[mikerally]

I have been to the keynote today, I went to Apple Expo, and after queing for one hour, bought Mac OS X PB.

Suffice to say, it is now installed and running on my Rev/A iBook with 96MB of RAM installed (YES 96MB, not 128MB!).

First comment is that I am very pleased with it and it's performance.

I invite you all now to put forward questions about Mac OS X PB, as I will be able to answer some.

And, yes, this message is being posted from my iBook running Mac OS X PB, in Paris.

Also, when Steve Jobs says, the Powerbook wakes from sleep in ONE second, IT DOES - it wakes in one second on my iBook all the time!!!

Does it really come with PPPoE?

How much faster than DP4?

Is it as cool as I'm hoping?

Mr.F

How much free HD space does it require to install/take up after installation?

Can you launch apps in classic with 96 mgs of RAM? That's what I have in my iMac and I would rather wait to buy more. How fast is it compared to Os 9?

How big is the installed footprint? Did you install it over Os 9 or on its own partition? Have you tried to run Os 9 on its own to see if it messed that up.

I also assume you are using IE 5.5 which came with it? How was that to set up to get access to the internet?

Thanks

Printing is a big deal for most mac users, have you heard anything about OSXPB being functional with a usb printer, ie stylus 740?

[ntsc]

If it owrks with 96MB do you think it would work with only 64MB. I'm upgrading to 320MB of RAM soon but I must get the funds together. But I want to take Mac OS X for a test drive.

God knows - it has been long enough comming.

[Scott_H]

Did you install OS X over OS 9? If so how does the dual boot, two OSes one partition, work out?

What Applications have you run in classic? Palm Desktop? Printers? (Drag your printer along ) Zip Disk RW Format?

What have you heard about Carbons for OS X. I was expectiong third parites to come out of the NDA closet and support OS X. Do I hear crickets?

Did you get wet?

[dark3lf]

I'm aware that you can't boot the beta from an IDE slave drive but if you're already in the beta, can it even mount the slave drive?

[reidspice]

i'm curious about usb support (or lack thereof). have you been able to hotsync a palm? download images from a digital camera?

i can't wait for kensington to release some software so that my right-click button on my trackball will work...

[MadBrowser]

Okay... Here are my questions:

In DP4 Classic apps all had issues with focus (you'd launch a classic app and it wouldn't be in the foreground automatically sometimes).

Also, the mouse was WAY too slow under DP4. Has this been fixed?

Besides that, I'm looking forward to all the JVM fixes so I can finally do my JSP/servlet development on it full time with JBuilder.

wooo ! jsp! me too. what jsp server are you going to use?

[rwitham]

Is it really true that you have to have OS9 installed also. I hate to think that I have to buy OS9 on top of buying the beta only to have to trash the whole thing when the final release of OSX is out. Or do you have to have OS9 with that also. Somehow I had the impression that it all came as one package. I'm sure that I'm not the only person who thought that....hmmmm? Of course that did not stop me from ordering the beta anyways. Macs Forever!!

This has been asked and asked again, but I have yet to hear an answer: I have a Rev B iMac (with a Rage Pro card) and 96 megs RAM and MacOS 8.6. Will the PB work for me? I hope I hope I hope...

I need help with my OSX Beta.
It's installed and running OK, but I can't get my ADSL set up working.
I have an Ethernet Modem from Wanadoo/Nettissimo/France Telecom in Paris. Under 9.0.4 I use software called TunnelBuilder to open my connection, but this does not work under OSX. Also I have tried seting up OSX to access the netwok via the modem but no joy.

If I change back to OS 9, I also find that the hard disk gets repaired every time I return, and that I need to switch the modem off and on again to reset it.

I have to say, OSX looks good, but I don't find it much use, as there are no application I can use without ADSL access. And the Classic environment has a few odd things as well, if apps work at all. Maybe I will regret this !!!!

[MadBrowser]

For a JSP/Servlet container I will be using Apache Tomcat (jakarta.apache.org) and Ant as the build tool. That's the same stuff I'm using in deployment so it works out well (and it's the reference implemenation for the Servelet 2.2 spec)

cool. you should send the guy over a macsql.com an email. i am trying to get him to host a messageboard to help people get jsp up and running on mac os x pb

[MadBrowser]

I didn't have any problems getting the stock Tomcat up on DP4... It's totally Java2 code. No native calls (except the Apache connector).

I've heard OSX (DP4) runs on G3 upgraded Macs, but is not supported if there is a problem. For me this is OK.

Now I see the public beta doc sez:

Mac OS X does not support the original PowerBook G3
or upgraded PowerPC processors.

I have a G3 upgraded 8500. What are my chances with PB? Can I at least get it to install?

[dankae]

Well, some answers to the questions:

1. Mouse speed is fabulous!
2. It seems as fast as DP4
3. No Dev tools
4. A lot of the Admin Tools are not there. For multiple users there is no real user config, just create or delete, and there is a checkbox for system administration. This does not put you into Root status, so you cant really modify your OSX drive (I tried to copy a System Folder with OS9 onto my OSX drive, and couldnt do it as long as I wasnt root)
5. I had strange problems with keyboard settings, again. Funnily only in the first panel of the internet config. At first it didnt use the german layout, then there was no @ symbol, until I found it at option-L
6. The version of IE is still quite buggy.
7. Somehow logging out doesnt work as fast as on DP4
8. There is no sleep feature on my G4/AGP

[mikerally]

"Does it really come with PPPoE?"

Yes it does.

"How much free HD space does it require to install/take up after installation?"

It takes around 800MB, and needs about 1.5GB HD space of elbow room to unpack.

"Can you launch apps in classic with 96 mgs of RAM?"

Yes, you can.

"Did you install it over Os 9 or on its own partition?"

I installed it over Mac OS 9.

For your information, if you do this, the old System Folder kept aside for use with the Classic Environment.

"I also assume you are using IE 5.5 which came with it? How was that to set up to get access to the internet?"

It's IE 5.0 actually. You configure it for use with the Internet using the Mac OS X equivilent to the Control Panels, just as you would with OS 9.

If you want, you can use the setup assistant to help you.

"If it owrks with 96MB do you think it would work with only 64MB. I'm upgrading to 320MB of RAM soon but I must get the funds together. But I want to take Mac OS X for a test drive."

I haven't tried it, but I believe it should be possible. Mac OS X didn't check how much RAM I had when installing, even if there isn't enough, I'm sure the virtual memory system can take care of it.

"God knows - it has been long enough comming."

It has been worth the wait.

"What Applications have you run in classic?"

Adobe Photoshop 5.0, and Simpletext. They ran fine.

"i'm curious about usb support (or lack thereof). have you been able to hotsync a palm? download images from a digital camera?"

There is a bonus program called ImageCapture that ships with the PB.
It will allow you to import images from a digital camera.

"In DP4 Classic apps all had issues with focus (you'd launch a classic app and it wouldn't be in the foreground automatically sometimes)."

I'm afraid that still happens.

"Also, the mouse was WAY too slow under DP4. Has this been fixed?"

The mouse is perfectly fine on my system.


"Is it really true that you have to have OS9 installed also."

Only if you want classic support.
No Mac OS 9 = No classic support.
So if you want classic support in Mac OS X, then you will have to own Mac OS 9 aswell.

"This has been asked and asked again, but I have yet to hear an answer: I have a Rev B iMac (with a Rage Pro card) and 96 megs RAM and MacOS 8.6. Will the PB work for me? I hope I hope I hope.."

Yes it will, but unless you buy Mac OS 9, you will have no classic support.

"I have a G3 upgraded 8500. What are my chances with PB? Can I at least get it to install?"

I'd say it was worth giving a try.

"A lot of the Admin Tools are not there"

For those who are concerned, the Terminal Command line prompt is there.

"The version of IE is still quite buggy."

Works perfect on my system.

"There is no sleep feature on my G4/AGP"

Sleep is available on my iBook, aswell as a cute battery monitor that sits in the dock :-D

[MAlan]

Mikerally,

will you get any discount on the final release of X when it comes out since you bought the beta or are you going to have to pay full price for the final release.

[mikerally]

"will you get any discount on the final release of X when it comes out since you bought the beta or are you going to have to pay full price for the final release"

It hasn't been mentioned, so I don't know.

I do know it is scheduled to expire May 15th 2001, so I will have to upgrade by then.

I suspected it was only IE 5.0 when the Apple site mentioned "Internet Explorer" as shipping with it (they'd be screaming it if it was a new version), and it seems to now have been confirmed. Looks like they didn't deliver on the 5.5 promise, unless some else has contradictory evidence...........? Sometimes I wish Apple would just admit that they're wrong, instead of simply not mentioning the screw-up (and leading users to believe false information). Ah well, that's my spiel until I get my hands on the thing.........:-)

greg

[fmalloy]

Mike,

I also have a RevA iBook with 96MB RAM, and was concerned about the 128MB minimum recommendation. Is there really enough RAM to run multiple apps simultaneously? Is it smooth or does it thrash the disk swapping data around?

Also, it supposedly doesn't work with Airport. True? I have Airport and may not install OS X because I use Airport a lot with the iBook.

[gmsmith]

The last build of OS X I saw (an internal Apple build) had IE 5.5b2, maybe they canned that. OmniWeb is nicer anyway

is there an unsupported install option?

mikerally:

How is the mouse-click responsiveness of OS Xb? Is it at least better than OS 9 and hopefully up to par with Windows?

What I mean is, like clicking windows, dragging, resizing, minimizing, scrolling, even mousing over the toolbar buttons in IE, is it a lot more responsive (like it should with PMT)? I know this is the one thing I envy about Windows users and their PMT, they can resize windows in real time and really snappy while OS 9 crawls if you do it.

Originally posted by eVo:
(like it should with PMT)?

You do realize that PMT has the potential to actually make apps SLOWER. Yep, if every app is sharing the cpu and you have many apps/threads running... mite slow things down a bit. The fastest program would be achieved with no interapp multitasking. There actually used to be an extension/prog to quit all but one app (including the finder). This would allow that one app to have all cycles...not as important these days.

[kennedy]

Note that IE 5.0 on Windows is HORRIBLY buggy... almost unworkably so... definitely intolerable.

But IE 5.5 on Windows is solid (well, as solid as anything can be running on top of Windows).

Based on that experience, I sure hope IE 5.5 is available for Mac OS X soon (if not now).

[RodriCO2000]

Mike mentioned about the availability of PPPoE in the PB. CAn someone confirm this??? I have an ADSL connection and have a Router installed ( I dont know why I did it I guess i like to spend money ;-) ) But it would be nice to have PPPoE support in the PB since my Linksys router somehow goes into wild trips ever so often...
Can someone comfirm it???

[Scott_H]

You do realize that PMT has the potential to actually make apps SLOWER

Doubt it. Under CMT an application had to break out of processing by its self from time to time see of the OS had something else to do. So programmers needed to program in breaks into the computations.

Now that slows things down.

Will MacOSX support a Wireless LAN PCMCIA card in the bronze powerbook?

MacMan...

---------------------------------------------

[This message has been edited by MacNN Staff (edited 09-14-2000).]

[mikerally]

Sorry, people, I made a mistake, it is IE 5.5 Beta 2 that ships with Mac OS X, I double checked the about box:

Explorer Version: 5.5b2 (5502)
Encryption: 128 Bit
User Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible;MSIE 5.5b2; Mac_PowerPC)
Machine Type: Unknown
System Version: System 0.0
TCP/IP Software: Open Transport - version 1.3.0
Drag Manager: 68K & PPC Version
Text Encoding Converter: Version 1.6.0
System Memory: Unknown
Explorer Memory: 0K Bytes
Available Memory: 40,960K Bytes

Here's a screenshot: http://www.zoo.co.uk/~z0001169/macosxpb.jpg

[mikerally]

"Printing is a big deal for most mac users, have you heard anything about OSXPB being functional with a usb printer, ie stylus 740?"

The Mac OS X PB comes with a Print Centre. Here's what the manual says about USB Printer support:

If you are using a USB Printer, it's automatically set up for you.

"I also have a RevA iBook with 96MB RAM, and was concerned about the 128MB minimum recommendation. Is there really enough RAM to run multiple apps simultaneously? Is it smooth or does it thrash the disk swapping data around?"

The big surprise is, is yes it will work fine with 96MB of RAM, and yes you can run many apps aswell without any noticeable slowdown, my hard disk isn't stressed either like on my PC with Windows.

"Also, it supposedly doesn't work with Airport. True? I have Airport anday not install OS X because I use Airport a lot with the iBook."

Airport is a big question mark, because I do not have an Airport card in my iBook, the manual does not mention it at all, on top of that it isn't mentioned any of the Preference Panels, so it is doubtful.

[mikerally]

"is there an unsupported install option?"

I'm *guessing* there is. Although I did not see any options for one, I guess you have to hold down the option key or something.

I only went through the installer once, and it was very easy, just a few steps and leave the iBook alone for 20mins while it unpacks the files.

I literally upgraded my system in the space of half an hour.

Installing over Mac OS 9, just makes everything easy, as I do not plan on returning to use it.

Oh yes, Mac OS X PB has not crashed once yet. I have had no system freezes or lock ups. In the amount of time I have been using it, my cousin's PowerMac 6500 has locked up 3-4 times running Mac OS 8.1.

"How is the mouse-click responsiveness of OS Xb? Is it at least better than OS 9 and hopefully up to par with Windows?"

It is very responsive, menus are a bit slow to render the first time you open them.

The Dock is EXTREMELY responsive, it's the most effiecient piece of programming I've ever seen. The Dock always responds, whatever your doing.

"What I mean is, like clicking windows, dragging, resizing, minimizing, scrolling, even mousing over the toolbar buttons in IE, is it a lot more responsive (like it should with PMT)?"

Switching/Minimising/Restoring Windows = FAST

Scrolling = FAST

Mouseover/Toolbar = FAST

Menus = Reasonable

Dock = FAST

Dragging = FAST

Resizing windows = Depending on content, in IE is Reasonable

[mikerally]

"You do realize that PMT has the potential to actually make apps SLOWER. Yep, if every app is sharing the cpu and you have many apps/threads running... mite slow things down a bit. The fastest program would be achieved with no interapp multitasking. There actually used to be an extension/prog to quit all but one app (including the finder). This would allow that one app to have all cycles...not as important these days."

You're right, I think this is why the Quicktime Player runs like **** at the moment.

Quicktime Video performance is horrible under Mac OS X, I had better performance under Mac OS 9.

"Mike mentioned about the availability of PPPoE in the PB. CAn someone confirm this???"

There is a program called PPP Connect included with the PB.

"I have an ADSL connection and have a Router installed ( I dont know why I did it I guess i like to spend money ;-) ) But it would be nice to have PPPoE support in the PB since my Linksys router somehow goes into wild trips ever so often..."

Well, the PB works with my cousin's Cable Modem, which plugs into my iBook's ethernet port. Then I choose to use DHCP from the Network preference panel.

I'll let you know now that there is an Internet Connection Setup Assistant that runs when you first run Mac OS X PB.
It asks you what type of connection you want to make, such as Modem, or Cable Modem, and I guess ADSL aswell.

[mikerally]

"Will MacOSX support a Wireless LAN PCMCIA card in the bronze powerbook?"

Considering I haven't seen any Airport support, the chances seem remote.

Besides it's up to the manufacturer of the card to provide support for the card.

Lets just say that you install os x. Is there a way to install os 9 after you put x on?

[Hiram]

1.5 GB elbow room: does anyone have more specific info? Will the installer refuse to do its job on a slightly smaller partition? I reserved a 1.16 GB partition for OS X to install on, and having to repartition would be somewhat cumbersome. But if I have to do that, I'll do it while the OSXPb is in the mail.

[AJ]

RyOSX:

When you install X, it allows you to duel boot off the partition with OS 9

[parisblue]

I've just bought a iMac DVSE and this is my first experience with System 9. I'm also starting a 6 year old and 8 year old on their first computer. Do you have to know 9 well to get the most out of X or is it worth jumping straight to X as that's what we'll all be using in 12 to 18 month's time?

[gaffa]

In reply to RyOSX.
As far as I am aware you need to install Mac OS 9 before Mac OS X, and 9 must be on the first partition.

Enjoy

Gaffa.

I don't know anybody who's actually got the beta yet, so I don't know about supported installs, but the system requirements are 128MB of RAM and 1.5 gigs of free HDD space.

IMO, a great question..
Does osxpb have Virtual Screens?
now that would rock all. for me anyways.

[DeathWolf]

First of all, how does OS X deal with newly installed classic apps? Let's say I install photoshop with all of its extensions... will it work under os x? Will the extensions still be availible to me if I choose to uninstall OS X and revert to OS 9? (as in, does it install it in my os 9 folder so that when i revert to it all my classic apps are intact?)
Secondly, let's say I want to play Quake 3 or some other game written for classic.. will it run as quickly under os x as it did on OS 9?
Thirdly, how easy is it to boot off of OS 9 and just keep os x sitting there on my HD, sleeping so that i can use it only when I want to? is there a lot of flexibility or am i forced into starting up with os x each time, only reverting to a pure classic environment by uninstalling? thanks!

[wlonh]

gaffa: NO partitioning is needed for MacOS X 1.0b1

just slap that puppy on your HD... given that you have room, of course

[bkoch]

Hi

Here's my experience with Public Beta:

I installed it on a Firewire PowerBook while travelling back home by train. When I started the installation, the battery indicator of MacOS 9 told me that I had < 2 h left. Using the DVD drive usually uses lots of battery, however, my computer still worked for about 2.5 hours. ---> Speculation: Memory management is really good under OS X. I can confirm that the PowerBook wakes from sleep in about 1 second.

Airport: In DP4, you could setup the built-in Ethernet and the Airport card separately, and Airport worked perfectly. This has been removed in PB and it looks as if you really can't use Airport for now.

Secure shell (ssh) is installed by default, and it seems to be used by the Mail application.

Mouse speed is much better than with DP4.

Problem: I tried to install PB on a Rev A iMac this morning. However, I have not been able to boot from the CD. Switching the computer on and pressing C resulted in the display of the folder with flashing question mark, followed by normal booting from the hard disk. Can somebody help? The firmware is up-to-date on that computer.

[gaffa]

In response to wlonh/RyOSX.

I may be didn't make myself clear.

RyOSX asked if he could install 9 after 10.
I was saying that as far as I am aware it has to be 9 then 10.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Cheers

Gaffa (running out of fuel).

[mikerally]

"Lets just say that you install os x. Is there a way to install os 9 after you put x on?"

From the Public Beta Manual: If you don't have Mac OS 9 installed on your computer already and you want to use Classic applications, install Mac OS 9 before you install Mac OS X.

"1.5 GB elbow room: does anyone have more specific info? Will the installer refuse to do its job on a slightly smaller partition? I reserved a 1.16 GB partition for OS X to install on, and having to repartition would be somewhat cumbersome."

Well, the official recommended disk space is 1.5GB. But you could get away with less. I'd say you'd want more room really anyway.

"I've just bought a iMac DVSE and this is my first experience with System 9. I'm also starting a 6 year old and 8 year old on their first computer. Do you have to know 9 well to get the most out of X or is it worth jumping straight to X as that's what we'll all be using in 12 to 18 month's time?"

Put it like this, when they start using Mac OS X, they will have to learn everything again.

"First of all, how does OS X deal with newly installed classic apps? Let's say I install photoshop with all of its extensions... will it work under os x?"

Photoshop works fine under Classic, I have used it. Also, when you install Mac OS X, it keeps your old Mac OS 9 System Folder, Control Panels, Extensions and all, and uses it for starting up the Classic environment.

"Secondly, let's say I want to play Quake 3 or some other game written for classic.. will it run as quickly under os x as it did on OS 9?"

Yes, Classic Apps run at the same speed. However several games are reporting compatibility problems, when I try to run them, Star Wars Racer for one.

"Thirdly, how easy is it to boot off of OS 9 and just keep os x sitting there on my HD, sleeping so that i can use it only when I want to? is there a lot of flexibility or am i forced into starting up with os x each time"

If you want to do this, you must partition your Hard Disk, and install Mac OS X on the second partition, and keep Mac OS 9 on the first. Then you can switch between OS's as and when you like.

"RyOSX asked if he could install 9 after 10."

It is possible if you install Mac OS X on a second partition, then later when you feel like, you can install Mac OS 9 on the first.

[MadBrowser]

One clarification on the games in Classic...

Currently OpenGL in Classic (and OS X proper) is unoptimzed and much of it is not accelerated.

Currently running games like Q3 and UT in classic will result in disappointing performance.

I would expect Apple to include shims to MacOS X hardware-accelerated OpenGL before final.

It's my understanding from talks with several Apple engineers that virtually none of the graphics layer in OS X is accelerated at this point.