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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Can we agree that attempts to repeal Obamacare under Obama were a waste of time?

Can we agree that attempts to repeal Obamacare under Obama were a waste of time?
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besson3c
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Jul 30, 2017, 07:03 PM
 
Remember the 23094823094823 repeal attempts? Anybody want to make an argument that these weren't a complete and utter waste of time?
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jul 31, 2017, 06:51 AM
 
Surely attempting to repeal it under anyone is a waste of time without a replacement?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Chongo
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Jul 31, 2017, 07:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Remember the 23094823094823 repeal attempts? Anybody want to make an argument that these weren't a complete and utter waste of time?
Duh. Sending any legislation to Obama's desk that he opposed without enough support to override his veto was a waste of time.
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Surely attempting to repeal it under anyone is a waste of time without a replacement?
No, becuase Trump has said he has his pen ready to sign a repeal bill.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jul 31, 2017, 09:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Duh. Sending any legislation to Obama's desk that he opposed without enough support to override his veto was a waste of time.
Maybe the Republicans should have spent some time coming up with a meaty replacement bill they could agree upon? I don't mean a skinny bill, or one with gaping holes in it that result in millions being uninsured that surely could have been projected as being non-politically popular, I mean something viable?

If they had done that they would have created a political dynasty, as clearly the Democrats are not organized enough to do the same with the same powerful messaging.
     
Doc HM
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Jul 31, 2017, 06:34 PM
 
I feel one of the main reasons Trump has been so motivated to repeal the ACA is the media naming of it as Obamacare. I feel his ego must grate every time it is mentioned.
This space for Hire! Reasonable rates. Reach an audience of literally dozens!
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jul 31, 2017, 09:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
No, becuase Trump has said he has his pen ready to sign a repeal bill.
That doesn't mean it wouldn't still be a colossal waste of time.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Chongo
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Aug 1, 2017, 01:36 AM
 
You think Trump will veto repeal?
     
Waragainstsleep
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Aug 1, 2017, 05:33 AM
 
No I just think tearing down a critical system like healthcare without a replacement is criminally irresponsible. Why can't they come up with a decent replacement first? That was part of the campaign promise too, no?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Chongo
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Aug 1, 2017, 08:34 AM
 
Has the definition of healthcare been redefined to mean forcing purchase of insurance plans that can't be used (or wanted in the first place) because doctors and hospitals won't accept those plans?
     
besson3c  (op)
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Aug 1, 2017, 08:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Has the definition of healthcare been redefined to mean forcing purchase of insurance plans that can't be used (or wanted in the first place) because doctors and hospitals won't accept those plans?
Could you please stick to the topic?
     
Chongo
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Aug 1, 2017, 08:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Could you please stick to the topic?
This thread is is done. Your question was answered. It was a waste of time. Obama vetoed every repeal bill.

Mods, please lock this thread.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Aug 1, 2017, 09:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
This thread is is done. Your question was answered. It was a waste of time. Obama vetoed every repeal bill.

Mods, please lock this thread.

Is trying to sneak a healthcare bill through that results in fewer people being covered a Christian thing to do? When does your Christian sense of morality take precedence over political point scoring?
     
Chongo
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Aug 1, 2017, 09:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Is trying to sneak a healthcare bill through that results in fewer people being covered a Christian thing to do? When does your Christian sense of morality take precedence over political point scoring?
Awwwwww. Nice try.
Those who were truly in need of care were taken care of before ObamaCare and they will be after. The Church has done so since she built the first hospitals. My sister is forced by ObamaCare to pay for a plan that that is almost as much has her rent was before she moved in with my mother.

You ignore the fact that many of the so called uninsured were that way by choice. I didn't use my Cigna plan for over twenty years.
Your question was answered.
     
BadKosh
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Aug 1, 2017, 10:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Is trying to sneak a healthcare bill through that results in fewer people being covered a Christian thing to do? When does your Christian sense of morality take precedence over political point scoring?
Since when did you get religion? Oh, its a troll thing.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Aug 1, 2017, 10:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Awwwwww. Nice try.
Those who were truly in need of care were taken care of before ObamaCare and they will be after. The Church has done so since she built the first hospitals. My sister is forced by ObamaCare to pay for a plan that that is almost as much has her rent was before she moved in with my mother.
So the solution to people without insurance that need and want it but can't afford it otherwise (without subsidies) is to find a church and get them to take care of the individual?
     
Laminar
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Aug 1, 2017, 11:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Those who were truly in need of care were taken care of before ObamaCare and they will be after.
Really?

These people?

How about these people?

The study, conducted at Harvard Medical School and Cambridge Health Alliance, found that uninsured, working-age Americans have a 40 percent higher risk of death than their privately insured counterparts
Fact Check on the above article

Politifact on Raul Labrador's claim that "Nobody dies because they don’t have access to health care."

Where is the church for the thousands of people dying due to lack of health care?
     
Chongo
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Aug 1, 2017, 11:35 AM
 
The question was answered.
     
el chupacabra
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Aug 1, 2017, 11:47 AM
 
The more uninsured people we have the better. We need a plan that dismantles the death grip hold insurance has over the medical industry & pricing. People need to cut out the middle man (insurance) and pay medical bills directly, out of pocket, roll-over flexible spending accounts, or loans. This is the only way to bring back capitalism to the medical industry. Bringing back capitalism is the only way healthcare costs will be driven down by natural market forces.

People can take the money they would've spent on smart phones, TVs, cable, music, vacations, fine dining, cigarettes, alcohol, iPad, McMansions, new cars, new clothes, coffee, spinners, and other useless toys, and be forced to put it in a health flexible spending account, since healthcare is apparently a 'need' and the other things are not. Jesus would like this... He prefers personal responsibility and not forcing responsible people to pay for ungrateful irresponsible people under the concept of false charity through bullshit government solutions for people who pretend to be poor.
     
The Final Dakar
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Aug 1, 2017, 12:09 PM
 
Counterpoint: We had an millions uninsured for decades and nothing happened.

Counterpoint two: A smartphone won't cover jack of real healthcare costs. It's a red herring.
     
andi*pandi
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Aug 1, 2017, 12:20 PM
 
All the uninsured flood the ER with stuff that should be taken care of at doctor visits, or prevented with doctor visits.

Hospitals don't turn away people at the ER, because compassion/credit cards, but the costs of these people are passed on.
     
Laminar
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Aug 1, 2017, 12:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
The question was answered.
Don't worry, The Church will surely take care of closing the thread.
     
The Final Dakar
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Aug 1, 2017, 12:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Lies you tell yourself do you can sleep at night.
     
el chupacabra
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Aug 1, 2017, 01:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Counterpoint: We had an millions uninsured for decades and nothing happened.
When looking back, healthcare was cheaper during these times than it is now. However, in order to break the cartel, we need much more uninsured than we ever had going forward. It needs to be law that medical prices for all services & procedures are FIXED for ALL parties, and listed in a book or website for each medical facility; just like with every other business. That way people can price hunt/compare and beautiful capitalism can take place. These price lists already exist, they are just kept hidden from you unless you ask the billing department or insurance company. In most cases if you go in for a surgery or procedure the hospital will bill it wrong, as a higher cost procedure to the insurance. They can easily get away with this because the insurance company doesnt actually know exactly what procedure(s) you had done, only you do, except we are a culture now who doesnt care to even check much less understand bill codes or the charges because a middle man is paying for it... So insurance just passes on the cost to everyone next year with rate hikes.

Other than the way you are being billed by insurance, the current system is no different than having a loan that you never pay off

Counterpoint two: A smartphone won't cover jack of real healthcare costs. It's a red herring.
A smart phone and it's plan; most definitely can pay a moderate monthly medical payment, sometimes all on its own since these plans can be hundreds of dollars/ month. Either way it's not about the smart phone alone, thats a red herring, it's about the cumulative costs of all the luxuries we have plenty of money for while not having money for healthcare, only because healthcare is boring and our 'toys' are fun. We are a spoiled society

andi*pandi
All the uninsured flood the ER with stuff that should be taken care of at doctor visits, or prevented with doctor visits.
Hospitals don't turn away people at the ER, because compassion/credit cards, but the costs of these people are passed on.
They dont need to turn people away at the ER. They just need to hold people personally accountable. They currently dont pay because they dont have to. Make it so they have to, as with student loans... Make it so the debt is held over their head their entire life like a student loan; they'll find a way to pay or learn how to use the system more efficiently by not abusing the ER. The force of true capitalism is a beautiful thing.
     
The Final Dakar
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Aug 1, 2017, 01:32 PM
 
This has been a ongoing problem since the 90s when the Clintons tried to solve it. I didn't see the GOP do shit in the 2000s.

Considering smartphones are usually the pipes only phone and access to internet asking to give them up is to ask them to cut themselves off from the world.
     
Laminar
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Aug 1, 2017, 03:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
It needs to be law that medical prices for all services & procedures are FIXED for ALL parties, and listed in a book or website for each medical facility; just like with every other business. That way people can price hunt/compare and beautiful capitalism can take place.
That's...not capitalism. Capitalism is where the market gets to determine a fair price based on supply and demand. You're advocating for some kind of system where the government determines the price it will pay for each procedure, which sounds like what it already does with Medicare.

Also, this is absolutely not how "every other business" works. Ever try and spec out industrial equipment...or just about anything that costs more than $1000? No one puts prices on their website, you have to get a quote, and that quote will be based on who you are and how much the seller thinks they can get you to pay. That's exactly how capitalism works.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Aug 1, 2017, 05:38 PM
 
I like the idea of regulating and publicizing costs though. Without some sort of regulation there are going to be procedures where companies can get away with extremely high profit margins due to a lack of choice and/or transparency to pricing.

Maybe a good model could be the utility companies? They are regulated, but still privately operated.
     
el chupacabra
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Aug 1, 2017, 06:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
That's...not capitalism. Capitalism is where the market gets to determine a fair price based on supply and demand. You're advocating for some kind of system where the government determines the price it will pay for each procedure, which sounds like what it already does with Medicare.
Thats not what Im saying. The hospitals etc still get to determine the prices. Im just saying they need to make those prices public, and the same for everybody. This will drive the price down a great sum in the long term.

Currently whatever surgery or procedure you have done, no matter how custom you think it is... it fits into an existing bill code with a set price which the hospital has determined in collusion with each insurance company.
In el chupacabra's healthcare utopia (which isn't perfect but extremely simple & the closest thing we have to a magic bullet solution), healthcare companies will no longer be able to charge 1 insurance company less or more than another. They will no longer be able to charge an uninsured patient 6x more than they charge the insurance companies. The price will be the same for everybody. The current system favors large monopolies. Currently how it's done isnt much different than saying whites only pay this while minorities pay 6x more. Eventually insurance needs to be phased out - or at the very least force patients to pay a percentage of the total bill so theres some incentive for them to price compare before they write a blank check on the collective's dime.
Also, this is absolutely not how "every other business" works. Ever try and spec out industrial equipment...or just about anything that costs more than $1000? No one puts prices on their website, you have to get a quote, and that quote will be based on who you are and how much the seller thinks they can get you to pay. That's exactly how capitalism works.
Obviously there's exceptions to the rule, especially with wholesale. But consider most retail product services, the price is fairly obvious. Houses & cars for example costs way over a 1000, and we know the price before we buy. The medical industry has had its chance and failed when it comes to pricing or charging. And medical services are being sold primarily as a retail business in the context we're discussing. This isnt because it's a complicated business as they'd have you believe, it's deliberately trying to hide pricing from the patient till after it's provided the service.
Lets run with your idea of getting a quote though. Hospitals arent giving quotes. Very few people get a quote from hospitals/doctors before their procedure. It requires you 1st call your insurance to get the appropriate bill code for the exact procedure youre having, then you must physically visit the hospital billing department and ask them what bill code they intend to use. Then you have to show them the insurance code which will be different & cheaper while trying to argue down the price. Of course whats the point of all this work in a world where the insurance is going to pay all but the co pay anyway?

The reason capitalism's natural market forces are absent in this manner in the medical industry is because we've separated out the entity deciding who's service to buy from the entity paying the bill.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Aug 1, 2017, 07:28 PM
 
El chup: would you make insurance companies illegal in your utopia? I would think that part of their appeal is that hospitals don't have to expend resources quoting stuff, they can just sort things out with the insurance companies in shady backroom deals. This creates all sorts of problems as you've touched upon nicely, but it seems like if we take your ideas on we'd have to be aggressive and put an end to all insurance as a matter of law?

Am I thinking about this rationally?

I'm not trying to blow your ideas out of the water either, I do like the idea behind them.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Aug 1, 2017, 09:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Awwwwww. Nice try.
Those who were truly in need of care were taken care of before ObamaCare and they will be after.
Were they? Harvard says no.

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/stor...alth-coverage/
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Waragainstsleep
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Aug 1, 2017, 09:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I like the idea of regulating and publicizing costs though. Without some sort of regulation there are going to be procedures where companies can get away with extremely high profit margins due to a lack of choice and/or transparency to pricing.
Like the way some US hospitals charge $500 for an IV bag of saline? Under $5 in France.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
besson3c  (op)
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Aug 1, 2017, 10:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Like the way some US hospitals charge $500 for an IV bag of saline? Under $5 in France.
Yeah, and if you are the only hospital in the area that is capable of certain emergency procedures you could charge $5000 for that bag.
     
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Aug 1, 2017, 10:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
It needs to be law that medical prices for all services & procedures are FIXED for ALL parties, and listed in a book or website for each medical facility; just like with every other business.
That's no longer a “free” market then. Plenty of countries have a health insurance market (e. g. Germany or Switzerland), but they have two key ingredients: (1) An individual mandate, i. e. you need to get insurance. And (2) the markets are heavily regulated, not just on the price side, but also when it comes to minimum coverage and so forth.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
That way people can price hunt/compare and beautiful capitalism can take place.
But you don't hunt for prices if you were in a car accident or are having a heart attack. Health care isn't like corn flakes.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
A smart phone and it's plan; most definitely can pay a moderate monthly medical payment, sometimes all on its own since these plans can be hundreds of dollars/ month. Either way it's not about the smart phone alone, thats a red herring, it's about the cumulative costs of all the luxuries we have plenty of money for while not having money for healthcare, only because healthcare is boring and our 'toys' are fun.
Health care isn't like a smart phone plan either were you choose beforehand and you can plan ahead of time how to cover the costs. If you are hit with a curable brain cancer diagnosis in your mid-20s and the treatment costs $500,000, then there is no way for you to have saved up this money or a conceivable way to pay it back in a reasonable amount of time. Health care ≠ corn flakes or smart phones.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
They dont need to turn people away at the ER. They just need to hold people personally accountable. They currently dont pay because they dont have to. Make it so they have to, as with student loans... Make it so the debt is held over their head their entire life like a student loan; they'll find a way to pay or learn how to use the system more efficiently by not abusing the ER. The force of true capitalism is a beautiful thing.
Medical expenses are the most common cause for Americans to default on their loans, and that has been reduced after the ACA went into effect by 50 %. This essentially not just destroys a family's life because of something that might not have been a fault of their own, but also removes these people as healthy, productive citizens from society. This costs the state hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars over the course of a life time. Plus, being diagnosed with cancer or having had an accident is very different from buying a car or a house you couldn't afford.
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The Final Dakar
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Aug 1, 2017, 10:09 PM
 
No one wants to comparison shop getting their gall bladder removed. The entire concept is out of touch with reality. It's also stress inducing, which leads to poorer choices.
     
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Aug 1, 2017, 10:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
No one wants to comparison shop getting their gall bladder removed. The entire concept is out of touch with reality. It's also stress inducing, which leads to poorer choices.
Also: Do you want the cheaper doctor who is 80 % as good for your child's open heart surgery? Or would you rather sell your kidney to get the good doctor? Health care isn't a commodity like corn flakes or cars are.
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el chupacabra
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Aug 2, 2017, 01:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
El chup: would you make insurance companies illegal in your utopia?
I'd like to, but I wouldn't. It would shock the economy too much to flat out ban them. My end goal would be to force all Americans to have a health savings account (HSA) paired with a high deductible insurance plan (this already exists and is proven to work, it takes most the power away from the insurance company). The high deductible insurance plan would force insurance to offer no less than a 7000 annual deductible. I would phase this goal in over a period of many years since most people dont have a lifetime of HSA money saved up, and some never will. So to start I would have a $500/yr insurance deductible per say... And slowly raise it year after year until it reaches 7k/yr. Once that goal is reached we could re-evaluate big insurances' roll based on how far prices actually dropped, and whether or not Americans are finding significantly easier to afford healthcare on their own. The end goal is to have you putting the money you would flush down the toilet to insurance premiums into your HSA, that way you could afford a large portion of the high deductible costs with the added benefit that you could choose any doctor you wanted (no such thing as out of network anymore). Also In the end goal insurances' primary roll would be to cover heath catastrophes such as car accidents, work accidents etc, cancer, or a PERCENTAGE of high cost specialty medications. Insurance would eventually cease to cover routine doctor visits or common medications. IF all that worked out and brought cancer treatment prices down from a million dollars to 50k then we could work on banning insurance all together. But this process of bringing prices down I think will take years, since it took decades of corruption to get them where they are at now.

Most my requirements of high HSA contributions and high deductible would be set to affect 2017 babies 15-20 years from now. This is because young people dont tend to have a lot of med bills, so if parents started funding their baby's HSA today, the child would have an unfair 20 yr, $60,000 HSA head start on everyone else who already has high cost medical problems and no HSA savings to pay for them. This is why it's going to take some time to cut the head off the giant snake of insurance, kinda like how it took 20-30 years to ban lead paint. Does this make sense?

Any bills that cant be paid would be turned into a government lifetime loan. This gets rid of the problem of ghetto hospitals going out of business because their bills arent being paid... Government pays the unpaid bills instantly making sure the hospitals get paid, then government puts the debt on the patient. We would ensure that the average Joe is paying his bills more than now by garnishing wages if we have to (like child support or whatever). The debt would also hit Joe's credit report in a such a way he wouldnt be allowed to buy entertainment centers, cars, houses, high end apartments, credit cards, or anything on credit, until he paid his debts. Since Average Joe wants his toys, he will find a way to pay his medical bills. It'll be stressful, he wont like it, he'll get on the news and complain, but he'll find a way to pay and all will be dandy. In the event someone really is too poor to pay, or becomes too disabled to pay, there will be subsidies for that just like there is for everything. My goal isnt to put disabled people into $70k in debt they'll never work off... it's to get the ones that can pay.

I would think that part of their appeal is that hospitals don't have to expend resources quoting stuff, they can just sort things out with the insurance companies in shady backroom deals. This creates all sorts of problems as you've touched upon nicely, but it seems like if we take your ideas on we'd have to be aggressive and put an end to all insurance as a matter of law?
Hospitals dont need to expend resources quoting stuff. They already have a list of all procedures and set price for each procedure (depending on what insurance company it's billed to of course), they're just hiding the list from us. The hospital will be reluctant to give you the bill codes because they're trying to manipulate you. But insurance companies give them up easy, they like it when you negotiate in their favor. How it currently works for example, say you have 2 patients who need gall bladder removal. Patient 'a' has a bit more complicated surgery than patient 'b'. Despite the fact that one surgery was a little different and more difficult, both will be billed at the same price (assuming both patients use the same insurance company and nothing nefarious is going on) because the pricing is already established through bill codes, and they're both billed with the same code.
     
el chupacabra
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Aug 2, 2017, 01:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
No one wants to comparison shop getting their gall bladder removed. The entire concept is out of touch with reality. It's also stress inducing, which leads to poorer choices.
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Also: Do you want the cheaper doctor who is 80 % as good for your child's open heart surgery? Or would you rather sell your kidney to get the good doctor? Health care isn't a commodity like corn flakes or cars are.
In my city we have a hospital called MD Anderson Cancer center. It's very reputable. People travel from everywhere to get to this hospital. You see... EVERYONE wants to come to this hospital (or one like it) when they get cancer because they comparison shopped and it's one of the best. Problem is not EVERYONE can go to one hospital. I understand you all want da' best.... But "the entire concept is out of touch with reality". It's only 1 hospital so it can't accommodate everybody who wants da best. SOMEONE has to go to the cheapo hospital. Im sorry but thats how it always has been, is, and always will be. People have always comparison shopped, they're just leaving pricing out of it until insurance or government denies the treatment cost of da best. Insurance hasnt solved this problem, neither has universal healthcare. Healthcare is a commodity like cars or houses on the expensive end and like cornflakes on the cheap end. It's a limited resource. Quality healthcare is an even more limited resource.

There was a time when we didnt have a concept of open heart surgery or gall bladder removal yet the world still turned, people still lead happy lives. People didnt foam at the mouth telling a chemist at a pharmaceutical company that he was required to save their life... and everyone elses with the same treatable disease too.
Just pretend you're born during this time, then you'll appreciate what healthcare you do have rather than dwell on the unachievable fantasy that you dont have.
     
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Aug 2, 2017, 02:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
In my city we have a hospital called MD Anderson Cancer center. It's very reputable. People travel from everywhere to get to this hospital. You see... EVERYONE wants to come to this hospital (or one like it) when they get cancer because they comparison shopped and it's one of the best.
My mom works in one of the best orthopedic hospitals in the world (and I mean this literally). It is one of 7 or 8 FIFA (that's the world soccer association) approved hospitals and has a separate floor for heads of states (separate security, own kitchen, rooms for staff, bullet proof windows, the works). They treat lots of pro athletes (soccer players, ski jumpers, cyclists, etc.). And you know who can get treated there? Everyone. What about if you have the ordinary health insurance in Germany? Yes. What does it cost you? Nothing, because you have health insurance. What is the benefit for the hospital? Well, to get good at procedures, especially rare procedures, you have to do them often. Apart from better rooms and bullet proof glass, everyone gets the same medical treatment. Are they in demand? Yeah, they are growing, but of course, they can't take everyone. But they will fill their demand not just with rich Saudis or whatever who pay €€€ for everything, they are and remain open to the public. Oh, and it is a private hospital (although not all the best hospitals are private).

Could you choose a hospital in another city? Yes. How about if your preferred doctor is another state? Yes. How about if you happen to be on vacation in Europe? You're covered (thanks to the EU).
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Problem is not EVERYONE can go to one hospital. I understand you all want da' best.... But "the entire concept is out of touch with reality". It's only 1 hospital so it can't accommodate everybody who wants da best. SOMEONE has to go to the cheapo hospital.
You are conflating several issues here: one is access to good (as opposed to “cheap”) health care for everyone, and the second is access to specialists for rarer diseases and ailments. Not everyone from Florida to Utah can go to the Mayo clinic for treatment, but that's not the goal. There will be regions where health care is naturally more expensive (the rural regions) and you have no choice in hospital (as there is only one in the vicinity). Specialists can be made available for people willing to travel. But those usually don't concern emergencies. (My mom's hospital doesn't do that many emergencies, but there is another big hospital nearby, so it doesn't have to.)
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Im sorry but thats how it always has been, is, and always will be. People have always comparison shopped, they're just leaving pricing out of it until insurance or government denies the treatment cost of da best. Insurance hasnt solved this problem, neither has universal healthcare.
It hasn't been like that and at least in the US it doesn't have to be this way. Any health care system, even the best, have problems. Not all health care systems work like the British system. But even the British system outperforms the US system by a wide margin, both in terms of cost and outcomes. You'd be hard pressed to find a health care system that is more expensive than the US one and delivers the same mediocre results.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Healthcare is a commodity like cars or houses on the expensive end and like cornflakes on the cheap end. It's a limited resource. Quality healthcare is an even more limited resource.
If I don't have a car and my shoes are worn out from walking, and I finally break down in front of a car dealership, nobody gives me a car. If you get into a serious accident or have a heart attack, then you will get taken to the hospital and will receive treatment — even if you don't have insurance or can pay for your treatment. For this simple reason, health care is not and will never be a commodity like a car or corn flakes.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Just pretend you're born during this time, then you'll appreciate what healthcare you do have rather than dwell on the unachievable fantasy that you dont have.
Sure, I'm happy that we are no longer living in the Middle Ages, but even then people would help the wounded. It's just that back then humans didn't have a clue about bacteria, hygiene and how the human body worked. Unless you want to give up the premise that we help the injured and sick even if we don't have proof of insurance, nothing will change that.
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Aug 2, 2017, 09:54 AM
 
Comparing medical outcomes to a hundred years ago to justify poor access to healthcare has never been a compelling argument.
     
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Aug 2, 2017, 10:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Comparing medical outcomes to a hundred years ago to justify poor access to healthcare has never been a compelling argument.
It is because it proves it's not a right, & what you guys essentially call "poor access to healthcare" is not having a buffet of the latest technology or breakthroughs of medical services and best doctors. Something thats a physical impossibility.
     
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Aug 2, 2017, 11:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
My mom works in one of the best orthopedic hospitals in the world (and I mean this literally). It is one of 7 or 8 FIFA approved hospitals and has a separate floor for heads of states (separate security, own kitchen, rooms for staff, bullet proof windows, the works). They treat lots of pro athletes.
And you know who can get treated there? Everyone. What about if you have the ordinary health insurance in Germany? Yes. What does it cost you? Nothing, because you have health insurance.
How expensive is it to the non German athletes and sheiks?

Apart from better rooms and bullet proof glass, everyone gets the same medical treatment. Are they in demand? Yeah, they are growing, but of course, they can't take everyone.
Something isn't adding up here? So not everyone gets treated there... because as I said they can't take everyone. What we have in the US is literally, EVERYONE is trying to get the best specialists, hospitals & medications all the time. Americans are rich enough that it is nothing for basically everyone in the middle class to hop in plane and travel to the big cities where they heard about some super doctor or renowned hospital. We arent able to fill the demand, we dont even have to bring the ER abuse component into it.

But they will fill their demand not just with rich Saudis or whatever who pay €€€ for everything, they are and remain open to the public. Oh, and it is a private hospital (although not all the best hospitals are private).
An orthopedic hospital is naturally not going to be in as high demand as many other types of hospitals since orthopedic issues dont generate a sense of urgency like other ailments. This sounds like you're looking at it with rose colored glasses. I doubt everyone gets the same treatment. We have hospitals like that in the US too, at least on paper. The Mayo which you brought up is one of them. In a way they charge based on your income. They charge large fees to those who can pay. And go as far as giving free service to the poor. What this really amounts to is they are willing to TAKE and SEE everyone, but they're very good at triaging many people down the road without quality treatment.

Do you have hospitals like this orthopedic place that deal with cancers, neurological disease, heart attacks etc? As in, the kind that (seemingly) take everyone, meet all demand and offer Saudi prince quality treatment?

Could you choose a hospital in another city? Yes. How about if your preferred doctor is another state? Yes. How about if you happen to be on vacation in Europe? You're covered (thanks to the EU).
Im wondering why when one walks in the tunnels under the Mayo it's filled with wealthy Germans, French and other Europeans. Why travel a quarter the way around the world when easy access quality healthcare is right in the EU and FREE vs $50,000. I dont think you realize to the extent this is, there's hospitals here where at times it seems like the majority of their patients are Europeans. It's like this exodus from euro-care to the US. Meanwhile when we hear of Americans going to Europe for care, it tends to be the poor hippies who just want free stuff.
You are conflating several issues here: one is access to good (as opposed to “cheap”) health care for everyone, and the second is access to specialists for rarer diseases and ailments. Not everyone from Florida to Utah can go to the Mayo clinic for treatment, but that's not the goal. There will be regions where health care is naturally more expensive (the rural regions) and you have no choice in hospital (as there is only one in the vicinity). Specialists can be made available for people willing to travel. But those usually don't concern emergencies. (My mom's hospital doesn't do that many emergencies, but there is another big hospital nearby, so it doesn't have to.)
The only part you got wrong here was the bold. Americans want the best, this especially true with people wanting the latest most expensive medications (people dont have a problem getting amoxicillin etc), of which some of these pharmaceuticals have 15 years of loans to pay off for the development. Also lets not get too off track blaming ERs. Most the price setting has nothing to do with the ER. Our ER situation is used as a cop-out by hospitals as a way to blame patients for everything. There is a way to make a business out of the ER and even expand it to fill demand (that is, get the bills paid...), theres also a ways for prices to drop for ER visits. And the solution I gave with my government loan program would fix the current ER problem and make it into a profitable adaptable business. What happened to our broken system mostly has to do with a business built on hiding the prices till after you've been treated. This situation can never work for keeping prices down.

If I don't have a car and my shoes are worn out from walking, and I finally break down in front of a car dealership, nobody gives me a car. If you get into a serious accident or have a heart attack, then you will get taken to the hospital and will receive treatment — even if you don't have insurance or can pay for your treatment. For this simple reason, health care is not and will never be a commodity like a car or corn flakes.
The majority of healthcare visits arent ER, so thats not whats driving the price up regardless of what the puppet masters want us to believe with their cop-outs. In your example you have demonstrated how people cant always price /quality shop for healthcare in the event it's a dire emergency. This throws a wrench in my "healthcare commodity" comparison but it's not as big a wrench as you might think. Once natural market forces start driving prices down for non emergency medical care that people can price shop, this will carry over to the ER prices. I also said prices should be fixed and transparent to the public. Prices are already somewhat fixed (even for ER visits), just in an unfair manner thats not transparent to the public.
     
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Aug 2, 2017, 11:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
It is because it proves it's not a right, & what you guys essentially call "poor access to healthcare" is not having a buffet of the latest technology or breakthroughs of medical services and best doctors. Something thats a physical impossibility.
LOL

What I call poor access to healthcare is not being able to afford having ****ing health insurance or access to preventive care!

FFS get out of here with your delusional nonsense
     
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Aug 2, 2017, 11:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Houses & cars for example costs way over a 1000, and we know the price before we buy.
When's the last time you bought either of those things? You absolutely do not know the cost. A huge component of purchasing either of those items is negotiation, and in nearly every case, the seller has a huge knowledge advantage over the buyer and all sorts of shady shit goes down.
     
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Aug 2, 2017, 11:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
When's the last time you bought either of those things? You absolutely do not know the cost. A huge component of purchasing either of those items is negotiation, and in nearly every case, the seller has a huge knowledge advantage over the buyer and all sorts of shady shit goes down.
I would also say no one enjoys doing either one.
     
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Aug 2, 2017, 11:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
It is because it proves it's not a right, & what you guys essentially call "poor access to healthcare" is not having a buffet of the latest technology or breakthroughs of medical services and best doctors.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...ood-trumpcare/

Texas’ state-funded program promised to maintain the same level of care for patients without Planned Parenthood, through community health clinics, federally qualified health centers, and more. In reality, there was a significant drop in care for low-income patients: A number of clinics closed. Other health centers attempted to step in, but nearly 26,000 fewer women received reproductive health care. Medicaid contraception claims declined by 35 percent, suggesting that fewer low-income women were obtaining contraceptive care.
I'm not sure what bubble you live in, but poor access to health care is a real thing. If the nearest provider requires an hour drive each way and can only be visited between 9am and 4pm, that means taking a half day off of work, probably unpaid, to get a checkup or prescription refilled. That's literally poor access to health care, and it's literally a thing for millions of people.
     
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Aug 2, 2017, 05:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
It is because it proves it's not a right, & what you guys essentially call "poor access to healthcare" is not having a buffet of the latest technology or breakthroughs of medical services and best doctors. Something thats a physical impossibility.
I liked your posts better when you weren't saying crazy stuff.
     
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Aug 2, 2017, 08:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
How expensive is it to the non German athletes and sheiks?
I don't know what sheiks pay, I imagine a lot, but German athletes pay the same as everyone else for the medical treatment, it's covered by their insurance (if they want private rooms or so, that would cost extra).
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
An orthopedic hospital is naturally not going to be in as high demand as many other types of hospitals since orthopedic issues dont generate a sense of urgency like other ailments.
Demand ≠ urgency. Many of the medical problems treated there are not urgent in the way emergency heart surgery is. But with specialized hospitals demand can still be quite high, because there are few hospitals that specialize on these types of surgeries.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
This sounds like you're looking at it with rose colored glasses. I doubt everyone gets the same treatment.
It's hard for you to imagine, but yeah, everyone gets the same medical treatment. My mom has an exceedingly rare liver disease and gets treated by a very renowned specialist at one of the university hospitals. He took the case because he wanted to make it part of his research, and she didn't need special insurance or anything.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
We have hospitals like that in the US too, at least on paper. The Mayo which you brought up is one of them. In a way they charge based on your income. They charge large fees to those who can pay.
My mom's hospital is an outlier here. While most renowned clinics in Germany do take patients from abroad who are willing to pay everything themselves, most hospitals do not rely on that. And most hospitals are associated to municipalities or universities (and therefore the German states), and they don't have a money making motive. Most of the best hospitals are associated to universities, because this not only attracts top talent but also is where medical research happens. All the balancing between poorer and richer patients that is done on a hospital level is done at the insurance level in Germany: there are many non-profit companies that offer public health insurance, and these compete on services and rates. There is a lower and an upper cap of what you pay, the lower cap is ~140 € per month if I remember correctly, and that would insure not just you but all of your dependents as well (partner and children), provided they don't work and have health insurance of their own. I don't remember what the upper cap is. In between you are charged based on your income, ~14 % of your salary. Your employer contributes another ~14 %. Any balancing is done on the insurance level. As far as hospitals go, there is no difference between poor, middle class and rich patients as long as they are insured via the public option. The hospital gets exactly the same rate, and the rate is determined by the disease you have (it is precisely tabulated).

There is also private health care, but that is much more costly. Higher level state employees for some arcane reason are forced to take private health insurance. Depending on the level of coverage (there is a minimum, of course, this market is highly regulated), you may have the right to upgrade to single rooms in hospitals or you have the right to ask for the chief of, say, surgery to treat you. Of course, if you go for the public option, you can purchase extra insurance to do the same.

The main difference between public and private insurances is the following: public insurances work like the rain forest, meaning that they take in the money from their clients and apart from smaller amounts for administration and a safety cushion to compensate for fluctuations, they spend all the money they take in on health care. Private insurance works like a life insurance: individual members accumulate money over the years, and the insurance then pays out when you need it most (for most people that would be during birth, pregnancy and end-of-life care). Something like ~90 % of the people are publicly insured.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Do you have hospitals like this orthopedic place that deal with cancers, neurological disease, heart attacks etc? As in, the kind that (seemingly) take everyone, meet all demand and offer Saudi prince quality treatment?
Yes, of course, Germany is a first world country, the richest Western country after the US. And yes, in terms of medical treatment, demand of high quality health care is met for the population. They take any patient, because as state-owned-and-operated facilities they take publicly insured patients, and from the hospitals point of view a jobless person with health insurance makes them the exact same amount as a millionaire with public insurance.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
And the solution I gave with my government loan program would fix the current ER problem and make it into a profitable adaptable business. What happened to our broken system mostly has to do with a business built on hiding the prices till after you've been treated. This situation can never work for keeping prices down.
A government loan would be a government subsidy that would keep certain people in eternal poverty. There are certain diseases which are so expensive, that a middle class individual cannot pay back these loans over his or her lifetime. Your idea really solves nothing.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
The majority of healthcare visits arent ER, so thats not whats driving the price up regardless of what the puppet masters want us to believe with their cop-outs. In your example you have demonstrated how people cant always price /quality shop for healthcare in the event it's a dire emergency. This throws a wrench in my "healthcare commodity" comparison but it's not as big a wrench as you might think. Once natural market forces start driving prices down for non emergency medical care that people can price shop, this will carry over to the ER prices. I also said prices should be fixed and transparent to the public. Prices are already somewhat fixed (even for ER visits), just in an unfair manner thats not transparent to the public.
Market forces are not some deus ex machina that works in mysterious ways, that you can invoke to magically make your argument make sense. From a market perspective, it is completely clear why other countries' health care systems are cheaper and offer better outcomes: in the parlance of economics, they are more vertically integrated — just like Apple and Samsung. Apple's chip business doesn't have to turn a profit on its own, which is why it's cheaper (for Apple) and allows it to taylor its chips to its needs. In the fragmented US system, every party has to make a profit, and that is one cause for costs to go up: insurance companies can pass higher device and medication costs on to its customers.

Another issue is that of the ER: in the US poor people often have to wait until a disease is severe enough so that they get free treatment. That is much more expensive than preventative health care. Here in Japan, employees have annual (free) health checks that cover the most important ailments. In Germany, breast cancer screenings, regular checkups at the dentists and so on are free for that very same reason, in case of breast cancer you spend €€€ to save €€€€€.
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Aug 2, 2017, 08:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
It is because it proves it's not a right, & what you guys essentially call "poor access to healthcare" is not having a buffet of the latest technology or breakthroughs of medical services and best doctors. Something thats a physical impossibility.
No, it doesn't. For otherwise voting wouldn't be a right by the same “argument” — since people in the Middle Ages couldn't vote for their government. In many countries, health care is a constitutional right, and even in the US you do have some rights to health care. There are certain situations where hospitals are legally obliged to treat you. And perhaps in the US the idea of health care being a right is new, this is completely established in other modern countries.
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Aug 8, 2017, 03:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I liked your posts better when you weren't saying crazy stuff.
Throughout history truth has been called crazy, Galileo, Darwin, el chupacabra of macnn. But no big deal, here on a communist web forum us moderates are used to being called crazy all the time.

A buffet is where people pay 1 fee, and get to help themselves to any number of food dishes and return an unspecified number of times. Liberals argue for everything up unto birth control to be paid for with a single fee we call a "premium" (If I had the motivation I could just pull threads from the past). Thats a buffet. If you dont see the ridiculousness of it - just for rhetorical purposes think about the comparison of birth control, a pill you predictably take routinely, compared to a car accident, or cancer. It might make sense to have a subsidy or insurance type scheme in place for really costly medical issues, but not the little stuff. That just results in high prices for poor quality "buffet" food.
the largest problem for Americans today is they eat too much food and dont have enough work to do to keep their heart healthy
     
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Aug 8, 2017, 03:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
just for rhetorical purposes think about the comparison of birth control, a pill you predictably take routinely,
The Pill is garbage birth control. Those that have IUDs as an option tend to prefer them, and they're an order of magnitude more effective.

compared to a car accident, or cancer. It might make sense to have a subsidy or insurance type scheme in place for really costly medical issues, but not the little stuff. That just results in high prices for poor quality "buffet" food.
Every dollar spent on providing birth control saves four dollars in Medicare costs of pregnancy and childbirth.

http://www.expressnews.com/news/loca...l-11732208.php

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-s...axpayers-money

Sometimes having any cost associated with health care is a barrier to people seeking care, which means they skip physicals, wait until injuries get worse, and/or use the emergency room, putting a larger cost burden on the health insurance industry and Medicare.
     
   
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