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Do you agree with this sentiment? (Page 4)
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subego
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Aug 25, 2015, 01:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I need an expert to tell me whether this common practice, by PP or in general.
I am an expert in psychology.

My understanding is the video (which I haven't watched) shows parts being sorted through at a PP.

PP hasn't apologized for that. All they've apologized for is displaying a callous attitude.

If harvesting fetuses past part sorting age was an isolated incident, they would have acknowledged it right off the bat.
     
The Final Dakar
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Aug 25, 2015, 01:59 PM
 
Here's the problem: If I believe what googlenews tells me, a few states have already cleared PP. Are they from the same states that these videos are from? No idea. There's no simple checklist of names, places, and investigations that I've found.
     
Chongo
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Aug 25, 2015, 02:21 PM
 
     
Chongo
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Aug 25, 2015, 02:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Here's the problem: If I believe what googlenews tells me, a few states have already cleared PP. Are they from the same states that these videos are from? No idea. There's no simple checklist of names, places, and investigations that I've found.
Were they CA and TX?
     
The Final Dakar
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Aug 25, 2015, 02:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Were they CA and TX?
Definitely not.
     
subego
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Aug 25, 2015, 07:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Here's the problem: If I believe what googlenews tells me, a few states have already cleared PP. Are they from the same states that these videos are from? No idea. There's no simple checklist of names, places, and investigations that I've found.
This is what I'm finding so confusing about this story.

Every single story I've seen says the accusation is PP profits off the tissue, and PP has been cleared of that in all investigations into that so far.

What I've been told here is that the issue is violently killing the fetus so the tissue remains viable.

Has this been been investigated? Note, unlike the profit thing, AFAICT violent termination isn't illegal if the baby's head isn't outside the mother, so I'm not quite sure what there is to investigate. The problem isn't they've broken the law, but have had something of a moral relapse in thinking there aren't serious ethical questions about violent termination, even if the results are used for a good cause.


Related to this is the question of who buried the lead. Was this originally presented as a profit problem by the video makers, and the violence angle gathered it's own steam?
     
subego
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Aug 25, 2015, 08:30 PM
 
     
Chongo
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Aug 25, 2015, 11:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
This is what I'm finding so confusing about this story.

Every single story I've seen says the accusation is PP profits off the tissue, and PP has been cleared of that in all investigations into that so far.

What I've been told here is that the issue is violently killing the fetus so the tissue remains viable.

Has this been been investigated? Note, unlike the profit thing, AFAICT violent termination isn't illegal if the baby's head isn't outside the mother, so I'm not quite sure what there is to investigate. The problem isn't they've broken the law, but have had something of a moral relapse in thinking there aren't serious ethical questions about violent termination, even if the results are used for a good cause.


Related to this is the question of who buried the lead. Was this originally presented as a profit problem by the video makers, and the violence angle gathered it's own steam?
It's both. Yes I know The Daily Signal is a Heritage Foundation site.
3 Ways Planned Parenthood May Be Violating the Law

In the videos Holly O'Donnel, former SE Procurement Tech, talks about being there at the PP facility in CA. There was no collection, storage, or shipping costs incurred by PP, yet SE "reimbursed" PP?
In the TX facility, the sponsors have FedEx accounts setup and PP printed up the labels and shipped at no charge to PP
SE brochure
http://www.centerformedicalprogress....ress-flyer.pdf
Money quote from Snow-i post last week
Baby's heart still beating after abortion, doctor says in new anti-abortion video | Fox News
"Exactly what is being done to obtain these intact bodies needs to be investigated," a statement released Wednesday from pro-life group Priests for Life said. "Federal law prohibits abortion procedures that partially or fully deliver a living baby. Philadelphia abortionist Kermit Gosnell is serving life in prison because he aborted babies who were still alive when they came out of the mother’s body. If Planned Parenthood is not fully investigated and prosecuted for these offenses, then we owe Gosnell an apology."
     
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Aug 26, 2015, 02:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Jesus Christ, talk about a strawman. All I said was I wouldn't be forthcoming if I was them. I didn't say they were above investigation.
Do you think there should be an investigation into this? I apologize if I'm misreading your position.

You're still coming from an assumption that all their researchable fetuses are being acquired(aborted) illegally. That may be the case, but as I said, I'll wait for some more objective and informed people to weigh in.
No, I'm coming from the position that at least one was so maybe it'd be worthwhile to check for more, and determine the chain events that allowed that one to happen.
That's not what I said.
Ok, I'm not sure where else you're going with that, then? What other relevance could "icky science helps us" have to the discussion? I'm not trying to understate the value here, but I highly doubt this has anything to do with research and/or science. I'm not talking PP overall, I'm talking about the cash for baby parts.
That's not what I said, either.
Ok, Dakar, give me this then. How does the practices described by these "doctors" benefit society? If you're going to allude to the fact that these practices somehow benefit society as a whole, you're going to have to explain to me how.

Are you talking about the guys buying the parts? Pretty sure we can find a much, much better way to get that done.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Aug 26, 2015, 07:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
An "intact case" as Dr. Nucatola states,is an intact baby. If PP is going to harvest organs from them, feticide cannot be used or the organs would be rendered useless. In one of the vidoes it is stated that some of the women are already delivering when they get into the procedure room.
I'm no lawyer but the law seems clear that at least the head must be external to the woman's body prior to termination for the law in question to be violated. "Already delivering" in medical terms I highly doubt is a rock solid confirmation of that condition.
If it was a case of "already delivering" naturally after a full term pregnancy, thats another law. Its also possible that delivering could apply to an already terminated foetus.

Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
In another video, one PP officials talks about altering the procedure in order to obtain what is needed. This violates one of the the laws cited.
I don't think it does. It might violate another law about more general medical care, and its certainly an ethics issue if the procedure is being tailored against the patient's best interests in order to make a sale.

This all still seems like anti-choicers seeing and hearing things they don't like and feeling like there must be crimes being committed. Thats assuming they aren't just disingenuously out to get PP like the centre for dodgy videos or whatever they're called.

So far I've been given three laws and I've even thrown in a couple myself now that you guys weren't even mentioning and no-one is even claiming there is enough evidence in these videos to get a conviction under any of those laws.

I still don't have time to watch 11 hours of dubious footage just to win an argument on the internet, but even if I did do you expect me to do your work for you? I'm not making accusations against PP, the burden of proof isn't mine.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Chongo
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Aug 26, 2015, 11:09 AM
 
Altering the abortion procedure to obtain tissue or organs illegal.
When I saw this video for the first time I realized Dr Nucatola was describing intact dilation and extraction, and that is illegal. The head is the last thing in the birth canal.
Dr. Nucatola describes altering the "procedure"
PP: It makes a huge difference. I’d say a lot of people want liver. And for that reason, most providers will do this case under ultrasound guidance, so they’ll know where they’re putting their forceps. The kind of rate-limiting step of the procedure is the calvarium, the head is basically the biggest part. Most of the other stuff can come out intact. It’s very rare to have a patient that doesn’t have enough dilation to evacuate all the other parts intact.
Buyer: To bring the body cavity out intact and all that?
PP: Exactly. So then you’re just kind of cognizant of where you put your graspers, you try to intentionally go above and below the thorax, so that, you know, we’ve been very good at getting heart, lung, liver, because we know that, so I’m not gonna crush that part, I’m going to basically crush below, I’m gonna crush above, and I’m gonna see if I can get it all intact. And with the calvarium, in general, some people will actually try to change the presentation so that it’s not vertex, because when it’s vertex presentation, you never have enough dilation at the beginning of the case, unless you have real, huge amount of dilation to deliver an intact calvarium. So if you do it starting from the breech presentation, there’s dilation that happens as the case goes on, and often, the last, you can evacuate an intact calvarium at the end. So I mean there are certainly steps that can be taken to try to ensure
( Last edited by Chongo; Aug 26, 2015 at 12:03 PM. )
     
Chongo
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Aug 26, 2015, 11:22 AM
 
Here's an interestion tiidbit:
http://www.crisismagazine.com/2015/s...nthood-scandal
The more important connection between StemExpress and Planned Parenthood is Dr. Ronald Berman, a 73 year-old abortion provider, and Medical Director at Planned Parenthood, Fresno, as well as Planned Parenthood Mountain View, CA. At the same time Berman was doing abortions for Planned Parenthood, he was also employed as Senior Medical Director at StemExpress doing the very abortions that are contributing to the bottom line of the company he works for.
     
The Final Dakar
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Aug 26, 2015, 12:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Were they CA and TX?
Another note I forgot to mention: Some article I read says laws allowing for the use of fetus body parts are only in effect in three states. I assume CA and TX are two of them (otherwise HOBOY).

That this is being used as an excuse to defund PP nationally, as well as investigate it in states where this doesn't take place reveals some bias, in my view.

Edit: Investigating it in those non-related states is a fishing expedition, as subego so aptly put for me earlier
     
The Final Dakar
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Aug 26, 2015, 01:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Do you think there should be an investigation into this? I apologize if I'm misreading your position.
I think the logical thing is to investigate those clinics involved with the doctors. If those turn-up evidence of wrong doing, then expand it to more clinics within that state. If there's widespread problems within the state, then I can understand moving to a more pro-active national scale.

To provide a contrast in reaction, if a cop says racist things and abuses his authority, the assumption is that he's a bad apple. But a PP doctors malpractice? Must be all of Planned Parenthood.
...and before the favor gets returned to me, the difference in assumptions in the practices of law enforcement is that it has a detailed history of those incidents not being isolated. That isn't the case with PP (As far as I'm aware).

Reactionary defunding is nothing more than politically motivated using current outrage as cover to ram through an agenda.


Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
No, I'm coming from the position that at least one was so maybe it'd be worthwhile to check for more, and determine the chain events that allowed that one to happen.
Not opposed, see above.

Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Ok, Dakar, give me this then. How does the practices described by these "doctors" benefit society? If you're going to allude to the fact that these practices somehow benefit society as a whole, you're going to have to explain to me how.
Not what I meant either. Again, I don't know anything about procedures and such, but if Chongo is to be believed:
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
The problem is, according to what is reported in the videos, if they babies are killed using Digoxin or other feticide prior to the abortion procedure, the organs aren't usable. The tissues are contaminated by the feticide.

Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Are you talking about the guys buying the parts? Pretty sure we can find a much, much better way to get that done.
Yes, I was talking about getting the parts.


Please don't not berate me for possible mistaken assumptions on a subject I claim to know little about and can't find clear non-biased non-technical explanations of.
     
The Final Dakar
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Aug 26, 2015, 01:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Yes, that's a conflict of interest. Yes, feel free to investigate clinics under his purview.
     
The Final Dakar
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Aug 26, 2015, 01:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Every single story I've seen says the accusation is PP profits off the tissue, and PP has been cleared of that in all investigations into that so far.
If chongo's tidbit is accurate, I'd assume that it was Dr. Berman that was profiting.

Edit: Apologies for the quadpost
     
Chongo
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Aug 26, 2015, 01:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
If chongo's tidbit is accurate, I'd assume that it was Dr. Berman that was profiting.

Edit: Apologies for the quadpost
Quote from the video of StemExpress CEO Cate Dyer.
Dyer also agrees that payments to abortion clinics for fetal body parts should be financially beneficial to them. “Do you feel like there are clinics out there that have been burned, that feel like they’re doing all this work for research and it hasn’t been profitable for them?” she asks. “I haven’t seen that.” StemExpress publishes a flyer for Planned Parenthood clinics that promises “Financial Profits” and “fiscal rewards” for clinics that supply aborted fetal tissue. It is endorsed by Planned Parenthood Mar Monte Chief Medical Officer Dr. Dorothy Furgerson: http://www.centerformedicalprogress....ress-flyer.pdf
     
The Final Dakar
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Aug 26, 2015, 01:59 PM
 
Is stemexpress getting investigated? Quick google doesn't seem to indicate it.
     
Chongo
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Aug 26, 2015, 02:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Is stemexpress getting investigated? Quick google doesn't seem to indicate it.
That video posted yesterday. StemExpress is located in CA. To my knowledge, Gov. Brown has not called for an investigation.

You can CO as the third state. Dr. Ginde is at Rocky Mountinas PP.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Aug 26, 2015, 04:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Altering the abortion procedure to obtain tissue or organs illegal.
When I saw this video for the first time I realized Dr Nucatola was describing intact dilation and extraction, and that is illegal. The head is the last thing in the birth canal.
Dr. Nucatola describes altering the "procedure"
My understanding is that terminations after a certain time typically involve the dismemberment of the foetus for removal. As distasteful as that may be, it is not illegal.
Your quote talks about removing the head last. The law cited about terminations was that the provider is committing a crime if the head is delivered prior to termination. Nothing about your quote suggests this, in fact it directly implies that the head comes out last and clearly after termination.

What you are therefore left to complain about here is that care is being take to remove the dismembered parts intact so that medical research can benefit, or if you prefer to take a cynical line, so that the clinic can profit more from the research institution.


Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Still not seeing a law broken. Not going to give the CEO much credit for essentially getting in the middle of a transaction and driving up the cost of the research for her own profit. Nothing benefitting mankind there so go after Stemexpress all you want, but they don't appear to be doing anything new. Cartman did it on South Park FFS.


Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Another note I forgot to mention: Some article I read says laws allowing for the use of fetus body parts are only in effect in three states. I assume CA and TX are two of them (otherwise HOBOY).

That this is being used as an excuse to defund PP nationally, as well as investigate it in states where this doesn't take place reveals some bias, in my view.

Edit: Investigating it in those non-related states is a fishing expedition, as subego so aptly put for me earlier
The laws Snow-i referred to stated that sale of tissue was only illegal if it was for transplant, not for research. Thats a big difference. Even if some of it ended up being transplanted, PP have an instant getup because they have no reason to suspect the tissue would be used for anything but research and it would again be Stemexpress on the line, not PP. I believe those laws also had an interstate clause so its possible that selling tissue within the same state is legal for transplant, or it could be that selling the tissue out of state for research is prohibited, but the latter again could easily see Stemexpress prosecuted rather than PP since they have staff located everywhere they are buying.

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
If chongo's tidbit is accurate, I'd assume that it was Dr. Berman that was profiting.
Again, no laws being broken by PP. Stem express or this guy are the ones who should be investigated.


Either I'm missing all sorts of things or you guys are just throwing straw man after straw man out to justify going after PP just because you don't like them or what they do. Thats certainly what its starting to look like.

Either quote something from these videos that would give just cause for an investigation into criminal wrongdoing by PP, or adjust your target to Stemexpress. Or just call it a day on this topic.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Chongo
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Aug 26, 2015, 07:15 PM
 
“Intact Fetal Cadavers” At 20-Weeks “Just a Matter of Line Items” at Planned Parenthood TX Mega-Center: Abortion Docs Can “Make it Happen” | The Center for Medical Progress
“Where we probably have an edge over other organizations, our organization has been doing research for many many years,” explains Farrell. When researchers need a specific part from the aborted fetus, Farrell says, “We bake that into our contract, and our protocol, that we follow this, so we deviate from our standard in order to do that.”

Asked specifically if this means Planned Parenthood Gulf Coast can change abortion procedures to supply intact fetal specimens, Farrell affirms, “Some of our doctors in the past have projects and they’re collecting the specimens, so they do it in a way that they get the best specimens, so I know it can happen.“

The investigators ask Farrell how she will frame a contract in which they pay a higher price for higher quality fetal body parts, and she replies, “We can work it out in the context of–obviously, the procedure itself is more complicated,” suggesting that “without having you cover the procedural cost” and paying for the abortion, the higher specimen price could be framed as “additional time, cost, administrative burden.”

Farrell finally summarizes her affiliate’s approach to fetal tissue payments: “If we alter our process, and we are able to obtain intact fetal cadavers, we can make it part of the budget that any dissections are this, and splitting the specimens into different shipments is this. It’s all just a matter of line items.”

The sale or purchase of human fetal tissue is a federal felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison or a fine of up to $500,000 (42 U.S.C. 289g-2). Federal law also requires that no alteration in the timing or method of abortion be done for the purposes of fetal tissue collection (42 U.S.C. 289g-1).

Farrell also indicates to the investigators over lunch that the specimen sales from her department contribute significantly to Planned Parenthood Gulf Coast’s overall finances: “I think everyone realizes, especially because my department contributes so much to the bottom line of our organization here, you know we’re one of the largest affiliates, our Research Department is the largest in the United States. Larger than any the other affiliates’ combined.” In a Texas Senate hearing on July 29, former Planned Parenthood Gulf Coast clinic director Abby Johnson estimated that the affiliate had previously made up to $120,000 per month off of aborted fetal tissue.
     
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Aug 26, 2015, 07:17 PM
 
Planned Parenthood VP Says Fetuses May Come Out Intact, Agrees Payments Specific to the Specimen | The Center for Medical Progress
DENVER, July 30–New undercover footage shows Planned Parenthood of the Rocky Mountains’ Vice President and Medical Director, Dr. Savita Ginde, negotiating a fetal body parts deal, agreeing multiple times to illicit pricing per body part harvested, and suggesting ways to avoid legal consequences.

Planned Parenthood of the Rocky Mountains (PPRM) is a wealthy, multi-state Planned Parenthood affiliate that does over 10,000 abortions per year. PPRM has a contract to supply aborted fetal tissue to Colorado State University in Fort Collins.

In the video, actors posing as representatives from a human biologics company meet with Ginde at the abortion-clinic headquarters of PPRM in Denver to discuss a potential partnership to harvest fetal organs. When the actors request intact fetal specimens, Ginde reveals that in PPRM’s abortion practice, “Sometimes, if we get, if someone delivers before we get to see them for a procedure, then we are intact.”

Since PPRM does not use digoxin or other feticide in its 2nd trimester procedures, any intact deliveries before an abortion are potentially born-alive infants under federal law (1 USC 8).

“We’d have to do a little bit of training with the providers or something to make sure that they don’t crush” fetal organs during 2nd trimester abortions, says Ginde, brainstorming ways to ensure the abortion doctors at PPRM provide usable fetal organs.

When the buyers ask Ginde if “compensation could be specific to the specimen?” Ginde agrees, “Okay.” Later on in the abortion clinic’s pathological laboratory, standing over an aborted fetus, Ginde responds to the buyer’s suggestion of paying per body part harvested, rather than a standard flat fee for the entire case: “I think a per-item thing works a little better, just because we can see how much we can get out of it.”

The sale or purchase of human fetal tissue is a federal felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison or a fine of up to $500,000 (42 U.S.C. 289g-2). Federal law also requires that no alteration in the timing or method of abortion be done for the purposes of fetal tissue collection (42 U.S.C. 289g-1).

Ginde also suggests ways for Planned Parenthood to cover-up its criminal and public relations liability for the sale of aborted body parts. “Putting it under ‘research’ gives us a little bit of an overhang over the whole thing,” Ginde remarks. “If you have someone in a really anti state who’s going to be doing this for you, they’re probably going to get caught.”

Ginde implies that PPRM’s lawyer, Kevin Paul, is helping the affiliate skirt under the fetal tissue law: “He’s got it figured out that he knows that even if, because we talked to him in the beginning, you know, we were like, ‘We don’t want to get called on,’ you know, ‘selling fetal parts across states.’” The buyers ask, “And you feel confident that they’re building those layers?” to which Ginde replies, “I’m confident that our Legal will make sure we’re not put in that situation.”

As the buyers and Planned Parenthood workers identify body parts from last fetus in the path lab, a Planned Parenthood medical assistant announces: “Another boy!”
     
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Aug 26, 2015, 07:20 PM
 
Planned Parenthood’s Top Doctor, Praised by CEO, Uses Partial-Birth Abortions to Sell Baby Parts | The Center for Medical Progress
LOS ANGELES, July 14—New undercover footage shows Planned Parenthood Federation of America’s Senior Director of Medical Services, Dr. Deborah Nucatola, describing how Planned Parenthood sells the body parts of aborted fetuses, and admitting she uses partial-birth abortions to supply intact body parts.

In the video, Nucatola is at a business lunch with actors posing as buyers from a human biologics company. As head of PPFA’s Medical Services department, Nucatola has overseen medical practice at all Planned Parenthood locations since 2009. She also trains new Planned Parenthood abortion doctors and performs abortions herself at Planned Parenthood Los Angeles up to 24 weeks.

The buyers ask Nucatola, “How much of a difference can that actually make, if you know kind of what’s expected, or what we need?”

“It makes a huge difference,” Nucatola replies. “I’d say a lot of people want liver. And for that reason, most providers will do this case under ultrasound guidance, so they’ll know where they’re putting their forceps. The kind of rate-limiting step of the procedure is calvarium. Calvarium—the head—is basically the biggest part.”

Nucatola explains, “We’ve been very good at getting heart, lung, liver, because we know that, so I’m not gonna crush that part, I’m gonna basically crush below, I’m gonna crush above, and I’m gonna see if I can get it all intact.”

“And with the calvarium, in general, some people will actually try to change the presentation so that it’s not vertex,” she continues. “So if you do it starting from the breech presentation, there’s dilation that happens as the case goes on, and often, the last step, you can evacuate an intact calvarium at the end.”

Using ultrasound guidance to manipulate the fetus from vertex to breech orientation before intact extraction is the hallmark of the illegal partial-birth abortion procedure (18 U.S.C. 1531).

Nucatola also reveals that Planned Parenthood’s national office is concerned about their liability for the sale of fetal parts: “At the national office, we have a Litigation and Law Department which just really doesn’t want us to be the middle people for this issue right now,” she says. “But I will tell you that behind closed doors these conversations are happening with the affiliates.”

The sale or purchase of human fetal tissue is a federal felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison and a fine of up to $500,000 (42 U.S.C. 289g-2).

A separate clip shows Planned Parenthood President and CEO Cecile Richards praising Nucatola’s work to facilitate connections for fetal tissue collection. “Oh good,” Richards says when told about Nucatola’s support for fetal tissue collection at Planned Parenthood, “Great. She’s amazing.”
     
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Aug 26, 2015, 09:54 PM
 
So the other two of your last three posts still contain nothing new or relevant to criminal wrongdoing.
I'm guessing you're taking this one as an implication that PP sometimes has patients deliver live babies which PP then kills and simply lies that they aborted in utero so they can sell the foetus for research?

Does PP provide midwifery services and birthing facilities? A maternity ward? Birthing pools or anything of that sort?
I would be inclined to think that "sometimes when we have one deliver before the procedure is done" refers to a stillbirth. You'd have to be really stupid to tell a stranger that you killed live babies so you could sell them for research.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Aug 26, 2015, 10:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
So the other two of your last three posts still contain nothing new or relevant to criminal wrongdoing.
I'm guessing you're taking this one as an implication that PP sometimes has patients deliver live babies which PP then kills and simply lies that they aborted in utero so they can sell the foetus for research?

Does PP provide midwifery services and birthing facilities? A maternity ward? Birthing pools or anything of that sort?
I would be inclined to think that "sometimes when we have one deliver before the procedure is done" refers to a stillbirth. You'd have to be really stupid to tell a stranger that you killed live babies so you could sell them for research.
Planned Parenthood is in the abortion biz, not delivering babies. No midwives, birthing centers, or birthing pools.


Um, all the babies are alive prior to the abortion. It's the second trimester abortions that makes them the most money.


I don't know about the UK, performing intact diatation and extraction abortions(AKA partial birth) is illegal in the US. Taking money in excess of costs is illegal. Altering the abortiion to obtain tissue is illegal. The PP officials in the videos admit they are doing all three.
     
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Aug 27, 2015, 05:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Planned Parenthood is in the abortion biz, not delivering babies. No midwives, birthing centers, or birthing pools.
Thats what I figured. Thank you for clarifying.


Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Um, all the babies are alive prior to the abortion. It's the second trimester abortions that makes them the most money.
Assuming they pay by mass that makes sense. If a baby has been delivered and is alive, thats not an abortion thats a murder. Again, I'm not sure any medical professional would be dumb enough to imply that to someone they don't know very well. I suppose the patient is also assumed to be complicit and to want PP to murder her delivered child?


Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
I don't know about the UK, performing intact dilatation and extraction abortions(AKA partial birth) is illegal in the US. Taking money in excess of costs is illegal. Altering the abortiion to obtain tissue is illegal. The PP officials in the videos admit they are doing all three.
Partial birth abortions as described by the law previously cited which very clearly describes what constitutes one. One of your quotes discusses the removal of parts with the parts intact, not the whole foetus. Perhaps that is true of the cases delivered without procedure, or perhaps some of those were chemically or hormonally performed and it was only the extraction procedure that was skipped because the foetus was delivered still.
I don't pretend to know but it seems there is plenty of room to explain these quotes without concluding that laws were broken. Even for a layman. Its not a smoking gun and I think you'd probably need one to justify the cost of the massive investigation that you are calling for which at best might lead to the prosecution of a minority of individuals.

Since the money is not being taken from the patient I don't think you have anything there either.
I don't think taking extra care to remove parts without crushing them counts as altering the procedure.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Paco500
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Aug 27, 2015, 06:28 PM
 
"Unedited" videos? This is just an allegation at this point. Interested to see how this plays out.
     
subego
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Aug 28, 2015, 09:29 AM
 
Someone is going to have to explain this "editing" to me or I'm going to start using this as my prime example of how you don't trust the media.

What's being alleged is PP has ethically abdicated on painlessly euthanizing fetuses so the tissue can be used for research.

If there's video of them sorting through a fetus which has developed discrete organs, the rest of the video is irrelevant.
     
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Aug 28, 2015, 11:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Someone is going to have to explain this "editing" to me or I'm going to start using this as my prime example of how you don't trust the media.

What's being alleged is PP has ethically abdicated on painlessly euthanizing fetuses so the tissue can be used for research.

If there's video of them sorting through a fetus which has developed discrete organs, the rest of the video is irrelevant.
Yes, there is. You can scan through the videos and see. You can google for screen grabs as well.
http://liveactionnews.org/wp-content.../07/PP-CMP.jpg
     
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Aug 28, 2015, 01:52 PM
 
Hypothetical question here: Let's say the final outcome of investigations is this – All investigated PP in non-donative states conform to regulations, and in the three states that allow fetus donation for research there are irregularities and violations that are 'troubling' about the donating process, but otherwise they too are operating as they should. Would removing PPs ability to donate fetuses in those states be a sufficient resolution (barring any fines and legal implications which would be handled separately) so this wouldn't happen again?
     
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Aug 28, 2015, 04:15 PM
 
There's at least four more videos to be released, and it sounds like at least one involving the National Abortion Federation convention.
     
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Aug 28, 2015, 11:35 PM
 
Why is the video release being staggered?
Simple media hype to prolong the steady stream of hits?
Or maybe they are still chopping them?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
The Final Dakar
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Aug 31, 2015, 09:33 AM
 
To keep PP in the news as long as possible.
     
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Aug 31, 2015, 10:22 AM
 
and to catch PP in any possible "gotchas!", keeping their legal eagles and supporters off balance. It's safe to assume they're holding something back, but there's no telling what it is.
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Aug 31, 2015, 03:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
and to catch PP in any possible "gotchas!", keeping their legal eagles and supporters off balance. It's safe to assume they're holding something back, but there's no telling what it is.
Dissecting an "intact case" or something incriminating at the National Abortion Federation Conference.
     
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Aug 31, 2015, 04:31 PM
 
I'm guessing I didn't make a good hypothetical.
     
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Aug 31, 2015, 05:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Dissecting an "intact case" or something incriminating at the National Abortion Federation Conference.
You know that has to be one hell of a convention to attend. Right? Good times, good times...
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Aug 31, 2015, 09:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
You know that has to be one hell of a convention to attend. Right? Good times, good times...
They even have booths just like CES!
     
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Aug 31, 2015, 09:14 PM
 
"It's the Vaginal Vacuum 10,000! It cuts, it slices, it makes juvenile fries!"



Okay, that probably went too far...
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Sep 1, 2015, 08:00 AM
 
There is a new highlight video and accompanying full footage. this morning. It's from the convention. My guess is CMP has footage from one of the clinics of an intact baby dissection.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXS...z1CZj1u9I8Wbcg
     
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Sep 11, 2015, 11:39 AM
 
Shoe on the other foot? It will be interesting to see what comes of this refusal to print a flyer. WWTACLUD?

Office Depot Accused Of Discrimination | The Daily Caller

Office Depot may face a lawsuit after refusing to print flyers that criticize Planned Parenthood, saying the flyers “persecute” people who believe in abortion rights.

Maria Goldstein, 42, of Illinois asked Office Depot on Aug. 20 to print 500 anti-Planned Parenthood fliers, but the employee refused. The flier had facts about Planned Parenthood from the organization’s annual report as well as a prayer calling for the “conversion” and “enlightenment” of those who support the organization.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 11, 2015, 11:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Shoe on the other foot?
Versus what?
     
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Sep 11, 2015, 12:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Shoe on the other foot? It will be interesting to see what comes of this refusal to print a flyer. WWTACLUD?

Office Depot Accused Of Discrimination | The Daily Caller
You can discriminate on religion, just not on gender, race, or ethnicity.
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Sep 11, 2015, 12:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Versus what?
You're sooo cute when you play coy.
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The Final Dakar
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Sep 11, 2015, 12:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
You're sooo cute when you play coy.
With regards to Chongo, I like for him to make his thoughts clear, lest they suddenly change mid-discussion.
     
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Sep 11, 2015, 12:38 PM
 
You seem to have forgot all the businesses that have been taken to court for not kowtowing to those waving the rainbow flag.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 11, 2015, 12:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
You seem to have forgot all the businesses that have been taken to court for not kowtowing to those waving the rainbow flag.
I don't think that's a valid legal charge. Must have been some other reason.
     
subego
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Sep 11, 2015, 01:55 PM
 
I feel like that could go in the "progressives" thread.
     
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Sep 15, 2015, 09:19 AM
 
Perhaps they should change the name to "Gonads R Us"
     
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Sep 19, 2015, 09:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
"If you don't want your tax dollars to help the poor stop saying you want a country based on Christian values, because you don't".
It doesn't seem very "Christian" to, at the point of a gun, confiscate the property of others and to spend it for purposes you see fit. I would generally associate that socioeconomic model to the mostly secular(and violently anti-religious) communist movements throughout recent history. (And we can all witness how well they turned out.) If, however, one were to donate a portion of their own earning and/or wealth to the "poor" voluntarily, that would seem "Christian" to me.
( Last edited by Hawkeye_a; Sep 19, 2015 at 09:57 AM. )
     
 
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