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Political empathy
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besson3c
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Nov 23, 2016, 07:20 PM
 
I had a little catharsis.

I'm visiting the US now, and I've been talking to a number of middle aged women in particular that have been really sad about Trump's election. Sad enough that they were brought to tears. As I got to talking to them it got be thinking that this country needs a lot of empathy right now.

The main reason this has taken such a toll on these people goes way beyond politics and policy. It has to do with their life experiences and experiences of those close to them. Many of these woman are old enough to remember not being able to get themselves a credit card, for example. This doesn't seem too dissimilar than African Americans old enough to remember the days of obvious segregation.

Instead of debating people whether this discrimination still exists today, maybe it's better to acknowledge and validate their feelings? It doesn't necessarily matter what the "facts" are, they feel a certain way and feelings are neither right nor wrong (I'm learning this for myself fully, so this is new understanding to me personally). What harm is there in saying that it must be hard being a woman, or African American, or gay, or Muslim, or whatever? You'll never know what it is like if you aren't one of these things, so why not do something very meaningful and validate what they are feeling?

You can even say the same is true of the alt-right and the desperation felt in their feeling marginalized. I'm obviously less empathetic to a lot of these feelings, but the point is, maybe the best thing for this country right now is to address the empathy deficit?

We are all processing the results of the election differently, but once it has fully been processed, these feelings don't go away. If you were feeling that it is tough to be black before the election, it would have continued to be tough to be black regardless of who was elected. Maybe we also are quick to finding solutions and assigning blame, and we are skipping the all-important step of acknowledging that sexism, racism, homophobia, etc. is still a feeling that people feel?

Sorry for this post being touchy feely, but hey, it's Thanksgiving, and... I love you Chongo, BadKosh, and CTP. It must be hard being a white Christian male
     
subego
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Nov 24, 2016, 12:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I'm obviously less empathetic to a lot of these feelings
Lead by example.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Nov 24, 2016, 12:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Lead by example.
Is this one of those "you have to be perfect for your points to be valid" arguments?
     
subego
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Nov 24, 2016, 01:41 PM
 
Not in the slightest.

Where does that impression come from?
     
besson3c  (op)
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Nov 24, 2016, 01:43 PM
 
Your response was about me.
     
subego
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Nov 24, 2016, 02:36 PM
 
I can see how me doing that could be irritating, and for that I apologize.

I'm not trying to invalidate your point. It's the exact opposite. I think the notion one should have empathy for others, even if there's tension between that and being "right", is literally the most important key to successful interpersonal interaction.

You deserve credit I did not give, both for having the realization, and seeing the value in discussing it. For this I apologize as well.


My point is if you see in yourself how this process is difficult, have (ahem) empathy for how others may find it equally difficult.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Nov 24, 2016, 03:11 PM
 
It's definitely difficult, but my thesis was that it might be the best thing to inject this country with right now, especially if you agree that my experiences are a valid representative sample.
     
subego
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Nov 24, 2016, 04:24 PM
 
It was the best thing previous to the election, and will remain the best thing long after.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Nov 25, 2016, 04:13 AM
 
Its really difficult to empathise with people who voted to roll back the rights of their fellow citizens in the (pretty insubstantial) hope they would make a few extra bucks. Even more so when they are constantly asking for empathy and understanding while offering little or none themselves.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
BadKosh
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Nov 25, 2016, 06:45 AM
 
Give examples of this perceived Rolling back the rights of others BS.
     
subego
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Nov 25, 2016, 09:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Its really difficult to empathise with people who voted to roll back the rights of their fellow citizens
Unless they had been 2nd Amendment rights.

Of course the freedom to have guns has consequences. Because of these consequences I am sympathetic to the argument the freedom isn't worth the cost.

Abortion has consequences. Because of these consequences I am sympathetic to the argument the freedom isn't worth the cost.
     
subego
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Nov 25, 2016, 09:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Give examples of this perceived Rolling back the rights of others BS.
Trump opined his SCOTUS pics would flip Roe v. Wade.
     
BadKosh
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Nov 25, 2016, 09:11 AM
 
Hasn't happened yet. Strawman.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Nov 25, 2016, 09:14 AM
 
Didn't they just pass a discrimination bill the other day?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Nov 25, 2016, 09:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Hasn't happened yet. Strawman.
Huh?

Nothing has happened yet because he isn't President yet.

He declared his intent. People are behaving as if that's what he did.
     
subego
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Nov 25, 2016, 10:04 AM
 
Next time someone complains about how a Democrat is going to take away guns, I'll go "hasn't happened yet. Strawman."

I'm sure that will fly.
     
BadKosh
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Nov 25, 2016, 10:18 AM
 
Hillary said exactly that. She lost. Connection?
     
BadKosh
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Nov 25, 2016, 10:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Didn't they just pass a discrimination bill the other day?
Congress was on vacation.
     
subego
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Nov 25, 2016, 10:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Hillary said exactly that. She lost. Connection?
Trump said he'd stack the court in a manner likely to flip Roe v. Wade.

He won.

Connection?
     
Chongo
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Nov 25, 2016, 10:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Next time someone complains about how a Democrat is going to take away guns, I'll go "hasn't happened yet. Strawman."

I'm sure that will fly.
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Hillary said exactly that. She lost. Connection?
Hillary also said she would appoint judges that would overturn Citizens United.
     
subego
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Nov 25, 2016, 11:15 AM
 
Which by the previous argument is a strawman because she didn't actually do it.
     
BadKosh
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Nov 25, 2016, 11:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Trump said he'd stack the court in a manner likely to flip Roe v. Wade.

He won.

Connection?
elections have consequences. The people have spoken.

Before the vote: "But will Trump accept the results?"
After the vote: "We will not accept the results!"

Liberals are hypocrites.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Nov 25, 2016, 11:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
elections have consequences. The people have spoken.
Great, so when do we get to appoint Merrick Garland to the Supreme Court?

Sorry, you don't get to say that as one of the most right-wing partisans here after all of the obstruction that has occurred.
     
subego
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Nov 25, 2016, 11:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
elections have consequences. The people have spoken.

Before the vote: "But will Trump accept the results?"
After the vote: "We will not accept the results!"

Liberals are hypocrites.
And the claim is one of the consequences will be the appointment of judges inclined to overturn Roe v. Wade.

This is based on a strawman how?

Ironic behavior from Democrats about an unrelated issue have no bearing on this question.
( Last edited by subego; Nov 25, 2016 at 12:01 PM. )
     
subego
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Nov 25, 2016, 11:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Great, so when do we get to appoint Merrick Garland to the Supreme Court?

Sorry, you don't get to say that as one of the most right-wing partisans here after all of the obstruction that has occurred.
Sure he does. The President is not the sole representative of the people. If obstruction of this nature is unacceptable, the people speak through election of different senators.

Well... guess what?
     
besson3c  (op)
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Nov 25, 2016, 12:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Sure he does. The President is not the sole representative of the people. If obstruction of this nature is unacceptable, the people speak through election of different senators.

Well... guess what?
Do you really think that our system was designed such that meaningful legislation is only passed when a party has control of all branches of government and there is unanimous voting along party lines?

Our system was designed for gridlock, but not to the point where you can basically shut down government for the years where there is split control. It was designed for gridlock along ideological lines.

"The people have spoken" is not a valid statement any longer, or else we'd have a single payer system, Gitmo shut down, and everything else on Obama's first term agenda accomplished. For Pete's sake, there were people that wouldn't even acknowledge that Obama was a legit president, and now many of the same people are playing this card?

Doesn't fly with me.
( Last edited by besson3c; Nov 25, 2016 at 12:50 PM. )
     
subego
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Nov 25, 2016, 12:59 PM
 
I'm less interested in whether any given individual has a "right" to make a statement than whether the statement is accurate.

The people were given the opportunity to speak with regards to the Garland nomination, and speak they did.
     
BadKosh
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Nov 25, 2016, 01:03 PM
 
The people HAVE spoken. FACT.

Obama had 2 years with full Democrat control, AND THEY PISSED IT AWAY WITH THE HORRID OBAMACARE!!! The people got what they thought they wanted, but the Democrats were Grubered. So the people got suckered by the Democrats who got suckered by Gruber. Who are the idiots here? Democrats. After 2 years, people started getting wise the Obama and the Democrats and took some of their power away. This was repeated in 2012, and again in 2014, and again in 2016. People realized the MSM was an accomplice in the Democrat BS, which really made folks pissed at Democrats, news pundits and Hillary. now the Democrats and MSM are crashing and burning because nobody is falling for their BS anymore.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Nov 25, 2016, 01:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm less interested in whether any given individual has a "right" to make a statement than whether the statement is accurate.

The people were given the opportunity to speak with regards to the Garland nomination, and speak they did.

How did the people speak in regards to the Garland nomination? I'm not following you.
     
subego
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Nov 25, 2016, 01:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Doesn't fly with me.
Sometimes I wish someone would start a thread about how this isn't always the most important thing.
     
subego
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Nov 25, 2016, 01:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
How did the people speak in regards to the Garland nomination? I'm not following you.
If Hillary had won and the Senate flipped, as most were predicting up until the last seconds, Garland would have been confirmed in a hot minute.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Nov 25, 2016, 01:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
If Hillary had won and the Senate flipped, as most were predicting up until the last seconds, Garland would have been confirmed in a hot minute.
Yes, which is the problem in reverse.

We have a representative democracy where our representatives aren't necessarily supposed to do what the majority of the population wants (that is mob rule), they were elected to use their best judgment and their best objective reasoning.

However, this doesn't happen. It can't happen without even giving the guy a hearing. Instead, we have mob rule in the form of political parties rather than those we've elected using their best judgment on what is best for the country based on their own objective reasoning.

This happens on both sides, I'm just saying that "the people have spoken" is a completely meaningless statement.
     
BadKosh
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Nov 25, 2016, 01:41 PM
 
No.. It shows that people are generally poor judges of others character and abilities. We will sink or swim depending on the intelligence of the populace. The MSM and public schools are too busy indoctrinating little minds to be liberal stooges who are afraid of words! Both are filled with liberals without morals or character. They have done the most damage.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Nov 25, 2016, 02:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
No.. It shows that people are generally poor judges of others character and abilities. We will sink or swim depending on the intelligence of the populace. The MSM and public schools are too busy indoctrinating little minds to be liberal stooges who are afraid of words! Both are filled with liberals without morals or character. They have done the most damage.
Weren't you the guy spoon feeding fluff to Chongo during this entire election cycle?

I agree that we will sink or swim depending on the intelligence of the population. Why not inject some intellect yourself, given how strongly you feel about this?

ebuddy was your best role model, by far.
     
Chongo
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Nov 25, 2016, 04:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Weren't you the guy spoon feeding fluff to Chongo during this entire election cycle?

I agree that we will sink or swim depending on the intelligence of the population. Why not inject some intellect yourself, given how strongly you feel about this?

ebuddy was your best role model, by far.


I can find fluff on my own. That's what the Drudge Report is for. (and The People's Cube - Political Humor & Satire )
     
OAW
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Nov 25, 2016, 06:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
elections have consequences. The people have spoken.
The people sure have spoken. To the tune of 2 MILLION and counting more people voted for Clinton to be POTUS than Trump.

OAW
     
Chongo
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Nov 25, 2016, 09:17 PM
 
Votes of the dead and unqualified
     
Waragainstsleep
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Nov 25, 2016, 10:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Unless they had been 2nd Amendment rights.

Of course the freedom to have guns has consequences. Because of these consequences I am sympathetic to the argument the freedom isn't worth the cost.

Abortion has consequences. Because of these consequences I am sympathetic to the argument the freedom isn't worth the cost.
2A is a non-discriminatory right that everyone either has or doesn't. unless they exempt themselves by choosing criminality or violence, or through psychological grounds which is perfectly reasonable to everyone except those who are exempt on psychological grounds.

At any rate, totally different beast. We are talking about healthy, law-abiding people being treated as less because of who are or who they love or how they want to control their life.

People who have a problem with abortion should offer to take the unwanted kids and raise them themselves if it means that much. If you aren't willing to take one, then you shouldn't be so quick to criticise someone else for not wanting to raise one either.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Waragainstsleep
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Nov 25, 2016, 10:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Votes of the dead and unqualified
Now thats fluffy.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Waragainstsleep
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Nov 25, 2016, 10:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
No.. It shows that people are generally poor judges of others character and abilities. We will sink or swim depending on the intelligence of the populace. The MSM and public schools are too busy indoctrinating little minds to be liberal stooges who are afraid of words! Both are filled with liberals without morals or character. They have done the most damage.

Better to be afraid of words than facts.


We'll see how good the peoples judgement of character is soon enough I'm sure.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Nov 25, 2016, 10:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Yes, which is the problem in reverse.

We have a representative democracy where our representatives aren't necessarily supposed to do what the majority of the population wants (that is mob rule), they were elected to use their best judgment and their best objective reasoning.

However, this doesn't happen. It can't happen without even giving the guy a hearing. Instead, we have mob rule in the form of political parties rather than those we've elected using their best judgment on what is best for the country based on their own objective reasoning.

This happens on both sides, I'm just saying that "the people have spoken" is a completely meaningless statement.
What would be point of a hearing other than to stage a dog and pony show?

Their best judgement is a far more conservative justice would be better suited. They don't need to hold a hearing to figure this out.

I repeat my original assertion. The President is not the sole voice of the people in government. The people had the opportunity to repudiate the judgment of the Senate, as well as elect a President who would take up the reins of our current one. They chose to do neither, and have thus quite clearly spoken on the matter.
     
BadKosh
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Nov 26, 2016, 07:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Why not inject some intellect yourself, given how strongly you feel about this?
Perhaps you don't get it? You don't see the damage the MSM and union run schools have done to our culture?
     
BadKosh
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Nov 26, 2016, 08:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
2A is a non-discriminatory right that everyone either has or doesn't. unless they exempt themselves by choosing criminality or violence, or through psychological grounds which is perfectly reasonable to everyone except those who are exempt on psychological grounds.

At any rate, totally different beast. We are talking about healthy, law-abiding people being treated as less because of who are or who they love or how they want to control their life.

People who have a problem with abortion should offer to take the unwanted kids and raise them themselves if it means that much. If you aren't willing to take one, then you shouldn't be so quick to criticise someone else for not wanting to raise one either.
You seem to lack morals if you think abortion is a good or humane solution to the problem. What kind of person would kill what might have been their children?
     
BadKosh
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Nov 26, 2016, 08:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Better to be afraid of words than facts.


We'll see how good the peoples judgement of character is soon enough I'm sure.
Being afraid of words is a sign of immaturity. I can see your priorities are upside down.
     
el chupacabra
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Nov 26, 2016, 02:16 PM
 
I think it's the other way around. As a nation we have become too empathetic. Too nice, & pandering to people's emotions. Efficiencies are taking a back seat to protecting emotions, egos and self-esteem. Validating people's feelings is what's made a nation of productive people into a culture of crybabies. If someone is crying due to a president they didnt like, it demonstrates a serious psychological dysfunction and immaturity. Welcome to the rise of everyone and their dog needing an emotional-service-pet just to get through the day - an age where people struggle to form meaningful connections with real humans so they turn to animals. Conditions that happen when people weren't spanked enough; didnt work hard enough to learn the kind of maturity that only comes from failure even after doing everything you thought was right; or didnt learn problem solving skills due to not being in enough fights as kids. This is what happens when you're too sensitive to people's feelings, they remain perpetual incompetent children forever. We're doing everything we can to create a fake sterile bubble girl society at the psychological level.

As for true conservatives, they dont need empathy. They mostly just need to be left alone. They need the parasites of society to stop trying to use government to steal their stuff or take their freedom. One half of society claims their policy & lifestyle is superior, yet seems to always need what the productive class has due to their lifestyle continually failing them, despite their lifestyle being self proclaimed so much more superior & intelligent.

Crying over a president. What kind of effect is Trump, 1 guy, going to have on each individual's life unless your aready highly dependent on government to begin with?
the largest problem for Americans today is they eat too much food and dont have enough work to do to keep their heart healthy
     
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Nov 26, 2016, 03:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Being afraid of words is a sign of immaturity. I can see your priorities are upside down.
Being afraid of facts, and failing to realise that words have the power to change minds is a sign of being stupid.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Nov 26, 2016, 03:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
You seem to lack morals if you think abortion is a good or humane solution to the problem. What kind of person would kill what might have been their children?
Your wife's lunch might be your future children. Do you propose arresting her every time she drops a deuce instead of another kid?

Early term abortions are not immoral. Forcing women to carry, bear and raise kids they don't want is.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Nov 26, 2016, 03:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
I think it's the other way around. As a nation we have become too empathetic. Too nice, & pandering to people's emotions. Efficiencies are taking a back seat to protecting emotions, egos and self-esteem. Validating people's feelings is what's made a nation of productive people into a culture of crybabies. If someone is crying due to a president they didnt like, it demonstrates a serious psychological dysfunction and immaturity. Welcome to the rise of everyone and their dog needing an emotional-service-pet just to get through the day - an age where people struggle to form meaningful connections with real humans so they turn to animals. Conditions that happen when people weren't spanked enough; didnt work hard enough to learn the kind of maturity that only comes from failure even after doing everything you thought was right; or didnt learn problem solving skills due to not being in enough fights as kids. This is what happens when you're too sensitive to people's feelings, they remain perpetual incompetent children forever. We're doing everything we can to create a fake sterile bubble girl society at the psychological level.

As for true conservatives, they dont need empathy. They mostly just need to be left alone. They need the parasites of society to stop trying to use government to steal their stuff or take their freedom. One half of society claims their policy & lifestyle is superior, yet seems to always need what the productive class has due to their lifestyle continually failing them, despite their lifestyle being self proclaimed so much more superior & intelligent.

Crying over a president. What kind of effect is Trump, 1 guy, going to have on each individual's life unless your aready highly dependent on government to begin with?
What I am highly dependent upon government for is them upholding the principle of not intruding on how I live my life. If Trump gets more than one Supreme Court appointment, Federally protected civil liberties are in danger of reverting to state control.

Depending upon the state, this could quite easily have a significant effect upon me as an individual.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Nov 26, 2016, 04:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
I think it's the other way around. As a nation we have become too empathetic. Too nice, & pandering to people's emotions. Efficiencies are taking a back seat to protecting emotions, egos and self-esteem. Validating people's feelings is what's made a nation of productive people into a culture of crybabies. If someone is crying due to a president they didnt like, it demonstrates a serious psychological dysfunction and immaturity. Welcome to the rise of everyone and their dog needing an emotional-service-pet just to get through the day - an age where people struggle to form meaningful connections with real humans so they turn to animals. Conditions that happen when people weren't spanked enough; didnt work hard enough to learn the kind of maturity that only comes from failure even after doing everything you thought was right; or didnt learn problem solving skills due to not being in enough fights as kids. This is what happens when you're too sensitive to people's feelings, they remain perpetual incompetent children forever. We're doing everything we can to create a fake sterile bubble girl society at the psychological level.

As for true conservatives, they dont need empathy. They mostly just need to be left alone. They need the parasites of society to stop trying to use government to steal their stuff or take their freedom. One half of society claims their policy & lifestyle is superior, yet seems to always need what the productive class has due to their lifestyle continually failing them, despite their lifestyle being self proclaimed so much more superior & intelligent.

Crying over a president. What kind of effect is Trump, 1 guy, going to have on each individual's life unless your aready highly dependent on government to begin with?
How on Earth can anybody think that a country where black people are routinely shot by the police, our politicians support cruel gay conversion therapy, women still don't have access to many of the same opportunities, and the amount of hate crimes towards Muslims and all sorts of other populations is as high as it is that we have too much empathy?

This notion is incredibly depressing.
     
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Nov 26, 2016, 04:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
I think it's the other way around. As a nation we have become too empathetic. Too nice, & pandering to people's emotions. Efficiencies are taking a back seat to protecting emotions, egos and self-esteem. Validating people's feelings is what's made a nation of productive people into a culture of crybabies. If someone is crying due to a president they didnt like, it demonstrates a serious psychological dysfunction and immaturity. Welcome to the rise of everyone and their dog needing an emotional-service-pet just to get through the day - an age where people struggle to form meaningful connections with real humans so they turn to animals. Conditions that happen when people weren't spanked enough; didnt work hard enough to learn the kind of maturity that only comes from failure even after doing everything you thought was right; or didnt learn problem solving skills due to not being in enough fights as kids. This is what happens when you're too sensitive to people's feelings, they remain perpetual incompetent children forever. We're doing everything we can to create a fake sterile bubble girl society at the psychological level.

As for true conservatives, they dont need empathy. They mostly just need to be left alone. They need the parasites of society to stop trying to use government to steal their stuff or take their freedom. One half of society claims their policy & lifestyle is superior, yet seems to always need what the productive class has due to their lifestyle continually failing them, despite their lifestyle being self proclaimed so much more superior & intelligent.

Crying over a president. What kind of effect is Trump, 1 guy, going to have on each individual's life unless your aready highly dependent on government to begin with?

I'm sorry but this post is dreadful.

Firstly, conservatives do not have a monopoly on being productive. Nor re they all rough, tough cowboys. Its pretty clear a lot of them have a whole raft of their own issues around their feelings. Leaving your stereotypical conservatives alone typically means leaving them to oppress, exploit and mistreat anyone they deem opposable, exploitable or different from themselves. So lets abandon the stereotypes shall we because your heroic conservatives do not come out looking good under such conditions.

You're going too far past the happy medium which is exactly what the people you are moaning about have done. Not every needs an emotional support animal, but some people find them very helpful. Just because you don't doesn't make you a well adjusted tough guy and them a pussy. It might just as easily make them honest and you a liar in line for an eventual breakdown.
I don't think liberals claim their lifestyle to be superior at all, just their attitude to the lifestyles of others. By which I mean people with different sexual preferences, social groups, etc, not people who choose to sponge off the state rather than work. It was my understanding that there are plenty of conservatives who do that in the white trash trailer parks, but perhaps you believe they are all good honest folk who just can't find a job? That would be selectively charitable of you.


As for the effect Trump might have as one guy? What if he starts a war through his stubbornness or ignorance? I'd love for you to dismiss that as unthinkable, because as a stereotypical tough guy conservative, you must surely believe you might realistically one day need your guns to overthrow a tyrannical government (if not repel an invading force) no?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
 
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