring back public stocks for shaming miscreants? Why not have these kids stand in busy public places with irons around their legs, with signs that say "LOOTER" or "THIEF" hung around their necks, and their photos published in newspapers? Why is this considered bad form? That would be far more effective at discouraging future bad behavior than a fine (which most of them will simply get back from the government anyway!).
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
I still think public flogging would be more effective than most other things, but it's gonna be a moment until we get broad support for that
Gee, why don't we just shoot 'em and charge the families for the bullet?

The American gov't invaded Iraq on a lie and killed tens of thousands of innocent people in the process, tortured captives for info, handed over the citizens of other countries like Canada to Islamic nations to be tortured, illegally monitored American phone calls and emails, and on and on and on .... but a little rioting, and that's what makes you guys demand medieval methods of punishment?
     
turtle777
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Aug 13, 2011, 09:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Gee, why don't we just shoot 'em and charge the families for the bullet?

The American gov't invaded Iraq on a lie and killed tens of thousands of innocent people in the process, tortured captives for info, handed over the citizens of other countries like Canada to Islamic nations to be tortured, illegally monitored American phone calls and emails, and on and on and on...
Did I ever defend any of this ?

Nice straw man, btw. What has this to do with being tough on rioters and looters ?

-t
     
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Aug 13, 2011, 09:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Did I ever defend any of this ?
Did you recommend public flogging for torture and invasions? No, you waited until a few shops were looted to start recommending public flogging.
     
turtle777
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Aug 13, 2011, 09:53 PM
 
So let's hear your grandiose ideas how to treat the rioters and looters.

Probably involved handouts and gifts.

-t
     
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Aug 13, 2011, 10:09 PM
 
They already have laws on the books for this situation. There's no need for an upheaval in how rioters and looters are prosecuted.
     
turtle777
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Aug 13, 2011, 10:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
They already have laws on the books for this situation. There's no need for an upheaval in how rioters and looters are prosecuted.
Seriously ? Have you been following the news ?

Some looters have been let go with a $100 fine. That's it.

There might be laws, but they are not being used. And throwing hundreds of kids into prison is really not a great option - there are not enough prison resources, and it's too expensive. Flogging, on the other hand, is cheap and effective.

-t
     
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Aug 14, 2011, 12:18 AM
 
Lets see rioters/looters try that in a state like Texas. Or give it a shot on my street. I'm thinking the outcome would be a *little* different.
     
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Aug 14, 2011, 08:20 AM
 
Looting has been destructive enough, but some of these mobs have also committed arson and burned people out of their homes-and potentially killed people via arson. At least 5 people have been killed by rioters. Someone was helping to set these riots up, and you'll note that there have been reports of some people, older than the typically presented "disgruntled late teen" rioter, who have been seen wearing masks and apparently leading the charge toward smashing, vandalizing and looting. My sense is that someone has been actively organizing these riots through a combination of inciting social media use and actually showing the kids how to burn places down. These organizers are who need some serious penalties, and I would not exclude the possibility of murder charges, as the victims would not have been injured if the riots hadn't been started in the first place.

I suggested water canon for handling mobs, and I stand by that. But I think anyone who participated in any of the violence, against property or people, should face really significant penalties. Punishments that are trivial have no deterrent effect at all, and that is a problem here.

As rambo47 points out, in places where the public is not afraid to stand up to violence for fear of being punished by the government, this sort of widespread violence tends to dissipate pretty quickly. Looting in the wake of Hurricane Katrina was limited to areas where nobody was around to prevent it, while in areas where people stuck it out and made it clear that they would not simply roll over, there was little attempt to regress to barbarism. By "taking care" of the populace, the British government has in effect built a culture of dependence, and has now recently failed that dependent population by not stopping the riots immediately. I'm not blaming the police, but rather the system set up over many decades and made even more dependence-oriented in the last 15-20 years. With the laws on the books now, Britain needs to have far more police and have them involved in just about every interaction of two people in public. I kind of doubt that is either acceptable by the British people, or doable within the power and resources of the British government.

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Aug 14, 2011, 04:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by rambo47 View Post
Lets see rioters/looters try that in a state like Texas. Or give it a shot on my street. I'm thinking the outcome would be a *little* different.
Yeah, there'd be lots more dead people, yay!
(Hint: the police and the population wouldn't be the only ones with guns.)
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Doofy  (op)
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Aug 14, 2011, 04:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Yeah, there'd be lots more dead people, yay!
(Hint: the police and the population wouldn't be the only ones with guns.)
The criminals already have guns. That's why CO19 shoot them.
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Aug 14, 2011, 05:16 PM
 
From my experience here, criminals tend to be quite poor shots, not understand the firearm they possess, and experience problems if anyone returns fire. In short, they are only big and bad if they are the only ones with guns. One rather strong effect of having concealed carry is that the bad guys have to second guess themselves a lot, not knowing who is or is not armed. This is demonstrated by the statistical reduction of violent crime rates in places like Texas where concealed carry is legal.

Riots like the ones in England tend to be about momentum. If one or two shop owners had Mace or a Taser and dropped the hoodlums smashing their windows in their tracks, that momentum could be disrupted. Instead of acting as if they were supposed to be smashing and burning, the punks and vandals might have started looking over their shoulders, and tried to see if the shop they wanted to rob was occupied, which slows things down enough to let police break things up. Of course if a shop owner in Britain used a cricket bat to defend himself, he'd likely wind up in jail himself, which sort of illustrates my earlier point.

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Aug 14, 2011, 05:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Of course if a shop owner in Britain used a cricket bat to defend himself, he'd likely wind up in jail himself, which sort of illustrates my earlier point.
Or beaten to a pulp by an already pumped up mob.
     
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Aug 14, 2011, 05:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
From my experience here, criminals tend to be quite poor shots, not understand the firearm they possess, and experience problems if anyone returns fire. In short, they are only big and bad if they are the only ones with guns. One rather strong effect of having concealed carry is that the bad guys have to second guess themselves a lot, not knowing who is or is not armed. This is demonstrated by the statistical reduction of violent crime rates in places like Texas where concealed carry is legal.
Very good point

-t
     
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Aug 14, 2011, 06:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Some looters have been let go with a $100 fine. That's it.
So what? The prosecutors certainly offered a light punishment because they had a weak case. When they have strong cases, they will throw the book at them.
     
turtle777
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Aug 14, 2011, 06:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
So what? The prosecutors certainly offered a light punishment because they had a weak case. When they have strong cases, they will throw the book at them.
Bullshit. The system is broken, that's why they got away with a wrist slap.

-t
     
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Aug 14, 2011, 07:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
So what? The prosecutors certainly offered a light punishment because they had a weak case. When they have strong cases, they will throw the book at them.
Prosecutors don't offer punishments here.

The system is broken because there's too many lefties being limp-wristed.
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Aug 15, 2011, 04:18 PM
 
     
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Aug 15, 2011, 04:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
So what? The prosecutors certainly offered a light punishment because they had a weak case. When they have strong cases, they will throw the book at them.
I gotta side with the hard-asses here.
Not the flogging crap but harsher punishment.
Both of us being Canadian and the leniency shown here for everything including murder is just asinine, you have to admit.
     
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Aug 15, 2011, 05:14 PM
 
No one knows what drove these rioters yet, but one thing seems clear, the government and the media are beginning to ramp up the gang and roof culture excuses to the exclusion of other ideas already. It does seem that these riots were almost uniquely widespread in their social make up, and this fact seems to be being deliberately ignored or downplayed. Gangs etc are a much easier target to crack down on and mean our society doesn't need to look as hard at the faults that have built up.

I suspect that the riots at least partially reflex the current zeitgeist (as helpfully spread from the top down) that it's fine to look out for yourself to the exclusion of all else and that any means justify the end in the pursuit of getting what you want and damning the consequences.

The last three years have been full of the visible result of what happens when the upper echelons of society follow this code, rioting on the streets is the most accessible expression of the same ideology further down the social scale.
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turtle777
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Aug 15, 2011, 05:18 PM
 
Read the link that I posted above. It's pretty clear that the riots are merely a logical consequence of the UK accepting violence and public drunkeness for years and years.

-t
     
lpkmckenna
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Aug 15, 2011, 05:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by screener View Post
Both of us being Canadian and the leniency shown here for everything including murder is just asinine, you have to admit.
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screener
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Aug 15, 2011, 05:53 PM
 
You remember Jane Creba right?
Toronto News: Inside the Jane Creba murder investigation - thestar.com
Who was charged in Creba's death
Jorrell Simpson-Rowe – Charged with second-degree murder and six counts of attempted murder. A jury convicts him in December 2008 of second degree murder and two counts of aggravated assault. He was later sentenced to life in prison with no parole for seven years.
Jeremiah Valentine – Charged with Second-degree murder and six counts of attempted murder. He pleads guilty on Dec. 22, 2009 to second-degree murder and was sentenced to life with no parole for 12 years.
Only in Canada eh?
     
lpkmckenna
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Aug 15, 2011, 06:56 PM
 
I don't see a problem.
     
Doofy  (op)
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Aug 15, 2011, 06:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
No one knows what drove these rioters yet, but one thing seems clear, the government and the media are beginning to ramp up the gang and roof culture excuses to the exclusion of other ideas already. It does seem that these riots were almost uniquely widespread in their social make up, and this fact seems to be being deliberately ignored or downplayed. Gangs etc are a much easier target to crack down on and mean our society doesn't need to look as hard at the faults that have built up.

I suspect that the riots at least partially reflex the current zeitgeist (as helpfully spread from the top down) that it's fine to look out for yourself to the exclusion of all else and that any means justify the end in the pursuit of getting what you want and damning the consequences.

The last three years have been full of the visible result of what happens when the upper echelons of society follow this code, rioting on the streets is the most accessible expression of the same ideology further down the social scale.
And it's talk like that which is responsible for the riots.

Here's your reason for the riots: The people involved are twats. And twats, when allowed to be twats without fear of consequences tend to be very very twattish.

It's not consumerist society. It's not Thatcher's fault. It's not a lack of opportunity. It's twats not being slapped down. End of story.

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Waragainstsleep
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Aug 15, 2011, 07:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
And it's talk like that which is responsible for the riots.

Here's your reason for the riots: The people involved are twats. And twats, when allowed to be twats without fear of consequences tend to be very very twattish.

It's not consumerist society. It's not Thatcher's fault. It's not a lack of opportunity. It's twats not being slapped down. End of story.

I agree with this pretty much entirely though its more a reason they weren't stopped than a reason they started.

I think there was a sense of general discontent (HIMYM fans salute) which was encouraged by a group of opportunist criminals who riled everyone up further and organised the riots via internet and phone networks so they could rob certain places.

As for the cause of the general discontent, there is a lot of people who have never had to lift a finger in their lives, yet they could afford to drink and smoke and play lottery scratchcards while they watch Sky Sports on their LCDTVs with surround sound but now they are facing the very real prospect of actually being better off if they get a job and work for a living instead of sponging off those us who have the decency to work and pay our own way.
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Doofy  (op)
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Aug 15, 2011, 10:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I agree with this pretty much entirely though its more a reason they weren't stopped than a reason they started.
Thing is, to join in with that kind of activity requires a certain kind of attitude - and the attitude in question is "I can do what I want". This attitude is a result of not enough slaps. Or listening to too much Rage Against The Machine. Or both.

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