[rezonate]

Ah, once again Israel displaying their uncanny ability to show no regard for human life, basic international laws, and the right to do as they please without so much as a slap to them. State sponsored terrorism at its best here.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3821485.stm

Some choice quotes by those who were in the line of fire here:

" One wonders what treatment ordinary Palestinians are given"
Baroness Northover

"Baroness Northover said: "This incident has shown me first-hand the indiscriminate violence faced by Palestinians on a daily basis.

"If the Israeli Defence Force is prepared to shoot at a delegation of parliamentarians under the supervision of the UN, one wonders what treatment ordinary Palestinians are given," she said.

She said the action may have been an attempt to stop the group seeing the effect of Israel's policy of demolishing Palestinian housing in Gaza. "

[lil'babykitten]

Yet another example of the evil and barbaric nature of the Israeli army.

[rezonate]

Definitely. Oh, I'm sure we'll see the Israeli apologists come out with their best shots in defending this. Thing is, the more they try to excuse such behaviour, the more the rest of us see what lengths they will go to in condoning it. That they are basically morally empty.

[Logic]

Does this really come as a surprise to anyone?

[Logic]

And that people don't even care is just sad...........

[Athens]

I personally would like to see Nato lead by Canada with American, Canadian and Australian troops police the west bank. Get the dam Israeli army out of there and end the madness. PS why Nato and no the UN, UN never gets anything done. Look at Bosnia how quick Nato was able to deal with that.

[MacManMikeOSX]

Isn't it quite amazing that when in Iraq Americans shoot down British helicopters it is briefly referred to as a "freindly-fire incident"; and also the US or U.K. Militaries blow up wedding parties in accidental bombings, but after a few days it's brushed off the shoulders . All of this, and yet when my people, the Jews who are involved wit terrorist in our ancestral homeland, fight to defend them selves and slip up (there are bound to be accidents of course you cannot stick 18-21 year olds out there without expecting them), we are ridiculed called animals, nazis and other truly terrible things. Well, all of you terrorist sympathizers (not arabs, but terrorists most arabs are very hospitable and who will help achieve peace though study and diplomacy), imagine this you're in a N.Y. nightclub and suddenly there is an explosion; after the explosion Iraqi terrorists take credit for the attack. I believe you would agree that though you sympathize with there cause they are using truly the wrong means to forward themselves, and also that you are not responsible for all your governments actions. That was a bit off topic, but I needed to state my views clearly. This incident was obviously a friendly fire accident, or a case of mistaken identity (terrorists are known to disguise themselves in I.D.F. uniforms). I would also like to point out that if one solider rapes a Korean girl none hold the U.S. government accountable for such atrocious acts, also we must take this outlook if this is just some kids idea of a cruel joke.

I'd also like to add that Israel is not Bosnia there are ethnic clashes but not genocide every time there has been claimed genocide a few weeks later the UN clears that there was no such actions, which is long after the media has moved on and somehow omits these details in later stories.

--Mike

[Athens]

Originally posted by MacManMikeOSX:
Isn't it quite amazing that when in Iraq Americans shoot down British helicopters it is briefly referred to as a "freindly-fire incident"; and also the US or U.K. Militaries blow up wedding parties in accidental bombings, but after a few days it's brushed off the shoulders . All of this, and yet when my people, the Jews who are involved wit terrorist in our ancestral homeland, fight to defend them selves and slip up (there are bound to be accidents of course you cannot stick 18-21 year olds out there without expecting them), we are ridiculed called animals, nazis and other truly terrible things. Well, all of you terrorist sympathizers (not arabs, but terrorists most arabs are very hospitable and who will help achieve peace though study and diplomacy), imagine this you're in a N.Y. nightclub and suddenly there is an explosion; after the explosion Iraqi terrorists take credit for the attack. I believe you would agree that though you sympathize with there cause they are using truly the wrong means to forward themselves, and also that you are not responsible for all your governments actions. That was a bit off topic, but I needed to state my views clearly. This incident was obviously a friendly fire accident, or a case of mistaken identity (terrorists are known to disguise themselves in I.D.F. uniforms). I would also like to point out that if one solider rapes a Korean girl none hold the U.S. government accountable for such atrocious acts, also we must take this outlook if this is just some kids idea of a cruel joke.

I'd also like to add that Israel is not Bosnia there are ethnic clashes but not genocide every time there has been claimed genocide a few weeks later the UN clears that there was no such actions, which is long after the media has moved on and somehow omits these details in later stories.

--Mike

It takes 2 sides to make a war, each side is equally guilty and responsible. The cultural difference between Israel and Palestine can almost be compared to the Cultural difference between Queb�c and the rest of Canada. If Canada started telling Quebecers what to do and was to uterlaterly start taking land, demolishing Francophone homes and stuff like that I guarantee there would be bombs blowing up in Toronto in protest and then there would be Troops in Montreal doing the same things Israel is doing. The point is this problem Israel faces is there own fault, and there as much to blame as the palatines. Perhaps is Israel would pull out there troops, stop demolishing homes, stops settling into Palestine land things would be a bit different. But as a Israeli I doubt you can accept that.

[itai195]

Not sure what to make of this. I wouldn't mind hearing more details, as the other sources around the 'net don't indicate if they know for sure if it was Israeli or Palestinian gunfire. But if it was Israeli gunfire, I hope there's either a damn good reason or those soldiers are brought to justice.

The point is this problem Israel faces is there own fault, and there as much to blame as the palatines. Perhaps is Israel would pull out there troops, stop demolishing homes, stops settling into Palestine land things would be a bit different.

Well that's the root of the problem, isn't it. You make two contradictory statements -- both parties are to blame, but if only Israel would do a, b, and c then, naturally, the Palestinians would stop. A lot of people don't see it that way. I could make the exact same statement about the Palestinians -- if only they'd stop terrorizing the Israeli population, then naturally Israel would stop its transgressions. But I'm sure Logic and LBK would disagree with that, and in fact [correctly] argue that doing so would probably only embolden Israel to redouble its settlement efforts.

[Logic]

Originally posted by itai195:
:Well that's the root of the problem, isn't it. You make two contradictory statements -- both parties are to blame, but if only Israel would do a, b, and c then, naturally, the Palestinians would stop. A lot of people don't see it that way. I could make the exact same statement about the Palestinians -- if only they'd stop terrorizing the Israeli population, then naturally Israel would stop its transgressions. But I'm sure Logic and LBK would disagree with that, and in fact [correctly] argue that doing so would probably only embolden Israel to redouble its settlement efforts.

Correct

Both sides need to stop for there to be any peace. If Israel would stop the things I've mentioned often before I would expect the Palestinians to stop as well. If they(the Palestinians) wouldn't they would lose my support.

[Athens]

Originally posted by itai195:


Not sure what to make of this. I wouldn't mind hearing more details, as the other sources around the 'net don't indicate if they know for sure if it was Israeli or Palestinian gunfire. But if it was Israeli gunfire, I hope there's either a damn good reason or those soldiers are brought to justice.

Well that's the root of the problem, isn't it. You make two contradictory statements -- both parties are to blame, but if only Israel would do a, b, and c then, naturally, the Palestinians would stop. A lot of people don't see it that way. I could make the exact same statement about the Palestinians -- if only they'd stop terrorizing the Israeli population, then naturally Israel would stop its transgressions. But I'm sure Logic and LBK would disagree with that, and in fact [correctly] argue that doing so would probably only embolden Israel to redouble its settlement efforts.

If Israel did A, B and C, the Palestinians wouldn't stop, would prob slow down but there will always be those after blood for a another generation. What it will do is give reason for Palestinians to start working with Israel to bring peace. How can there be any peace as long as there is aggression from Israel. After all its Israel invading, building settlements, and bulldoze homes.

[PacHead]

As has been said a million times before. . . . .

(A) If the Palestinian terrorists laid down their weapons, there would be peace.
(B) If Israel lays down its weapons, there would be no Israel.

Anybody who does not believe that is totally ignorant of the history of the region since the creation of the state of Israel.

The Palestinian terrorists are like some rude, aggresive bum that you punch out in a bar fight. The only difference is they keep standing up and asking for more, even though theyve been beaten. So you punch them again. They get up again. etc. etc. Blame it on stupidity.

Israel has a definite right to defend itself against the hostile aggressers, regardless of what some historically anti-semitic European countries might think or anybody else for that matter.

The terrorists should just throw in the towel. There is not a chance in hell that they will ever realize their goals, and Israel should just keep killing them until they change their minds or there are no more terrorists left, whichever comes first.

[Atomic Rooster]

"I thought 'they're trying to kill us'," she told BBC News Online.

Me thinks if this was the case she wouldn't be around to make that comment.

[Athens]

"Israel has a definite right to defend itself against the hostile aggressers,"

Then maybe Israel should start defending itself and stop attacking and being the aggresser eh?

[PacHead]

Originally posted by Athens:
"Israel has a definite right to defend itself against the hostile aggressers,"

Then maybe Israel should start defending itself and stop attacking and being the aggresser eh?

Who attacked who first ? And whos been continuing to wage war against Israel for the past 6 decades ?

As a matter of fact, Israel has given up vast territories (which they acquired in various defensive wars) to Egypt as a part of their peace agreement. This doesnt sound like an aggressor to me.

If Israel was the aggressor, the Palestinians would have been wiped out ages ago, wouldnt take more than a short time to accomplish this.

The only aggressors are the silly palestinian terrorists who keep calling for the destruction of Israel. The only destruction that is likely to happen is their own.

[Athens]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Who attacked who first ? And whos been continuing to wage war against Israel for the past 6 decades ?

As a matter of fact, Israel has given up vast territories (which they acquired in various defensive wars) to Egypt as a part of their peace agreement. This doesnt sound like an aggressor to me.

If Israel was the aggressor, the Palestinians would have been wiped out ages ago, wouldnt take more than a short time to accomplish this.

The only aggressors are the silly palestinian terrorists who keep calling for the destruction of Israel. The only destruction that is likely to happen is their own.

Again im going to have to say screw the past, who cares about who started what, its all about the now, the current. Who is demolishing homes? Who is shooting children from Armored Tanks? Who is seizing land? Who is colonizing whose territory? Who is shooting cars with missiles from Helicopters. Who�s troops are occupying whose territory? I think the only thing I see the Palestinians doing is throwing rocks at Israeli troops in there own land and blowing themeless up as bombs to hit there enemy.

So define a defensive role please and point out where occupation is apart of it.

[Taliesin]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Who attacked who first ? And whos been continuing to wage war against Israel for the past 6 decades ?

As a matter of fact, Israel has given up vast territories (which they acquired in various defensive wars) to Egypt as a part of their peace agreement. This doesnt sound like an aggressor to me.

If Israel was the aggressor, the Palestinians would have been wiped out ages ago, wouldnt take more than a short time to accomplish this.

The only aggressors are the silly palestinian terrorists who keep calling for the destruction of Israel. The only destruction that is likely to happen is their own.

To answer your questions: Israel attacked first, well actually the jewish organizations that worked hard to create Israel attacked first, with the support of the USA.
The USA supported the creation of Israel as it wanted an independent military- and secret-agency-base in the region for the case that all arabic neo-colonies free themselves from the dictatorships the US installed or for the case that these local governors change their mind, and the US would have to intervene either with its paramilitary units or with assassins of the CIA or with the regular army if necessary.
Up until today it wasn't necessary because most local governors are still in power and still work in the interest of the US.

The US-neo-colonies organized in the arabic league couldn't stop the creation of Israel because the US didn't allow them to, all the wars between Israel and the arabic league were "let's do as if wars" of which the consequences were previously negotiated between the US, Israel and the arabic neo-colonies. Why then these wars in the first place, if the consequences were negotiated(these wars costed quite a few lifes, most of them palestinian's lifes, but also soldiers from the arabic states lost their lifes)?
The answer lies in the arabic mass-populations that are oppressed by the US-installed dictatorships, that would revolt and topple these dictatorships if they wouldn't try to stop the expansion of Israel.

All the arabic rhetorics that the arabic dictators give out in their speeches against Israel and all the wars that Israel started, and the war that the arabic league started in 72/73 only served to allow for Israel's expansions (the timing for these wars except the one of 72/73 had to do with the immigration-waves reached Israel, that allowed Israel to annex more and more of "Eretz Israel"), and at the same time to cool down the "arabic street", to assure them that the arabic league is doing what it can.

Basically the arabic neo-colonies have betrayed the palestinians and left them in vain, and have sold their future in political deals with the US and Israel.

To calm down their bad conscience these arabic leaders and their families support the palestinian resistance against Israel by donating money to them..

The resistance against Israel among the palestinians is one of the best resistance-movements I have seen in history. They were able to withstand israelic occupation for 37 years, eventhough Israel has established a collaboration-network, they developed a guerillia-war-tactic against the highly superior israelic army, and also were able to conduct retaliation-operations in Israel for the civilians Israel has killed, though they were not successful to retaliate for more than a fifth of the civilians Israel has killed.

The guerillia-war-tactics as well as the retaliation-operations against Israelis, have shown to the israelic public what price they have to pay for the killing of palestinians as well as for the expropriations and oppression, and have led to the wish of the israelic public for a peace with the palestinians, though their elected leaders always try to find a way to somehow circumvent and sabotage a genuine peace-agreement with the palestinians, by offering peace under terms unacceptable for the palestinians, and by conducting military operations with the intent to provoke retaliation-operations from the palestinians..

If the palestinians had not developed an armed resistance Israel and the israelic public would have never seen any reason to make peace with the palestinians, they would just have shoved them aside and do whatever Israel wants with the occupied areas, basically annexing the fruitful areas, where the water-sources are located and keeping the palestinians out in the desert-areas.

Wait, isn't that what Sharon is trying to do right now? Isn't he trying to annex the fruitful parts of westbank and leaving the dry deserts to the palestinians in Gaza and Westbank. How could that be, considering that there is still armed resistance?

Well, Israel builds that famous wall, off course with substantial expropriations and driving out of palestinians, which should protect Israel from the armed resistance, and protect the israelic public from the retaliation-operations, thus rendering the armed resistance of the palestinians nearly useless, so that Israel can again do what it wants much like in the fifties..

The future will show if the strategy of Sharon will play out in the manner he thinks of it, or if that strategy will spark new developments he couldn't foresee..

Taliesin

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by itai195:
Well that's the root of the problem, isn't it. You make two contradictory statements -- both parties are to blame, but if only Israel would do a, b, and c then, naturally, the Palestinians would stop. A lot of people don't see it that way. I could make the exact same statement about the Palestinians -- if only they'd stop terrorizing the Israeli population, then naturally Israel would stop its transgressions. But I'm sure Logic and LBK would disagree with that, and in fact [correctly] argue that doing so would probably only embolden Israel to redouble its settlement efforts.

Yup, pretty much. That's because I see Israel as the initiator of the problem in the first place. Israel arrived on a land that was not hers and forced the Palestinians out. That's where the first intifada originated from. It was a people resisting an illegal occupation of their land. It was an obvious consequence. The fight for independence will not end until a Palestinian state is declared.

However, I do think that the longer this conflict goes on, the more difficult it will be to reach any sort of conclusion. The extremists on both sides will only increase their demands so that any potential conflict resolution will *never* be acceptable to them. That's what will happen if the extremists on both sides continue to be the primary deciders on what happens next.

[Zimphire]

A source said it was unclear whether shots had been fired, and if so by whom.

He said the exchange of fire between both sides was "commonplace" in the area and had not necessarily come from Israeli forces.

[itai195]

Originally posted by Athens:
If Israel did A, B and C, the Palestinians wouldn't stop, would prob slow down but there will always be those after blood for a another generation. What it will do is give reason for Palestinians to start working with Israel to bring peace. How can there be any peace as long as there is aggression from Israel. After all its Israel invading, building settlements, and bulldoze homes.

Sure, but the problem is that the Israelis see things the exact opposite of that. How can there be any peace as long as there is aggression from the Palestinians? No state should be forced to make peace while an enemy continues to attack its population. It seems to me that both sides will have to stop, or slow, at the same time... otherwise we'd be counting on a measure of trust that simply doesn't exist today. An interesting development is that Hamas wants to take part in the administration of Gaza after the Isareli pullout, but they say their attacks will not stop.

[Athens]

Originally posted by itai195:
Sure, but the problem is that the Israelis see things the exact opposite of that. How can there be any peace as long as there is aggression from the Palestinians? No state should be forced to make peace while an enemy continues to attack its population. It seems to me that both sides will have to stop, or slow, at the same time... otherwise we'd be counting on a measure of trust that simply doesn't exist today. An interesting development is that Hamas wants to take part in the administration of Gaza after the Isareli pullout, but they say their attacks will not stop.

Then Israel should DEFEND at the boarder, not go invading, destroying homes and setting up settlements.

[AKcrab]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
The fight for independence will not end until a Palestinian state is declared.

You really think so?
http://www.hamasonline.com/indexx.ph.../hamas_profile

Hamas was formed in 1987 with the objective of destroying the Zionist entity that occupies Palestine, and establishing Palestine from the sea to the river based on Islamic principles.

As I read that statement from the Hamas site and look at a map, that would mean no more Israel, correct?

[itai195]

Originally posted by Athens:
Then Israel should DEFEND at the boarder, not go invading, destroying homes and setting up settlements.

I agree, that's definitely something they can do unilaterally.

[Dr.HermanG.]

Originally posted by PacHead:

(A) If the Palestinian terrorists laid down their weapons, there would be peace.

If they did that then there would be no more Palestinians. The fact that they have weapons is the only think keeping the Israelis from exterminating every last one of them.

[Athens]

Originally posted by Dr.HermanG.:
If they did that then there would be no more Palestinians. The fact that they have weapons is the only think keeping the Israelis from exterminating every last one of them.

I don't know they currently are already out gunned, example Rocks vs Machine Guns, Machine Guns vs Tanks, cars vs helicopters. Look at most of the victums, they only have rocks.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by Dr.HermanG.:
If they did that then there would be no more Palestinians. The fact that they have weapons is the only think keeping the Israelis from exterminating every last one of them.

That's sadly the bottom line.

When terrorism becomes your last line of defense.


I've always been a fan of international intervention. If Iraq was 'justified'... this one surely is.

Remove both regimes, and it's a done deal. That's the only way this will end. They must be removed, and either jailed, or executed so they can't get back in power.

Until then, it's just the march of the hitler clones.


While the people suffer.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by MacManMikeOSX:

I'd also like to add that Israel is not Bosnia there are ethnic clashes but not genocide every time there has been claimed genocide a few weeks later the UN clears that there was no such actions, which is long after the media has moved on and somehow omits these details in later stories.

--Mike

Um...

The UN said in agreement with the rest of the world, there wasn't any evidence because they wre barred from entering until the Israeli military finished their operation (which for some reason involved strings of trucks, as satelites showed).

If we demolish a nazi concentration camp... does that undo the holocaust? I'd think not.