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jango · Mar 28, 2003, 03:36 PM

Agreed. Lothar=Troll.

Stingrey · Mar 28, 2003, 03:38 PM

Your mother has everything to do with this. You were not held enough as a child. What I am saying is that you came across as hostile, and I hope your mother is proud of you because of that. Now, mind you, I didn't come from the happiest family environment either but I don't come to an adult forum and post like a child would

what the hell is Apples problem with 2 mouse buttons?

This is hostile. What do you expect people will respond based on? Affection towards your gently induced opinions? I don't think so. I am completely clear the trackpad is the equivalant of a mouse, as I in fact own the 17" Powerbook myself. I am quite clear about the difference between the term trackpad and mouse, however, and thus my humor at it appearing that you yourself had purchased a one button mouse and then began to bash it.

Ignorance is truly bliss, which is why you can't seem to realize why everyone is all in a huff over your post. How you string together words has a great influence on people. You need to realize that you did cause this, you cannot retract what you've said since it is already posted for all to see, and people are simply reacting to that which you have typed. We all realize this, but can't help but respond due to the way you posted. No big deal, I was trying to point out that it was funny, then tried to back you on some issues so you could know that I too could design a laptop differently if I were on a design team, but we aren't. Those of us that responded did so to defend that which we wanted to purchase. You attacked an item that most of us adore. Enough said.

In short, being an adult forum, I hope you are able to deal with what I've stated, which is that your mother had everything to do with this. Had you not grown to be tactless person you are, we would not be jumping all over you right now on the way you posted and why it would seem that most of us already knew we had one "mouse" button, F keys, and in addition, felt that the laptop was perfectly fine just the way it was. You would have said instead to your employer or whoever purchased that laptop that you did not care for it and would instead prefer something smaller, with two "mouse" buttons, and with lots of programmable keys. We unfortunately cannot help you with your dislike for this product in its current design state. Being an adult, one would think you would have realized that on your own.

Rey.

Originally posted by lothar154:
What does my mother have to do with this? If you cant handle constructive criticism without such a childish, baseless resposne perhaps you shouldn't post on an adult forum. And by the way, the track pad on the laptop is the equivalent a mouse (if you can understand this). The laptop doesn't come with a two button mouse but it should. I find great humor in your response as well. Ignorance truly is bliss.

ghost_flash · Mar 28, 2003, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by AssassyN:
*refrains from any further posts on this topic because I was initially trying to have a logical and sensible debate, but this is way out of hand*

Ya think?

---------------------------------------------

I'm no Soccer Fan but Lothar Mathaus just plain sucks btw... What do you expect from GERMANY anyhow?

He now has 202 points btw... not 154.

Cheers!
:O)

cgmpowers · Mar 28, 2003, 03:47 PM

I try not to get in the middle of 'p&ing contests' but here's a comment that actually hasn't really been said yet.

Someone said a few dozen messages back, "why would you really need 17" and its too big"...or something near that.

Well...17" on a laptop is fantastic. Final Cut Pro is definately better looking at the screen size & resolution of a 17" than its on a 12". 14" or 15" screen.

Its not compact, the 17", its not...its not designed to be. Its a thin, computer but its a whopping 17" screen for crying out loud...its specifically that large for the people who need the desktop real estate...

If you want compact, the 12" is great...and I would have gotten it if I didn't need the screen size...and the fact that its not 1 ghz with 1 gig of ram capable..

One more comment about docking stations. I'm not sure why anyone needs one, although there is a company that makes one for the 12" powerbook..

A very large amount of the powerbook users have them plugged into either Studio or Cinema displays--which have two USB ports on the rear of the display. Plug Apple Pro keyboard and you've got 2 more ports..that's 6 total.

Christopher Powers

exa · Mar 28, 2003, 03:49 PM

In before lock

bluejam · Mar 28, 2003, 03:53 PM

Hello everyone. I am new to writing in forums so please don't mind a little lack of proper etiquette. I have read enough from these very informative forums to see BS. Im amazed at how many veterans were sucked in by this person. He obviously did not purchase the 17 PB. He has seen it and is hoping to justify saving money for a cheaper PC with "more" features.
Lothar, stop whining about being flamed. Your original post is obviously more of an insult than contructive critisism. You don't fool me.

Over Achiever · Mar 28, 2003, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by lothar154:
Why is 2 buttons and a scroll pad too much to ask for?

Coming from a PC laptop, I totally understand where you're coming from. And as for the right-clicking, I've been doing that all the time using the 17" powerbook.

A couple of things (to help you deal with the shock of Mac OS X)...
Ctrl-click to right click. Sorry, it's seems to be apple's trademark to have 1 button mouse all the way, but when I bought my computer, I knew that that'd be something I'd deal with, and accepted it.

I've been looking around for a program to add "hot spots" to the trackpad...since it is so large, having the top right corner has right click, top left corner as middle click, that'd be cool.

As for scrolling, nothing beats a rocker button. On my old laptop, i had "scrolling" zones. You can have scrolling zones on your powerbook as well, and it helped ease my transition. Look up uControl on www.versiontracker.com. If you hold down the Fn key, that activites horizontal and vertical scrolling. You can also remap keys, a nice touch. I didn't see the need for an enter key so I remapped it to be a ctrl key, giving me another button to right-click.

Hey, no computer is perfect. You have to know the tradeoffs for each computer...this 17" computer won't be the most portable one. But with the size of the screen, it is a decent weight, decent battery life, semi-decent speed, and extremely nice build.

If you're looking for an ultraportable, try the Toshiba Portege R100 Series ... decent processor and ultra portable size. Sure it doesn't have certain features (optical drive, etc.) and isn't the most higher performance, but it is one of the best ultralights out there. The Centrino chip is an amazing piece of work.

As for posting this on MacNN, you do know that this is generally a mac fan site (although I'm not on the mac bandwagon yet), so you knew the type of responses that you'd be getting, so I don't feel sorry for you.

Anyway, you brought up a good point. The 17" really isn't the perfect computer, but all I have are minor complaints. NO computer will ever be perfect...

-O.A.

Over Achiever · Mar 28, 2003, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by exa:
In before lock

Now that is just plain silly...

AssassyN · Mar 28, 2003, 04:05 PM

Well stated Over Achiever (your explaination post, 2 posts up), and I totally love your signature, that is certainly a quote to live by.

OSXFreak · Mar 28, 2003, 04:07 PM

I've just bought a Porsche 911, arguably the best, most practical everyday sportscar on the planet. But the heater controls really suck. So I guess it's not the best sportscar on the planet

Sound familiar?

lothar154: do understand the meaning of the words "perspective" and "proportion"?

Save your naive postings for a PC forum. This place is for people who have genuinely purchased/are about to purchase Apple HW.

Go home troll

Over Achiever · Mar 28, 2003, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by AssassyN:
I totally love your signature, that is certainly a quote to live by.

Yup Sheryl Crow.

ghost_flash · Mar 28, 2003, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by OSXFreak:
I've just bought a Porsche 911, arguably the best, most practical everyday sportscar on the planet. But the heater controls really suck. So I guess it's not the best sportscar on the planet

Sound familiar?

lothar154: do understand the meaning of the words "perspective" and "proportion"?

Save your naive postings for a PC forum. This place is for people who have genuinely purchased/are about to purchase Apple HW.

Go home troll

The heater controls suck? Really?
Wow.... looks like a Vette for me.

AssassyN · Mar 28, 2003, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by Over Achiever:
Yup Sheryl Crow.

Ahh, I knew it was in a song!

ghost_flash · Mar 28, 2003, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by AssassyN:
Ahh, I knew it was in a song!

Your signature ain't so bad either.

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

I can dig it.

chrisutley · Mar 28, 2003, 04:21 PM

Originally posted by lothar154:
No one had the powerbooks (17inch) to look at. But it doesn't matter.

Did you ever consider going to www.apple.com and researching the product before ordering? Every single thing you complained about could have been detected in advance of ordering.

AssassyN · Mar 28, 2003, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
Your signature ain't so bad either.

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

I can dig it.

Thank you very much! Yeah, it's my "Senior Quote" in our upcoming Senior Yearbook and it's definitely my favorite passage out of the Bible. It has really affected me because of the amazing love I've received from my heavenly Father & my girlfriend of 1 & a half years.

If everyone would just have love...

lokjah · Mar 28, 2003, 04:41 PM

i agree Icruise..... on all points.. not too mention someone who "allegedly"
used a mac for 3yrs and is suprised that his new 17" thorn in his side doesnt have a second trackpad button is just sad.

and again why did you buy a 17" if you continually complain about it and say its "not needed" ?

sorry bro, but it seems like you made the wrong decision to buy this...and its clear that you did all your "research" AFTER you bought it, because as much complaining as you are doing now, you wouldnt have bought it.

the best way to "criticize and critique" apple would be to NOT buy one.

l�k

Originally posted by Icruise:
Your attitude makes me wonder if you are not just trolling, but for the heck of it I will respond.

How is this wrong? Your Vaio has 802.11g built in? News to me. Apple was also first with internal 802.11b with the ibooks.

[/b]

Surely you realize that the 17" is a big laptop. If you want a more portable computer, get a 15" or 12" powerbook or ibook. Duh.

[/b]

The biggest RAM modules available at the time of the manufacture of the 17" were 512MB. When the 1GB modules become commonly available they should work.

I'm getting tired of this, so I'll leave it here. But I must ask, why on earth did you buy it if it is such a terrible machine? [/B]

gururafiki · Mar 28, 2003, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by lothar154:
Just one? Your comparison of P4 vs G4 for one, your upgrading to 2 Gig of Ram (not going to happen). Size of pc laptops (.77 sony) etc.

2 Gig of RAM is going to happen as 1gig dimms are available, and 1gig + 1gig = 2gigs!

jamez bond · Mar 28, 2003, 05:11 PM

yeah, sod it...I don't like this post anymore either...

mbryda · Mar 28, 2003, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by lothar154:

There are at least 4 PC laptops with internal DVD RW (almost all have the option of DVD R (which only reads DVD)).

IBM has a DVDRW model so does HP, Compaq, Acer and even more.

Can you please point me to a link on IBM's site where they have a DVD burning notebook? I buy lots of IBM notebooks for my company and have yet to see any. Would be a nice new notebook for me.

Also, can you please point me in a direction for a DVD burining Compaq or HP notebook. Checked their site as well and came up empty.

The only ones I knew of were the Apple, Sony, and Toshiba.

OSXFreak · Mar 28, 2003, 07:46 PM

You're some kind of biscuit. Er try a PC/IBM forum buddy?

Anyone got a recipe for boiled tripe? I hear this forum is THE resource for tripe recipes......

mbryda · Mar 28, 2003, 08:27 PM

I want to know where he found them - I use a Mac by night and have to use Windows by day. However, I would love to have a DVD burner for work (as it is now I bring things home and burn them on my iMac)...

PoisonTooth · Mar 28, 2003, 09:36 PM

Originally posted by ghost_flash:

3. 1ghz = 2ghz PC

Um, NO. Perhaps in the world of Apple marketing a 1GHz G4 tops a 2GHz P4, but in the real world, no way. Not even close.

If you're gonna tout Apple's benefits, realize that speed is most definitely NOT one of them. If anything, it's a liability.

And before you call me a troll, know that I am a 1GHz TiBook/1GB RAM owner.

Enjoy your pc, I wish you luck, and hope you didn't crash in the process of reading this post.

Good God -- more Apple marketing regurgitated as empirical data.

Everyone understand this: Windows XP -- although not as elegant as OSX -- is a very stable OS. My XP desktop has been running for 2 months straight, coming in and out of standby perfectly.

Give it a rest -- the Windows crashing argument holds up with Win 9x, but since Win2K, Windows has been pretty stable, if unweildy and unelegant at times.

Hey, I like Macs as much as the next guy, but if you want to argue the virtues of each platform, at least do so reasonably instead of vomiting forth the standard cliche tripe Apple feeds to us.

seanyepez · Mar 28, 2003, 11:25 PM

I think "quick launch" buttons and a second mouse button would serve to diminish the aesthetic appeal of the PowerBook. Tthe design philosophy behind the PowerBook (and every other Apple product) is perfect the way it is. Apple hardware is sleek because it's simple.

ghost_flash · Mar 29, 2003, 02:18 AM

I was referring to the MHZ myth and probably didn't express the sarcasm enough with that statement.

You are indeed correct about the stability of XP, and I think it has a horrible interface as I also have been using WINDOWS for many years... Heck, I've been around since before windows when I used DOS... now that was fun.

No need to get pre-defensive on me, I'm not going to call you names like that other guy. (He's an ahole for sure).

You, I give the benefit of the doubt, though I must say you had to pick out 2 of my 20 points? Sheesh.

So that would be 18 out of 20.... 20/18 = 90 percent. Still an A.

I'm not regurgitating anything, I didn't even see a Switcher commercial until after I ordered my machine. I don't watch too much television.

XP = Solid, but still windows with all the shortcomings such as the registry and all those great viri, and oh, security holes that have constant patches, and on, and on, and on...

1ghz / 17" / 1gb ram / and VPC-6-XP < Just for my VPN

gdiddy · Mar 29, 2003, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by jango:
Agreed. Lothar=Troll.

No!

Lothar=Son of Zimphire

Where do they find all this free time?

Raidiant · Mar 29, 2003, 10:57 AM

some of the arguments here is ridiculous

I absolutely agree that though not needed a 2 mouse button will be better, however i'm not sure if right mouse button or crl+click is more tedios

the standby recovery on vaios is true depending on what your doing, but as far as I can tell apple computers recover faster especially in stuff like games or dvd.

first of all vaio laptops they offer as much features as an ibook at a more expensive price they're laptops only feature combo drives and built in wireless at powerbook prices.

The scroll wheel is even more ridiculus, when you have the arrow keys, I agree the jog dial is a really cool feature, but then again sony vaio laptops are over priced.

Quicklaunch buttons? thats what the dock is for!!

at least for me when I had to choose a laptop for university I could'nt afford anything wireless but the ibook which forced me to switch, I honestly tried to buy a VAIO cause I really liked sony but nothing comes close to the value of an ibook.

0.77 inchs thick? yeah but without an optical drive, i'm sure you'll be happy trying to find your i.link optical drive in the middle of a airplace to play a dvd.

The dvdr laptops you mention are ridiculously huge, including sony's own executive class laptops

but then again I have no right to comment....I have never used a powebook before so ultimately you must have more experience in expensive stuff.

GreenwoodMO · Mar 29, 2003, 11:13 AM

I have had my PB17 for a week and love it. I have no complaints at all. I am a first time Mac user and still have 4 machines on my network running XP. They have not been touched since i received my PB. The worst thing about my mac is that I can't use it at work. I have to use a crappy Tecra 8000 running Microsoft 2k. The OS X operating system is much more stable than Microcraps XP. Of course comming from a Linux bigget.

Just my 17'' 's worth...

ghost_flash · Mar 29, 2003, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by GreenwoodMO:
I have had my PB17 for a week and love it. I have no complaints at all. I am a first time Mac user and still have 4 machines on my network running XP. They have not been touched since i received my PB. The worst thing about my mac is that I can't use it at work. I have to use a crappy Tecra 8000 running Microsoft 2k. The OS X operating system is much more stable than Microcraps XP. Of course comming from a Linux bigget.

Just my 17'' 's worth...

Better be careful calling XP unstable!
Someone in here might say you were regurgitating the mac marketing shpeel.

XP is stable but... butt ugly and a friggin HOG!
There are too many things to list about Microsoft that are wrong, I don't care what the Centrino biggots spout about their pc's.

Bottom Line: PC's are just the red-headed stepchild that deserves to be beat by an apple every day of every year!

This is me giving micro-SOFT the finger! See-ya!

-ghost

claughery · Mar 29, 2003, 11:36 AM

Originally posted by GreenwoodMO:
I have had my PB17 for a week and love it. I have no complaints at all. I am a first time Mac user and still have 4 machines on my network running XP. They have not been touched since i received my PB. The worst thing about my mac is that I can't use it at work. I have to use a crappy Tecra 8000 running Microsoft 2k. The OS X operating system is much more stable than Microcraps XP. Of course comming from a Linux bigget.

Just my 17'' 's worth...

Just have to say that I love your attitude! That is the same way I felt a few years back! Welcome to the wonderful wold of Mac Computing!

chabig · Mar 29, 2003, 11:37 AM

1. 802.11b/g wireless built in, since well 2 years before any PC

Um..this is flat out wrong. My Sony Vaio VX 88 has wireless built in with the ability to turn it off when there is no signal to conserve its amazing 5 hour batterly life. I have had it for almost a year and it was out several months before I bought it. Hm...

Yes, but Apple introduced Airport in 1999.

Chris

icruise · Mar 29, 2003, 02:17 PM

I'm sure our friend Lothar is long gone by now...

lothar154 · Mar 30, 2003, 11:34 AM

Well, well. I should have known better then to post to a forum where ideoogical debate is belittled to bloated and belicose chatter. It is very clear from all of the posts that do nothing then fame (my thanks to those of you who wrote in and gave an honest, balanced, and (gasp) constructive opinion. It's interesting to see your true colors.

For those looking for PC laptops with DVD drives and claim HP and Compaq nor Dell or IBM make them, look harder. I am typing this on an HP Ze series with build in DVD/RW. If you go to HP or Compaq's website you can customize their laptops - i.e. you need to hit customize and then you can add a whole slew of features. Same with Dell and IBM.

For those of you who have felt the need to respond to me as a "Troll" well, I find that laughable. As far as I am concerned the world of computing needs a regime change (across the board). Mac is a dying regime - Sadaam Hussein anyone...

That probably will result in a 100 flames all together but I couldn't resist. The bottom line is that there is no one product that is superior - if that were the case, Mac wouldn't have such an abysmally small market share. If it so much better, why don't we all on Macs? You ten only to see them at educational institutions and in movies. It' all about style. The perception that MAC pushes is style, not function and even their style is polarized (some like it, others don't.).

My issues regarding seeminlgy superficial aspects of Mac design are a matter of perspective and are all relative. Almost all of you that have written about the single button issue also admit to having an external mouse...with two buttons. You don't even realize your own hypocrisy. Mac's are profoundly more expensive then PC laptops, as a result their resale value is higher, because you are starting out with a more expensive product and their market share is rediculously small - their value is a function of market dynamics and not inherent worth.

Irrespective of any arguments, it is absurd that macs don't have the basic features that drive the computing industry. I shouldn't have to buy and external mouse - I should have a scroll pad. Why should a 900.00 piece of junk Windows laptop (todays model) come better equiped then the 3,800.00 Powerbook that I am using at home?

Apple clings to what has gotten it this far - the perception of syle and uniqeness and history. To change to something more functional would go against what they think they stand for and that is just sad. For the most part you all misunderstood the nature of my post and as a result most of you have gone on the offensive bashing PCs and forcing me to take a defensive position. But all of this is academic. Until one product and one company has the majority of the market share (whoops, someone does...) this is all academic. My initial response was to many of you who posted on here that the 17 inch was perfect, it clearly isn't and neither Mac or PC in my opinion has come out with an ideal configuration - thats why they keep reinventing the wheel all the time and after a month your machine is obsolete.

So flame me, call me a troll all you want. Reality bites, doesnt it.

jamez bond · Mar 30, 2003, 12:03 PM

hear, hear lothar!

ghost_flash · Mar 30, 2003, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by lothar154:
Well, well. I should have known better then to post to a forum where ideoogical debate is belittled to bloated and belicose chatter. It is very clear from all of the posts that do nothing then fame (my thanks to those of you who wrote in and gave an honest, balanced, and (gasp) constructive opinion. It's interesting to see your true colors.

"Belittled,bloated, and belicose"? < Beautiful.

My colors are red-white-blue, and Aluminum.

For those looking for PC laptops with DVD drives and claim HP and Compaq nor Dell or IBM make them, look harder. I am typing this on an HP Ze series with build in DVD/RW. If you go to HP or Compaq's website you can customize their laptops - i.e. you need to hit customize and then you can add a whole slew of features. Same with Dell and IBM.

Yeah, what happend to the 17" Powerbook? Oh, you never had one.
Right, you need to hit customize and add the features... duh.
What was the final cost of that "customized" computer?
List all the features added and then the actual cost.
Did your "Boss" buy you this one too?

For those of you who have felt the need to respond to me as a "Troll" well, I find that laughable. As far as I am concerned the world of computing needs a regime change (across the board). Mac is a dying regime - Sadaam Hussein anyone...

So, you are now a laughing troll then.
"Regime change" : Now that is funny.
Mac isn't the RULING regime, only 3% of the whole... the rest is all PEECEE... so yes, a REGIME CHANGE is necessary... fewer pc's.

"Saddam Hussein anyone"... are you him? Nah, he's DEAD.

That probably will result in a 100 flames all together but I couldn't resist. The bottom line is that there is no one product that is superior - if that were the case, Mac wouldn't have such an abysmally small market share. If it so much better, why don't we all on Macs? You ten only to see them at educational institutions and in movies. It' all about style. The perception that MAC pushes is style, not function and even their style is polarized (some like it, others don't.).

That is what you want. 100 flames or at least that.
This is your purpose for posting in this forum.
19 posts with only ONE main topic, and that is how Apples are not adequate compared to pc's. This makes you a troll.

No, the market share has been determined by Microsoft.
If they made MAC only software then MAC would determine the market share.

It's [mac] vastly more functional for ME than a PC.

My issues regarding seeminlgy superficial aspects of Mac design are a matter of perspective and are all relative. Almost all of you that have written about the single button issue also admit to having an external mouse...with two buttons. You don't even realize your own hypocrisy. Mac's are profoundly more expensive then PC laptops, as a result their resale value is higher, because you are starting out with a more expensive product and their market share is rediculously small - their value is a function of market dynamics and not inherent worth.

You are free to choose which computer and mouse you use.
Macs support two button scrolling mice. What is your problem?
The Trackpad?
"I" like it just fine, and I'm coming from the PC world.
It's not a big deal.

Irrespective of any arguments, it is absurd that macs don't have the basic features that drive the computing industry. I shouldn't have to buy and external mouse - I should have a scroll pad. Why should a 900.00 piece of junk Windows laptop (todays model) come better equiped then the 3,800.00 Powerbook that I am using at home?

You don't have to buy a mouse with a PC? They include them now free?
How many pc's have scroll pads? My Compaq 2700T didn't.... it had two buttons, but I don't miss them at all. Too many plus' in the MAC that just make me love this machine. That's MY experience, and oppinion.

900.00 Windows based laptop is better equiped? If so for you then great! Buy the computer and then use it.

Apple clings to what has gotten it this far - the perception of syle and uniqeness and history. To change to something more functional would go against what they think they stand for and that is just sad. For the most part you all misunderstood the nature of my post and as a result most of you have gone on the offensive bashing PCs and forcing me to take a defensive position. But all of this is academic. Until one product and one company has the majority of the market share (whoops, someone does...) this is all academic. My initial response was to many of you who posted on here that the 17 inch was perfect, it clearly isn't and neither Mac or PC in my opinion has come out with an ideal configuration - thats why they keep reinventing the wheel all the time and after a month your machine is obsolete.

So flame me, call me a troll all you want. Reality bites, doesnt it.

Apple clings? I think it is a design philosophy which works.
They are always coming up with new and exciting designs, never seen before in the computer marketplace. That's just my oppinion and that of many experts who write for PC magazine, CNET, etc...
Again, they are oppinions. Educated oppinions for sure.

The 17" computer is perfect. It is perfect for me, and many of those whom have researched the other computers out there and made an educated decision based upon their needs. Unlike you.

You invite flames. It is your purpose for this thread.
Instead you received reasonable responses and you lashed back.
Many in here are very perceptive to posters like yourself and quickly identified you as a troll, and then moved on to more constructive posts they would rather respond to in more detail.

You would know them if you had a constructive desire to learn more, but you do not.

I'm a new switcher as they say, and it was in my better interest to do so, for me.

Enjoy the DEAD thread you have just revived (intentionally) just to get a kick out of the responses you will receive. You are simply an anger monger. One whom delights in causing trouble, just to get a reaction from people.

You are a troll.

Cheers!
-Ghost

icruise · Mar 30, 2003, 12:15 PM

You were not flamed because of your opinions regarding the Mac vis-a-vis Windows machines. You were flamed because of the way you presented those opinions. It was very condescending and rude. But if it makes you feeel better to attribute the responses here to the small-mindedness of Mac users, I guess that is your right.

ghost_flash · Mar 30, 2003, 12:33 PM

http://ctodirect.ebus.hp.com/servlet...ghpd.ConfigHpd

This is my configuration that came as close as possible to the 17" powerbook if you can say that, from HP.

HP 5300 ZE 1.8 ghz / DVD R drive... 15" screen....

$2,636.98 and I added a USB illuminated keyboard... lol.

That's a far cry from $900.00 pal.

I'd rather get a Titanium 15.2" laptop with built in DVD for less.

Your TOAST.

-Ghost...

chabig · Mar 30, 2003, 12:47 PM

For those looking for PC laptops with DVD drives and claim HP and Compaq nor Dell or IBM make them, look harder. I am typing this on an HP Ze series with build in DVD/RW. If you go to HP or Compaq's website you can customize their laptops - i.e. you need to hit customize and then you can add a whole slew of features.

I went to HPs website and he's right, you can add a DVD+RW/R drive to the Ze5300 laptop. Here is how it comes out:

1.8GHz Pentium 4 (faster is available for $$)
Windows XP
15 inch display
512MB RAM
60GB hard drive
Firewire 400
DVD+RW/R CD-RW combo drive
802.11b
PC Card slot
S-video out
3 USB ports
built-in graphics (video RAM is taken out of the system RAM--"shared video memory")
Infrared port

All for $1872.

The 17" Powerbook has all of those features, and more. Let's see what is in the Powerbook but NOT in the HP:

Bluetooth
Firewire 800
Digital video out
NVidia GeForce4 with dedicated 64MB memory
802.11b/g
lighted keyboard
gigabit ethernet (the HP had no ethernet!)
Audio in
Built-in microphone
Large, beautiful screen

So yes, you can get a DVD burner for less money, but you also get overall less computer.

Just trying to be fair.

Chris

PeterKG · Mar 30, 2003, 01:18 PM

So flame me, call me a troll all you want. Reality bites, doesnt it. [/B]

You were flamed and called a troll because the whole premise of your first post. You lied and said you owned a 17" Powerbook of which you obviously don't.

tonewheel · Mar 30, 2003, 01:38 PM

Ignore this kid. He's a high-schooler, and doesn't even have a "boss" let alone a 17".

Next topic....please.

Xtraz · 05:08 PM

Irrespective of any arguments, it is absurd that macs don't have the basic features that drive the computing industry. I shouldn't have to buy and external mouse - I should have a scroll pad. Why should a 900.00 piece of junk Windows laptop (todays model) come better equiped then the 3,800.00 Powerbook that I am using at home?

Apple clings to what has gotten it this far - the perception of syle and uniqeness and history. To change to something more functional would go against what they think they stand for and that is just sad.

To clutter up the facade of the Powerbook would be atrocious. I do graphics design and there's a thing known as negative space (nothingless) that is much needed.

In any case, I must agree with iCruise that it is your attitude that is offending people, not your opinion.

Who are you to decide that everyone must agree that a second button must be needed on a laptop? Perhaps some of us see no functional difference between using a right mouse button vs control-clicking. Perhaps some of us even want to maintain the sleek look of the powerbook for a feature that doesn't have a significant enough impact for them. How are you deciding for us what OUR metric is for a perfect laptop?

Difference of opinion, man... difference of opinion. I guess a better way of putting in your thoughts would be "Hey this laptop is pretty cool but I do miss the scrollwheel, etc,." instead of "Why the hell did Apple not put it in?"

You see, you make it sound like Apple is dumb and moronic not to put all these features you wanted, but in actual fact Apple is just catering for a certain type of people with their specific needs and want. And since this is a market economy... you can always buy whatever you feel fits your personality most.

iDaver · Mar 30, 2003, 05:02 PM

Good point, Xtraz. The dual button arguement has been going on and on and on in various forums.

Having rarely used a windoze PC, I see no need for a second button, either on a mouse or trackpad. I suppose for those with only one hand, it might be convenient. For anyone to argue that Apple is crazy not to include a second button and scroll wheel on their computers is simply a matter of opinion.

ghost_flash · Mar 30, 2003, 05:17 PM

I priced a machine comperable in features to the 17"

blue tooth, DVD-R, HD, RAM, WiFi, etc... but 14.1" screen, 1.6 ghz... Warranty...

Tecra = $4,309.00

17" = $3,500.00

I don't see any computer (PC) being priced below the 17" when you add the features up.
I cannot find any PC that will be cheaper than the 17" with all the same features, or similar. Sorry but having a scroll-pad isn't worth it.

icruise · Mar 30, 2003, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by iDaver:
Having rarely used a windoze PC, I see no need for a second button, either on a mouse or trackpad. I suppose for those with only one hand, it might be convenient.

Yes, I'm tired of Apple ignoring the one-handed minority...

I knew a windows user a while back who I helped set up a powerbook for (he had to use some Mac-only software, if you can believe it...) He just couldn't seem to physically handle the concept of clicking while holding the option button. It was something to see. Some people have been using Windows for so long, they freak out of they can't right click or if they don't see a start menu

For anyone to argue that Apple is crazy not to include a second button and scroll wheel on their computers is simply a matter of opinion.

I agree (as I stated above). I've been thinking about this issue for the last few days, and the only time I really feel the need to right-click (or option click) is in Microsoft office (surprise!). There are occasionally other times in the OS when a right click can come in handy, but I stand by my assertion that the Mac OS isn't built around the concept, and it is a simpler and easier to use OS for it.

In short, as I said, I wouldn't necessarily have a problem if Apple started putting two buttons on its mice, but I would have a problem if they changed the OS so that you had to go around right clicking all of the time to get things done.

xylon · Mar 30, 2003, 07:58 PM

I don't get it. You have all these problems with the PB and you still got one? There are differences between Macs and PC's. If these differences are of such huge consequence, I can't see why you bought a PB. Still, I'm glad you got one and I hope that you give it a chance to prove you wrong.

Originally posted by lothar154:
For me, it is the best on the market for the following reasons.

1. 802.11b/g wireless built in, since well 2 years before any PC

Um..this is flat out wrong. My Sony Vaio VX 88 has wireless built in with the ability to turn it off when there is no signal to conserve its amazing 5 hour batterly life. I have had it for almost a year and it was out several months before I bought it. Hm...

2. 17" screen

Yes, big screen. As a consequence the unit is very big and harder to carry around situate (especialy on an air plane (notice how in the commercial the 17 inch never is put on one of the seat back trays... it doesnt fit that well. Do you really need 17 inches? No, you need 2 mouse buttons.

3. 1ghz = 2ghz PC

Um...no. Pentium 4 is just as powerfull as G4 and it is a matter of perspective. Both processors are suited to handle different types of processes better.

4. 1gb ram, theoretically upgradeable to 2gb of ram, I've checked YES

Theoretically? No. The slots only support 512mb ram. Two slots. You do the math.

5. 60gb hard drive

HP has a thin and light that has 80 GB drive. Go to www.hp.com

6. It is only 1" thin and is easy to carry around, no brick here.

Sony is .77 inches thin. Powerbook wont fit in any traditional note book bag and is not as easy to carry around as other traditional 15 or 16 inch laptops.

7. OSX and soon to come PANTHER

Ok. Wish I was overly impressed here but I am not. OSX is a giant improvement over the 9xx series but it is not as stable as Unix.

8. I can leave it in sleep mode ALWAYS! no heat, no power loss... well, ok 1% per hour on sleep mode battery only, and eternity plugged in. INSTANT ON BABY! Try that WINDOWS.

Ohh K. This is a nice feaure there is heat and powerloss. My Sony comes out of sleep in less then 2 seconds. I really don't need it faster than that.

9. Oh, I use XP on it as well but only for logging into my school's VPN at this point... that is it.

Good to know, I guess...?

10. DVDR/CDRW Drive burns at 16x(CDR)

Yeah, IBM thinkpad and HP have a DVD/RW. The CD writing is slow and the DVD wriiting is as slow as it gets at 1X speed in the Apple. No one points this out.

11. Firewire 800!!! and Firewire 400 (Still 2x of USB 2)

My sony has firewire and 2 USB.

12. DVI

WHoptie doo. You have to buy an adapter for the VGA standard which is used everywhere. Hardly anyone is using DVI yet.

13. It looks cool, and the keyboard lights up with changes in the AMBIENT LIGHT... very impressive.

Yes, nice feature.

14. The keyboard is superb! I love it and I type all the time.

No it really isn't. It's average at best. Go to www.cnet.com read the review.

15. The speakers are fantastic!

Again, no they are not. Read the review at cnet.com. As opposed to other sub standard apple speakers in prior models they are an improvement but PC speakers I have heard sound much better.

16. I don't really need all those buttons, because I have programmed my function keys to do all I need, and oh yes it does support two button mice...The one button mouse is a great tradition for APPLE because it is supremely KID FRIENDLY, you don't have to use them.

Yes, kid friendly. Unfortunately, I am not a "kid" and I don't anticipate my child playing with my $3800.00 laptop any time soon. This reasoning is really rediculous. Apple has no excuse for one button - none whatsoever other then wanting to be different. Program the keys, use the arrow keys...etc. Just excuses for poor design. Why should I have to do that when it is so easy in PC laptops? If Apple wants to be better they shouldnt make it harder for you to do something you were doing on a pc effortlessly.

17. I paid only $3,200 for mine, you got ripped off, FREE 512mb ram.

Um..no I didn't. Mine has the air port/air card, 1 GB Ram, $200.00 laptop Bag, Office 2003, Virtual PC and other software not included normally.

18. I have to say it again. 17" of computer monitor lovin!

I have to say again, not necessisary - bigger moniter less precious battery time (I'd rather have a 15 or 16 inch and get more battery life)

19. SCROLLING PAD? try the arrow keys.... they are programmable too.
You can scroll to a point or down a page, or use that scroll wheel on the two button mouse you should have bought.

Why should I have to program anything? Why should I have to buy and external mouse to make up for poor apple design. This thing costs an arm and a leg. I shouldn't have to buy a damn mouse.

20. It isn't a piece of plastic crap, like the HP/COMPAQ laptops.
I sold my old one at a loss and was pleased with the deal.
Good riddance.

Plastic crap? See all powerbooks prior to 2000. LOL My HP is still rolling at 5 years (my children use it). Can't say the same for the g3 that is dead in my friends garage.

Enjoy your pc, I wish you luck, and hope you didn't crash in the process of reading this post.

2 years and still haven't crashed. Again see all versions of Apple OS prior to Os 9XX

LOL.

:O)

mbryda · Mar 30, 2003, 10:58 PM

Originally posted by lothar154:
For those looking for PC laptops with DVD drives and claim HP and Compaq nor Dell or IBM make them, look harder. I am typing this on an HP Ze series with build in DVD/RW. If you go to HP or Compaq's website you can customize their laptops - i.e. you need to hit customize and then you can add a whole slew of features. Same with Dell and IBM.

Thank you. Looked at the HP. Although, I can tell you from experience that IBM does _NOT_ have a DVDR model (or I'd be checking that box for the next batch of latops I order for the day job.

find that laughable. As far as I am concerned the world of computing needs a regime change (across the board). Mac is a dying regime - Sadaam Hussein anyone...

I'd suggest you replace the dying regime BS with Microsoft. After all, the industry is due for its next big change. Remember Novell and Word Perfect? It's about due for a switch over from MS.

If it so much better, why don't we all on Macs?

Why doesn't everyone own Lamborghinis, Porsches, Mercedes' and BMW's? After all, those are regarded as some of the best in their class...

even realize your own hypocrisy. Mac's are profoundly more expensive then PC laptops, as a result

A couple hundred $$ of a $3k purchase is not profoundly more expensive (~10%)...

Amorya · Mar 31, 2003, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by jamez bond:
WTF!
This is a bit rubish, really...Can't people see the value of a second button on the trackpad?

I would hate a second button on the trackpad.

So much so that I would look for another laptop if that was possible. If all Macs came with two buttons, I'd beg for a software hack or rip out the buttons and replace them with a single one myself.

Granted, it's not as un-ergonomic as a multi button mouse, but it still would force my hands into unnatural positions when working. I usually click with my right thumb, which is usually dead centre of the trackpad button. What's going to happen with two buttons? I'm going to most probably hit them both at once (meaning even with a software hack it'd register as two clicks), or I'd have to twist my hand into unnatural positions.

It may not be a big deal for some, but for me it is.

Also, don't forget the fact that the Mac OS (and all apps that follow Apple's interface guidelines) can be used entirely without ever using a contextual menu. Now, occasionally it doesn't work that way (show package contents, anyone?) but such flaws are exceptions, not the rule. If you're a laptop user (and therefore your hands are always at the keyboard anyway), try getting used to the keyboard shortcuts. Command-V for paste instead of right click then click paste. Command-click to open a link in new window. Command-option-click to open the new window behind the current one. Stuff like that. I find it faster to use than the PCs at college.

Amorya

Amorya · Mar 31, 2003, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by lothar154:
Again, your facts are all wrong. God, please read and educate yourself before making claims.

There are at least 4 PC laptops with internal DVD RW (almost all have the option of DVD R (which only reads DVD)).

I think you're confusing DVD-R with a combo drive.

Combo drives read DVDs and read and write CDs. All Macs have at least this.

DVD-R is DVD Recordable. It'll write DVDs but not erase them.

DVD-RW will let you erase DVDs and use them again, like CDRW does for CDs.

Amorya

Troll · Mar 31, 2003, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by lothar154:
Its a matter of perspective. Using both Mac and PC for many years my take on it is that Macs are userfriendly for those that have never run on PC and for those switching from PC it is frustrating.

No it's not, it's empirical. I've consistently found that people understand the intuitiveness of a Mac better than that of a PC. It might not make sense to you, but it certainly makes sense to a lot of people.

I've tried this with a number of friends and you can do the same thing. Take your 17" PowerBook and you Acer, give them to your mother with a digital camera. See how long it takes her to install the drivers on the PC, get the right software installed, get the pics off the camera and make a slide show. Now let her try that with your PowerBook. Guarantee she doesn't succeed at all with the PC and comes right in under an hour on the Mac.

ghost_flash · Mar 31, 2003, 05:09 PM

Originally posted by Troll:
No it's not, it's empirical. I've consistently found that people understand the intuitiveness of a Mac better than that of a PC. It might not make sense to you, but it certainly makes sense to a lot of people.

I've tried this with a number of friends and you can do the same thing. Take your 17" PowerBook and you Acer, give them to your mother with a digital camera. See how long it takes her to install the drivers on the PC, get the right software installed, get the pics off the camera and make a slide show. Now let her try that with your PowerBook. Guarantee she doesn't succeed at all with the PC and comes right in under an hour on the Mac.

You had me at hello, err I mean when you stated it really doesn't matter if you are a pc user coming to the mac or a new person coming to a mac it is empirical.

Then you proved yourself wrong....

Take a new person to computers, and place them in a new learning situation with each platform. The mac was easy, and the PC near imposible within a reasonable amount of time.

The truth is: Macs are easier to "get", and it doesn't matter if they are being used by a switcher or a new user.

Myself am coming from a PC history of many years and will advance to poweruser status on the Mac in short time, but found it a bit getting used to as I am a TWO-BUTTON mouser etc... but this was to be expected. I now have full command over the keyboard shortcuts, as well as the method behind the design. I find that it would be almost painful to go back to using a PC and Windows full-time, as the contextual menu usage, and the sloppyness of the User Interface.
Not to mention, XP has crashed on my MAC (VPC 6.0 XP) a few times already in two weeks!~

Bottom Line:

Mac is intuitive and the PC using Windows is NOT.
Those who would bash the Mac Platform, stating it is written for children should understand the ergonomics and usibility of the things they take for granted.

1. TELEVISION > Even a child can use it...
2. Telephone > Even a child can use one...
3. VCR > only children can programm them... :O)
4. Stereos > Yes, my mother can set one up...

Society embraces technology when it is as easy to use as a TELEPHONE.
Pick it up and use it.
How much would it suck if you had to dial 25 digits to dial a number?
Or wait for it to load the OS, or if it CRASHED all the time.

Try that with a TV, etc...
Only Microsoft can get away with it.

The mac IS the superior platform and they are on the right track to making the computer more USER friendly.

I just want to turn it on, have it work, and get my stuff done!

MIS Departments owe their livelyhood to Microcrap and PATCHES constantly.... Network administrators perpetuate the crime of MS.
Inflicting pain upon all users in every office.

It's unfortunate that people believe the following line of BS:

Macs are for schools and artists, and
PC's are for business.

This could explain a great many problems with BIG BUSINESS BTW.

Pc's are dirt cheap, it's the software that is expensive.
Mac's are not cheap but they come LOADED with great useful software, and hardware that is extra on PC's.

The bean counters for large business view that as a negative for some reason. It's easier to justify buying 2,000 cheap pc's then upgrading the software every QUARTER.... get it?

Life sucks
You figure it out hopefully
Then buy a MAC.